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LT2000 won’t start
#1
J
jerrycmorrow
J
jerrycmorrow
LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
#2
M
mechanic mark
www.briggsandstratton.com
See page 15 in parts manual for carburetor overhaul kit OEM B&S Parts. Post your 8 digit Code Number from engine, thanks, Mark
www.searspartsdirect.com
Follows Code Number.
M
mechanic mark
Results
Official Craftsman 917273760 front-engine lawn tractor parts | Sears PartsDirect
Craftsman 917273760 front-engine lawn tractor parts - manufacturer-approved parts for a proper fit every time! We also have installation guides, diagrams and manuals to help you along the way!
www.searspartsdirect.com
#4
StarTech
https://www.jackssmallengines.com/j...399999-series/31h700-to-31h799/31h777-0297-e1
The date code is needed in case there are parts revisions made over time.
StarTech
The model - type numbers are on the rocker cover along with the date code. These are what you need to look-up the Briggs engine parts.Where on motor is 7 digit code number located not been able to find it
https://www.jackssmallengines.com/j...399999-series/31h700-to-31h799/31h777-0297-e1
The date code is needed in case there are parts revisions made over time.
#5
J
jerrycmorrow
J
jerrycmorrow
model - type - 31H777-0297-E1
Code - 030918ZD
couldn’t see it cause last one had valve cover off put it on upside down. Thanks for y’all’s help
Code - 030918ZD
couldn’t see it cause last one had valve cover off put it on upside down. Thanks for y’all’s help
#7
J
jerrycmorrow
J
jerrycmorrow
This is the valve cover. You can see the code is not within the mentioned range
Attachments
#9
M
mechanic mark
M
mechanic mark
If it is cold in your area & you are using 30wt. engine oil you will have a hard starting issue, switch to 10w30 engine oil. Check spark plug, air & fuel filters for replacement. Always use B&S OEM Parts for your tractor. Adjust valves with engine cold to specs. page 10 in Operators Manual posted above. Intake 0.003-0.005 Exhaust 0.005-0.007.
Watch youtube video below for valve adjustment procedure engine cold. Let us know if this helps, thanks, Mark
Watch youtube video below for valve adjustment procedure engine cold. Let us know if this helps, thanks, Mark
#11
B
BamaBill43
B
BamaBill43
LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
#12
B
BamaBill43
B
BamaBill43
I'd suggest replacing the fuel filter. I had a friend's new Craftsman lawn tractor the had problems. It would cut out after less than a minute. So I tried a new fuel filter. Then it ran just fine. I also do not pour the last of the gas in a gas can into the tank. As it can have a little water and dirt in the bottom.
#13
S
S.A.P.
S
S.A.P.
LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
#14
S
S.A.P.
S
S.A.P.
I see yore get replies like to get a factory kit for yore Chinese Carb.
Makes no sense to me, if yore going to re-built a carburetor, U want to do the original one. The Chinese aftermarket carbs U will see & find, are of slightly different design, therefore yore factory kit won't cure yore Chinese Carb's Problums ! Also sometimes the little ports on a Chinese Job, aren't even drilled out far enough to feed the fuel needed, let alone have any kind of obstruction present. A set of torch tip cleaners works well for cleaning or clearing these ports. If there's something lodged or obstructing the flow, air pressure won't always work, so bear that in mind.
Makes no sense to me, if yore going to re-built a carburetor, U want to do the original one. The Chinese aftermarket carbs U will see & find, are of slightly different design, therefore yore factory kit won't cure yore Chinese Carb's Problums ! Also sometimes the little ports on a Chinese Job, aren't even drilled out far enough to feed the fuel needed, let alone have any kind of obstruction present. A set of torch tip cleaners works well for cleaning or clearing these ports. If there's something lodged or obstructing the flow, air pressure won't always work, so bear that in mind.
#15
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
GEt a can of carb cleaner and squirt a SHORT SHOT down the plug hole & see if it fires
Yes= go to test 3
No = timing is off , magneto stuffed , ignition fault
Test 2
Remove blower housing , remove kill wire on the magneto & try again
Engine fires = ignition fault
Engine does not fire = dead magneto or piston not moving ( poke screwdriver down plug hole to confirm.
Test 3
Spray shot shots of carb cleaner through carb and crank engine, it should start and continues short shots should keep i running.
No start = valve problem , check for dropped push rod
Runs = fuel supply problem
Test 4
slide carb off the engine, turn sideways turn ignition on & blow air through the carb
A fine mist of fuel should come out the other end
No, then remove solenoid, block hole with finger & try again
Fuel mist - faulty solenoid ( or wiring )
No = clogged jets, clean the carb .
Yes= go to test 3
No = timing is off , magneto stuffed , ignition fault
Test 2
Remove blower housing , remove kill wire on the magneto & try again
Engine fires = ignition fault
Engine does not fire = dead magneto or piston not moving ( poke screwdriver down plug hole to confirm.
Test 3
Spray shot shots of carb cleaner through carb and crank engine, it should start and continues short shots should keep i running.
No start = valve problem , check for dropped push rod
Runs = fuel supply problem
Test 4
slide carb off the engine, turn sideways turn ignition on & blow air through the carb
A fine mist of fuel should come out the other end
No, then remove solenoid, block hole with finger & try again
Fuel mist - faulty solenoid ( or wiring )
No = clogged jets, clean the carb .
#16
K
k_damore
K
k_damore
Everyone seems to be jumping on the carb when we don't know the basics. Any spark?, any fuel getting to carb? Did you test compression? At least spray starter fluid in air intake and that would tell you a lot about the above checks.LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
#17
S
Sympolman
S
Sympolman
Not specific to any Craftsman, MTD mower, here's a couple things to check...Make sure you have spark. if you have spark, Hold you hand over the carb and crank it. Is there fuel build up and/or does the engine hit? If you don't see fuel puddled in the carb check the fuel pump and the pulse or vacuum/pulse hose that feeds the fuel pump. Also inspect fuel lines. Check the fuel shutoff solenoid. The solenoid can be controlled by safety switches. You can provide 12v directly to open it. I don't recommend trying to bypass or modify it.
For trouble shooting only I use a small amount of ether (NOT a lot because you can do damage and don't run the motor on ether). If it hits, You know your chasing a fuel problem, If it doesn't, your looking for a spark or electrical problem. Those little 4 or 5 inch pulse hoses that feed the fuel pump go bad by cracking at either the valve cover or the pump Here is a link on Amazon but verify your specific part number (There are variations.) It's not a matter of if they will fail but when...
For trouble shooting only I use a small amount of ether (NOT a lot because you can do damage and don't run the motor on ether). If it hits, You know your chasing a fuel problem, If it doesn't, your looking for a spark or electrical problem. Those little 4 or 5 inch pulse hoses that feed the fuel pump go bad by cracking at either the valve cover or the pump Here is a link on Amazon but verify your specific part number (There are variations.) It's not a matter of if they will fail but when...
#18
S
Sympolman
S
Sympolman
Here is an older link to amazon for the part numbers and to show the pulse lines. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09JMZ6JM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1Not specific to any Craftsman, MTD mower, here's a couple things to check...Make sure you have spark. if you have spark, Hold you hand over the carb and crank it. Is there fuel build up and/or does the engine hit? If you don't see fuel puddled in the carb check the fuel pump and the pulse or vacuum/pulse hose that feeds the fuel pump. Also inspect fuel lines. Check the fuel shutoff solenoid. The solenoid can be controlled by safety switches. You can provide 12v directly to open it. I don't recommend trying to bypass or modify it.
For trouble shooting only I use a small amount of ether (NOT a lot because you can do damage and don't run the motor on ether). If it hits, You know your chasing a fuel problem, If it doesn't, your looking for a spark or electrical problem. Those little 4 or 5 inch pulse hoses that feed the fuel pump go bad by cracking at either the valve cover or the pump Here is a link on Amazon but verify your specific part number (There are variations.) It's not a matter of if they will fail but when...
#19
K
kjonxx
K
kjonxx
If you have the stop solenoid on bottom of carb, It may be defective closing of the gas. If so remove it and take off the end. If you have no fuel pump then put in gas shutoff valve. This is providing all else (spark, valves, etc) are good.
#20
T
The Road Warrior
T
The Road Warrior
This B&S engine model is the manufacturer’s cruel joke played on US consumers. I scrap on average a dozen of these annually, mainly for compression relief issues however, it can be repurposed as a great boat anchor.
#21
mechanizm
mechanizm
the first thing you do is squirt some gas down the throttle body to see if it thumps. If so, it's likely a cold fuel pump vacuum line not sealing, allowing air in keeping it from working. spray the hose connections with a little oil/gas mix to seal them, then squirt some starting fluid in the carb. that should do it.LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
#22
L
LMPPLUS
L
LMPPLUS
Jerry don't waste your money on a carb kit until you know you need it, that engine by the code date should have a Walbro carb., but double check and make sure it's not the Nikki. Also spray some starting fluid or Deep Creep into the intake and see if it will start, if not it may not be a fuel issue and could be spark.This is the valve cover. You can see the code is not within the mentioned range
#24
J
jabCaudills
J
jabCaudills
If you have a gravity-fed fuel system, you will want a filter with 75 micron rating down to maybe 30 or 50 microns. (The smaller that number, the more it filters (i.e. restricts) fuel flow...) The red Briggs filter is 150 microns. The white Briggs filter is 75 microns. When you get a see-through filter, anticipate it is 30 microns, but it could be less or more...)
Still, 30 seconds is not a lot of time, and it is probably carb-related. (Not enough time to heat up a coil to the point of failure... in my short experience.)
We use Seafoam with a lot of success. It sometimes takes 24 hours to work, but other times immediate or 1-2 hours... The Seafoam has to get to the carburetor to be effective, so dump the bowl and fuel-line to get to treated fuel... (We use more than the instructions say in very the short-term.)
Bad fuel (i.e. with dirt) can clog a fuel jet, so use a wire to clear the jet by removing the carb-bowl and cleaning the opening/jet.
Still, 30 seconds is not a lot of time, and it is probably carb-related. (Not enough time to heat up a coil to the point of failure... in my short experience.)
We use Seafoam with a lot of success. It sometimes takes 24 hours to work, but other times immediate or 1-2 hours... The Seafoam has to get to the carburetor to be effective, so dump the bowl and fuel-line to get to treated fuel... (We use more than the instructions say in very the short-term.)
Bad fuel (i.e. with dirt) can clog a fuel jet, so use a wire to clear the jet by removing the carb-bowl and cleaning the opening/jet.
#25
chuckpen
chuckpen
Instead of loading the parts cannon up, troubleshooting is the path.
Others have said, but;
good compression?
good spark?
Spray carb cleaner into carb "throat" just a small squirt, close choke and try to start. trys to start, then you have a fuel delivery problem, no start then you have spark or timing problem, maybe valve adjustment.
From your description my guess is you have water in your gas or what ever killed the original briggs carb killed this one as well (plugged up with crud from gas tank.). drain you gas and see what it looks like (if you have good spark and good compression) although sitting outside it is likely there is water condensation.
the anti backfire valve is also a good suggestion if your engine has one. screws into the bottom of the carb. Unscrew that and see if it is free and apply 12 volts to it and watch that the plunger actually moves (will pull back into body of valve.
Others have said, but;
good compression?
good spark?
Spray carb cleaner into carb "throat" just a small squirt, close choke and try to start. trys to start, then you have a fuel delivery problem, no start then you have spark or timing problem, maybe valve adjustment.
From your description my guess is you have water in your gas or what ever killed the original briggs carb killed this one as well (plugged up with crud from gas tank.). drain you gas and see what it looks like (if you have good spark and good compression) although sitting outside it is likely there is water condensation.
the anti backfire valve is also a good suggestion if your engine has one. screws into the bottom of the carb. Unscrew that and see if it is free and apply 12 volts to it and watch that the plunger actually moves (will pull back into body of valve.
#26
T
Tom O'
T
Tom O'
The change in temperature from summer to winter may have altered an efficient fuel to air mix. You may need to tweak the settings via the screw adjustments on the carberateur- if applicable.LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
#27
G
Gord Baker
G
Gord Baker
I suggest just Change to a new plug and be sure the coil wire is producing a bright spark when plugged in and grounded.
Be sure the fuel valve is turned ON. Try Starting Fluid. If it starts, you have Ignition now you need Fuel.
Needle valve or electric fuel shutoff may be stuck or inoperative. Good Luck.
Be sure the fuel valve is turned ON. Try Starting Fluid. If it starts, you have Ignition now you need Fuel.
Needle valve or electric fuel shutoff may be stuck or inoperative. Good Luck.
#28
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
As several others of the good troubleshooters have said, always start with giving it an external fuel source by squirting carb cleaner or some gas into the carb hole in the intake to see if it will then run for a few seconds on the fuel you have provided.
This is what you do on any of these engines that will crank and sound normal cranking speed but will not run.
It's pointless to do anything else first because this is a high probability the problem anyways and the old method of pulling out the spark plug or putting a new plug in is usually just a waste of time.
I did specify if they crank over normal speed and sound normal on cracking but just won't start because if you have one that's not cranking or cranking and then like it's hitting and bouncing off a rubber band wall... I know it's a weird description but it makes sense to me..
Then it's usually going to be an ACR, automatic compressor relief which means it will need a new camshaft to fix the problem or it's something in the valve train most commonly a loose rocker arm stud which more than not causes a push rod to bend and use the intake since it is aluminum but occasionally you will find a slipped valve guide which causes similar valve train issues and almost always a hard or weird irregular crank.
Now if you have a very fast Crank that seems too easy it's probably a popped valve seat so you have no compression.
Regardless, you start by giving it a fuel source first like a 1 to 1.5 second blast of carb cleaner and the carb hole under the air filter and crank it with the choke turned off because it's not necessary at this point.
If it doesn't start and run after two or three attempts at that then and only then is it time to pull out the spark plug because at this point you can check for spark, check for compression, and even put your finger in the hole and crank it over a few times to see if it only goes puff puff puff puff.
That means you have compression and the valves are probably working. If you get a non-operative intake valve which is common due to the bent push rod issue mentioned before, it will not just blow blow blow blow your finger out of the hole, it will blow but then it will try to suck your finger back in the hole. It should never try to suck your finger into the spark plug hole.
This is what you do on any of these engines that will crank and sound normal cranking speed but will not run.
It's pointless to do anything else first because this is a high probability the problem anyways and the old method of pulling out the spark plug or putting a new plug in is usually just a waste of time.
I did specify if they crank over normal speed and sound normal on cracking but just won't start because if you have one that's not cranking or cranking and then like it's hitting and bouncing off a rubber band wall... I know it's a weird description but it makes sense to me..
Then it's usually going to be an ACR, automatic compressor relief which means it will need a new camshaft to fix the problem or it's something in the valve train most commonly a loose rocker arm stud which more than not causes a push rod to bend and use the intake since it is aluminum but occasionally you will find a slipped valve guide which causes similar valve train issues and almost always a hard or weird irregular crank.
Now if you have a very fast Crank that seems too easy it's probably a popped valve seat so you have no compression.
Regardless, you start by giving it a fuel source first like a 1 to 1.5 second blast of carb cleaner and the carb hole under the air filter and crank it with the choke turned off because it's not necessary at this point.
If it doesn't start and run after two or three attempts at that then and only then is it time to pull out the spark plug because at this point you can check for spark, check for compression, and even put your finger in the hole and crank it over a few times to see if it only goes puff puff puff puff.
That means you have compression and the valves are probably working. If you get a non-operative intake valve which is common due to the bent push rod issue mentioned before, it will not just blow blow blow blow your finger out of the hole, it will blow but then it will try to suck your finger back in the hole. It should never try to suck your finger into the spark plug hole.
#30
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Like others have mentioned to do, one of the very first things I do with a no-start is squirt carb clean into the carb and see if it'll fire. If it does, then that eliminates everything else, & I know to focus on a fuel issue.
If you indeed have a fuel problem, drain some off the bottom of the tank into a clear glass or clear plastic container and look for water or separated ethanol settled on the bottom. If you see any of that, dump that fuel, spray out the tank and line with carb or brake clean, throw a new fuel filter on there, and add fresh fuel. You'll probably want to disassemble and clean the carb, too.
If the starter struggles to get the engine past the compression stroke, a valve adjustment is needed. You should hear the starter load up while cranking the engine - just not excessively. Light loading suggests low compression that'll need to be investigated. Just listen to what the starter is telling you. If you suspect it's low, throw a compression or leakdown tester on and see what you've got.
I've used plenty of chinese carbs over the years. Most of them actually work pretty good. Just don't expect them to hold up to any kind of moisture in the bowl. Their metals SUCK. The carbs themselves are also hit or miss. I've had good luck with them over the years, but every now and then you'll get a bad one ... or a string of bad ones. Quality control is nonexistent ... but the same can be said for ANYTHING you buy today, cars & trucks included.
If you indeed have a fuel problem, drain some off the bottom of the tank into a clear glass or clear plastic container and look for water or separated ethanol settled on the bottom. If you see any of that, dump that fuel, spray out the tank and line with carb or brake clean, throw a new fuel filter on there, and add fresh fuel. You'll probably want to disassemble and clean the carb, too.
If the starter struggles to get the engine past the compression stroke, a valve adjustment is needed. You should hear the starter load up while cranking the engine - just not excessively. Light loading suggests low compression that'll need to be investigated. Just listen to what the starter is telling you. If you suspect it's low, throw a compression or leakdown tester on and see what you've got.
I've used plenty of chinese carbs over the years. Most of them actually work pretty good. Just don't expect them to hold up to any kind of moisture in the bowl. Their metals SUCK. The carbs themselves are also hit or miss. I've had good luck with them over the years, but every now and then you'll get a bad one ... or a string of bad ones. Quality control is nonexistent ... but the same can be said for ANYTHING you buy today, cars & trucks included.
#31
S
S.A.P.
It must have spark, or it would not have run for the 30 seconds.
It's not getting fuel.
If it has a spark, compression, and fuel, it should run.
It certainly sounds like a fuel obstruction.
What have U learned ?
Did the mice build a nest in the flywheel that shut the fuel off ?
What have U learned ?
Did U clean all of the orifices in the carb, and jets ?
What have U learned ?
It sounds like a restriction in the fuel supply. It gets enough to run 30 seconds, and then dies.
What have U learned ?
If U have the bowl off of the carb, do U have fuel, freely flowing past the needle valve to supply the needed fuel ?
What have U learned ?
Can U feed it fuel, gravity feed the carb ? Will it run then ?
HMMM ...
WHAT HAVE U LEARNED ?
HMMM ...
GEE IT'S HARD TO HELP, IF U DON'T LEARN ANYTHING ...
S
S.A.P.
What have U learned ?LT2000, type 917273760, Engine - 31H777-0297-E1
Went to run it and started and ran for about 30 seconds. Installed new Chinese carb last year and ran great all summer. Suspected condensation so took carb off and drained, cleaned with carb cleaner, dried with compressed air, reinstalled, put new fuel. No start
I’m being a little lazy plus my mower is stored outside, under cover, and it’s too cold to work on it unless I can zero in on the problem. Anyone can help?
It must have spark, or it would not have run for the 30 seconds.
It's not getting fuel.
If it has a spark, compression, and fuel, it should run.
It certainly sounds like a fuel obstruction.
What have U learned ?
Did the mice build a nest in the flywheel that shut the fuel off ?
What have U learned ?
Did U clean all of the orifices in the carb, and jets ?
What have U learned ?
It sounds like a restriction in the fuel supply. It gets enough to run 30 seconds, and then dies.
What have U learned ?
If U have the bowl off of the carb, do U have fuel, freely flowing past the needle valve to supply the needed fuel ?
What have U learned ?
Can U feed it fuel, gravity feed the carb ? Will it run then ?
HMMM ...
WHAT HAVE U LEARNED ?
HMMM ...
GEE IT'S HARD TO HELP, IF U DON'T LEARN ANYTHING ...
#32
T
timcapps
T
timcapps
Since it's cold, you may want to try (if you haven't already) the simple solutions before you tear into the carb/engine. Spray starter fluid into the air intake while cranking it. If you don't have starter fluid, take the plug out and pour a teaspoon of gas in. I had to do that to get my snowblower to start 2 weeks ago because it was very cold.
#33
S
S.A.P.
S
S.A.P.
He knows it will start and fire.
It will run for 30 seconds he says.
If he can dump a teaspoon full of gas in it every 30 seconds it will probably run, but I doubt he can get the sparkplug in and out that fast ...
It will run for 30 seconds he says.
If he can dump a teaspoon full of gas in it every 30 seconds it will probably run, but I doubt he can get the sparkplug in and out that fast ...
#34
B
bertsmobile1
He said it starter, ran for 30 seconds then stopped.
No mention of weather it does this repeatidly .
So a proper diagnosis would start at square 1 .
B
bertsmobile1
No.He knows it will start and fire.
It will run for 30 seconds he says.
If he can dump a teaspoon full of gas in it every 30 seconds it will probably run, but I doubt he can get the sparkplug in and out that fast ...
He said it starter, ran for 30 seconds then stopped.
No mention of weather it does this repeatidly .
So a proper diagnosis would start at square 1 .
#35
S
S.A.P.
S
S.A.P.
So to start then :
One might proceed like this :
# 1 gravity feed the carburetor with clean gasoline.
It runs ? Fine !
It don't ?
# 2 check the flow into the carb thru the needle valve.
Had fuel ? Fine !
No fuel ?
# 3 Remove obstruction !
It runs ? Fine !
It don't run ?
# 4 fuel shutoff solenoid ?
It works ? Fine !
It don't ?
# 5 repair replace solenoid
It runs ?
It don't ?
# 6 repair internal carb issues, clean jets, orifices, needle, seat, use a bread wire or torch tip cleaner. These are tiny ports, so find thum, and clean and inspect carefully. U may be overlooking something.
Note :
If U have spark, compression, and fuel, U have all of the things needed.
U can use a spray bottle to mist gasoline into the carburetor to keep it running. But yore issue seems to be carburetion or fuel pump type problum. If it runs while U mist gas into it, but dies when U quit, U have an issue to deal with.
U can remove the plug, and roll the engine with the fuel line removed from the carburetor to see if the fuel pump is working, using a catch pail, if U desire.
I for one, don't know what U have done, or are doing. We're trying to help, but communication is key, in order to help diagnose the problum.
One might proceed like this :
# 1 gravity feed the carburetor with clean gasoline.
It runs ? Fine !
It don't ?
# 2 check the flow into the carb thru the needle valve.
Had fuel ? Fine !
No fuel ?
# 3 Remove obstruction !
It runs ? Fine !
It don't run ?
# 4 fuel shutoff solenoid ?
It works ? Fine !
It don't ?
# 5 repair replace solenoid
It runs ?
It don't ?
# 6 repair internal carb issues, clean jets, orifices, needle, seat, use a bread wire or torch tip cleaner. These are tiny ports, so find thum, and clean and inspect carefully. U may be overlooking something.
Note :
If U have spark, compression, and fuel, U have all of the things needed.
U can use a spray bottle to mist gasoline into the carburetor to keep it running. But yore issue seems to be carburetion or fuel pump type problum. If it runs while U mist gas into it, but dies when U quit, U have an issue to deal with.
U can remove the plug, and roll the engine with the fuel line removed from the carburetor to see if the fuel pump is working, using a catch pail, if U desire.
I for one, don't know what U have done, or are doing. We're trying to help, but communication is key, in order to help diagnose the problum.
#36
T
TobyU
When you're dealing with anything with a four horsepower or larger lawn mower style engine '99.5% of the time it is not the plug and another plug is not going to solve the problem.
In the few situations that it may occur a new plug is normally not necessary as all you're doing by putting the new plug in is providing a dry non-filed out plug. You could simply take the old plug out and wipe it off or blow it off or burn off the fuel with a lighter for three or four seconds and end up with the same results.
Probably at least nine times out of 10 when these larger engines won't start and run they're not getting enough fuel. Very rarely do they get too much. Even when they do get too much if you simply turn the choke off on the ones where you can do that with a lever or reach your finger down and open the choke via it's linkage and crank it a few times it will typically fire right up. The small two-stroke engines and the four-stroke versions of them typically will not do this.
T
TobyU
He will typically only find this on handheld blowers and string trimmers etc.Had a blower same thing, put a new spark plug in 2 pulls runs great.
When you're dealing with anything with a four horsepower or larger lawn mower style engine '99.5% of the time it is not the plug and another plug is not going to solve the problem.
In the few situations that it may occur a new plug is normally not necessary as all you're doing by putting the new plug in is providing a dry non-filed out plug. You could simply take the old plug out and wipe it off or blow it off or burn off the fuel with a lighter for three or four seconds and end up with the same results.
Probably at least nine times out of 10 when these larger engines won't start and run they're not getting enough fuel. Very rarely do they get too much. Even when they do get too much if you simply turn the choke off on the ones where you can do that with a lever or reach your finger down and open the choke via it's linkage and crank it a few times it will typically fire right up. The small two-stroke engines and the four-stroke versions of them typically will not do this.
#37
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
In the past 14 years of wrenching on this stuff full time, only ONE time was a bad plug causing a no-spark condition. Plug quality is pretty good today.
#38
S
S.A.P.
After taking the plug out 3 or 4 times, checking the gap and spark from the plug, I became quite befuddled. Finally the last time I was looking at the bottom of the plug, I discovered that the porcelain was loose in the steel head of the plug and was moving up and down. Each time I had spun the engine to start it, the contacts were separating so as to change the gap, (too far apart) under the compression stroke causing the plug not to fire. I have not trusted Champions for a long time now. I bought 8 new ones for my Old 89 Chevy Silverado years ago, and had a cylinder that wasn't firing as one of the 7 plugs was junk. I had put new wires, cap, rotor, and other hardware on the truck. Lots of stores sell a cheap sparkplug, that would be a cull to a regular auto parts store. Farm & Fleet is where I got the plugs for 99¢ a piece. Other cheap ignition parts I bought there failed early too !
"Wells Ignition Products" is what they sold, and I will never buy them again either. I don't try to save money by using cheap plugs or ignition parts anymore.
U get sometimes what U pay for, and the trouble out on the road or doing work with a machine, costs a person a lot of time, grief, and even money, to diagnose problums, caused by failure.
S
S.A.P.
I rebuilt an old cast iron single cylinder Briggs years ago and bought a brand new Champion Spark Plug to put in it. I tried to start the engine and it wouldn't fire, yet each time I tested the spark from the coil it was good and strong, jumping half an inch as I pulled it away from ground.In the past 14 years of wrenching on this stuff full time, only ONE time was a bad plug causing a no-spark condition. Plug quality is pretty good today.
After taking the plug out 3 or 4 times, checking the gap and spark from the plug, I became quite befuddled. Finally the last time I was looking at the bottom of the plug, I discovered that the porcelain was loose in the steel head of the plug and was moving up and down. Each time I had spun the engine to start it, the contacts were separating so as to change the gap, (too far apart) under the compression stroke causing the plug not to fire. I have not trusted Champions for a long time now. I bought 8 new ones for my Old 89 Chevy Silverado years ago, and had a cylinder that wasn't firing as one of the 7 plugs was junk. I had put new wires, cap, rotor, and other hardware on the truck. Lots of stores sell a cheap sparkplug, that would be a cull to a regular auto parts store. Farm & Fleet is where I got the plugs for 99¢ a piece. Other cheap ignition parts I bought there failed early too !
"Wells Ignition Products" is what they sold, and I will never buy them again either. I don't try to save money by using cheap plugs or ignition parts anymore.
U get sometimes what U pay for, and the trouble out on the road or doing work with a machine, costs a person a lot of time, grief, and even money, to diagnose problums, caused by failure.
#40
StarTech
Different OEM plugs have different inherit problems. Then there are the ones that have been dropped a few times before you get them. NGK plugs are normal fairly reliable except for the little 10mm ones. Those CMR ones have numerous failures here. Here I never assume a new plug is good until it is known good.
The plugs I have the best luck with are the Bosch and NGK plugs. Then it goes downhill from there. Besides I get them for about the same as the Champion plugs so I only stock them.
StarTech
You been lucky. I replaced nearly a dozen plugs last year for not firing under compression load. One customer swore the plug was good just because it would spark out of the engine until I replaced it and the engine ran. Matter of fact I got a Chuck Wagon on the yard awaiting a plug this week. I just didn't have the correct plug in stock.In the past 14 years of wrenching on this stuff full time, only ONE time was a bad plug causing a no-spark condition. Plug quality is pretty good today.
Different OEM plugs have different inherit problems. Then there are the ones that have been dropped a few times before you get them. NGK plugs are normal fairly reliable except for the little 10mm ones. Those CMR ones have numerous failures here. Here I never assume a new plug is good until it is known good.
The plugs I have the best luck with are the Bosch and NGK plugs. Then it goes downhill from there. Besides I get them for about the same as the Champion plugs so I only stock them.
#41
T
TobyU
They were available under $2 up until a short time ago until prices started to go up.
I'm not against all the lights either if I get them for the same price but for lawn mowers you simply don't need anything any better than a champion even if something else might be better.
I will say I still prefer them to NGK even though an NGK may start a tad bit easier and maybe run a little bit better but I doubt the average human ear could actually tell these things...
what I will say about NGK is when one of them decides to go, and there's no warning or rhyme and reason, it just goes. I have had a handful of the ngks since doing thousands of mowers commercially that either wouldn't fire when they were fine just days before, or more commonly would start and run for just a few seconds typically about 15 to 45 seconds and then just die or often die with a loud pop.
I've even had two or three Hondas that would pop so hard where they would blow the air filter cover off when they would backfire and then would not start again and it was 100% the plug.
I've never seen a champion do this.
Now as far as your first situation with a damaged plug, more than likely that plug was dropped sometime in its life.
We must remember that once a plug is dropped it is no longer perfect even if it was at one time. Once they plug is dropped it's life can be shortened or it can instantly be no good anymore..
A plug can be dropped after it's already in its box or it can happen in the factory before it even goes into the box or at the parts store when someone is looking at it at the parts counter to determine if it matches the one they're looking for.
But overall, as I said, people are wasting a lot of time when the first thing they go to on a no start or running condition is the spark plug!
Spark plug quality control is actually one of the few things that's really up over the past two to three decades probably due to automation and there's not a whole lot of delicate parts or super high quality materials that are touchy or that can fail.
Then you had the fact that plugs simply don't get found out like they used to because everything just designed and forced by the EPA to use as little gas as possible so it's not like they're typically going to get too much fuel.
It's hard just to keep them getting enough.
T
TobyU
Wow I have never actually liked champion plugs for any automobiles other than possibly a Jeep or a Dodge because that's what came in them Factory and they seem to do okay but I would still rather see another brand in those also...they have proved to be simply the Best and the cheapest over the past couple of decades of doing lawn mowers professionally and commercially.I rebuilt an old cast iron single cylinder Briggs years ago and bought a brand new Champion Spark Plug to put in it. I tried to start the engine and it wouldn't fire, yet each time I tested the spark from the coil it was good and strong, jumping half an inch as I pulled it away from ground.
After taking the plug out 3 or 4 times, checking the gap and spark from the plug, I became quite befuddled. Finally the last time I was looking at the bottom of the plug, I discovered that the porcelain was loose in the steel head of the plug and was moving up and down. Each time I had spun the engine to start it, the contacts were separating so as to change the gap, (too far apart) under the compression stroke causing the plug not to fire. I have not trusted Champions for a long time now. I bought 8 new ones for my Old 89 Chevy Silverado years ago, and had a cylinder that wasn't firing as one of the 7 plugs was junk. I had put new wires, cap, rotor, and other hardware on the truck. Lots of stores sell a cheap sparkplug, that would be a cull to a regular auto parts store. Farm & Fleet is where I got the plugs for 99¢ a piece. Other cheap ignition parts I bought there failed early too !
"Wells Ignition Products" is what they sold, and I will never buy them again either. I don't try to save money by using cheap plugs or ignition parts anymore.
U get sometimes what U pay for, and the trouble out on the road or doing work with a machine, costs a person a lot of time, grief, and even money, to diagnose problums, caused by failure.
They were available under $2 up until a short time ago until prices started to go up.
I'm not against all the lights either if I get them for the same price but for lawn mowers you simply don't need anything any better than a champion even if something else might be better.
I will say I still prefer them to NGK even though an NGK may start a tad bit easier and maybe run a little bit better but I doubt the average human ear could actually tell these things...
what I will say about NGK is when one of them decides to go, and there's no warning or rhyme and reason, it just goes. I have had a handful of the ngks since doing thousands of mowers commercially that either wouldn't fire when they were fine just days before, or more commonly would start and run for just a few seconds typically about 15 to 45 seconds and then just die or often die with a loud pop.
I've even had two or three Hondas that would pop so hard where they would blow the air filter cover off when they would backfire and then would not start again and it was 100% the plug.
I've never seen a champion do this.
Now as far as your first situation with a damaged plug, more than likely that plug was dropped sometime in its life.
We must remember that once a plug is dropped it is no longer perfect even if it was at one time. Once they plug is dropped it's life can be shortened or it can instantly be no good anymore..
A plug can be dropped after it's already in its box or it can happen in the factory before it even goes into the box or at the parts store when someone is looking at it at the parts counter to determine if it matches the one they're looking for.
But overall, as I said, people are wasting a lot of time when the first thing they go to on a no start or running condition is the spark plug!
Spark plug quality control is actually one of the few things that's really up over the past two to three decades probably due to automation and there's not a whole lot of delicate parts or super high quality materials that are touchy or that can fail.
Then you had the fact that plugs simply don't get found out like they used to because everything just designed and forced by the EPA to use as little gas as possible so it's not like they're typically going to get too much fuel.
It's hard just to keep them getting enough.
#42
T
TobyU
I agree that you never trust a plug 100% until you see it fire and even then you don't trust it 100%, so you don't trust it 100% until you see it run and if you have a concern about spark you always try another known good or one you're almost 100% certain is good.
My point is always that 99% of the time when an engine that won't start a run properly and people go for the plug, they are simply wasting their time because it's highly more likely to be fuel than spark.
I do thousands of these things and as far as no start skill I've done the math on it and it pans out to be about one bad plug in every 450 no starts.
That's an awfully low number.
I also think that NGK are some of the higher quality plugs and not that the average human ear can tell but I think if you were to scientifically test and engine with an NGK versus a champion you would see it start a little bit easier and run just a little bit better than a champion but as I said I don't think the average person can tell a difference.
What I have seen a small number of times but enough to see the pattern is an NGK plug that was just fine yesterday or last week that either no longer starts and runs or the most common thing I've seen will run for just a few seconds and then die or pop as it dies.
Same two or three Hondas blow the air filter cover off when it does this and it was repeatable!
I've never seen this occur with a champion..
I have also never had any problems with Auto lights. I used to use a lot of Auto lights in the 80s and early 90s but not necessarily for lawn mowers and never had a problem. That whole conglomeration company fram, autolite, bendix, signal etc was a lot better in the day and recently I've heard a lot of people who either don't like autolite or simply love to hate them.
I have had no personal problems with anything autolite and from working on cars which you know have at least four spark plugs at a time and often 8 I have only had two bad spark plugs or two spark plugs that went bad after thousands of miles of being good in the past 18 years.
I don't recall ever having a plug go bad prior to 18 years ago as they were simply being changed because it was time and the vehicle was getting a tune-up with plugs and wires etc.
T
TobyU
Wow! 12 plugs in a season. That's almost unbelievable to me.You been lucky. I replaced nearly a dozen plugs last year for not firing under compression load. One customer swore the plug was good just because it would spark out of the engine until I replaced it and the engine ran. Matter of fact I got a Chuck Wagon on the yard awaiting a plug this week. I just didn't have the correct plug in stock.
Different OEM plugs have different inherit problems. Then there are the ones that have been dropped a few times before you get them. NGK plugs are normal fairly reliable except for the little 10mm ones. Those CMR ones have numerous failures here. Here I never assume a new plug is good until it is known good.
The plugs I have the best luck with are the Bosch and NGK plugs. Then it goes downhill from there. Besides I get them for about the same as the Champion plugs so I only stock them.
I agree that you never trust a plug 100% until you see it fire and even then you don't trust it 100%, so you don't trust it 100% until you see it run and if you have a concern about spark you always try another known good or one you're almost 100% certain is good.
My point is always that 99% of the time when an engine that won't start a run properly and people go for the plug, they are simply wasting their time because it's highly more likely to be fuel than spark.
I do thousands of these things and as far as no start skill I've done the math on it and it pans out to be about one bad plug in every 450 no starts.
That's an awfully low number.
I also think that NGK are some of the higher quality plugs and not that the average human ear can tell but I think if you were to scientifically test and engine with an NGK versus a champion you would see it start a little bit easier and run just a little bit better than a champion but as I said I don't think the average person can tell a difference.
What I have seen a small number of times but enough to see the pattern is an NGK plug that was just fine yesterday or last week that either no longer starts and runs or the most common thing I've seen will run for just a few seconds and then die or pop as it dies.
Same two or three Hondas blow the air filter cover off when it does this and it was repeatable!
I've never seen this occur with a champion..
I have also never had any problems with Auto lights. I used to use a lot of Auto lights in the 80s and early 90s but not necessarily for lawn mowers and never had a problem. That whole conglomeration company fram, autolite, bendix, signal etc was a lot better in the day and recently I've heard a lot of people who either don't like autolite or simply love to hate them.
I have had no personal problems with anything autolite and from working on cars which you know have at least four spark plugs at a time and often 8 I have only had two bad spark plugs or two spark plugs that went bad after thousands of miles of being good in the past 18 years.
I don't recall ever having a plug go bad prior to 18 years ago as they were simply being changed because it was time and the vehicle was getting a tune-up with plugs and wires etc.
#43
StarTech
StarTech
Yes a lot plugs get changed that are not bad. That why diagnostics were important to done. It saves a lot time and money when done. Guessing at a problem can be very costly in the long run.
This is why I recommend doing the non invasive tests first. Yes the upfront of test equipment can be a problem for the DIYer where a shop can quickly recover it in time saved. One of the best diagnostic tools people have is between their ears if they just use it instead letting it collect dust bunnies.
This is why I recommend doing the non invasive tests first. Yes the upfront of test equipment can be a problem for the DIYer where a shop can quickly recover it in time saved. One of the best diagnostic tools people have is between their ears if they just use it instead letting it collect dust bunnies.
#44
T
TobyU
The sad part is usually by the second or third part they throw at it they luck out and get the car running properly and they still save more money than going to the garage so it reinforces they're terrible behavior and they do it again in the future.
Never replace anything unless you are almost absolutely certain that it is bad. If you're a train tech or even better, have lots and lots of experience, then it's almost never a place anything unless you are 100% certain it's bad.
It's just with the small engine troubleshooting people drive me nuts with not taking the time to actually understand how they work and what they need to work. Of course a lot of this is because they've never had anybody actually explain it to them simply. They end up online or some stupid YouTube video and it's just more overwhelming and too complicated for them so they really don't grasp it
I simply tell people that in today's age of mowers and those for the past 20 years, the most likely problem like 85 plus percent of the time is that it's not getting fuel or not getting enough fuel
So the easiest way to speed up your diagnostic procedure anytime you have a mower in front of you where you don't know the history is after you pull the rope a couple of times and see that everything feels and sounds okay there it simply just won't start....
Pop off the air filter and give it an external fuel source like a 1 second squirt of carb spray cleaner into the carburetor intake hole.
I guess I should note that it's best if you make sure you put your little plastic straw tube in there far enough to go past the choke plate or even open the choke plate with your finger or a tiny screwdriver so you're really getting your external fuel source carb spray in past the carburetor so it can easily get sucked into the engine.
Then, leave the air filter and it's cover off and pull the rope for a five more times to see if it starts and runs for a few seconds.
If it does great! You now know the engine is mechanically sound and all you need to do is get it to flow fuel.
Wait! I did this intentionally but we forgot to do one thing.
When America comes into you and you've pulled the rope a few times and it does not start actually the first thing you should do is check the gas tank!!
If you do this long enough you will have mowers come in where the customer says they can't get them to start and in my creature of habit method I just spray some carb spray in there and then they run for 2 seconds and die but if you look into the gas tank they're dry as a bone.
Sometimes people will actually run a lawn mower out of fuel but forget they did it and when they get it back out to try it they will forget to check and add fresh gas.
Have had a number of them come in that had absolutely nothing wrong with them they just needed some gas put into the tank
To those people's benefit though, most of the time they have been sent in for an annual service or what people sadly often referred to as a tune-up. I refuse to use that word even though many / most lawn mower shops and techs will use it.
I call tune up an evil word that cost people lots of money. Lol
So I will back up and give the best overall troubleshooting procedure.
Better not familiar more comes your Way step one and always the most important
MAKE SURE IT HAS OIL IN THE CRANKCASE!
People will bring you mowers that have absolutely no oil in them or are too dangerous to start because of their low levels or those that have been moved and had the oil poured out of them and never refilled.
So I never pull the rope on any lawn mower or crank a rider without checking the oil first.
Then you check the gas tank to see if there's fuel in it.
This also gives you the chance to look around for any moisture or floaty things in there.
Now you pull it a few times and see that it doesn't start and then you pop off the air filter and give it a squirt in the throat with the carb cleaner.
85% of the time maybe closer to 90% this tells you all you need to know.
Occasionally you will find one that has an air filter so clogged that's the only reason it won't run but luckily as you pull the air filter off to give it external fuel source test you will spot this.
Two birds with one stone kind of thing.
So then, if the mower is simply there for a no start, you clean out the carb by whichever means your accustomed to or you do it the way I feel should not be done and put a new carburetor on there and it's ready to go.
Note that you should also flush some fresh gas through the gas tank and fuel lines and I feel every lawn mower up with fresh stabilized fuel before it leaves.
I don't believe in replacing carburetors when it's possible to clean out the old one or replace needle and seats or floats etc and I don't believe in removing carburetors when you can do everything that needs to be done on the machine.
You can't always do this but 90% of the time you can.
You have to work a little harder as in sneaking your fingers underneath the bottom of the bowl and stuff like that but the amount of time is much shorter.
So in my situation it's better to work harder for a shorter period of time which makes me far more efficient and gets me on to the next more because I have never ending supply of them that I'm behind in doing.
T
TobyU
Exactly! Too many people just throw Parts at them hoping to get it right. They've been doing this with cars for decades too.Yes a lot plugs get changed that are not bad. That why diagnostics were important to done. It saves a lot time and money when done. Guessing at a problem can be very costly in the long run.
This is why I recommend doing the non invasive tests first. Yes the upfront of test equipment can be a problem for the DIYer where a shop can quickly recover it in time saved. One of the best diagnostic tools people have is between their ears if they just use it instead letting it collect dust bunnies.
The sad part is usually by the second or third part they throw at it they luck out and get the car running properly and they still save more money than going to the garage so it reinforces they're terrible behavior and they do it again in the future.
Never replace anything unless you are almost absolutely certain that it is bad. If you're a train tech or even better, have lots and lots of experience, then it's almost never a place anything unless you are 100% certain it's bad.
It's just with the small engine troubleshooting people drive me nuts with not taking the time to actually understand how they work and what they need to work. Of course a lot of this is because they've never had anybody actually explain it to them simply. They end up online or some stupid YouTube video and it's just more overwhelming and too complicated for them so they really don't grasp it
I simply tell people that in today's age of mowers and those for the past 20 years, the most likely problem like 85 plus percent of the time is that it's not getting fuel or not getting enough fuel
So the easiest way to speed up your diagnostic procedure anytime you have a mower in front of you where you don't know the history is after you pull the rope a couple of times and see that everything feels and sounds okay there it simply just won't start....
Pop off the air filter and give it an external fuel source like a 1 second squirt of carb spray cleaner into the carburetor intake hole.
I guess I should note that it's best if you make sure you put your little plastic straw tube in there far enough to go past the choke plate or even open the choke plate with your finger or a tiny screwdriver so you're really getting your external fuel source carb spray in past the carburetor so it can easily get sucked into the engine.
Then, leave the air filter and it's cover off and pull the rope for a five more times to see if it starts and runs for a few seconds.
If it does great! You now know the engine is mechanically sound and all you need to do is get it to flow fuel.
Wait! I did this intentionally but we forgot to do one thing.
When America comes into you and you've pulled the rope a few times and it does not start actually the first thing you should do is check the gas tank!!
If you do this long enough you will have mowers come in where the customer says they can't get them to start and in my creature of habit method I just spray some carb spray in there and then they run for 2 seconds and die but if you look into the gas tank they're dry as a bone.
Sometimes people will actually run a lawn mower out of fuel but forget they did it and when they get it back out to try it they will forget to check and add fresh gas.
Have had a number of them come in that had absolutely nothing wrong with them they just needed some gas put into the tank
To those people's benefit though, most of the time they have been sent in for an annual service or what people sadly often referred to as a tune-up. I refuse to use that word even though many / most lawn mower shops and techs will use it.
I call tune up an evil word that cost people lots of money. Lol
So I will back up and give the best overall troubleshooting procedure.
Better not familiar more comes your Way step one and always the most important
MAKE SURE IT HAS OIL IN THE CRANKCASE!
People will bring you mowers that have absolutely no oil in them or are too dangerous to start because of their low levels or those that have been moved and had the oil poured out of them and never refilled.
So I never pull the rope on any lawn mower or crank a rider without checking the oil first.
Then you check the gas tank to see if there's fuel in it.
This also gives you the chance to look around for any moisture or floaty things in there.
Now you pull it a few times and see that it doesn't start and then you pop off the air filter and give it a squirt in the throat with the carb cleaner.
85% of the time maybe closer to 90% this tells you all you need to know.
Occasionally you will find one that has an air filter so clogged that's the only reason it won't run but luckily as you pull the air filter off to give it external fuel source test you will spot this.
Two birds with one stone kind of thing.
So then, if the mower is simply there for a no start, you clean out the carb by whichever means your accustomed to or you do it the way I feel should not be done and put a new carburetor on there and it's ready to go.
Note that you should also flush some fresh gas through the gas tank and fuel lines and I feel every lawn mower up with fresh stabilized fuel before it leaves.
I don't believe in replacing carburetors when it's possible to clean out the old one or replace needle and seats or floats etc and I don't believe in removing carburetors when you can do everything that needs to be done on the machine.
You can't always do this but 90% of the time you can.
You have to work a little harder as in sneaking your fingers underneath the bottom of the bowl and stuff like that but the amount of time is much shorter.
So in my situation it's better to work harder for a shorter period of time which makes me far more efficient and gets me on to the next more because I have never ending supply of them that I'm behind in doing.
#45
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
There are 2 big problems with modern plugs.
The big one is that at compression pressures modern fuel ( which is not petrol ) becomes conductive.
So the spark will either fire early or just run down the sides of the electrode insulator.
The other problem is emissions have a maximum permissible lead content of 0.0001 % in most juristrictions .
At that level, lead from the glaze becomes a problem so the nose insulator is no longer glazed.
Thus once a spark tracks down the side it makes a permenant conductive path so the plug is dead .
As for bad out the box , very rarely happens .
Back in the 70's when the machines were less automated, each & every plug got 12 tests automatically as they came out of the machine and were graded according to the test results .
The one machine in the Champion factory in Sydney made every brand of spark plug with the exception of denso & bosch .
The NGK factory in Melbourne did the same thing .
I used to wet my pants with laughter when one "brand bigoted idiot " started sprouting about how much better the brand he used was compared to always bad plugs with other brands .
Now the USA might be different , but I doubt it as the profit on a standard plug is so low trucking them 1/2 across the country costs more than the total profit and his is before the distribution cost to retailers & retail profit.
If you work backwards from what you pay you will see the plug factory gets about the same price as a bolt maker would for a 14 mm zinc plated bolt .
The big one is that at compression pressures modern fuel ( which is not petrol ) becomes conductive.
So the spark will either fire early or just run down the sides of the electrode insulator.
The other problem is emissions have a maximum permissible lead content of 0.0001 % in most juristrictions .
At that level, lead from the glaze becomes a problem so the nose insulator is no longer glazed.
Thus once a spark tracks down the side it makes a permenant conductive path so the plug is dead .
As for bad out the box , very rarely happens .
Back in the 70's when the machines were less automated, each & every plug got 12 tests automatically as they came out of the machine and were graded according to the test results .
The one machine in the Champion factory in Sydney made every brand of spark plug with the exception of denso & bosch .
The NGK factory in Melbourne did the same thing .
I used to wet my pants with laughter when one "brand bigoted idiot " started sprouting about how much better the brand he used was compared to always bad plugs with other brands .
Now the USA might be different , but I doubt it as the profit on a standard plug is so low trucking them 1/2 across the country costs more than the total profit and his is before the distribution cost to retailers & retail profit.
If you work backwards from what you pay you will see the plug factory gets about the same price as a bolt maker would for a 14 mm zinc plated bolt .
#46
T
TobyU
I've seen in service thousands of them and just the past three or four years and like I stated before the failure rate or problem rate with a plug is extremely low. It's about 1 in 500 and the big deal about this is we don't actually know the history of that plug. Maybe somebody had it out and dropped it on the asphalt and put it back in.
Plugs give so little problems in push mowers and riders and that's why I tell people to stop going to that first because it's just wasting your time.
The only reason people still have this mindset is because of the old days and I'm talking even prior to the push button primer bulbs.
Back before the EPA went nuts and leaned everything out to less than ideal mixture ratios and mowers had chokes, it was very common to flood one out.
There wasn't anything wrong with the plug, it was just wet and fouled or wet temporarily.
People found that if they put a new plug in it would start and run, not because the other plug was bad because they could have simply dried that plug off or burn off the gas with a cigarette lighter for 3 seconds and could have achieved the same results by putting that one back in.
So anyways, old habits die hard as do bad habits and those based on false logic but people still think if your lawn mower doesn't start you should try a new spark plug or another spark plug.
95% of the time maybe 99.5% of the time it's not going to do the tricks so I call it a waste of time.
T
TobyU
As far as plugs for lawn mowers, I don't see there being any problem.There are 2 big problems with modern plugs.
The big one is that at compression pressures modern fuel ( which is not petrol ) becomes conductive.
So the spark will either fire early or just run down the sides of the electrode insulator.
The other problem is emissions have a maximum permissible lead content of 0.0001 % in most juristrictions .
At that level, lead from the glaze becomes a problem so the nose insulator is no longer glazed.
Thus once a spark tracks down the side it makes a permenant conductive path so the plug is dead .
As for bad out the box , very rarely happens .
Back in the 70's when the machines were less automated, each & every plug got 12 tests automatically as they came out of the machine and were graded according to the test results .
The one machine in the Champion factory in Sydney made every brand of spark plug with the exception of denso & bosch .
The NGK factory in Melbourne did the same thing .
I used to wet my pants with laughter when one "brand bigoted idiot " started sprouting about how much better the brand he used was compared to always bad plugs with other brands .
Now the USA might be different , but I doubt it as the profit on a standard plug is so low trucking them 1/2 across the country costs more than the total profit and his is before the distribution cost to retailers & retail profit.
If you work backwards from what you pay you will see the plug factory gets about the same price as a bolt maker would for a 14 mm zinc plated bolt .
I've seen in service thousands of them and just the past three or four years and like I stated before the failure rate or problem rate with a plug is extremely low. It's about 1 in 500 and the big deal about this is we don't actually know the history of that plug. Maybe somebody had it out and dropped it on the asphalt and put it back in.
Plugs give so little problems in push mowers and riders and that's why I tell people to stop going to that first because it's just wasting your time.
The only reason people still have this mindset is because of the old days and I'm talking even prior to the push button primer bulbs.
Back before the EPA went nuts and leaned everything out to less than ideal mixture ratios and mowers had chokes, it was very common to flood one out.
There wasn't anything wrong with the plug, it was just wet and fouled or wet temporarily.
People found that if they put a new plug in it would start and run, not because the other plug was bad because they could have simply dried that plug off or burn off the gas with a cigarette lighter for 3 seconds and could have achieved the same results by putting that one back in.
So anyways, old habits die hard as do bad habits and those based on false logic but people still think if your lawn mower doesn't start you should try a new spark plug or another spark plug.
95% of the time maybe 99.5% of the time it's not going to do the tricks so I call it a waste of time.
#47
C
charleneje
C
charleneje
I haven't read all the replies you got on here but if it is really cold where you are and the mower is not kept in a shed or garage you might want to pull the fuel line and drain the tank then check to see if there is ice in the bottom of the tank or lines, it sounds like the mower started on what was already in the carb from the last time you started it and it didn't get anymore gas due to blockage I had that problem a couple years ago when we had a bad ice storm and I wanted to move my mower under cover.
#48
J
jerrycmorrow
J
jerrycmorrow
Haven’t adjusted valves yet but did replace plug, fuel filter, fuel shut off valve,
oil filter and oil.
the replaced oil smelled of gasoline so replaced oil and filter. The mower was on a slight cross slope with the drain plug on downhill side. Let oil drain for good five minutes.
The other plug was drenched so replaced it
Got it to run but ran poorly so shut it off. Checked oil level and while doing so noticed “creamy” colored streaks in the new oil.
gonna readjust valves and possibly replace oil after I determine what the discoloration is from. If this were water cooled engine I’d call a bad head gasket.
any comments appreciated
oil filter and oil.
the replaced oil smelled of gasoline so replaced oil and filter. The mower was on a slight cross slope with the drain plug on downhill side. Let oil drain for good five minutes.
The other plug was drenched so replaced it
Got it to run but ran poorly so shut it off. Checked oil level and while doing so noticed “creamy” colored streaks in the new oil.
gonna readjust valves and possibly replace oil after I determine what the discoloration is from. If this were water cooled engine I’d call a bad head gasket.
any comments appreciated
#49
S
S.A.P.
S
S.A.P.
U need spark, compression, and fuel. I told U that before. I see U have gotten tons of spark plug replies, that U can file in the garbage can. Test the compression and if U have above 60 lbs. it certainly should at least fire. Keep us posted, and I will help U along.Haven’t adjusted valves yet but did replace plug, fuel filter, fuel shut off valve,
oil filter and oil.
the replaced oil smelled of gasoline so replaced oil and filter. The mower was on a slight cross slope with the drain plug on downhill side. Let oil drain for good five minutes.
The other plug was drenched so replaced it
Got it to run but ran poorly so shut it off. Checked oil level and while doing so noticed “creamy” colored streaks in the new oil.
gonna readjust valves and possibly replace oil after I determine what the discoloration is from. If this were water cooled engine I’d call a bad head gasket.
any comments appreciated
#50
Compact7
I changed the hydraulic fluid in my woodsplitter. Still suffered from slow ram action. After removing the engine to expose the tank's interior, I discovered a slab of ice over a quarter-inch thick and 6- to 8-inches around. The pump would suck the slab tight against the fluid uptake pipe, lol.
Just guessing you may have a mini-iceberg too!
Compact7
I'd bet a mass of frozen water in the bottom. Enough of it melted during the brief test run to show up in the oil....possibly replace oil after I determine what the discoloration is from. If this were water cooled engine I’d call a bad head gasket.
any comments appreciated
I changed the hydraulic fluid in my woodsplitter. Still suffered from slow ram action. After removing the engine to expose the tank's interior, I discovered a slab of ice over a quarter-inch thick and 6- to 8-inches around. The pump would suck the slab tight against the fluid uptake pipe, lol.
Just guessing you may have a mini-iceberg too!
#51
J
jerrycmorrow
J
jerrycmorrow
Did you actually read my post?U need spark, compression, and fuel. I told U that before. I see U have gotten tons of spark plug replies, that U can file in the garbage can. Test the compression and if U have above 60 lbs. it certainly should at least fire. Keep us posted, and I will help U along.
#52
J
jerrycmorrow
J
jerrycmorrow
Maybe so. We’ll seeI'd bet a mass of frozen water in the bottom. Enough of it melted during the brief test run to show up in the oil.
I changed the hydraulic fluid in my woodsplitter. Still suffered from slow ram action. After removing the engine to expose the tank's interior, I discovered a slab of ice over a quarter-inch thick and 6- to 8-inches around. The pump would suck the slab tight against the fluid uptake pipe, lol.
Just guessing you may have a mini-iceberg too!
#53
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
You can forget about wasting the time adjusting the valves for now. If it started and ran a little bit ago then it's not really a problem with the valves despite the fact they're probably looser than they should be cuz that's what they do but not a big deal until it gets hard to crank over.
The red flags here are that the spark plug was wet which and that the oil was diluted with fuel or at least it sounds like it.
That leads me to believe it has the all too common issue of fuel migration which is when the carburetor does not shut off properly with the needle and seat the way it's supposed to and it floods out the carburetor when it's sitting. The first sign of this is often that the machine won't start when you choke it like you have always done for years but when you turn the choke off and crank it a little bit longer it fires right up but also blows a little bit of white smoke for a couple of seconds.
People often find this has become the new way they have to start their lawn mower by no choke and of course these are supposed to need choke to start.
That's the most minor and probably the most common early on. Then you have the issue where you come out and smell gas and see it leaking on the ground and then you have the ones that leak all of it out and your gas tank is then dry but you know it had gas when you parked it.
Then you have the ones that depending on how the engine Coast down to a stop, will flood out the entire cylinder with gas and hydrolock so it will start to crank and then stop abruptly.
Then, when you pull the spark plug out and crank it over a little bit you better have an old shop cloth handy and point it in a proper safe direction because it will blow gas and spray it everywhere.
It's also possible for a stray spark if the spark plug wire happens to be in the right location to catch that fuel on fire but it usually wouldn't go anywhere from there and just smothering it with a towel would put it out.
It is worth being cautious though.
You can often remove the air filter and look with a flashlight to see if there's gas peddling in the intake but that only works on the flat rectangular air filter and maybe one other one and the D shaped hole went on the twins because most of the newer ones have the round air filter that sticks onto the round tube and there is a 90° turn in the tube so you can't see much.
The red flags here are that the spark plug was wet which and that the oil was diluted with fuel or at least it sounds like it.
That leads me to believe it has the all too common issue of fuel migration which is when the carburetor does not shut off properly with the needle and seat the way it's supposed to and it floods out the carburetor when it's sitting. The first sign of this is often that the machine won't start when you choke it like you have always done for years but when you turn the choke off and crank it a little bit longer it fires right up but also blows a little bit of white smoke for a couple of seconds.
People often find this has become the new way they have to start their lawn mower by no choke and of course these are supposed to need choke to start.
That's the most minor and probably the most common early on. Then you have the issue where you come out and smell gas and see it leaking on the ground and then you have the ones that leak all of it out and your gas tank is then dry but you know it had gas when you parked it.
Then you have the ones that depending on how the engine Coast down to a stop, will flood out the entire cylinder with gas and hydrolock so it will start to crank and then stop abruptly.
Then, when you pull the spark plug out and crank it over a little bit you better have an old shop cloth handy and point it in a proper safe direction because it will blow gas and spray it everywhere.
It's also possible for a stray spark if the spark plug wire happens to be in the right location to catch that fuel on fire but it usually wouldn't go anywhere from there and just smothering it with a towel would put it out.
It is worth being cautious though.
You can often remove the air filter and look with a flashlight to see if there's gas peddling in the intake but that only works on the flat rectangular air filter and maybe one other one and the D shaped hole went on the twins because most of the newer ones have the round air filter that sticks onto the round tube and there is a 90° turn in the tube so you can't see much.