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Kohler Courage, leaking oil
#1
A
arch252
A
arch252
Kohler
Family 8KHXS.5972GB
Displ. 597
Model No. SV600S
Spec. No. SV600-0030
I have a friend with a Gravely 2042 zero turn, it has the 20 hp Kohler Courage engine that everyone loves so much. He said he was mowing when the deck lost power and then he noticed oil coming out of the bottom of the engine. He bought it used from a a dealer so he took it back to them and they were going to charge him $400 minimum, they told him the engine had "spun a bearing" and the engine would have to be replaced. This guy doesn't know engines from apples so he didn't ask exactly what that meant or how they came to that conclusion. He was ready to scrap that otherwise excellent Gravely zero turn so I asked him if I could look at it.
I picked it up from the dealer and they said the "bottom seal went out...no the top seal...no it was the bottom seal" and that the shaft was moving back and forth more than a quarter of an inch so the "engine was scrap." They didn't open the engine up at all, just wiggled the shaft.
I brought it home to look at it. First off I figure the deck is fine, the loss of power was just a result of oil blowing on the belt. I checked the shaft, they had already removed the belt and pulley so the shaft was bare. The shaft did wobble significantly. I figured I would open it up to find the counterweight was loose on the crankshaft causing the wobble that eventually got so bad that the seal was compromised.
I removed the flywheel and crankcase cover. There was no obvious damage inside the crankcase. There were some very fine slivers and shavings of metal, just a few and very fine. I could not find the obvious cause of the shavings. The crankcase was not cracked, the upper seal looked good and did not appear to have been leaking. I could not find any other source of oil leak other than the bottom seal, and I cannot confirm that, they had wiped the oil from the underside and drained the oil when I got it. My assumption that the bottom seal was the source of the leak was nothing more than a process of elimination of other sources. No oil was coming from the oil filter or anywhere else I could tell.
I unbolted the piston rod and removed the crankshaft and counterweight. I found no play whatsoever from either of the weight/shaft couplings. They were very tight and rotated smoothly.
At this point I dont know why I was able to move or wiggle the shaft from underneath the mower before I removed it. The bottom seal did not have an obvious damage. I wasn't able to look at the seal until after I removed the crankshaft so I can't say that there WASN'T a problem with the bottom seal, just nothing obvious. The seal certainly did not appear bad enough to allow as much play in the shaft as I felt.
I am not into this engine for anything pricey just yet. I'm tempted to replace the top and bottom seal and put on a new crankcase gasket, oh, and replace the oil drainback tube that I damaged when I removed the shaft, and tighten it all up and check to see if the only problem was the failure of the bottom seal. That's less than $20.
Can anyone tell me if this is a bad idea or if I have overlooked something obvious or if there is something else I should check before I do that. I don't have any experience with Kohler engines and my experience with vertical shaft engines in general is also limited so I'm well outside my comfort zone.
Please don't give me the "replace that engine with a Command or Briggs" or something like that. If I can fix this engine I want to do that, even if it only lasts another year or two, I'm into it so far for about two hours and twenty bucks in parts. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Family 8KHXS.5972GB
Displ. 597
Model No. SV600S
Spec. No. SV600-0030
I have a friend with a Gravely 2042 zero turn, it has the 20 hp Kohler Courage engine that everyone loves so much. He said he was mowing when the deck lost power and then he noticed oil coming out of the bottom of the engine. He bought it used from a a dealer so he took it back to them and they were going to charge him $400 minimum, they told him the engine had "spun a bearing" and the engine would have to be replaced. This guy doesn't know engines from apples so he didn't ask exactly what that meant or how they came to that conclusion. He was ready to scrap that otherwise excellent Gravely zero turn so I asked him if I could look at it.
I picked it up from the dealer and they said the "bottom seal went out...no the top seal...no it was the bottom seal" and that the shaft was moving back and forth more than a quarter of an inch so the "engine was scrap." They didn't open the engine up at all, just wiggled the shaft.
I brought it home to look at it. First off I figure the deck is fine, the loss of power was just a result of oil blowing on the belt. I checked the shaft, they had already removed the belt and pulley so the shaft was bare. The shaft did wobble significantly. I figured I would open it up to find the counterweight was loose on the crankshaft causing the wobble that eventually got so bad that the seal was compromised.
I removed the flywheel and crankcase cover. There was no obvious damage inside the crankcase. There were some very fine slivers and shavings of metal, just a few and very fine. I could not find the obvious cause of the shavings. The crankcase was not cracked, the upper seal looked good and did not appear to have been leaking. I could not find any other source of oil leak other than the bottom seal, and I cannot confirm that, they had wiped the oil from the underside and drained the oil when I got it. My assumption that the bottom seal was the source of the leak was nothing more than a process of elimination of other sources. No oil was coming from the oil filter or anywhere else I could tell.
I unbolted the piston rod and removed the crankshaft and counterweight. I found no play whatsoever from either of the weight/shaft couplings. They were very tight and rotated smoothly.
At this point I dont know why I was able to move or wiggle the shaft from underneath the mower before I removed it. The bottom seal did not have an obvious damage. I wasn't able to look at the seal until after I removed the crankshaft so I can't say that there WASN'T a problem with the bottom seal, just nothing obvious. The seal certainly did not appear bad enough to allow as much play in the shaft as I felt.
I am not into this engine for anything pricey just yet. I'm tempted to replace the top and bottom seal and put on a new crankcase gasket, oh, and replace the oil drainback tube that I damaged when I removed the shaft, and tighten it all up and check to see if the only problem was the failure of the bottom seal. That's less than $20.
Can anyone tell me if this is a bad idea or if I have overlooked something obvious or if there is something else I should check before I do that. I don't have any experience with Kohler engines and my experience with vertical shaft engines in general is also limited so I'm well outside my comfort zone.
Please don't give me the "replace that engine with a Command or Briggs" or something like that. If I can fix this engine I want to do that, even if it only lasts another year or two, I'm into it so far for about two hours and twenty bucks in parts. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
#2
reynoldston
reynoldston
Just why is the crank shaft loose? bad bearing? bearing loose in housing? Fix that first, then install new seal and good to go.
#3
A
arch252
A
arch252
That's what I thought, particularly because the guy told my friend that the engine "spun a bearing". I'm sure I'm just an idiot here, I can't find any bearings! There is a top and bottom seal, the camshaft connecting rod to the piston, the two points where the camshaft is connected to the counterweight and the camshaft is machined to hold it in place inside the housing, but other than that it's only connected outside the housing to the flywheel on the one end and the pulley on the bottom, I can't find a bearing. Common sense tells me there should be a bearing, but I don't see one and I can't find one on the parts diagram. Help me with that one please!
#5
reynoldston
reynoldston
I wasn't thinking when you said Kohler Courage. Its been some time back when I had one apart. But as I recall one of the things I didn't like about that engine it doesn't have any crankshaft bearings. The crankshaft runs right into the engine case. If that is loose maybe a machine shop can bore out the case and then install a bushing? Other then that you will need a different engine case, maybe E-Bay.
#6
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arch252
A
arch252
Yes, I double checked, no bearings and I don't like that either. I can't imagine that the shaft opening has been damaged without completely destroying the oil seal. The oil seal appeared to be in pretty good condition, although I am pretty certain it was damaged enough at least to cause the leak. I've ordered the top and bottom oil seal and crankcase gasket at I'm thinking (unless someone tells me otherwise) I'll just replace those and bolt it up and see where I'm at with it. I can't believe that it would be that easy a fix but I guess it's possible.
I'm pretty disappointed in the Gravely dealer telling this guy that the engine had "spun a bearing" and would need to be replaced. The engine might need to be replaced but that was a pretty shady diagnosis.
I'm pretty disappointed in the Gravely dealer telling this guy that the engine had "spun a bearing" and would need to be replaced. The engine might need to be replaced but that was a pretty shady diagnosis.
#7
A
arch252
A
arch252
So let me concede to the pros. There is a reason why some people get paid to do this work and I just fix stuff for free in my garage. As crazy as this may sound, the mechanic at the Gravely dealership knew exactly what he was doing!
Here's what I have found out. I went back out tonight to look in that crankcase. I had a UV light and I was going to check for cracks in the crankcase. What I noticed, which I should have seen earlier, was that in the bottom shaft hole, after I had removed the old oil seal, there was a groove machined into the block that obviously holds the shaft in place to keep it from pushing down on the oil seal. Well, as reynoldston noted earlier, this would have been a fantastic place to put a bearing, but because they did not, the shaft rests directly onto this machined "lip" inside the shaft hole. Hopefully you can see in the attached photos. The lip is still present on one half of the hole, but it is worn completely smooth on the other half. I guess I have found the source of the small metal shavings.
So, I think I know the answer to this, but I need opinions....is this engine block trashed? Can it be salvaged at all at this point? I can't imagine any way that this block could be used at this point but hopefully someone will prove me wrong.
Here's what I have found out. I went back out tonight to look in that crankcase. I had a UV light and I was going to check for cracks in the crankcase. What I noticed, which I should have seen earlier, was that in the bottom shaft hole, after I had removed the old oil seal, there was a groove machined into the block that obviously holds the shaft in place to keep it from pushing down on the oil seal. Well, as reynoldston noted earlier, this would have been a fantastic place to put a bearing, but because they did not, the shaft rests directly onto this machined "lip" inside the shaft hole. Hopefully you can see in the attached photos. The lip is still present on one half of the hole, but it is worn completely smooth on the other half. I guess I have found the source of the small metal shavings.
So, I think I know the answer to this, but I need opinions....is this engine block trashed? Can it be salvaged at all at this point? I can't imagine any way that this block could be used at this point but hopefully someone will prove me wrong.
Attachments
#8
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
Yes, your engine has bearings as most all do. The case in this instance is the bearings and besides what you think of as bearings that engine also has a thrust bearing as all do. When you said they wiggled the shaft that didn't tell much. Which way it wiggled tells much more. The reason they didn't bother opening it up, they have probably seen this numerous times in courage engines. Experience speeds diagnostics in this case. The thrust portion ( pictured ) of the lower bearing has shot crapps. I'm not familiar with the crank shaft thrust clearance on this one ( guessing maybe 0.003" - 0.010" ) so when the shop sees a 1/4" thrust clearance that told them the story.
Yes, that engine in my estimation is trashed.
Yes, that engine in my estimation is trashed.
#9
reynoldston
As I said earlier just why can't a machine shop bore the case and install a bushing. Also look on E-Bay for a good used engine case. Not worth spending too much money on that engine because you can buy a new one for around 600 dollars.
reynoldston
Yes, your engine has bearings as most all do. The case in this instance is the bearings and besides what you think of as bearings that engine also has a thrust bearing as all do. When you said they wiggled the shaft that didn't tell much. Which way it wiggled tells much more. The reason they didn't bother opening it up, they have probably seen this numerous times in courage engines. Experience speeds diagnostics in this case. The thrust portion ( pictured ) of the lower bearing has shot crapps. I'm not familiar with the crank shaft thrust clearance on this one ( guessing maybe 0.003" - 0.010" ) so when the shop sees a 1/4" thrust clearance that told them the story.
Yes, that engine in my estimation is trashed.
As I said earlier just why can't a machine shop bore the case and install a bushing. Also look on E-Bay for a good used engine case. Not worth spending too much money on that engine because you can buy a new one for around 600 dollars.
#10
S
SeniorCitizen
The odds of finding a shop that would want to tackle that job would be about the same as me being able to baptize a cat with bare hands.
If we could find one to take the job we no doubt wouldn't like the cost . Give it up and sell the aluminum, it's trashed.
S
SeniorCitizen
As I said earlier just why can't a machine shop bore the case and install a bushing. Also look on E-Bay for a good used engine case. Not worth spending too much money on that engine because you can buy a new one for around 600 dollars.
The odds of finding a shop that would want to tackle that job would be about the same as me being able to baptize a cat with bare hands.
If we could find one to take the job we no doubt wouldn't like the cost . Give it up and sell the aluminum, it's trashed.
#11
A
arch252
A
arch252
I agree that the engine is toast, getting the block machined would not be worth the cost. I'm hoping to find another engine, preferably a Kohler Command that I can just replace it with. As for the bearing thing, I think a "thrust bearing" is what I think of as a traditional bearing with some type of rollers, I don't consider one piece of metal sitting on top of another piece of metal a bearing just because it is moveable, but that's why I'm no expert. As for a thrust bearing in that Kohler Courage engine, I'd really have to argue that there is not one, at least not one associated with the crankshaft anyway. Again though, I'm just a guy who owns a set of wrenches.
Well, the part I was worried most about, the crankshaft and counterweight, are in excellent condition. I guess I'll take that engine completely apart and Ebay it, maybe absorb some of the cost of a replacement engine. Hoepfully the Command engine will be a suitable replacement and will swap out easily on that mower.
Well, the part I was worried most about, the crankshaft and counterweight, are in excellent condition. I guess I'll take that engine completely apart and Ebay it, maybe absorb some of the cost of a replacement engine. Hoepfully the Command engine will be a suitable replacement and will swap out easily on that mower.
#12
reynoldston
I agree with the cost and trashing the old block, but I don't agree with the shortage of any machine shops. I have never had any problem having any machine work done, but don't be in a hurry.
reynoldston
The odds of finding a shop that would want to tackle that job would be about the same as me being able to baptize a cat with bare hands.
If we could find one to take the job we no doubt wouldn't like the cost . Give it up and sell the aluminum, it's trashed.
I agree with the cost and trashing the old block, but I don't agree with the shortage of any machine shops. I have never had any problem having any machine work done, but don't be in a hurry.
#13
A
arch252
A
arch252
Re: Kohler Courage, leaking oil UPDATE: Kudos to Kohler
I contacted Kohler directly about the engine by email. I was really hoping to sound sad enough to get a decent price on a short block. They were quick to get back to me by email and they were quick to address the problem. I had a service tech contact me directly and he seemed to have the right level of authority to approve the service I needed, which was nice, not a bunch of runaround. They did not come out and directly admit that there are flaws with the design of the Courage engine, but it was apparent that I was not the first person with this problem. He had me send some pictures of the block, bearing and camshaft. Even though the engine was well out of warranty, they agreed to replace the short block free of charge. The work had to be done by a certified mechanic but they let me pick the repair center of my choice. I was responsible for the shipping and labor. When I paid the bill I discovered that they had not even charged for the shipping. The short block came with a new carb also. Labor cost me a little over $200 but all in all I couldn't be happier. Way to go Kohler, way to stand behind your equipment. The service tech who helped me was top notch. Still not crazy about the Courage engine, and I doubt I'll buy another piece of equipment with that engine, but I definitely think highly of the Command and others.
I contacted Kohler directly about the engine by email. I was really hoping to sound sad enough to get a decent price on a short block. They were quick to get back to me by email and they were quick to address the problem. I had a service tech contact me directly and he seemed to have the right level of authority to approve the service I needed, which was nice, not a bunch of runaround. They did not come out and directly admit that there are flaws with the design of the Courage engine, but it was apparent that I was not the first person with this problem. He had me send some pictures of the block, bearing and camshaft. Even though the engine was well out of warranty, they agreed to replace the short block free of charge. The work had to be done by a certified mechanic but they let me pick the repair center of my choice. I was responsible for the shipping and labor. When I paid the bill I discovered that they had not even charged for the shipping. The short block came with a new carb also. Labor cost me a little over $200 but all in all I couldn't be happier. Way to go Kohler, way to stand behind your equipment. The service tech who helped me was top notch. Still not crazy about the Courage engine, and I doubt I'll buy another piece of equipment with that engine, but I definitely think highly of the Command and others.
#14
B
bertsmobile1
It is a lot bigger job than it looks.
Both the top & bottom cases will require fitting a sleeve bush then reaming out to size.
Briggs make bushes, Kohler don't so they will have to be custom made.
The crank will most likely need a touch up as well.
About 30 to 45 minutes of machining and 4+ hours of setting up.
An hour to remove the engine
an hour to replace the engine
another 1 to 2 hours to strip clean & reassemble the engine
+ parts
It is an uneconomic repair
A 1/2 honest workshop would do a replacement engine for 2 hours lablor & offer a discount for retaining the old engine which is either kept for parts or dragged out mid winter as a loss limiter for the boys to do when they have nothing else happening.
I have two lathes, two mills & shaper but I would not even think of attempting the job on a Courage.
OTOH if you know a backyard, hobby - semi commercial machinist they they will most likely take on the job, just like you, to see if they can do it and charge a fraction of the actual commercial cost.
B
bertsmobile1
As I said earlier just why can't a machine shop bore the case and install a bushing. Also look on E-Bay for a good used engine case. Not worth spending too much money on that engine because you can buy a new one for around 600 dollars.
It is a lot bigger job than it looks.
Both the top & bottom cases will require fitting a sleeve bush then reaming out to size.
Briggs make bushes, Kohler don't so they will have to be custom made.
The crank will most likely need a touch up as well.
About 30 to 45 minutes of machining and 4+ hours of setting up.
An hour to remove the engine
an hour to replace the engine
another 1 to 2 hours to strip clean & reassemble the engine
+ parts
It is an uneconomic repair
A 1/2 honest workshop would do a replacement engine for 2 hours lablor & offer a discount for retaining the old engine which is either kept for parts or dragged out mid winter as a loss limiter for the boys to do when they have nothing else happening.
I have two lathes, two mills & shaper but I would not even think of attempting the job on a Courage.
OTOH if you know a backyard, hobby - semi commercial machinist they they will most likely take on the job, just like you, to see if they can do it and charge a fraction of the actual commercial cost.