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I just bought this thing (less than 5 hours) and noticed a rough idle to the point where there was a knocking noise from something shaking underneath. So I swapped in some NKG Iridiums (BKR5EIX). Now it purrs like a kitten. Champion plugs are great......... for throwing at windows and that's about it.

Hope you get 100,000 miles out of them.

One bad egg doesn’t mean the hen house is rotten. Plus, how do you know it was the plug, could easily have been a loose connection. We’ll never know.

Rivets said:

One bad egg doesn’t mean the hen house is rotten. Plus, how do you know it was the plug, could easily have been a loose connection. We’ll never know.

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Hmm, no, we'll know. Obviously I didn't have the new plugs on hand when I pulled the existing ones to check them. Gaps were both .03 and with less than 5 hours they were already covered in carbon. They ran the same way when they went back in, as Champions typically do, with both connections tight. If you like them, keep right on buying them. I've been removing and trashing Champions on sight since the 80's and will continue to do so.

SirMowzalot said:

BKR5EIX

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Let us know how these plugs go. Our experience with NGK sparkpugs in these engines has been poor. They simply don't last as the heat range is incorrect. It may be purring now but let's give it a few full days in the field and see.

My opinion... you may have to change you name to @SirDoesntMowAlot

More scientific wisdom from the internet.

We either have millions of pieces of equipment with bad plugs OR champion has singled you out to send bad plugs to. A conspiracy most likely. I install over 100 spark plugs a year and haven't had a bad one out if the box yet. If your plugs carboned up in 5 hours then either you have the wrong heat range plug, the engine is not running with the proper mixture or the engine is not being run hard enough to get the plug temp up to the self cleaning range.
If $10 spark plugs used in the wrong application makes you happy then go for it.
When champion moved production to Mexico they did have problems with plugs bad out of the box but that was quickly fixed but the "professional" Utuber shadetree mechanics had convinced the world they were all bad.

You do you and i will do me. You can throw every spark plug you want in the trash and i will put in another 100 champions in customers equipment.

Since we have beat oil to death now we can do a spark plug thread.?

A Ford Vs Chey situation really
I tend to use Champions in 2 strokes and NGK's in 4 strokes
This is because Champions have a much broader working range than NGK's so suit the variations in blue smokes better.
I like NGK's on mowers because I can usually fine tune the plugs to the engine as their heat range is smaller so I can go 1 or 2 grades hotter where as with a Champion it is a jump of 2 to 3 grades for each plug.
I also have some Bosh plugs which again are quite coarse in their temperature graduations , but not as coarse as Champions

I am the other way around. I put champs in 4 strokes, mainly RC12Y and RC14Y along with the ubiquitous J19LM. In 2 strokes and Honds i use NGKs. Too many numbers to count but i buy the BPMR7A by the shop pack.

Hammermechanicman said:

Hope you get 100,000 miles out of them.

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Hammermechanicman said:

More scientific wisdom from the internet.

We either have millions of pieces of equipment with bad plugs OR champion has singled you out to send bad plugs to. A conspiracy most likely. I install over 100 spark plugs a year and haven't had a bad one out if the box yet. If your plugs carboned up in 5 hours then either you have the wrong heat range plug, the engine is not running with the proper mixture or the engine is not being run hard enough to get the plug temp up to the self cleaning range.
If $10 spark plugs used in the wrong application makes you happy then go for it.
When champion moved production to Mexico they did have problems with plugs bad out of the box but that was quickly fixed but the "professional" Utuber shadetree mechanics had convinced the world they were all bad.

You do you and i will do me. You can throw every spark plug you want in the trash and i will put in another 100 champions in customers equipment.

Since we have beat oil to death now we can do a spark plug thread.?

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^^^^ That right there is why I will NEVER bring a piece of equipment into a shop.

That definately works for me. ?

As noted lets hear back after 5 more hours. Bet those NGK's will hit some glass soon. I agree there is an overly rich condition going on. Or you had a Chinese copy of a Champion that you threw away.

Just picked up a 1993 McLane edger with a 3.5hp Briggs. It has a Champion J19LM plug. Carb was all jacked up, choke stuck on. Linkages all messed up. Plug was totally black with a solid carbon gap. Cleaned the plug down to metal with a hand wire brush. Fired up on the first pull. Plug looked original as in 1993. All rusted on the hex head and boot end. Summation, plugs rarely go bad. Normally when they do it's from poor fuel ratios slash carbon fouling. Not a plug issue but a carb or plugged air filter issue.

slomo

More rambling from some random guy on the internet.

Small air cooled engines unlike automotive engines do not have a thermostaticaly controlled cooling system. Engineers need to design them to operate at full power over a wide temperature range under varying load conditions. This means there are a lot of compromises with their design and the engines will operate at different temperatures depending on ambient temperature and load.
We also need to understand how a sparkplug works. For a sparkplug to operate properly it needs to have the temperature of the center electrode in the self cleaning range which is approximately 500*C to 850*C. What this means is anytime a plug is operating below 500*C it is carbon fouling regardless of type or brand. So when any piece of equipment is started the plug is carbon fouling until the the sparkplug reaches the self cleaning range and then operates there till all the carbon is burned off. This is why we have different heat range plugs to try and match the plug to the operating temp of the engine. Many people look at a plug that is black with carbon fouling and immediately assume the engine is running rich. This is usuallly not the case. The engine is just operating with the sparkplug below the self cleaning range. Even if the engine is running a lean mixture the sparkplug will carbon foul until the sparkplug reaches the self cleaning range. Many people state all the Briggs L head engines run rich because every sparkplug they have taken out was black and must be running rich when in reality the low compression engines don't generate a lot of heat and unkess the engines are operated at full load they won't get the plug into the self cleaning range. Many people think that not running equipment at full throttle is better and will make it last longer when the opposite is true. Engine will run best at full speed under a load. Overheated is bad along with not enough heat being bad also.

And remember kids to take everthing you read on the internet with a grain of salt.

slomo said:

As noted lets hear back after 5 more hours. Bet those NGK's will hit some glass soon. I agree there is an overly rich condition going on. Or you had a Chinese copy of a Champion that you threw away.

Just picked up a 1993 McLane edger with a 3.5hp Briggs. It has a Champion J19LM plug. Carb was all jacked up, choke stuck on. Linkages all messed up. Plug was totally black with a solid carbon gap. Cleaned the plug down to metal with a hand wire brush. Fired up on the first pull. Plug looked original as in 1993. All rusted on the hex head and boot end. Summation, plugs rarely go bad. Normally when they do it's from poor fuel ratios slash carbon fouling. Not a plug issue but a carb or plugged air filter issue.

slomo

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Agree withy your sentiment, but plugs do go bad, and modern plugs do it more often than old plugs.
Because we now have very sensitive chemical test gear we can detect the most minute amount of things like lead in exhausts.
Now as we all know lead was invented by Satan and any one who even looks at as little as single molecule of lead will instantly get cancer, grow 3 heads and have defective children.
Now the problem is the white glaze used on insulator nose contains lead
And a couple of atoms of this lead can be liberated during running and end up in the exhaust gas where it will cause the entire plant to cease to exist ( or so the EPA thinks )
Thus the nose insulators on most plugs are no longer glazed.

This would not be a problem if we were burning real petrol ( a now mythical liquid not seen for several decades & believed to be extinct ) , but we are burning "fuel".
The downside of fuel is it is quite conductive a cylinder pressures and will happily deposit upon the afore mentioned unglazed plug nose where it makes a spark track down from the center electrode to the base ( ground ) of the plug.
THis path can only be burned off and if the plug won't fire that is sort of difficult to do.

Thus you do get a plug that will seem to be "bad ring out of the box".

slomo said:

As noted lets hear back after 5 more hours. Bet those NGK's will hit some glass soon. I agree there is an overly rich condition going on. Or you had a Chinese copy of a Champion that you threw away.

Just picked up a 1993 McLane edger with a 3.5hp Briggs. It has a Champion J19LM plug. Carb was all jacked up, choke stuck on. Linkages all messed up. Plug was totally black with a solid carbon gap. Cleaned the plug down to metal with a hand wire brush. Fired up on the first pull. Plug looked original as in 1993. All rusted on the hex head and boot end. Summation, plugs rarely go bad. Normally when they do it's from poor fuel ratios slash carbon fouling. Not a plug issue but a carb or plugged air filter issue.

slomo

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The Champions are in the NGK boxes and sitting in my tool box because I already planned to compare them should the problem return. I also said under 5 hours because I was too lazy to go check the meter. It was more like 2.5-3 at the time of the swap. I have the exact number in a log out in the garage. I've run it 2 more times since the swap and no issues so far. I only ran it 3 times when I decided to address the rough idle. Not to mention plugs aren't the only indicator of an AF issue. There's no fuel smell, and this thing does wheelies on level grade so no acceleration issues. When there's an AF issue there are typically multiple symptoms. That's just not the case here.

But by all means, you folks can keep hoping I experience a problem to validate your own beliefs. I won't, which validates my decision to never allow third parties to touch my engines small, auto, or otherwise. But one thing to note. I knew the engine had Champions the day I brought it home. Because when I brought it home I ordered all the required parts for the next few maintenance intervals. They're in a box in a cabinet standing in my garage. That's just how I operate. I left the Champions in already expecting a problem, but hoping I'd be proven wrong. I gave them a chance. They gave me what I expected. Now I have to order another pair of NGKs for next year.

But hey, since you all make your living on how often a customer brings a machine in for service, keep right on using those Champions, lol. Same goes for oil. You keep right on using the dino-crap, and I'll keep right on using the "unnecessary" Amsoil. I'm about ready to do my first unnecessary oil change as well. Because waiting 25 hours like my dealer said on a brand new engine with dino in it makes about as much sense as waiting to get shot before putting on a vest.

SirMowzalot said:

The Champions are in the NGK boxes and sitting in my tool box because I already planned to compare them should the problem return. I also said under 5 hours because I was too lazy to go check the meter. It was more like 2.5-3 at the time of the swap. I have the exact number in a log out in the garage. I've run it 2 more times since the swap and no issues so far. I only ran it 3 times when I decided to address the rough idle. Not to mention plugs aren't the only indicator of an AF issue. There's no fuel smell, and this thing does wheelies on level grade so no acceleration issues. When there's an AF issue there are typically multiple symptoms. That's just not the case here.

But by all means, you folks can keep hoping I experience a problem to validate your own beliefs. I won't, which validates my decision to never allow third parties to touch my engines small, auto, or otherwise. But one thing to note. I knew the engine had Champions the day I brought it home. Because when I brought it home I ordered all the required parts for the next few maintenance intervals. They're in a box in a cabinet standing in my garage. That's just how I operate. I left the Champions in already expecting a problem, but hoping I'd be proven wrong. I gave them a chance. They gave me what I expected. Now I have to order another pair of NGKs for next year.

But hey, since you all make your living on how often a customer brings a machine in for service, keep right on using those Champions, lol. Same goes for oil. You keep right on using the dino-crap, and I'll keep right on using the "unnecessary" Amsoil. I'm about ready to do my first unnecessary oil change as well. Because waiting 25 hours like my dealer said on a brand new engine with dino in it makes about as much sense as waiting to get shot before putting on a vest.

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I applaud the lazy comment above.

You can use chocolate spark plugs. Don't care a bit.

If you want to really impress your friends, get some Mobil Jet aviation grade turbine oil. Could be the coolest kid on the block. Mean while since the application is a lawn mower, dino-crap as you say works good for me. Zero oil failures. Your amsoil is crap compared to the Mobil Jet oil LOL. Wash that down with some juice.


slomo

SirMowzalot said:

Gaps were both .03 and with less than 5 hours they were already covered in carbon.

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Could be a carb issue on a new 5 hour engine. ??

slomo

Sir Mowzalot you can service your equipment with what ever parts and lubes you want, because if they work for you keep using them, but I do take exception with your comment and attitude about service techs and dealers. Your misconception as why they use certain products is totally off base. Good techs and dealerships don’t use subpar parts to keep customers coming back, that will ruin our reputation very quickly and most would be our ob business in short order. In fact the best ones really don’t want to see customers comeback because of a bad part. The small family owned business I just retired from has been around for 66 years with the founder still stopping in at the age of 96 about once a week. We use Champion plugs, dino-oil, and other products which you call “crap” when doing our service work. If these products are so bad, why would we have the reputation and awards of being the best service dealer in the area. I can tell you it’s not the service parts we use, but the quality of service our customers receive. Just because the businesses in your area have a poor reputation, don’t put us all in the same boat, you’ve got the corner on the 1% of the bad ones.
PS: I do agree with Slomo, as my 50+ years of work in this industry tells me that if a plug carbons up after 5 hours of use, you have a fuel/air mixture problem.

Rivets said:

Sir Mowzalot you can service your equipment with what ever parts and lubes you want, because if they work for you keep using them, but I do take exception with your comment and attitude about service techs and dealers. Your misconception as why they use certain products is totally off base. Good techs and dealerships don’t use subpar parts to keep customers coming back, that will ruin our reputation very quickly and most would be our ob business in short order. In fact the best ones really don’t want to see customers comeback because of a bad part. The small family owned business I just retired from has been around for 66 years with the founder still stopping in at the age of 96 about once a week. We use Champion plugs, dino-oil, and other products which you call “crap” when doing our service work. If these products are so bad, why would we have the reputation and awards of being the best service dealer in the area. I can tell you it’s not the service parts we use, but the quality of service our customers receive. Just because the businesses in your area have a poor reputation, don’t put us all in the same boat, you’ve got the corner on the 1% of the bad ones.
PS: I do agree with Slomo, as my 50+ years of work in this industry tells me that if a plug carbons up after 5 hours of use, you have a fuel/air mixture problem.

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I was just kidding. I have a family member with 40 years in the business as well. He gives me crap about my fanatical maintenance habits too. I've been that way since I let someone change my oil one afternoon, had a street race that night, won, but threw a rod in the process. Oh the sound gives me shivers. The dumb kid put 10w-30 dino in a 383 stroker during a hot summer. I owned it as my fault, and have done all my own maintenance and top end engine work since. If you want to laugh I actually looked to see if I could upgrade the ignition system on this thing with a motorcycle MSD kit, lol. Once the warranty ends of course. I'm just not your normal customer.

You can say “I’m just kidding” after I called you out, but you can’t are back what you said. Good repair shops and techs are hard to find and when people who think they have all the answers, they make it difficult for us to help people who put their trust in us. With the attitude you portrayed do you really think I want to work on your equipment? No, I’ve got too many customers who trust me, that keep me busy even though I’m retired. Good Luck with your NKG’s, I hope you never get a bad one.

Rivets said:

You can say “I’m just kidding” after I called you out, but you can’t are back what you said. Good repair shops and techs are hard to find and when people who think they have all the answers, they make it difficult for us to help people who put their trust in us. With the attitude you portrayed do you really think I want to work on your equipment? No, I’ve got too many customers who trust me, that keep me busy even though I’m retired. Good Luck with your NKG’s, I hope you never get a bad one.

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You're kidding now, right? I assure you, you "calling me out" was never a second thought. You couldn't possibly matter less to me without pharmaceuticals. It's called stating the obvious. Most people got it the first time they read it, but with you I seem to have hit a nerve, lol. Folks can derive from that what they will but I've certainly seen enough to draw my own conclusions.

Well...... looks like we have another " I am the smartest guy in the room and on the internet".

SirKnowzaLot is just entertainment at this point.

SirMowzalot said:

The Champions are in the NGK boxes and sitting in my tool box because I already planned to compare them should the problem return. I also said under 5 hours because I was too lazy to go check the meter. It was more like 2.5-3 at the time of the swap. I have the exact number in a log out in the garage. I've run it 2 more times since the swap and no issues so far. I only ran it 3 times when I decided to address the rough idle. Not to mention plugs aren't the only indicator of an AF issue. There's no fuel smell, and this thing does wheelies on level grade so no acceleration issues. When there's an AF issue there are typically multiple symptoms. That's just not the case here.

But by all means, you folks can keep hoping I experience a problem to validate your own beliefs. I won't, which validates my decision to never allow third parties to touch my engines small, auto, or otherwise. But one thing to note. I knew the engine had Champions the day I brought it home. Because when I brought it home I ordered all the required parts for the next few maintenance intervals. They're in a box in a cabinet standing in my garage. That's just how I operate. I left the Champions in already expecting a problem, but hoping I'd be proven wrong. I gave them a chance. They gave me what I expected. Now I have to order another pair of NGKs for next year.

But hey, since you all make your living on how often a customer brings a machine in for service, keep right on using those Champions, lol. Same goes for oil. You keep right on using the dino-crap, and I'll keep right on using the "unnecessary" Amsoil. I'm about ready to do my first unnecessary oil change as well. Because waiting 25 hours like my dealer said on a brand new engine with dino in it makes about as much sense as waiting to get shot before putting on a vest.

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commenting on the oil change, it is best to use Dino oil during break in, because the piston rings will take longer to seat with synthetic, since it tends to be slippery-er since the rings need to bed into the cylinder., since synthetic tends to make the parts slip on the oil as opposed to conventional... once the parts develop a wear pattern together, then you can go to synthetic. and AmsOil is definitely a good choice for synthetic..
just my honest opinion..

Well I guess I lose this one, as I’m definitely not close to the smartest guy on this forum. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn a couple of years ago, if anyone remembers that commercial.

Scrubcadet10 said:

commenting on the oil change, it is best to use Dino oil during break in, because the piston rings will take longer to seat with synthetic, since it tends to be slippery-er since the rings need to bed into the cylinder., since synthetic tends to make the parts slip on the oil as opposed to conventional... once the parts develop a wear pattern together, then you can go to synthetic. and AmsOil is definitely a good choice for synthetic..
just my honest opinion..

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I'd have to disagree about synthetic oils being slicker. Nothing meant by my last statement.

My reasoning is there are a lot of cars on factory fills of synthetic oil. Think what you are referring to is an old and inaccurate wives' tale.

Modern dino oil is pretty darm good compared to oil from the 50's and 60's. Most are group 3, very good stuff. In the States, synthetic oil printed on the bottle means nothing. In Europe is truely does. Thanks to the idiots and our lame court system, companies can call it synthetic with hardly any real synthetic anything inside. Notice how cheap Mobil 1 is at walmart? Now go price Redline (real synthetic). See the massive price difference? Course you could say walmart makes them lower the price to keep our prices down.......

Use dino at break in or after. We will never notice a difference other than lightening your wallet.

slomo

SirMowzalot said:

You're kidding now, right? I assure you, you "calling me out" was never a second thought. You couldn't possibly matter less to me without pharmaceuticals. It's called stating the obvious. Most people got it the first time they read it, but with you I seem to have hit a nerve, lol. Folks can derive from that what they will but I've certainly seen enough to draw my own conclusions.

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So what does your new plug look like now? I bet a wooden nickle it is black. But hey I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

slomo

I'm just referring to what i've experienced ... briggs intek 19hp. "Hey, i put i BRAND new engine on my mower, it's blowing quite a bit of smoke at start up" "what oil are you using?"
"*starts with M ends with 1 10W30",,, "change it out to a good quality 10W-30 conventional oil and a new filter and call me back" ...........few days later, "hey i changed the oil to conventional, it blew smoke on the first start up, virtually none since... hasn't blown smoke near as much since i switched. just a slight puff". (valvoline 1030 was used if i remember right).... "Okay, great, glad i could help"
i believe he got to around 8 hours of mowing time and it completely quit burping out a little puff of smoke with the conventional.... he switched to Synthetic at 20 or 25 hours.... and it did fine.

Scrubcadet10 said:

I'm just referring to what i've experienced ... briggs intek 19hp. "Hey, i put i BRAND new engine on my mower, it's blowing quite a bit of smoke at start up" "what oil are you using?"
"*starts with M ends with 1 10W30",,, "change it out to a good quality 10W-30 conventional oil and a new filter and call me back" ...........few days later, "hey i changed the oil to conventional, it blew smoke on the first start up, virtually none since... hasn't blown smoke near as much since i switched. just a slight puff". (valvoline 1030 was used if i remember right).... "Okay, great, glad i could help"
i believe he got to around 8 hours of mowing time and it completely quit burping out a little puff of smoke with the conventional.... he switched to Synthetic at 20 or 25 hours.... and it did fine.

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All engines will puff when new. Rings are not seated yet. Not seeing any evidence of an oil issue.

slomo

I know that... that intek puffed what i would say "more than normal" with synthetic... after he switched to Conventional, not near as much, then eventually none.

Scrubcadet10 said:

that one puffed even more with synthetic.

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I read what you said but the hours and oil swap came into play. Show me a guy that initially filled with synthetic with 10 hours plus and smokes. Synthetic oils actually seal the rings better so they say.... Keep rolling the dice.

slomo

slomo said:

Keep rolling the dice.

slomo

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Hammermechanicman said:

Well...... looks like we have another " I am the smartest guy in the room and on the internet".

SirKnowzaLot is just entertainment at this point.

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Yeah because who am I to question a guy that never actually uses the equipment he works on, right?

Never said I knew it all. I posted an "FYI" thread. You're the one that showed up defending a notoriously inferior product with years of experience "fixing" and never actually using equipment. Your "experience" doing it wrong just doesn't impress me. Get over it.

You come to a forum that most people come to for help of some sort help with a problem. You on the other hand show up and state how inferior champion plugs are and how they always fail. And then, of course, the ones in your new mower fail. You stated the engine ran rough and the plugs were black. That would indicate a misfire from carbon tracking. Why were the plugs carbon fouled? It is generally caused by either an improper fuel air mixture which you say is not the case or the plugs are not operated in the self cleaning range of approx 1000*F. Which means either the factory installed the wrong heat range plugs or you were not running the engine hard enough to get the plugs to the proper temp. I would love to hear your scientific analysis on why all champion plugs are junk.
You state that people on this forum that service equipment for profit are doing a disservice to their customers if we don't do it the way you think it should be done. That is called arrogance. Oh yeah, i have about 30 things with small engines and i would bet some are as old as you and the all run fine. And most of my customers i have had for years. If the crap plugs and oil i use don't work why do they keep bringing them back every year for annual maint? Like i said, i consider you entertainment. I am bored this morning drinking my coffee an i need some entertainment before i go out and put some more inferior spark plugs and crap dino oil in some poor unsuspecting customer's engine because i just don't care.

Have a nice day?

Still waiting on the new spark plug report. Guess we will never see his new wonder plugs. Post up some pictures of your NHRA spark plugs.

Struck the sucker out to clean up my act. Trying to be polite.

slomo

This one has run its course. Thread locked, at least for now.

Thread is re-opened.

Reminder to keep the discussions polite. Thanks.

Thank you for reopening this thread. This post is for all the DIY guys out there. Which brand of plug you use in your equipment is a 99% personal choice. If one brand works better for you, go with it. Experienced techs do use different brands of plugs on different pieces of equipment because of heat range availability and individual preferences, and there are those brands we swear by and those we swear at. This thread was started because the OP had his plug carbon up after 5 hours of use. 85% of the time the cause for this happening is a problem in the fuel system, engine running too rich. 10% of the time is a bad coil or triggering module not providing enough voltage or firing at the wrong time. 4% of the time is plug is bad or the wrong heat range. 1% of the time it is a wieid combination of all of these. You must do the proper troubleshooting before throwing parts at the engine and experienced techs will tell you to start with the fuel system. If you run into this problem I suggest that you look at the fuel system first before throwing parts at it because anyone tells you a certain brand is bad, without proof. That being said, the choice is yours as how you want to proceed. If you have questions ask a service tech who you trust, and never assume that what you find on the World Wide Web is gospel.

Hammermechanicman said:

You come to a forum that most people come to for help of some sort help with a problem. You on the other hand show up and state how inferior champion plugs are and how they always fail. And then, of course, the ones in your new mower fail. You stated the engine ran rough and the plugs were black. That would indicate a misfire from carbon tracking. Why were the plugs carbon fouled? It is generally caused by either an improper fuel air mixture which you say is not the case or the plugs are not operated in the self cleaning range of approx 1000*F. Which means either the factory installed the wrong heat range plugs or you were not running the engine hard enough to get the plugs to the proper temp. I would love to hear your scientific analysis on why all champion plugs are junk.
You state that people on this forum that service equipment for profit are doing a disservice to their customers if we don't do it the way you think it should be done. That is called arrogance. Oh yeah, i have about 30 things with small engines and i would bet some are as old as you and the all run fine. And most of my customers i have had for years. If the crap plugs and oil i use don't work why do they keep bringing them back every year for annual maint? Like i said, i consider you entertainment. I am bored this morning drinking my coffee an i need some entertainment before i go out and put some more inferior spark plugs and crap dino oil in some poor unsuspecting customer's engine because i just don't care.

Have a nice day?

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Hmm, where should I start.

Hammermechanicman said:

You come to a forum that most people come to for help of some sort help with a problem. You on the other hand show up and state how inferior champion plugs are and how they always fail.

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I showed up here looking for information on how to globally disable safety switches on a Cub Cadet so I can verify that's the problem before wasting my time tracking down the specific issue. THAT was my first post. My post with respect to Champion plugs was a solution to a problem. Champion plugs just happened to be the problem that was solved. NGK's still running strong by the way, of course. The reason why one would post things like that is to save folks the time of creating a thread, and enduring some of the various "personalities" on this board, while they wait for a useful response that could show up anywhere from 3 minutes to 3 weeks later. But last I checked, I'm not really obligated to explain myself to you, nor is anyone else. It would seem to me that you need to understand that.

Hammermechanicman said:

You stated the engine ran rough and the plugs were black. That would indicate a misfire from carbon tracking. Why were the plugs carbon fouled? It is generally caused by either an improper fuel air mixture which you say is not the case or the plugs are not operated in the self cleaning range of approx 1000*F. Which means either the factory installed the wrong heat range plugs or you were not running the engine hard enough to get the plugs to the proper temp. I would love to hear your scientific analysis on why all champion plugs are junk.

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Hmm, you obviously don't have much experience with this particular engine, or ignition systems in general.

The very LAST thing I want to fool with on this engine is air/fuel mixture. With respect to carbon it comes from numerous things. One of them being weak firing. Now this could be caused by the ignition coils, or it could be caused by the plugs. The ignition system is under warranty. The plugs aren't. The ignition system is far more difficult to change. The plugs take 5 minutes including gapping. Keep in mind I noticed this problem with around 2 hours on the machine. Maybe it's not even a problem. Maybe it's the standard. Well, it's not up to my standards. So with all that in mind the plugs were the first thing to be addressed. Problem solved. Why? Because when Champion plugs are involved 9.9 out of 10 it's the plugs. Your experience while it may differ and is certainly entertaining doesn't negate mine. But I understand where it comes from. You're used to wrenching on lawn mowers that don't put much wear on things. I installed my first engine while still in high school, and raced quite for many years after. So I learned which brands are up to the task, and which ones aren't. Can you run Champions in a lawn mower? Certainly. You just have to lower the air/fuel mixture to a level they can handle, thereby robbing horsepower from the engine. Where I come from that's just not done.

Hammermechanicman said:

You state that people on this forum that service equipment for profit are doing a disservice to their customers if we don't do it the way you think it should be done. That is called arrogance. Oh yeah, i have about 30 things with small engines and i would bet some are as old as you and the all run fine. And most of my customers i have had for years. If the crap plugs and oil i use don't work why do they keep bringing them back every year for annual maint?

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No, I stated that people like you that operate on misinformation disguised by tenure shouldn't be taken seriously. That's called the power of observation. Combustion engines for some odd reason are a complete mystery to many people. The fact that you have regular customers is great, but doesn't impress me. It just means you know a lot of people that probably aren't good with a wrench. The fact that I don't have regular customers just means I'd rather do something else professionally for more money. As for your 30 things with small engines that I highly doubt are older than I am, I'm sure they'll run forever. Because you seem to make it a practice to run small engines at less than their full potential by robbing them of horsepower as a standard practice. Thanks for making my point.

Hammermechanicman said:

Like i said, i consider you entertainment.

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I'm sure you feel the same about education. Thanks for sharing.

Hammermechanicman said:

I am bored this morning drinking my coffee an i need some entertainment before i go out and put some more inferior spark plugs and crap dino oil in some poor unsuspecting customer's engine because i just don't care.

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Great, and then you can sit around the camp fire with your customers that wouldn't know a spark plug from a banana and woo them with your stories of engine displacement reduction. Have fun! Cheers!?

Sirmowsalot your quote, “My post with respect to Champion plugs was a solution to a problem.” Is exactly right. You had a problem and found a solution. I have agreed with you that a bad plug could have been the cause of the problem, end of story. If you would have stopped right there this thread would be dead. Instead you have to make claims about spark plugs that are not facts, just assumptions based on your experience. On top of that you then go one step farther and state the professionals in this field are only trying to line their pockets by not agreeing with your assumptions. That is where the problem lies. This forum was set up to provide individuals with possible answers to problems they have with landscaping equipment and the motors and engines used to power them. Members ask questions and other members try to provide answers. Members trying to provide answers come from a variety of backgrounds. 1. They may be a person who had the same problem and offers the solution they found. 2. They may be the person who loves to tinker and has seen the problem. 3. They may be the person who is trying to make a little extra money out of his garage, because he is handy and the neighbors come to him for help. 4. They may be the service tech or owner who has the training and experience to do it professionally. This is the group which you are spouting unsubstantiated assumptions about. A service tech or owner have years of training and experience, which you don’t see. They have been required to attend yearly update training sessions on all equipment they do warranty work on. You state that they just work on equipment that they don’t have to use. Totally wrong, any service tech worth a dime has been behind the equipment both in testing and hands on hours. Have you ever had to repair a piece of equipment in the field? Most of us have worked on equipment in conditions that you wouldn’t do to help a friend. We are the professionals in our industry and all we ask is that we be treated the same way you expect us to treat you. Yes, just like you found a bad plug, there are the 5% in this industry that are bad. In your case you assume a bad plug means bad brand and a bad service tech means a bad industry. SHAME ON YOU.

These statements are facts the can easily be backed up. Your statement that replacing a plug being carbon fouled, with another plug could be a solution, is a fact, which can be backup by your experience in this case. Saying all plugs of a certain brand are bad and junk, is not a fact, and you have no way to back up your statement. This is just your opinion, which you have the right to state as opinions, not facts. If you continue to bad mouth products or members, because of your assumptions not facts, I will continue to educate others on the reasons you are wrong. If you clearly state that what you post is just your opinion, you‘ll get no guff from me. Finally read my signature and you’ll see why I can make these statements of fact.

Ok, enough with this silliness. I watch this guy every so often because he's a bit of a character and I enjoy his videos. He has a great video that covers this topic fairly well, and it's done with pure facts. If you really want to understand why one would upgrade plugs instead of starving the engine for fuel, this should explain why.

Simple reply. Do you truly believe that this guy is spouting facts, which apply to all products of a particular brand? I would have thought that a person as intelligent as you profess could find a better source to base your assumptions on. I can understand why you post assumptions based on opinions. The two of you then must subscribe to the theory that everything you see and read on the internet is absolutely fact and true. Should I then assume you are a paid spokesman for NKG? No, because I’m a little smarter than a spark plug And at least one other person n this planet.

Rivets said:

Simple reply. Do you truly believe that this guy is spouting facts, which apply to all products of a particular brand? I would have thought that a person as intelligent as you profess could find a better source to base your assumptions on. I can understand why you post assumptions based on opinions. The two of you then must subscribe to the theory that everything you see and read on the internet is absolutely fact and true. Should I then assume you are a paid spokesman for NKG? No, because I’m a little smarter than a spark plug And at least one other person n this planet.

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I didn't get that information from Scotty. I searched for a video on the subject because I was tired of responding. The Champion thing is fairly common knowledge, as is the difference between standard, platinum, and iridium plugs. I can't even believe I'm engaged in this nonsense to tell you the truth. But I'll tell ya what, it ends now.

And everyone must remember that things you find while searching the internet are absolutely accurate, fact and true. Never doubt them. Why stop now, this is entertaining and I haven’t had this much fun since I retired from the classroom.

SirMowzalot said:

the difference between standard, platinum, and iridium plugs

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So what is this difference all about? Please explain how these benefit a mower engine?

In a mower engine, they will oil/fuel foul long before the gap wears negating the need for platinum and iridium plugs. Standard copper is more than enough. Been around for decades in millions of vehicles.

slomo

slomo said:

So what is this difference all about? Please explain how these benefit a mower engine?

In a mower engine, they will oil/fuel foul long before the gap wears negating the need for platinum and iridium plugs. Standard copper is more than enough. Been around for decades in millions of vehicles.

slomo

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Well let me ask you a question. What happens when you adjust the air/fuel mixture limiting the fuel going into the cylinder to accommodate a colder plug?

I'll answer to save time. You decrease horsepower. You know how everyone says the 27hp Briggs engine really isn't 27? Well it sure isn't if you cut the fuel to accommodate cooler plugs. Using a hotter plug, such as a platinum or iridium, will enable you to feed more gas to the cylinder thereby increasing horsepower.

This is not rocket science. It's the basic physics of the combustion engine. We done yet?

No. Let me get this straight. To get more horsepower from an engine you need to add more fuel and run a hotter plug. That means if I use a colder plug and decrease the amount of fuel I put in a cyLinder, I may lose a little horsepower, but will save money. In the push mower and lawn tractor, plus most other small engine equipment, I doubt most consumers would notice a difference and they would be saving money. That’s the reason they shouldn’t have their equipment serviced by a trained technician, right. Now I have a question for you. With the vast majority of today’s small engines using non adjustable carbs, do I have to spend more money on an adjustable carb? Or do I have to have the jets punched in the carbs I now have by a trained technician, who you say are just trying to get more money from me? I think I’ll just stick to the spark plug which the engine manufacturer says will work best for the engine I have and not spend more money. Wait a minute, what am I saying? I’m a trained technician and doing that will be taking money out of my pocket. To all the DIY guys out there, disregard what I’m saying, as I’ve get some adjustable carbs and know how to punch carbs with my micro drills. I now have learned how to get more money from your pocket. Glad they reopened this thread, as I’ve learned how to make more money today.

This is more entertaining than the Funny Picture thread.

Rivets said:

This is more entertaining than the Funny Picture thread.

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Well that's insulting??

SirMowzalot said:

Well let me ask you a question. What happens when you adjust the air/fuel mixture limiting the fuel going into the cylinder to accommodate a colder plug?

I'll answer to save time. You decrease horsepower. You know how everyone says the 27hp Briggs engine really isn't 27? Well it sure isn't if you cut the fuel to accommodate cooler plugs. Using a hotter plug, such as a platinum or iridium, will enable you to feed more gas to the cylinder thereby increasing horsepower.

This is not rocket science. It's the basic physics of the combustion engine. We done yet?

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Most mowers can't decrease the fuel mix.

Decreasing fuel to accommodate a colder plug makes no sense in a mower.

Adding fuel doesn't increase hp. If the ratio gets too fat you lose hp. Leaner is meaner as the old saying goes.

Plat and Irid plugs are not hotter. Sure you can buy a hotter heat range if you want. Those precious metals have nothing to do with heat range.

Apparently we are not done yet.

slomo

Still waiting to see your plugs sirmowzalot. So far you have proved nothing. Post up some pictures of your new plugs.

slomo

Doing my best to just bite my tongue.

We don’t want any blood, this is any education site.

Firstly,
Your friend Scotty sounds like a mechanic who has finally worked out he can make more money from presenting You-Tube videos than he can fixing cars.
Most of what he said was total trash apart from the line " no fancy plugs will magically increase Hp or give better fuel economy".

I ride motorcycles from the early 1900's and have been doing so for 50 years.
The reason they were made in 2 pieces is because the fuels were poor the clearences in engines were huge and most ran total loss lubrication systems so the plugs carbon fouled a lot .
Nothing to do with the "softness of Cu" and I have some spark plugs that would have done way over 500,000 miles because you just keep cleaning them then adjusting the gap till there is no electrode left.
And on these plugs the electrode is usually Be - Cu not 99.99 Cu .
For the same reason as mowers not have forged in ends on tie rods rather than a replaceable one , the 2 piece plug got replaced with the one piece plug.
And the developement of stable high temperature alloys for heads facilitated using a smaller diameter spark plug while the limiting of space within the heads of OHV engines where exhaist valves were huge before WWII forced the developement of high hot strength valve steels pushed the requirement for smaller plugs as well.
Nothing to do with the strength of the copper at all .
And the story is the same for Pt & Ir .
The rate at which the electrode errodes has nothing to do with the hardness of the metal used . It is all about the crystal structure & orientation as by the way is hardness which is a function of the number & orientation of the slip planes within the grains .

Pt plugs came from WWII as well to prevent carbon fouling and to resist melting when engines were over reved at 30,000 feet when under lean burn conditions & running extremely hot, then had to be able to run in rich burning conditions found at ground level , particularly at take off .

Then he flapped on about hard to reach plugs, well there is a special bevel drive spark plug made for just those jobs.
If he was not so cheap he would have . I have one we bought it to do the B bank on the RR 6.75L V 8 engines fitted to the late Clouds, Shadaows, Spirits, Spurs & original Azure .

As for one brand over another that is and always will be trash.
during my undergraduate years I worked at the Champion spark plug factory at Alexandria NSW.
The same machine made the plugs for Champion, NGK & Lodge as well as all of the store / marque plugs like Motocraft & Autolite .

Now the real "problem" with Champions is they have a coarse heat range grading.
If you check them against NGK or Bosh you will see that the champion often spans up to 5 heat ranges for the other plugs and in many cases it gets used right on the limit of it's range so any other engine problems will cause the plug to fail.

As for fitting Pt or Ir plugs in a MOWER engine, nothing wrong with it if they are within the correct heat range other than being a waste of money.
Same as running on 100 octane fuel, won't make any difference other than costing more money .
And synthetic oils , same story .

The other problem with standard plugs is there is next to no profit in making them so the spark plug companies push the more expensive plugs endlessly and all of this marketing does sink into the back of peoples brains.
A std plug would be lucky to make the plug factory 1¢ of profit where as exotic plugs would bring in $1 to $ 3 of profit so a no brainer which plug the factory wants people to use .

Now if this was the Ferrai , Lotus . F1 or other forum dealing with engines that are being pushed right to the edge of their limits then your arguements would have some merit.
However this is a mower forum
Mowers use the cheapest lowest capacity least stressed engines it is possible to make.
Quality is not a design trait in any of them now days it is all about supplying them to the mower companies for 0.5¢ less than their competitors .
As such they will always have standard plugs fitted and there is a better than average chance that the plugs are supplied for free in the hope that the 1 plug fitted to the new engine will result in 10 to 20 bought during the engines service life which would go a long way to explaining the very short plug replacements recommended in most engine manuals.

FWIW I have around 150 commercially used mowers in my service run and I would be lucky to replace the plugs in them any earlier than 500 hours and some have been running the same plugs for the 8 years I have been running the business .
Hand helds are a different story but some of them are running near the limit of the plugs and at 10,000 + rpm slight differences in the plug does make a difference.
At 4000 rpm you could just about use a rusty nail shoved through a cork .

slomo said:

Still waiting to see your plugs sirmowzalot. So far you have proved nothing. Post up some pictures of your new plugs.

slomo

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slomo said:

Most mowers can't decrease the fuel mix.

Decreasing fuel to accommodate a colder plug makes no sense in a mower.

Adding fuel doesn't increase hp. If the ratio gets too fat you lose hp. Leaner is meaner as the old saying goes.

Plat and Irid plugs are not hotter. Sure you can buy a hotter heat range if you want. Those precious metals have nothing to do with heat range.

Apparently we are not done yet.

slomo

Click to expand...

Hmm,

slomo said:

Still waiting to see your plugs sirmowzalot. So far you have proved nothing. Post up some pictures of your new plugs.

slomo

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If you seriously think I'm going to take plugs out of my machine for a photo op it's gonna be a long wait, lol. Like next season. Because at this point I'm still not having any problems. All I've done since the plug swap is drain the cat-piss Briggs tries to pass off as oil and put in Amsoil 15w50.

Aside from that your earlier comment about colder plugs tells me we're not really at the same level here. I'm not trying to be insulting, but you might want to do some research on plugs. If you look around you'll find various resources comparing the different types from a technical perspective, and situations where they tend to work best. A lot of folks seem to think iridium plugs are about longevity. Yes, they do last longer, but that's not why I use them. I only have one old car that I don't bother changing the plugs on and that's an old CR-V that couldn't get out of its own way without a rocket strapped to the roof. Not to mention my kid drives it. So I just don't care, lol. The slower the better. The newer cars will get swapped at 20k miles.

I have to say, I'm in awe that this is a 6 page thread. To recap, I noticed a problem, and replaced a single (well, 2) part that solved the problem. That problem has not returned, and with my my maintenance habits likely never will.

What the hell are we talkin' about here? lol. I'm reading stories about decades of experience and ownership of hundreds of machines written by folks trying to tell me the action I took to solve a problem, that so far with equal run-time has been proven by the absence of the main symptom which was a rough idle, to have solved the problem, didn't really solve the problem. Why? Because bargain basement parts from a company that should have long closed are perfectly fine, and to prove that we're going to absolutely discuss this to death while my engine not only purrs like a kitten but starts faster since the plug change too. Really? I mean come on. I'm very sorry if I've shattered anyone's belief system but it is what it is. I look at engines from the perspective of someone that got pulled over so much for street racing the local cops stopped writing me tickets and watched the races, lol. Are my habits to the point of overkill? Certainly. But try as I may I can't recall anyone ever having engine trouble from excessive maintenance and feeding it better parts and consumables than it deserved. Just be happy Borla doesn't sell an exhaust kit for it and you don't live next me if they did, lol. Because oh yeah, I probably would. My god, let it go.

Cold plug or hot, you choose. Now if we are talking nitrous or some other non mower engine deal then yes experiment with heat range. Just get the OEM plug and your mower engine will be fine.

Those precious metals like platinum are about gap longevity only. No other reason for them.

No doubt I am not on your level. I'm at the ground floor for sure. Need to learn a lot more. Ears and eyes are open.

slomo

Thank you for some great entertainment.