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Ignition coil

#1

S

stevieb50

I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit. IMG_20230813_165057224~2.jpg


#2

B

Bertrrr

The important part of the coil is on the open end - if it fits up to the flywheel that's all you need really - does the length stop the cover from fitting up? Wouldn't recommend grinding on the coil , might change up the cover if it's touching off .


#3

H

hlw49

Post model, spec and serial no, of your engine and the part no. you got.


#4

StarTech

StarTech

One thing that coil does not appears to be genuine Kohler coil. This how Kohler marks their coils. Also the positioning the electrical terminals.
1692013257512.png
Second if the engine's cylinder cooling fins are inferring with the fit of the 2-1/16 coil frames then you grind them down until have the needed clearance. Don't grind on the coils. Some of the very early coils [25 584 03-s and 25 584 11-S] were only 1-11/16 front to back. If you old coil was 25 584 15-S it was superseded to 25 584 36-S as were 03-S and 11-S.

BTW the 24 584 36-S coil current lists for $89.41 ea.


#5

V

VegetiveSteam

Like Star mentioned, are those genuine Kohler parts? Kohler has been using the 24 584 36-S since 2003 and while they are physically larger than what they replace, I've never known of them not fitting. I assume they are hitting the intake manifold? Can't grind on that.


#6

S

stevieb50

Bertrrr said:
The important part of the coil is on the open end - if it fits up to the flywheel that's all you need really - does the length stop the cover from fitting up? Wouldn't recommend grinding on the coil , might change up the cover if it's touching off .
Click to expand...
As you can see in the picture the depth Bigger so the backside of the coil is the exhaust manifold


#7

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Like Star mentioned, are those genuine Kohler parts? Kohler has been using the 24 584 36-S since 2003 and while they are physically larger than what they replace, I've never known of them not fitting. I assume they are hitting the intake manifold? Can't grind on that.
Click to expand...
Yes they are hitting the intake manifold actually the exhaust


#8

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Like Star mentioned, are those genuine Kohler parts? Kohler has been using the 24 584 36-S since 2003 and while they are physically larger than what they replace, I've never known of them not fitting. I assume they are hitting the intake manifold? Can't grind on that.
Click to expand...
Our local Kohler dealer wanted $100 for one coil versus two of them for 36 bucks on Amazon yes they are a bit bigger therefore it’s hitting I believe the exhaust manifold pipe but also
Bertrrr said:
The important part of the coil is on the open end - if it fits up to the flywheel that's all you need really - does the length stop the cover from fitting up? Wouldn't recommend grinding on the coil , might change up the cover if it's touching off .
Click to expand...
The length is making it hit the exhaust manifold even though the part is supposedly correct and I’ve called all around it’s definitely bigger than the original. The left side fits fine but the right side the back corner which is circled in the picture rubs up against the exhaust manifold or intake manifold I’m not sure which one I just need to know if I could grind a little bit of that park that circled in the picture to make it fit it wouldn’t be much probably a couple millimeters


#9

S

stevieb50

Why does it keep saying upload file is too large it’s a simple picture that cropped to the smallest and I can add a picture


#10

S

stevieb50

Bertrrr said:
The important part of the coil is on the open end - if it fits up to the flywheel that's all you need really - does the length stop the cover from fitting up? Wouldn't recommend grinding on the coil , might change up the cover if it's touching off .
Click to expand...
It’s not the cover it’s hitting it’s the exhaust or intake manifold pipe I wouldn’t be grinding the front part that touches the flywheel it would just be the back corner a couple millimeters grind it off to fit from stop hitting the manifold pipe


#11

S

stevieb50

Backside of the ignition coil Hitting the exhaust manifold pipe


#12

StarTech

StarTech

If they are truely hitting the exhaust manifold then you are definely installing them in the wrong place as the exhaust is on the bottom of the cylinder heads.


#13

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
Backside of the ignition coil Hitting the exhaust manifold
Click to expand...
I’m guessing those are aftermarket modules. Kohler doesn’t typically add the -S to the number on he part itself as you can see in the pic Star posted. Normally the -S is only on the box not the part itself.


#14

V

VegetiveSteam

I don’t think it matters for fitment but are you mounting them with the two terminals on top? I did find where Kohler increased the size of the module when they superseded the 25 584 11-S to the 15-S and that was sometime in 1999.


#15

B

bertsmobile1

stevieb50 said:
Why does it keep saying upload file is too large it’s a simple picture that cropped to the smallest and I can add a picture
Click to expand...
IT is not the size in inches but the number of pixels and the format
Most phones store their photos in RAW format
Web servers "see" Raw format as being near 4 times the size they actually are
So download the images into your computer
Resize them to 12" along the longest edge
Set the format to JPG
Then set the resolution to 72 DPI and save the image with a new name
Then drag that image icon into the Image loader on the forum


#16

B

bertsmobile1

I have said this so many times it gets very boreing.
Only ever buy aftermarket parts from one of the suppliers who sell certified replacement parts
So Stens, Rotary, Prime Line or Oregon.
\Otherwise you are just pissing your money up the wall buying parts that will not fit and if they do then usually at least 50% will be defective.


#17

S

stevieb50

bertsmobile1 said:
IT is not the size in inches but the number of pixels and the format
Most phones store their photos in RAW format
Web servers "see" Raw format as being near 4 times the size they actually are
So download the images into your computer
Resize them to 12" along the longest edge
Set the format to JPG
Then set the resolution to 72 DPI and save the image with a new name
Then drag that image icon into the Image loader on the forum
Click to expand...
I'm actually doing this from my iPhone


#18

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
I’m guessing those are aftermarket modules. Kohler doesn’t typically add the -S to the number on he part itself as you can see in the pic Star posted. Normally the -S is only on the box not the part itself.
Click to expand...
Yes they are aftermarket coils the local Kohler dealer wanted $100 per coil and I got two of them for $35 on Amazon and I always wondered about the s I asked the dealer about that and they said it means single


#19

S

stevieb50

StarTech said:
If they are truely hitting the exhaust manifold then you are definely installing them in the wrong place as the exhaust is on the bottom of the cylinder heads.
Click to expand...
Then it would be the intake manifold


#20

S

stevieb50

bertsmobile1 said:
IT is not the size in inches but the number of pixels and the format
Most phones store their photos in RAW format
Web servers "see" Raw format as being near 4 times the size they actually are
So download the images into your computer
Resize them to 12" along the longest edge
Set the format to JPG
Then set the resolution to 72 DPI and save the image with a new name
Then drag that image icon into the Image loader on the forum
Click to expand...
I’m Actually doing this from an iPhone


#21

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Then it would be the intake manifold
Click to expand...


#22

S

stevieb50

StarTech said:
If they are truely hitting the exhaust manifold then you are definely installing them in the wrong place as the exhaust is on the bottom of the cylinder heads.
Click to expand...
Then it’s probably the intake manifold lol I’m trying to post a picture but it says file too large and I can crop the screenshot any smaller than I can right now


#23

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Then it’s probably the intake manifold lol I’m trying to post a picture but it says file too large and I can crop the screenshot any smaller than I can right now
Click to expand...


#24

B

bertsmobile1

stevieb50 said:
I'm actually doing this from my iPhone
Click to expand...
That is your problem
Phone images will always be seen as being too large


#25

V

VegetiveSteam

Kohler Moduels.jpg
This is out of the Kohler CV twin manual so as you can see the fact that your new module is larger than the original is correct. Kohler did make that change. I don't believe it being an Amazon part is why it won't mount. It may why it doesn't work after you get it mounted or why it only lasts one season but the new design was significantly larger than the original and I do remember this issue coming up but can't remember the solution. If I remember correctly, it affected such a small number of engines Kohler never offered a bulletin about it. I was asking about it being aftermarket for a different reason that has nothing to do with the part not fitting.

Can you answer these 3 things for me?

Can you give me the engine serial number or at least the first two digits?
Does your engine use a heavy duty canister style air filter?
What brand of equipment is this engine on? Assuming of course it is the original engine on the original piece of equipment.

I wouldn't worry any more about pictures right now. If you can give me those answers I will see what I can find out for you. I can't make any promises because I'm counting on someone's memory that might not be any better than mine.


#26

V

VegetiveSteam

Okay. I can't believe this wasn't the very first thing I asked you but, what was the reason for replacing the modules in the first place?


#27

T

Tom Taylor

stevieb50 said:
It’s not the cover it’s hitting it’s the exhaust or intake manifold pipe I wouldn’t be grinding the front part that touches the flywheel it would just be the back corner a couple millimeters grind it off to fit from stop hitting the manifold pipe
Click to expand...
Yes you can grind off the offending corner so that it no longer touches the manifold. It will not affect the performance of the coil.


#28

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
View attachment 66314
This is out of the Kohler CV twin manual so as you can see the fact that your new module is larger than the original is correct. Kohler did make that change. I don't believe it being an Amazon part is why it won't mount. It may why it doesn't work after you get it mounted or why it only lasts one season but the new design was significantly larger than the original and I do remember this issue coming up but can't remember the solution. If I remember correctly, it affected such a small number of engines Kohler never offered a bulletin about it. I was asking about it being aftermarket for a different reason that has nothing to do with the part not fitting.

Can you answer these 3 things for me?

Can you give me the engine serial number or at least the first two digits?
Does your engine use a heavy duty canister style air filter?
What brand of equipment is this engine on? Assuming of course it is the original engine on the original piece of equipment.

I wouldn't worry any more about pictures right now. If you can give me those answers I will see what I can find out for you. I can't make any promises because I'm counting on someone's memory that might not be any better than mine.
Click to expand...
At work now I’ll send that when I get home thanks


#29

Fish

Fish

stevieb50 said:
Why does it keep saying upload file is too large it’s a simple picture that cropped to the smallest and I can add a picture
Click to expand...
While you have the picture on your computer screen, go to the dropdown menu "search", and type in "snipping tool" and do a screenshot of it, then upload that one.


#30

S

stevieb50

bertsmobile1 said:
That is your problem
Phone images will always be seen as being too large
Click to expand...
So how do I make phone images smaller to send?


#31

B

bertsmobile1

Drop them into a photo editing app on a computer
use the resize function to make the image 12" along the longest edge
Set the resolution to 72 DPI & format to JPG
Then save the image with a new name
Those images will display up to full screen on a 32" screen and still retain detail
Phones cheat with the way they store image data which makes the file appear to be over 100 times as big as it actually is
The WWW sees only JPEG, TIFF & PDF formats
People are idiots and get impressed with big numbers
I used to work with professional photographers when the transition to digital came in
They would crap on about how fabulous their high resolution cameras were and how much more detail they captured
However in those days Photoshop was only 8 bit so the photographers would get me to take massive hard drives full of the photos they took for retouching
The trade houses would convert the large 16 bit , huge 32 bit and massive 64 bit files back to 8 bit to do the retouching then output back to whatever the original file was.
To do that the soft wear simply added pixels to take the place of all of the one it tossed out in the first place

So camera & phone companies brag endlessly about their 24 Mp 36 Mp 72 Mp cameras when 99% of that can neither be seen without a microscope or printed on any machine ever made and in most cases is BS that the device invents after the CCD has sent the file to storeage .


#32

S

stevieb50

hlw49 said:
Post model, spec and serial no, of your engine and the part no. you got.
Click to expand...

Attachments





#33

S

stevieb50

hlw49 said:
Post model, spec and serial no, of your engine and the part no. you got.
Click to expand...

hlw49 said:
Post model, spec and serial no, of your engine and the part no. you got.
Click to expand...
Part number 24-584-36-S


#34

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Part number 24-584-36-S
Click to expand...

Attachments





#35

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Like Star mentioned, are those genuine Kohler parts? Kohler has been using the 24 584 36-S since 2003 and while they are physically larger than what they replace, I've never known of them not fitting. I assume they are hitting the intake manifold? Can't grind on that.
Click to expand...
Yes they are hitting on the intake manifold and I only need a couple millimeters the other side is fine so that's why I was asking if I just could grind down I guess the cooling fins on the coil a couple millimeters on that back corner


#36

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
Yes they are hitting on the intake manifold and I only need a couple millimeters the other side is fine so that's why I was asking if I just could grind down I guess the cooling fins on the coil a couple millimeters on that back corner
Click to expand...
This was a known issue to Kohler and goes back to 1999 when they changed to the larger module. It only affected a small number of engines at the time so Kohler never offered a bulletin about it. Not many engines had a heavy duty canister air filter back then so I was thinking maybe that is what you had and it probably used a different manifold. From the parts breakdown your engine built in 1998 had what Kohler calls the Wide Area Walk Behind or WAWB filter system on it. I remember the issue but don't remember the solution.

The long and short of it is you have the correct part. The question now, at least in my opinion, is how did Kohler suggest you make it fit? Before I reached out to someone to try and find that answer I wanted to know exactly what you had so I could speak intelligently. With you posting your ID tag I now have that info. Let me send a text and see if this guy's memory is better than mine. I will let you know what I find out.


#37

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
This was a known issue to Kohler and goes back to 1999 when they changed to the larger module. It only affected a small number of engines at the time so Kohler never offered a bulletin about it. Not many engines had a heavy duty canister air filter back then so I was thinking maybe that is what you had and it probably used a different manifold. From the parts breakdown your engine built in 1998 had what Kohler calls the Wide Area Walk Behind or WAWB filter system on it. I remember the issue but don't remember the solution.

The long and short of it is you have the correct part. The question now, at least in my opinion, is how did Kohler suggest you make it fit? Before I reached out to someone to try and find that answer I wanted to know exactly what you had so I could speak intelligently. With you posting your ID tag I now have that info. Let me send a text and see if this guy's memory is better than mine. I will let you know what I find out.
Click to expand...
So I should make my ID tag private? And I am new to this site even though I've joined many years ago I had just bought this riding lawn mower and I noticed it had a Miss fire literally shooting flames out the carburetor. So with everything I read the coils were the best thing to start with now I'm being told once again they are the right part but do not fix because of this year change in engines all I need to know if I can grind down a few millimeters on that back side of the coil where it would be hitting the intake manifold/ the silver u-shaped around the coil is only the cooling fins correct. And feel free to text me if you have my cell phone number through that ID tag thing that I'll have to check on


#38

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
So I should make my ID tag private? And I am new to this site even though I've joined many years ago I had just bought this riding lawn mower and I noticed it had a Miss fire literally shooting flames out the carburetor. So with everything I read the coils were the best thing to start with now I'm being told once again they are the right part but do not fix because of this year change in engines all I need to know if I can grind down a few millimeters on that back side of the coil where it would be hitting the intake manifold/ the silver u-shaped around the coil is only the cooling fins correct. And feel free to text me if you have my cell phone number through that ID tag thing that I'll have to check on
Click to expand...
I meant the engine ID tag. It has nothing to do with any of your personal info.


#39

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
I had just bought this riding lawn mower and I noticed it had a Miss fire literally shooting flames out the carburetor.
Click to expand...
This sounds more like a timing issue which would more point to the Spark Advance Module than the ignition modules. Or even a flywheel key.


#40

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
This sounds more like a timing issue which would more point to the Spark Advance Module than the ignition modules. Or even a flywheel key.
Click to expand...
Got some different coils today same part number but the ones that came today are a perfect fit. So if this does not fix it the spark module will be next 👍


#41

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
Got some different coils today same part number but the ones that came today are a perfect fit. So if this does not fix it the spark module will be next 👍
Click to expand...
Hopefully the new ignition modules take care of it but just FYI, you'll have to find either a used one or someone with old stock as that 24 584 09-S spark advance module has been NLA for 5 years or so. The current fix is a conversion kit that includes a new flywheel and two new ignition modules designed to work with the timing difference of the new flywheel versus what is on your engine now. If needed the part number for that kit is 24 755 308-S and is about $30 more that two new Kohler branded 24 584 36-S modules.


#42

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Hopefully the new ignition modules take care of it but just FYI, you'll have to find either a used one or someone with old stock as that 24 584 09-S spark advance module has been NLA for 5 years or so. The current fix is a conversion kit that includes a new flywheel and two new ignition modules designed to work with the timing difference of the new flywheel versus what is on your engine now. If needed the part number for that kit is 24 755 308-S and is about $30 more that two new Kohler branded 24 584 36-S modules.
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm not having any luck finding that it's spark advanced module. So just my luck I find a lawn mower and it's between years so parts are hard to get. So it's looking more like this thing's going to just be junk versus a new lawn mower for me this spring.


#43

V

VegetiveSteam

If those new modules don't fix anything you still don't know what is wrong with it so don't give up just yet. It could turn out to be something minor. I need to clarify something I mentioned earlier about your symptoms sounding like it could be the Spark Advance Module or SAM. While not impossible for a bad SAM to cause issues like you described it would not be the normal type of failure. Often with a bad SAM the engine will either simply not start or run with lack of power.

Can you notice any signs of the engine ever being run hot?


#44

S

stevieb50

Don’t know much about it. I just bought it. Thinking it was a simple fix. it will idle ok and then when you give it a little gas it’s starts to backfire literally flame shooting out the carb through the air cleaner


#45

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
Don’t know much about it. I just bought it. Thinking it was a simple fix. it will idle ok and then when you give it a little gas it’s starts to backfire literally flame shooting out the carb through the air cleaner
Click to expand...
If you don't have it all back together yet, pull the flywheel and check the flywheel key. The best way to get the flywheel off is to use a harmonic balancer puller. If you have an O'Reilly's Auto Parts, Autozone or similar auto parts store near, you can possibly borrow one with a refundable deposit.


#46

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

What is your spec number?
CV25S-_____?


#47

V

VegetiveSteam

Scrubcadet10 said:
What is your spec number?
CV25S-_____?
Click to expand...
69526


#48

M

MartinR

Bertrrr said:
The important part of the coil is on the open end - if it fits up to the flywheel that's all you need really - does the length stop the cover from fitting up? Wouldn't recommend grinding on the coil , might change up the cover if it's touching off .
Click to expand...
My thoughts are, no, that's not a small amount and you won't have enough meat on the metal left. They are obviously not the correct ones, take them back with the old ones as pattern.


#49

grumpyunk

grumpyunk

QUOTE:"it will idle ok and then when you give it a little gas it’s starts to backfire literally flame shooting out the carb through the air cleaner"

Could be a weak intake valve spring not closing at higher rpms. Could be a sticking valve doing the same. You could remove the valve cover and depress the valve to gauge the spring tension and compare to the exhaust or the other cylinder. Sometimes a lean mixture will cause a backfire, though I have not reasoned that one out to give an explanation.
tom


#50

1

12icer

Did the problem start suddenly or has it progressed?

Could be leanout, timing off from shear key being parially broken, Ground out of wire, bad switch, bad module or grounding back to battery, maybe some more, but those are the main ones I look for.

Hard to trace but just bypass the involved parts you can and pull the bypasses one at a time to eliminate them.


#51

K

kjonxx

Its not going to affect coil function if you grind that corner.


#52

C

Curtisun

If it is not more than 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch it would not hurt to grind off that corner. I have had to modify some before. The critical part is the end near the flywheel and I think it is the intake your are speaking of. I have even had to drill the holes larger because I could not get the correct coil. The thing about buying aftermarket parts is that some of them may look the same but operation wise they are not. But aftermarket parts are cheaper and if your modification stops it from working then you have lost a lot less. This I think is what he has. The pic is not great.
1692448696585.png


#53

J

Joed756

stevieb50 said:
It’s not the cover it’s hitting it’s the exhaust or intake manifold pipe I wouldn’t be grinding the front part that touches the flywheel it would just be the back corner a couple millimeters grind it off to fit from stop hitting the manifold pipe
Click to expand...
It's a $36.00 gamble. Feeling lucky?


#54

R

RevB

stevieb50 said:
I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit. View attachment 66300
Click to expand...
stevieb50 said:
I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit. View attachment 66300
Click to expand...
Coils so seldom "go bad". What does go bad in some cases is the plug cable....specifically the carbon core type. There is a carbon impregnated string that carries the electrical load and often the string's crimp contact with the plug connector isn't the best. I've fixed several with the following: NGK (8328) LB01EP Spark Plug Cap.
They have a screw in the cable end that runs up into the cable making positive contact over about a half inch. And can be removed and reused easily. Bought two coils for a Kawasaki before I cut off the original boot on the original coil and found the real cause.
stevieb50 said:
I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit. View attachment 66300
Click to expand...


#55

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
If you don't have it all back together yet, pull the flywheel and check the flywheel key. The best way to get the flywheel off is to use a harmonic balancer puller. If you have an O'Reilly's Auto Parts, Autozone or similar auto parts store near, you can possibly borrow one with a refundable deposit.
Click to expand...
Ok I'll see about checking that. I am putting it back together today


#56

Tony450

Tony450

There is no way I would grind on the rear of that coil. I would find the correct coil that fits.


#57

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Ok I'll see about checking that. I am putting it back together today
Click to expand...


#58

T

Tommy Mckeown

stevieb50 said:
I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit.
Click to expand...

The short answer that you are looking for is YES, you can grind down the iron portion of the coil. It will not affect the operation of the coil.
stevieb50 said:
View attachment 66300
Click to expand...


#59

T

the.doc

stevieb50 said:
Why does it keep saying upload file is too large it’s a simple picture that cropped to the smallest and I can add a picture
Click to expand...
The file holding the picture is too big to upload to this website. There are places you can find online that will shrink the file size for you. Picture will still look good. Your file's name probably ends .jpg or .png. See what it is and search for a compressor for tha kind of file. E.G. "jpg compressor"


#60

F

first pull

stevieb50 said:
I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit. View attachment 66300
Click to expand...
I wouldn't


#61

T

TobyU

I see you got some coils that fit. It's pouring not the coils anyway but can be SAM but still unlikely.

Also prob not the flywheel key as kohlers use a steel one and not soft aluminum like Briggs. It will prob be fine.

Popping out intake is typically a valve or valvetrain issue and can also be camshaft or compression relief on cam. The ACR giant usually stick and keep valve open but rather fails to work at all and makes engine hard to turn over but this is more of a Briggs problem.

You prob are barely running on both cylinders.

I would get it running and with thick glove and towell or well insulated pliers....pull one plug wire off to see if it runs on the other cyl and then try the other.
My guess is one side has a intake valve stuck open or popped valve seat and it's not noticeable until you get the rpms up and then it's popping through the carb.


#62

J

Johner

stevieb50 said:
I have a Kohler 24 HP Vtwin riding lawnmower with a CV25S motor I bought new ignition coils for it and was told they are the correct ones but they do not fit they are a little bigger I was wondering if I could grind down a little part of the back of the ignition coil for it to fit. View attachment 66300
Click to expand...
Looks like it should fit, are you grinding the side off a little? Right corner?


#63

S

stevieb50

Johner said:
Looks like it should fit, are you grinding the side off a little? Right corner?
Click to expand...
I ended up getting a different coil mind you it was the exact same part number but it was the right fit this time


#64

T

TobyU

stevieb50 said:
I ended up getting a different coil mind you it was the exact same part number but it was the right fit this time
Click to expand...
I'm seeing a lot of these problems recently.
I am certainly a fan of the cheaper priced stuff from the aftermarket manufacturers coming from eBay and Amazon even if they are lower quality because my main experience is that when you're replacing a 15 or 20 year old coil on a Kohler or Briggs etc even if you buy the brand name one today, it will not last the 15 or 20 years the original one did!
So for most things there's very little point in spending top dollar for a brand name one if a cheaper functioning one is available.

BUT THE PROBLEM I'm running into is they seem to be unable to actually duplicate the same parts recently!
Why is this now a problem because they've been doing fine for years?

I received four cables the other day all the same shipment.
Three of these were aftermarket and one was an MTD.
They all have the exact correct part numbers in the listings and we're assured to fit and replace the numbers I was replacing.
The ONLY one that fit was the MTD.
All three of the other ones were not correct.
I was able to use one as it was just 11 inches too long so it was aggravating but it got the job done.
The other two were too short so there was no way to make them work.

This coil situation - I was buying aftermarket Kohler coils five or six years ago if not a little longer and they were fitting perfectly.
I need to put a little bit more effort into making these things fit especially when we're talking about a zone control cable or a traction cable on a walk behind mower that all it really takes is a tape measure.

They don't have to be exactly perfect.
A millimeter here or there wouldn't matter in most cases and in many cases within a quarter inch would be just fine.
You can hold them up next to each other and eyeball it and mark it with your thumb and get it to work just fine.
Apparently they aren't even doing this!!

It's just another word of life's conspiracies.

They actually win either way.
Most of the time, on things like this even when they have return policy, the vast majority do not get sent back and only a few get credited for the full amount.
Often they will offer you a full refund but you have to ship it back to them which cost you more money to send and you're only getting part of your money back.
Because of this a lot just get laid to the side and never get returned.
So it doesn't matter in this case if it fits or not or if you're happy or not because they still got their money.
There is really no reputation etc to worry about because hardly anyone pays any attention or knows who they're actually buying these parts from they just grab one on eBay or Amazon.

I HATE to be one of the people that only buys brand name parts and pays more for them but if the cheap ones floating around all over the internet can't get their act together that's what I'll have to do just to lower my inconvenience level.


#65

S

stevieb50

TobyU said:
I'm seeing a lot of these problems recently.
I am certainly a fan of the cheaper priced stuff from the aftermarket manufacturers coming from eBay and Amazon even if they are lower quality because my main experience is that when you're replacing a 15 or 20 year old coil on a Kohler or Briggs etc even if you buy the brand name one today, it will not last the 15 or 20 years the original one did!
So for most things there's very little point in spending top dollar for a brand name one if a cheaper functioning one is available.

BUT THE PROBLEM I'm running into is they seem to be unable to actually duplicate the same parts recently!
Why is this now a problem because they've been doing fine for years?

I received four cables the other day all the same shipment.
Three of these were aftermarket and one was an MTD.
They all have the exact correct part numbers in the listings and we're assured to fit and replace the numbers I was replacing.
The ONLY one that fit was the MTD.
All three of the other ones were not correct.
I was able to use one as it was just 11 inches too long so it was aggravating but it got the job done.
The other two were too short so there was no way to make them work.

This coil situation - I was buying aftermarket Kohler coils five or six years ago if not a little longer and they were fitting perfectly.
I need to put a little bit more effort into making these things fit especially when we're talking about a zone control cable or a traction cable on a walk behind mower that all it really takes is a tape measure.

They don't have to be exactly perfect.
A millimeter here or there wouldn't matter in most cases and in many cases within a quarter inch would be just fine.
You can hold them up next to each other and eyeball it and mark it with your thumb and get it to work just fine.
Apparently they aren't even doing this!!

It's just another word of life's conspiracies.

They actually win either way.
Most of the time, on things like this even when they have return policy, the vast majority do not get sent back and only a few get credited for the full amount.
Often they will offer you a full refund but you have to ship it back to them which cost you more money to send and you're only getting part of your money back.
Because of this a lot just get laid to the side and never get returned.
So it doesn't matter in this case if it fits or not or if you're happy or not because they still got their money.
There is really no reputation etc to worry about because hardly anyone pays any attention or knows who they're actually buying these parts from they just grab one on eBay or Amazon.

I HATE to be one of the people that only buys brand name parts and pays more for them but if the cheap ones floating around all over the internet can't get their act together that's what I'll have to do just to lower my inconvenience level.
Click to expand...
I bought them at Amazon but sent them back and got a different brand same exact part number and everything and they came and ate the perfect fit now. Unfortunately it's still backfires


#66

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
I bought them at Amazon but sent them back and got a different brand same exact part number and everything and they came and ate the perfect fit now. Unfortunately it's still backfires
Click to expand...
Are perfect fit


#67

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
I bought them at Amazon but sent them back and got a different brand same exact part number and everything and they came and ate the perfect fit now. Unfortunately it's still backfires
Click to expand...
Sorry if you already mentioned this but did you pull the flywheel and check the flywheel key?


#68

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Sorry if you already mentioned this but did you pull the flywheel and check the flywheel key?
Click to expand...
Yes it was good


#69

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
Yes it was good
Click to expand...
I was afraid you were going to say that. Have you had this equipment since new? If so, can you give a little history on this engine? When did it last run right and has there been any work done between when it last ran right and when it started not running right? Do you know if the engine has ever been overheated?


#70

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
I was afraid you were going to say that. Have you had this equipment since new? If so, can you give a little history on this engine? When did it last run right and has there been any work done between when it last ran right and when it started not running right? Do you know if the engine has ever been overheated?
Click to expand...
I have no history on it just bought it.


#71

StarTech

StarTech

Just recently brought some heat shrink butt connector off Amazon. They were be for 22-16 gauge wires. Well they won't even hold 16 ga wires even after I modified my crimpers. A total waste of my time and money. Going back the HF ones that actually work as intended.


#72

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
I have no history on it just bought it.
Click to expand...
Was it running correctly when you bought it or did you buy it knowing it had issues? That will give a little history as to when the issues may have started.


#73

V

VegetiveSteam

Don't know where you want to go but I can tell you what I would do next for what it's worth. It seems like it could be a timing issue and since the flywheel key is good, valve timing or a bad SAM would be what I would check next. Since you probably don't have a SAM tester I'd start with the possibility of valve timing being off. This is why I asked if there were any signs of the engine ever being over heated. If you over heat a Command Twin, it can cause the gear on the crankshaft to expand and that can let the crankshaft turn inside that gear causing the valves to be out of time with the pistons. To check for signs of over heating I'd remove one or both of the rocker covers and look at the area of the head between the valve springs. If the engine has been run clean and cool any discoloration cause by oil should be fairly light brown to a golden color. If the engine has been over heated that area will probably be very dark brown and thicker than just a film. The rocker arms could also be dark in color. If you do decide to remove the rocker covers and find it very dark inside the next thing would be to check valve overlap to see if the valves are out of time. There is no other way to check valve timing on a Command Twin. If you get to that point and find you want to check valve overlap let me know and I can walk you through how to do that if you don't know.


#74

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Don't know where you want to go but I can tell you what I would do next for what it's worth. It seems like it could be a timing issue and since the flywheel key is good, valve timing or a bad SAM would be what I would check next. Since you probably don't have a SAM tester I'd start with the possibility of valve timing being off. This is why I asked if there were any signs of the engine ever being over heated. If you over heat a Command Twin, it can cause the gear on the crankshaft to expand and that can let the crankshaft turn inside that gear causing the valves to be out of time with the pistons. To check for signs of over heating I'd remove one or both of the rocker covers and look at the area of the head between the valve springs. If the engine has been run clean and cool any discoloration cause by oil should be fairly light brown to a golden color. If the engine has been over heated that area will probably be very dark brown and thicker than just a film. The rocker arms could also be dark in color. If you do decide to remove the rocker covers and find it very dark inside the next thing would be to check valve overlap to see if the valves are out of time. There is no other way to check valve timing on a Command Twin. If you get to that point and find you want to check valve overlap let me know and I can walk you through how to do that if you don't know.
Click to expand...
Ok I will take valve covers off and check that out


#75

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Don't know where you want to go but I can tell you what I would do next for what it's worth. It seems like it could be a timing issue and since the flywheel key is good, valve timing or a bad SAM would be what I would check next. Since you probably don't have a SAM tester I'd start with the possibility of valve timing being off. This is why I asked if there were any signs of the engine ever being over heated. If you over heat a Command Twin, it can cause the gear on the crankshaft to expand and that can let the crankshaft turn inside that gear causing the valves to be out of time with the pistons. To check for signs of over heating I'd remove one or both of the rocker covers and look at the area of the head between the valve springs. If the engine has been run clean and cool any discoloration cause by oil should be fairly light brown to a golden color. If the engine has been over heated that area will probably be very dark brown and thicker than just a film. The rocker arms could also be dark in color. If you do decide to remove the rocker covers and find it very dark inside the next thing would be to check valve overlap to see if the valves are out of time. There is no other way to check valve timing on a Command Twin. If you get to that point and find you want to check valve overlap let me know and I can walk you through how to do that if you don't know.
Click to expand...
What is SAM is that the ignition part that is impossible to find?


#76

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
What is SAM is that the ignition part that is impossible to find?
Click to expand...
Yes. That is the Spark Advance Module. One thing to check with the SAM. If you can loosen it enough, turn it over and inspect the epoxy potting material on the back for any signs of cracks. If that material cracks, it lets in moisture and that would likely cause it to no longer work properly.

There is a conversion kit that would eliminate the SAM. It comes with two new ignition modules and a new flywheel. The timing is different so the modules you just bought would become useless to you. The kit part number is 24 755 308-S. It has a suggested list price of 220.00. I know it doesn't look like it but it's actually a good deal. If you were to buy just the flywheel it has a list price of 272.00.

If it comes down to it you might be able to find a used or new old stock SAM. You would be looking for a part number 24 584 09-S or a 24 584 10-S. The two are the same electrically. The only difference is one had spade connectors where the other had bullet connectors.

If you have any good long established Kohler dealers near you they may have a SAM tester. It would be doubtful any Kohler dealer in business for less than 15 years would have one. Your best bet would be an "Expert Dealer". If you go to Kohler's website and search for dealers by zip code "Expert Dealers" are clearly defined.


#77

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Yes. That is the Spark Advance Module. One thing to check with the SAM. If you can loosen it enough, turn it over and inspect the epoxy potting material on the back for any signs of cracks. If that material cracks, it lets in moisture and that would likely cause it to no longer work properly.

There is a conversion kit that would eliminate the SAM. It comes with two new ignition modules and a new flywheel. The timing is different so the modules you just bought would become useless to you. The kit part number is 24 755 308-S. It has a suggested list price of 220.00. I know it doesn't look like it but it's actually a good deal. If you were to buy just the flywheel it has a list price of 272.00.

If it comes down to it you might be able to find a used or new old stock SAM. You would be looking for a part number 24 584 09-S or a 24 584 10-S. The two are the same electrically. The only difference is one had spade connectors where the other had bullet connectors.

If you have any good long established Kohler dealers near you they may have a SAM tester. It would be doubtful any Kohler dealer in business for less than 15 years would have one. Your best bet would be an "Expert Dealer". If you go to Kohler's website and search for dealers by zip code "Expert Dealers" are clearly defined.
Click to expand...
Ok 👌


#78

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Ok 👌
Click to expand...
Just found a Sam module on eBay for 55 bucks so I ordered it and we'll see what happens


#79

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Ok 👌
Click to expand...

VegetiveSteam said:
Yes. That is the Spark Advance Module. One thing to check with the SAM. If you can loosen it enough, turn it over and inspect the epoxy potting material on the back for any signs of cracks. If that material cracks, it lets in moisture and that would likely cause it to no longer work properly.

There is a conversion kit that would eliminate the SAM. It comes with two new ignition modules and a new flywheel. The timing is different so the modules you just bought would become useless to you. The kit part number is 24 755 308-S. It has a suggested list price of 220.00. I know it doesn't look like it but it's actually a good deal. If you were to buy just the flywheel it has a list price of 272.00.

If it comes down to it you might be able to find a used or new old stock SAM. You would be looking for a part number 24 584 09-S or a 24 584 10-S. The two are the same electrically. The only difference is one had spade connectors where the other had bullet connectors.

If you have any good long established Kohler dealers near you they may have a SAM tester. It would be doubtful any Kohler dealer in business for less than 15 years would have one. Your best bet would be an "Expert Dealer". If you go to Kohler's website and search for dealers by zip code "Expert Dealers" are clearly defined.
Click to expand...
IMG_20230910_110539427.jpg
Is this the SAM ?


#80

S

stevieb50

stevieb50 said:
Ok 👌
Click to expand...

stevieb50 said:
Ok 👌
Click to expand...

Attachments





#81

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
View attachment 66672
Is this the SAM ?
Click to expand...
No. That's the voltage regulator.

This is a SAM

1694359577059.jpeg

Attachments





#82

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
No. That's the voltage regulator.

This is a SAM

View attachment 66677and this would cause one cylinder to run hotter ?
Click to expand...


#83

V

VegetiveSteam

It shouldn't no.


#84

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
It shouldn't no.
Click to expand...
Well I'm not sure where to go now with the backfiring. Coils been replaced carb cleaned new spark plugs ran sea foam through system


#85

V

VegetiveSteam

stevieb50 said:
Well I'm not sure where to go now with the backfiring. Coils been replaced carb cleaned new spark plugs ran sea foam through system
Click to expand...
Look at post #10 of this discussion in the link below. Watch the video. It will show how to find valve overlap. If overlap occurs any place other than the piston being at top dead center at the end of the exhaust stroke your cam and crank are out of time with each other and that could cause backfiring. Just remember the four cycles or strokes. Intake, Compression, Power, Exhaust. What comes after exhaust? Intake. So with the piston at top dead center between the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke both valves should be open just a little bit. At top dead center on the compression stroke, both valves as you probably know should be closed

You can check it on either cylinder on your engine. You will need to take the spark plugs out and turn the engine over by hand in the normal direction of rotation which is clockwise looking from the flywheel side of the engine. Use something like a wood dowel to slide into the spark plug hole to feel where the piston is. Make sure the dowel is ong enough not to slide into the hole. You can use a screw driver if you're gentle and don't bang it around on the top of the piston. You're just trying to feel where the piston is.

www.lawnmowerforum.com

Kohler xt675-2047 NO MARK crankshaft

Hi everyone, I have a problem because when I was removing the oil pan, the camshaft in the Kohler xt675-2047 engine from the Viking lawn mower popped out. The worst thing about it all is that there is no mark on the gear that is mounted on the crankshaft (it is fixed in place, it is not...
www.lawnmowerforum.com www.lawnmowerforum.com


#86

S

stevieb50

VegetiveSteam said:
Look at post #10 of this discussion in the link below. Watch the video. It will show how to find valve overlap. If overlap occurs any place other than the piston being at top dead center at the end of the exhaust stroke your cam and crank are out of time with each other and that could cause backfiring. Just remember the four cycles or strokes. Intake, Compression, Power, Exhaust. What comes after exhaust? Intake. So with the piston at top dead center between the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke both valves should be open just a little bit. At top dead center on the compression stroke, both valves as you probably know should be closed

You can check it on either cylinder on your engine. You will need to take the spark plugs out and turn the engine over by hand in the normal direction of rotation which is clockwise looking from the flywheel side of the engine. Use something like a wood dowel to slide into the spark plug hole to feel where the piston is. Make sure the dowel is ong enough not to slide into the hole. You can use a screw driver if you're gentle and don't bang it around on the top of the piston. You're just trying to feel where the piston is.

www.lawnmowerforum.com

Kohler xt675-2047 NO MARK crankshaft

Hi everyone, I have a problem because when I was removing the oil pan, the camshaft in the Kohler xt675-2047 engine from the Viking lawn mower popped out. The worst thing about it all is that there is no mark on the gear that is mounted on the crankshaft (it is fixed in place, it is not...
www.lawnmowerforum.com www.lawnmowerforum.com
Click to expand...


#87

S

stevieb50

This is all I see in post 10. And would a compression check tell me anything and if so what should the compression be?

Attachments







#88

V

VegetiveSteam

Click on the link at the bottom of my last reply titled "Kohler XT675-2047" Once there, go to reply #10. Go to the link in that video. It describes how to find valve overlap.

A compression test likely won't tell you anything because if the crank has turned inside the crank gear it's usually not far enough to notice on a compression test. Compression on a good Command Twin is typically somewhere around 180 psi if tested correctly. We like to see a minimum of 150 psi.


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