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Hydrostatic transmission problem?

#1

R

Rosey

Scotts 1642 lawn tractor was running and cutting fine. With last use, started to squeal in forward gear. I could use it for a time at the slowest (really slow) speed then after three rows of mowing, the noise started again and the engine conked out. Cannot go up any incline without the mower screaming. I had the mower looked at by a professional who believes the problem is internal. He checked the belts and pulleys and other stuff. He has no knowledge of hydrostatic trannys. I started it and drove it to the shed SLOWLY but then had to push it up the ramp. The machine is old but looks great and was mowing great. Is it worth fixing? I bought it used 2 yrs ago at a good price. Has bagger and mulching capabilities. Thank you. Rosey.


#2

gotomow

gotomow

Is it worth fixing? Who knows. How much do you like it? Does it meet your needs? What did you pay for it? How much would a mower either new or used cost to replace this one cost? You have a Tuff Torq K51 transmission. Scout around for someone familiar with hydrostatic transmissions in your area and ask them what a ballpark repair bill would be to repair or replace and then YOU make the call.


#3

Richie F

Richie F

Could you give the numbers off the machine so the belt/pulley system could be looked at ?
Squeal to me first off is a belt.
Why to you think it's the hydrostatic trans that's making the noise ?
Does the unit look dry or is there an oil leak from it ?

Here's video to get some education on the unit.
It starts at 03:16


#4

Mower King

Mower King

Rosey said:
Scotts 1642 lawn tractor was running and cutting fine. With last use, started to squeal in forward gear. I could use it for a time at the slowest (really slow) speed then after three rows of mowing, the noise started again and the engine conked out. Cannot go up any incline without the mower screaming. I had the mower looked at by a professional who believes the problem is internal. He checked the belts and pulleys and other stuff. He has no knowledge of hydrostatic trannys. I started it and drove it to the shed SLOWLY but then had to push it up the ramp. The machine is old but looks great and was mowing great. Is it worth fixing? I bought it used 2 yrs ago at a good price. Has bagger and mulching capabilities. Thank you. Rosey.
Click to expand...
Only you know if it's worth fixing.....you are looking at it and have driven it, we have not. Some are worth fixing, while others are not cost effective to fix but, only you can make that decision!


#5

R

Rosey

Richie F said:
Could you give the numbers off the machine so the belt/pulley system could be looked at ?
Squeal to me first off is a belt.
Why to you think it's the hydrostatic trans that's making the noise ?
Does the unit look dry or is there an oil leak from it ?

Here's video to get some education on the unit.
It starts at 03:16
Click to expand...


#6

R

Rosey

Thank you Richie. Here are the numbers I can see:

Scott's Model 1642H

Product ID # GX1442S132505

On air cleaner serial number of engine maybe 3034702233

The tractor was gone over by a skilled mechanic. He did not see a belt problem or anything else that would keep the tractor from moving. . He said that the problem is "internal" and that he does not know anything about hydro transmissions. Said it needs a new "rear end." Is there a belt within the transmission that you are referring to that would not be visible without disassembly? I think the tranny may be under the battery which is under the seat. I can't see to provide a number for that.


#7

R

Rosey

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. There is no leak.


#8

R

Rosey

mower king said:
Only you know if it's worth fixing.....you are looking at it and have driven it, we have not. Some are worth fixing, while others are not cost effective to fix but, only you can make that decision!
Click to expand...


#9

R

Rosey

Yes, I like the machine. It fits me well for size and does a nice job. Just wish I knew what's involved with a repair, and at what cost since I can't do it myself. I only paid $270 for it!


#10

gotomow

gotomow

There is a deck belt and a belt that goes to the hydro tranny. If there is some issue with that belt it could affect the transmission performance


#11

R

Rosey

Is the tranny belt visible or internal ? If it's visible, it was checked along with the pulleys.


#12

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

If you have the hydro in the neutral position with the engine running and the clutch not depressed does it squeal? Does it make the noise when you engage the trans to move? Does it get louder when you try to go faster?


#13

R

Rosey

Hammermechanicman said:
If you have the hydro in the neutral position with the engine running and the clutch not depressed does it squeal? Does it make the noise when you engage the trans to move? Does it get louder when you try to go faster?
Click to expand...
Hammermechanicman said:
If you have the hydro in the neutral position with the engine running and the clutch not depressed does it squeal? Does it make the noise when you engage the trans to move? Does it get louder when you try to go faster?
Click to expand...
Rosey said:
No to squeal in neutral, engine running. I can engage trans but starts to make noise if I move more than turtle speed. And yes, it will get scary loud and conk out if I try to speed up or try to go up an incline. Now I can't recall if it's all the same sounding noise.
Click to expand...


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

It does sound like the trans is bad. The high pitched whining noise is the fluid bypassing the pistons in the pump at supersonic speed. The trans at a minimum needs the pump and motor assemblies replaced. Not a simple task.


#15

R

Rosey

Thank you Richie. Here are the numbers I can see:

Scott's Model 1642H

Product ID # GX1442S132505

On air cleaner serial number of engine maybe 3034702233

The tractor was gone over by a skilled mechanic. He did not see a belt problem or anything else that would keep the tractor from moving. . He said that the problem is "internal" and that he does not know anything about hydro transmissions. Said it needs a new "rear end." Is there a belt within the transmission that you are referring to that would not be visible without disassembly? I think the tranny may be under the battery which is under the seat. I can't see to provide a number for that.


#16

R

Rosey

Rosey said:
Thank you Richie. Here are the numbers I can see:

Scott's Model 1642H

Product ID # GX1442S132505

On air cleaner serial number of engine maybe 3034702233

The tractor was gone over by a skilled mechanic. He did not see a belt problem or anything else that would keep the tractor from moving. . He said that the problem is "internal" and that he does not know anything about hydro transmissions. Said it needs a new "rear end." Is there a belt within the transmission that you are referring to that would not be visible without disassembly? I think the tranny may be under the battery which is under the seat. I can't see to provide a number Report Edit
Click to expand...
Hammermechanicman said:
It does sound like the trans is bad. The high pitched whining noise is the fluid bypassing the pistons in the pump at supersonic speed. The trans at a minimum needs the pump and motor assemblies replaced. Not a simple task.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the assessment. Time to call it quits.


#17

B

bertsmobile1

If this was my mower then I would start with replacing the drive belt and all of the idler pulleys.
These are service replacement items so even if the transmission is bad and requires fixing you have not wasted your money .
As you can always put the old ones back am & keep the new ones for latter .
A squeal that gets wore when you go up hill sounds more like a belt than a box as was stated way back in the beginning.


#18

R

Rosey

Thanks for giving me hope. The initial diagnosis was that it is not a belt or idler pulley, however what you say makes sense. Do you think I should have a JD dealer pick it up and assess?


#19

B

bertsmobile1

Replacing the belts & pulleys will be cheaper than getting the JD tech to look at it.
Add to that a shop will wan to fix everything which will cost a fortune .
An independent repair only workshop would usually give you a more honest opinion because they are not trying to sell you a new mower.


#20

R

Rosey

bertsmobile1 said:
Replacing the belts & pulleys will be cheaper than getting the JD tech to look at it.
Add to that a shop will wan to fix everything which will cost a fortune .
An independent repair only workshop would usually give you a more honest opinion because they are not trying to sell you a new mower.
Click to expand...
Yes, I already had an independent mechanic who's full time job is care of all the equipment, servicing and repairs, for a huge cemetetery. He's the one who thought it was a gear or something in the tranny. He's very trustworthy but can't fix hydros. He did not think there was a problem with either belts or idler pulleys. You think they should be changed out anyway?


#21

R

Rosey

Rosey said:
Yes, I already had an independent mechanic who's full time job is care of all the equipment, servicing and repairs, for a huge cemetetery. He's the one who thought it was a gear or something in the tranny. He's very trustworthy but can't fix hydros. He did not think there was a problem with either belts or idler pulleys. You think they should be changed out anyway?
Click to expand...
The mechanic Art, also told me to hang on to the tractor in case he comes across another one with a blown motor that has a good rear end he could swap out for me.


#22

tom3

tom3

One thing I'd add, wild guess. Brake? This hydro has an external disc type brake and it's not closed or covered. Might check into that before doing anything radical. That transmission is an expensive proposition.


#23

B

bertsmobile1

The problem we have is we only have the words you posted to use to make a diagnosis .
One persons squeak is anothers grind is anothers squeal .
It is rare for a hydro to squeal unless there is no oil in it or the input bearing is shot.

So you got my best advice based on what was previously posted.
Now that there is more information about the person who diagnosed it I might review my original advise

However if you like the mower & want to keep it and the mower itself is in good working order I would still do belts & pulleys .


#24

B

bertsmobile1

Some audio would be a distinct advantage to diagnoosis


#25

Richie F

Richie F

My post #3 has a video of what's inside the rear.
Anybody that is mechanically inclined can take it apart and inspect/fix it.
The unit might be low on oil, that's why I asked if there was any leaks.
There should be a info tag on the rear.
Knowing that info you can find used rears on EBay.


#26

R

Rosey

Richie F said:
Could you give the numbers off the machine so the belt/pulley system could be looked at ?
Squeal to me first off is a belt.
Why to you think it's the hydrostatic trans that's making the noise ?
Does the unit look dry or is there an oil leak from it ?

Here's video to get some education on the unit.
It starts at 03:16
Click to expand...
I have access to a rebuilt K51A transmission from an individual for a Scott's 1642 for a couple hundred dollars. How can I tell if it is a functioning unit?


#27

R

Rosey

Hammermechanicman said:
It does sound like the trans is bad. The high pitched whining noise is the fluid bypassing the pistons in the pump at supersonic speed. The trans at a minimum needs the pump and motor assemblies replaced. Not a simple task.

Hi, I actually found a rebuilt Tuff Torq K51A rebuilt transmission available for a couple hundred dollars about 70 miles from me. Is there a way to test it before purchase?
Click to expand...


#28

Richie F

Richie F

Look at this.


#29

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The video shows trans operating with no load so very low pressure in the pump. This test won't show a bad trans with bad pump and motor.


#30

R

Rosey

Richie F said:
Look at this.
Click to expand...
Thanks Richie. I doubt the seller will have it hooked up to the wheels. Is that necessary to test it? Does the transmission include the transaxle?


#31

R

Rosey

Rosey said:
Thanks Richie. I doubt the seller will have it hooked up to the wheels. Is that necessary to test it? Does the transmission include the transaxle?
Click to expand...
Richie, I got this reply from the seller of the rebuilt tranny. Hi, thanks for your inquiry. The transmission was removed from a 2001 or 2002 Scotts 1642H tractor (bought from Home Depot by me) to replace the input shaft, bearings and oil seal and has been totally repaired and filled with new oil. To install the transmission you would need to jack up the rear of the tractor, removing the rear wheels, etc. JD does not make many of the parts it uses on its tractors and Tuff-Torq is the original supplier of the transmissions for not only the Scotts tractor range but many of the JD branded tractor too. So to answer your question - Yes it will fit.


#32

upupandaway

upupandaway

The trans squealing can be caused by low oil. With low oil maybe it is foaming(thus stop working) after using it for a few minutes...
Look around the transmission. Do you see alot of oily dirt sticking the trans? That could point to leaking fluid thus being low and could explain your problem.
Do you know\have or can pay someone who has a dremel tool\ sawzall to cut out the bottom left corner of the battery holder? Right under it is the trans breather where you can add fluid (10w30 motor oil for this one) and find out if this fixes your problem pretty quick.


#33

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The seller states that the trans has been totally repaired and filled with oil but also states the only parts replaced was a shaft bearing and seal. If the seller is confident in his work without installing the trans and testing it ask what warranty he will provide. Rebuild kit for a k51 is around $250-$300 so can probably assume totally repaired means bad input shaft bearing and those parts were replaced and filled with oil. If you can get the trans cheap probably worth a shot.


#34

Richie F

Richie F

Rosey said:
Does the transmission include the transaxle?
Click to expand...
The transmission is the transaxle
I also agree with Hammermechanic.


#35

M

mechanic mark

TractorData.com Scotts S1642 tractor transmission information

www.tractordata.com www.tractordata.com

TractorData.com Scotts S1642 tractor information

www.tractordata.com www.tractordata.com

Amazon.com: New Idler Pulley kit for Traction Drive Belt Compatible With SCOTTS S1642 S2046 Low S/N S2546 : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: New Idler Pulley kit for Traction Drive Belt Compatible With SCOTTS S1642 S2046 Low S/N S2546 : Patio, Lawn & Garden
www.amazon.com


#36

R

Rosey

Hammermechanicman said:
The seller states that the trans has been totally repaired and filled with oil but also states the only parts replaced was a shaft bearing and seal. If the seller is confident in his work without installing the trans and testing it ask what warranty he will provide. Rebuild kit for a k51 is around $250-$300 so can probably assume totally repaired means bad input shaft bearing and those parts were replaced and filled with oil. If you can get the trans cheap probably worth a shot.

Part seller response: It was working fine when I removed it. When I was replacing the drive belt I noticed that the pulley on the input shaft was worn and was wobbling slightly on the shaft on examination I found that the shaft showed signs of wear too hence the need to replace the shaft and pulley. My original thought was to repair it and re-install on my tractor but I just run out of time to start the cutting season so I bought another tractor. The only test that has been done is to ensure that the wheel shafts rotate, the input shaft rotates and it holds oil without leaking.. basically more than most people would do when selling used. Can I guarantee it..NO.. but I would rather junk it than pass something off that had issues. BTW I looked into trying to buy a refurbished transmission - John Deere does not service these units and they want over $700 for a replacement so its basically buy a new tractor.

He will not warranty the part.
Click to expand...


#37

R

Rosey

Richie F said:
The transmission is the transaxle
I also agree with Hammermechanic.
Click to expand...
Thanks Richie. Please see my latest thread to Hammermechanic.


#38

upupandaway

upupandaway

Hammermechanicman said:
The seller states that the trans has been totally repaired and filled with oil
Click to expand...

I know. I'm just skeptical that if the noise is a sharp loud squeal (which is common when this trans is low\out of fluid) I would suspect low on fluid. You don't don't get a sharp squeal noise from parts submerged in oil(very muffled if any).

My Deere has the exact same trans. I found out on mine, the plug on top where the gear and hydraulics sections connect, there is a filter(i think that is what it is supposed to be) oil would barely flow through this into the hydraulic side.

I drilled and tapped drain plugs on mine. When mine wouldn't go, upon draining it, not much came out the hydraulic side. I THOUGHT i poured in 20oz(or whatever it was supposed to be) but i learned i didn't when i drained it to open it again when mine barely moved.

If the person who serviced it just pulled the plug out and poured fluid in until it was "full" and called it a day, maybe this one was like mine(it is the same model as min but don't know if the filter did the same as mine)- no fluid went to the hydraulic side.
My guess..


#39

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

www.tufftorq.com

Tuff Torq Power Optimization - Tips to optimize your transmission

This article provides information to understand, diagnose, and optimize the power of your Tuff Torq hydrostatic transaxle.
www.tufftorq.com www.tufftorq.com

I have repaired or rebuilt a few hydo transaxles. If a bearing fails it usually puts grit into the fluid which ruins the pump and motor blocks. If a customer wants a hydo fixed it gets a full rebuild kit and the case throughly cleaned till spotless. Nowadays the cost to rebuild a hydro is not cost effective because most homeowner grade mowers are not worth the repair cost. Used hydos are a crap shoot. I would never pay much for one


#40

R

Rosey

Hammermechanicman said:
www.tufftorq.com

Tuff Torq Power Optimization - Tips to optimize your transmission

This article provides information to understand, diagnose, and optimize the power of your Tuff Torq hydrostatic transaxle.
www.tufftorq.com www.tufftorq.com

I have repaired or rebuilt a few hydo transaxles. If a bearing fails it usually puts grit into the fluid which ruins the pump and motor blocks. If a customer wants a hydo fixed it gets a full rebuild kit and the case throughly cleaned till spotless. Nowadays the cost to rebuild a hydro is not cost effective because most homeowner grade mowers are not worth the repair cost. Used hydos are a crap shoot. I would never pay much for on.
.
He wants $140 firm. I would have to travet to pick it up and then pay my mechanic to swap it out. It is a crapshoot.
Click to expand...


#41

R

Rosey

upupandaway said:
I know. I'm just skeptical that if the noise is a sharp loud squeal (which is common when this trans is low\out of fluid) I would suspect low on fluid. You don't don't get a sharp squeal noise from parts submerged in oil(very muffled if any).

My Deere has the exact same trans. I found out on mine, the plug on top where the gear and hydraulics sections connect, there is a filter(i think that is what it is supposed to be) oil would barely flow through this into the hydraulic side.

I drilled and tapped drain plugs on mine. When mine wouldn't go, upon draining it, not much came out the hydraulic side. I THOUGHT i poured in 20oz(or whatever it was supposed to be) but i learned i didn't when i drained it to open it again when mine barely moved.

If the person who serviced it just pulled the plug out and poured fluid in until it was "full" and called it a day, maybe this one was like mine(it is the same model as min but don't know if the filter did the same as mine)- no fluid went to the hydraulic side.
My guess..
Click to expand...
upupandaway said:
I know. I'm just skeptical that if the noise is a sharp loud squeal (which is common when this trans is low\out of fluid) I would suspect low on fluid. You don't don't get a sharp squeal noise from parts submerged in oil(very muffled if any).

My Deere has the exact same trans. I found out on mine, the plug on top where the gear and hydraulics sections connect, there is a filter(i think that is what it is supposed to be) oil would barely flow through this into the hydraulic side.

I drilled and tapped drain plugs on mine. When mine wouldn't go, upon draining it, not much came out the hydraulic side. I THOUGHT i poured in 20oz(or whatever it was supposed to be) but i learned i didn't when i drained it to open it again when mine barely moved.

If the person who serviced it just pulled the plug out and poured fluid in until it was "full" and called it a day, maybe this one was like mine(it is the same model as min but don't know if the filter did the same as mine)- no fluid went to the hydraulic side.
My guess..
Click to expand...
This is the sellers response to the fluid topic. "I see you have done your homework! I like that you took the time to find out before you plunged..not that I am trying to turn you off repairing yours (after all I have a transmission for sale). You are right about filling with oil and most people forget to remove the filter before they fill and this will cause only one side of the transmission to fill and when its put into the tractor the oil distribute to the unfilled portion and low oil gives no drive. "


#42

Richie F

Richie F

There are many youtube videos on how to put oil in the axel.
A lot say pull the unit out to do it, but with some brain power putting oil in it in the machine can be done.
Yes, cutting up the top by the battery is how to do it.
Member upupandaway gave a suggestion on Pg. 4 post #32.
Me myself and I, would try to get to the other plug because the one he is talking about it the breather and can be damaged if removed and then a new one has to be bought.
Any which way you are going to have someone do the repair.
Stop the confusion and decide what you want to do.


#43

R

Rosey

Thanks everybody!


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