Export thread

John Deere Sabre with Kholer 17.5 hp engine.

This mower must be at least 30 years old. Owner says he purchased it, about 30 years ago, second hand, from a mower repair shop and that they put a brand new engine in it at that time.

The mower initially starts runs well and appears to be fully functional BUT as the work time passes, the mower gets slower & slower - reverse will hardy work at all.

I have told the owner that it is likly to be uneconomical to repair, however he wants me to have ago.

I could not find a model/serial number.

At this stage I am planning to remove the transaxle, drain the oil and replace it with new. Please advise grade of oil (I am in Australia so brands unlikly to help much).

FYI: I have 4 litres of a 25W70 mineral oil, on the shelf

Skippydiesel said:

John Deere Sabre with Kholer 17.5 hp engine.

This mower must be at least 30 years old. Owner says he purchased it, about 30 years ago, second hand, from a mower repair shop and that they put a brand new engine in it at that time.

The mower initially starts runs well and appears to be fully functional BUT as the work time passes, the mower gets slower & slower - reverse will hardy work at all.

I have told the owner that it is likly to be uneconomical to repair, however he wants me to have ago.

I could not find a model/serial number.

At this stage I am planning to remove the transaxle, drain the oil and replace it with new. Please advise grade of oil (I am in Australia so brands unlikly to help much).

FYI: I have 4 litres of a 25W70 mineral oil, on the shelf

Click to expand...

The labor will be as much as the mower is worth to remove transaxle, drain, replace oil, and replace transaxle. Consider using an extractor to get most of the oil out versus removing. Common oil to use is 20W-50 synthetic, however, you need to find out for your specific application.

Skippydiesel said:

John Deere Sabre with Kholer 17.5 hp engine.

This mower must be at least 30 years old. Owner says he purchased it, about 30 years ago, second hand, from a mower repair shop and that they put a brand new engine in it at that time.

The mower initially starts runs well and appears to be fully functional BUT as the work time passes, the mower gets slower & slower - reverse will hardy work at all.

I have told the owner that it is likly to be uneconomical to repair, however he wants me to have ago.

I could not find a model/serial number.

At this stage I am planning to remove the transaxle, drain the oil and replace it with new. Please advise grade of oil (I am in Australia so brands unlikly to help much).

FYI: I have 4 litres of a 25W70 mineral oil, on the shelf

Click to expand...

Hydros are the only place that I use full synthetic
The trans is good for about 1000 hours , a bit more if the owner was careful, never ran at 1/2 engine speed and did not tow.
There is a tech who advertises on ebay , I have used him several times
HE machines the kidney plate and the cylinder blocks back to flat again and at the correct surface roughness then shims them to the right clearances .
Fills it with oil & send it back purged & ready to instal for $ 400 AUS .
Now if he has to add parts the price will go up but the drop in pump/motor units are $ 600 to $ 1000 wholesale ( if you can get one )
I have used him a couple of times and now will not open a box for love nor money.
Tell him you are a tech and ask politely for a 12 month warranty ( normal is 3 ) .
I usually get new seals put in at the same time ( all 3 of them ) .
I charge the customer 2 hours labour + 2 x freight and it still works out cheaper than just buying the parts .

Cheap & nasty test for hydros
I use a tilt trailer and a good hydro will pull in gear engine off with strong resistance & stop when I stop pulling
A shot hydro will take off like Mulga Bill's bicycle the second the brake is released
Test is done with engine off .
The tranny man uses a mower shop in Eagle Vale ( Sydney ) for drop off & pick ups
Depending upon how bad the wear is heavier oil can add another single season to 5 years .

That Sabre/Scotts mower will have a Tuff Torq K46V (or K40 depending if it had been replaced). They are not that hard to remove for draining the oil. Now if the oil comes milky then the seals need to looked at and internal filter change needed as water is present.

As for cost of the tech time it is the customer option if he wants for the tech to do an oil change. Some old mower have been very well taken care of is worth the time spent on them, others that are abused are not. I just got through last month repairing a Scotts S17.5 last month that look like a nearly new mower.

And Bert some the Tuff Torq K46 transaxles will present good resistance pushed backwards but no where the same when pushed forward yet nothing is wrong with them.

Thanks you for your informative replies -

This mower has not been well maintained.
The owner wants a quick/cheap fix.

I have suggested replacing the oil - he has agreed.

Will any 20-W 50 full synthetic engine oil do the job or should I be looking at something more specific?

Have removed transaxle (Tuff Torq K46 V) from mower & drained some really black horrible oil from it.

Cooling fan down to 2 blades - won't be doing much to keep the system cool.

The whole thing covered in compacted chaff/mud mixture - more heat retention.

Surprisingly, the magnet had only a little "fuzz" on it.

Refilled with 2 Litres, full synthetic, Penrite HPR 10 10W-50 motor oil. This is about the cheapest job I can do for the owner, any more and the cost (already more than the mower is worth) will become downright embarrassing.

In its day the JD Sabre must have been a quality ride-on - that its lasted this long, with so little care, speaks volumes.

I am getting ready to dig into my old TT K46 from 2004. Funny enough, It is the exact same symptoms: drives good until warm and sluggish up little hills. Replaced fluid and Didn't do crap. On YouTube, Taryl fixes all has a video about fixing a tranny with similar issues. I am going to replace the filter and resurface the pump as he says. His fix worked great on the John Deere he fixed with the K46, so I will be trying that and you probably should too.

Thanks Craftsman but no.

The list of defects on this ride-on would cost the owner thousands, for me to repair.

Different story If I owned/was given the old girl, then my labour is not factored in.

Got her going this afternoon - seemed to move forward/back okay - don't know what the story will be, when she's been in work for 30 minutes ++ - I am sure the owner will let me know.

It should do better since the oil was burnt. But you at least replace that bad fan and clean the exterior of the unit. They are around $10.

Skippydiesel said:

Have removed transaxle (Tuff Torq K46 V) from mower & drained some really black horrible oil from it.

Cooling fan down to 2 blades - won't be doing much to keep the system cool.

The whole thing covered in compacted chaff/mud mixture - more heat retention.

Surprisingly, the magnet had only a little "fuzz" on it.

Refilled with 2 Litres, full synthetic, Penrite HPR 10 10W-50 motor oil. This is about the cheapest job I can do for the owner, any more and the cost (already more than the mower is worth) will become downright embarrassing.

In its day the JD Sabre must have been a quality ride-on - that its lasted this long, with so little care, speaks volumes.

Click to expand...

The fans are not expensive just check that you order the right one as they come in push or pull blade angles
Without the fan the oil will overheat get too thin and loose traction.
An essential job with every service is to thoroughly clean the transmission
I use a very long air duster bought from Cheap & nasty car parts almost a decade ago
Do not use water as it just sets the dust into concrete .

StarTech said:

It should do better since the oil was burnt. But you at least replace that bad fan and clean the exterior of the unit. They are around $10.

Click to expand...

I would if it was my mower BUT here is a short list of what needs doing ;

• Extensive corrosion and paint loss
• Transaxle cooling fan broken
• Drive belt needs replacing
• Left cutter deck spindle bearings worn out
• Left front wheel bearings worn out
• Tyres don’t hold pressure
• Engine in need of a major service
• Cutter deck – heavy corrosion/badly dented and even “ripped” in places

AND the owner seems unwilling to fork out any more than $250 Au.
The above list will go to the owner, as a condition report, with the advice to act on it.

FYI - recently purchased a similar fan for a Ferris from memory, not much change out of $70 AU (had to come from the States)

bertsmobile1 said:

The fans are not expensive just check that you order the right one as they come in push or pull blade angles
Without the fan the oil will overheat get too thin and loose traction.
An essential job with every service is to thoroughly clean the transmission
I use a very long air duster bought from Cheap & nasty car parts almost a decade ago
Do not use water as it just sets the dust into concrete .

Click to expand...

Took me well over an hour, with compressed air wand, to clean the crud from this mower. Even then there was more cleaning, after I got the transaxle out.

My own equipment (I have 5 ride-ons, two push mowers, several chainsaws & brushcutters and fire pumps) are thouroughly cleaned with compressed air ONLY after every use. I advise all my customers to do likewise and NOT use water, don't cut wet grass, etc - falls on deaf ears.

"Terryl fixes all" has a video on these Tuff Torque drives.

One thing that needs attention is the wear plate. They need to be resurfaced flat using flat tempered glass Or, similar true flat surface) and 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper. Along with that use thin .020-inch shims under the pressure springs inside the plungers.

Use the recommended John Deere Torq Guard fluid. Substitutes often cause problems. Sorry, "synthetic" is an advertising gimmick to charge a higher price. All oils are a majority of base oil products with additives.

Option 2 is to find a suitable replacement. These differentials were not exclusive to John Deere riders. ATP/AYP and Toro builds many of the riders and push even to this day. Tuff Torque (TM) units were installed in most riders with hydrostatic transmissions.

Zero turn mowers mostly use Parker brand hydrostatic motors

"Sorry, "synthetic" is an advertising gimmick to charge a higher price. All oils are a majority of base oil products with additives."

You are only partly correct. Try reading this article -

@Auto Doc's That's what I said

Skippydiesel said:

Have removed transaxle (Tuff Torq K46 V) from mower & drained some really black horrible oil from it.

Cooling fan down to 2 blades - won't be doing much to keep the system cool.

The whole thing covered in compacted chaff/mud mixture - more heat retention.

Surprisingly, the magnet had only a little "fuzz" on it.

Refilled with 2 Litres, full synthetic, Penrite HPR 10 10W-50 motor oil. This is about the cheapest job I can do for the owner, any more and the cost (already more than the mower is worth) will become downright embarrassing.

In its day the JD Sabre must have been a quality ride-on - that its lasted this long, with so little care, speaks volumes.

Click to expand...

Doing what you did could not have been inexpensive, unless you really discounted your labor rate. Hope it works out and sounds like the mower needs a lot more help. It would be throwing good money after bad though.

Felt sorry for him - discounted by 50% (won't get rich any time soon)

Skippydiesel said:

Felt sorry for him - discounted by 50% (won't get rich any time soon)

Click to expand...

Hi Skippydiesel,

No one will ever get rich working on small engine equipment. It's decent for a young person trying to learn more about general mechanics or a decent hobby for older retiring folks.

It is not a top paying career by any stretch of the imagination. New riders cost as much as a used car, parts are often discontinued within a couple of years and labor costs of most shops will quickly outpace the cost of just buying a new machine.

Used equipment is not a bargain anymore and people are just not buying them. Four out of six mowers I get in are beyond economic repair, so people just abandon them. I am running more of a salvage than a repair shop these days.

Up until CV 19, I was doing a good trade in reconditioned ride on mowers, pumps, brush cutters, generators and compressors (most given to me as non goers). All of a sudden couldn't sell one, even at a price that just covered parts.

Skippydiesel said:

Up until CV 19, I was doing a good trade in reconditioned ride on mowers, pumps, brush cutters, generators and compressors (most given to me as non goers). All of a sudden couldn't sell one, even at a price that just covered parts.

Click to expand...

It is true that as a one person small engine repair shop, you can make a living and that is it. The money is only one aspect of why I have a small engine repair shop. The challenge, helping people, learning, not working for someone are also important.