Great ethanol warning

[RevB]

I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.

I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.

I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.

Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?

View attachment 63250

Here's your bullshit dispeller if the day...based on the actual, scientific principles of ethanol, not some made up crap.

Yes, ethanol is hygroscopic. Water vapor will come out of the air and attach to the ethanol molecule. If you have a closed system with (say) 100 gallons of (say) pure ethanol and 100 gallons of moist air. There is not enough water in the air to go into the ethanol and reach the azeotropic ratio -- not by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. If you know the relative humidity of the air at the time the tote was opened (and the temperature), you can find the absolute humidity (the mass % of water vapor in the air) and so estimate the maximum amount of water that went into the container. Since 100 gallons is about 20 times the volume of a mole of gas, assuming an absolute humidity of 10% (it's very likely way less) the answer is about 2 moles, or about 40 grams. In equilibrium (in the closed system) almost all of the water vapor will very soon go into the ethanol, so you have 100 gallons of ethanol (with a bit of toluene), plus 40 g of water. That's 0.01%. Obviously we're not working with pure ethanol but at a 5 to 15% by volume in gasoline. Very little water will accumulate in a closed system. But ours is open via a vent hole and continuously exposed. At some point the water will drop out of suspension and accumulate but the amount depends on a continuous exposure to water vapor, humidity, and temperature. Cold slows the absorption. What will hurt you is a tank that is less than full condenses the vapor on it's interior surface and that greatly hastens accumulation by those same orders of magnitude. So...a closed system is what you want. A simple piece of Saran wrap over the filler with a screwed on cap will limit the vapor to just what is in the tank in storage. Water issue solved.

Ethanol, pure or otherwise, is a great fuel. Burns cleanly, leaves little residue. It also has a much lower latent heat of evaporation than gasoline which means it cools the intake charge much more effectively and thereby allows the engine to run cooler by removing the heat of combustion by also burning at a lower temperature, a good thing for air cooled engines but does little for water cooled. The primary negative is that it's much better at washing the oil film off cylinder walls at higher concentrations but you'd have to be north of 50% to see that. Autoignition temp of gasoline is 580f, give or take a bit, ethanol is 685f or so. But the BTU content of ethanol is 76,000 BTU/gal as opposed to gasoline's 125,000 BTU/gal the energy input per unit time in the ignition cycle is far less than gasoline thus the heat available for input into the engine is far less...40% less. If you really want to see a cool engine modify it for methanol (nasty stuff, don't recommend it).

Getting your facts from the "home handyman" is at best, suspect.

 

[hollydolly]

Since the day ethanol came out, I have never used it, never will. 100% gas, Nuff said.

 

[troverman]

Since the day ethanol came out, I have never used it, never will. 100% gas, Nuff said.

Really, what do you pump into your car?

 

[RevB]

Ethanol has less energy than petrol so if you are running it in an engine that is jetted to lean burn strait fuel then it will be running very lean ( hole in piston type lean ) however that is not a problem for engines designed to burn it
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .

And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .

With the exception of your comment about lean burn and holes in pistons....I fly a Continental IO520 in a Bellanca Viking. In an air cooled engine you can either use fuel to cool it (run rich) or air to cool it (run lean). Air is free, fuel is not. Running at an exhaust gas peak temperature is the worst possible regime for any engine and running slightly rich of peak is way worse as the unburned fuel ends up coking and will make it's way into the oil past the rings. Lean of peak operation is cooler. But all of this assumes constant speed and fuel injection plus mixture control, something most small engines don't have. The holes in carbureted engines pistons come primarily from two strokes whose heat input per unit time is double that of a four stroke. Holes in four strokes come from high CR engines and detonation or pre-ignition.

 

[Hammermechanicman]

Woo Hoo! Another ethanol gas thread.
Where's Scrub?






My gas is better than your gas.

 

[TobyU]

I'm not even going to bother to read through all of these comments, opinions, conjecture etc on ethanol because it's really a moot point at this time in history.
Making it your mission or goal to only buy pure fuel now is awfully late in the game. It makes me wonder where a person lives or what rock they've been under for 25 years because this was an issue back then and maybe worth making it a hill to have battle on but for most of the country gas containing up to 10% ethanol which basically means everything has a good strong 10% of ethanol in it took over by about 1995.
If you're just now having problems, again my question is where have you been??
I run a shop and do this professionally and have seen thousands of small engines and no firsthand what happens in them and I can guarantee you that ethanol isn't the best thing but it's also not the only problem.
This is why many people are having problems more recently when they weren't 20 plus years ago even though the gas still had 10% ethanol in it back then.
It's just not the fact that there's ethanol in the fuel now. The gas is junk overall!
It doesn't really matter what brand you buy or whether you buy premium or 87 octane versus the highest one you can get.
Wow some fuels are better than others and some fuels are good at certain things, they are not refining fuel to sit exposed to the air to not congeal and mess up nor are they refining it to evaporate cleanly when it does. A lot of these advertisements you hear about being cleaner and removing valve deposits and stuff is true but that's only when they're running in frequent use. None of that matters for the short amount of hours Small engines get.
So instead of going Head over heels trying to and only buying ethanol free fuel which I have seen cost a dollar more per gallon.. it's far simpler do not obsess on staying away from ethanol but focus on fixing the problem and the most convenient, most efficient and cheapest way.
That way is to use fuel stabilizer and not to keep old stale gas around simply due to oversight, laziness or complacency.
Also, don't fall for this one out streets up to two and a half gallon stuff because that's what it says now. It used to say for long-term storage up to 2 years using a ratio of 1 oz for every gallon of fuel but they simply don't do that because they know there's no real guarantee and they don't want the complaints and they don't want to look bad.
But simply adding one good Strong full ounce of stabilizer, I still use Sta-Bil because in the quart bottles is still a good deal despite it having gone up some and if you watch where you purchase it you can get an even better deal.
You put a good strong ounce of this into your empty gas can before you get your fuel and keep your equipment topped off with full wet tanks and I've had many items sit for over 3 years and start right up in just a few pulls and run just fine.
The old school method of running them dry is also outdated and not the best currently as storing everything with a fresh wet tank of stabilized fuel is the best.
A lot of people mistakenly tout running them dry as being the best because they've done it and it's worked well for them but that doesn't mean it's the best.
It is better than doing nothing and by doing nothing I mean having non-stabilized fuel in there to begin with of whatever age just happened to be and your gas can when you put it in there leaving the tank at whatever level it happens to be in which is typically half full or less and then walking away for five or six months. Sure, running it drives better than doing that but it's not as good as storing with a fresh wet tank of stabilized fuel because if you drain your tank and run it to what people call dry it's still only about half to three quarter drive because the bottom of the carb in the float bowl still has some fuel in there which will quickly evaporate and leave some residue and even if you're lucky enough for the fresh gas you pour in next time you use it to dissolve that enough for everything to run properly the problem is the top part of the carburetor which is the needle and seat and the fuel line is dry!
Gas is very caustic and rougher on plastic and rubber Parts than it used to be and it's not just because the ethanol but the fact remains it's rougher than it used to be.
If you stick these rubber Parts in the nasty fuel and then let them air dry repeatedly like people will do from running them dry you will end up with needles and seats that don't seal off and leaky carburetors and leaky cracked fuel lines faster than if you would have stored the machine with fresh wet stabilized fuel.
All opinions and hatred of ethanol aside these are simply the facts.
Now we must also note that different parts of the country are going to have different results from doing the same thing.
There are people in states that cut all your lawn I don't see any problem with fuels etc because their stuff doesn't sit so it doesn't come up. I'm sure there are other variables too due to climate but for a large part of the country what I have stated is how everything pans out and the quickest easiest way to solve it is 1 oz of stabilizer into an empty gas can for every gallon of fuel you're going to add to the gas can.
NEVER cheat and try to pour a half ounce or ounce or whatever into your equipment's gas tank. That's not where it goes. Also, never take your 5 gallon gas can of gas you bought yesterday, last week, or at the beginning of the season and use that to fill up a smaller can after you've added the one ounce of stabilizer to that can because you now are not starting to clock from the day you start because you do not have fresh fuel.
So the one little simple additional item of 1 oz of stabilizer per gallon of fuel and the act of using it using it properly and not leaving gas to get old will solve all of these problems and put you back to a higher success rate than you had back before gas had ethanol in it.

It's also worth noting along with doing things properly or the best way that you can't just take gas that you just purchased and stabilize properly and use it that day and then let it sit for 6 months or whatever and think it's going to last forever.
Here's the two things that happen. One people will mix up fresh fuel at the end of the season or the last mow which is a great idea and fill up their machine and use it and then top it off with a full tank to store it for the off season. All good so far.
But instead of getting rid of that fuel in their car they may let it sit all off season you know what's left in the gas can which is probably a lot which is fine as long as the next season they use all that fuel. If you have a ride or this isn't a problem. But IF someone uses a two and a half or 5 gallon container and they don't go through much fuel in a season and at the end of the following cutting season they're still using that fuel and they haven't bought fresh again then after that next layup for the next cutting season they could be in trouble.
The second big problem is when someone has a piece of equipment that's working properly or has just had it fixed or they buy a new piece of equipment.
If you buy a new snowblower in December and you take it home and pour gas in it and start it and it runs perfectly and then a week later you use it and it works perfectly you think things are fine but you come back next December and it does not start. Why??
Well, for most people when they grab that 5 gallon container that had about a gallon and a half of fuel in it and poured their gas tank full of fuel in that new snowblower or whatever equipment it was, the question is when do they buy that fuel?
They could have bought that gas in May and just now be down to the last 3/4 of a gallon. They're taking old gas and pouring it into a brand new machine and while it works fine that day, it won't be fine after 6 months or a year of storage.
Stabilizer and storage habits.... That's all we have to do properly and all of these problems go away without the need to worry about ethanol.
It's a shame we have to worry about it but it's far simpler than trying to avoid ethanol at all costs. It's also typically much cheaper for your total cost of any stabilizer you use versus what you will pay extra per gallon to buy ethanol-free fuel.
So in my theory it's easier not to go all out on demonizing and eliminating the bad ethanol, but far easier just to do the simplest solution to the problem.

 

[grassmann]

where to buy 100% gas in your area.

Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada

Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.

www.pure-gas.org

 

[ChiefH]

Point 1 is true because they are designed to operate on straight gas

Point 2 is true just because it is the same as water in your gas, and water doesn't burn, but ethanol contained a small percent of water as part of production and can be stable at 70 degrees but can phase separate at 0 degrees even in an air tight container.

Point 3 is false by omission. Ethanol is not corrosive by itself. The water and other contaminates combine to form a mild acid which is corrosive. Ethanol has a lower combustion temp than straight gas so actually burns cooler. The issue with ethanol causing overheating and engine damage is caused by the extra oxygen contained in the ethanol combined with having an uncontained burn as compared to gas which causes 2 strokes to run leaner which causes more heat, but the other side of the coin is ethanol doesn't mix well with 2 stroke oil so can potentially cause a straight gas effect. 2 strokes can be designed to operate on E85 or even E100 without ill effects if they are tuned for it. A few years back Makita was testing a system that changed the carb setting and timing to allow their 2 stroke products to operate on E85.

Little over simplified explanation

I have heard all of what you said above, and I believe it is all true. Especially from a chemical point of view. Since Ethanol is hydrophilic it will combine with the di-hydrogen oxide (water) and that forms an acid that does cause corrosion in the engine. That being said I have been using ethanol-free gasoline in my small engines for 10-13 years now. I put Stabil in my straight gas and it will keep from season to season and I have no starting problems. My mix oil I use the silver Sthil 2-cycle oil 50:1. Sthil concurs with your statement to use 100% gas (NO ethanol)

 

[perzaklie]

Carb removed from a 5hp Briggs on a generator on a camper trailer. Generator was rarely used. This is what ethanol will do.

 

[Gord Baker]

I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.

I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.

I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.

Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?

View attachment 63250

Be very careful using Methanol in modern engines. It attacks certain types of Plastics and seized a fuel shut off valve on my Yamaha 80. Fortunately I can buy Ethanol free Premium Shell locally for my XLR. I simply drain and run dry seasonal equipment. Done.