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I bought a Raptor 42" last year with a military discount making it a pretty good bargain. It has been a great mower and a joy to use. One thing I have always been comfy with is the Kawasaki engine as it runs & sounds great. Just noticed that the 42" & 52" Raptors now come with Kohler 7000 engines. While they may be good engines, I wonder if they are as good as the Kawasaki engines? Looking at the prices of the motors separately, it is huge.
I did have a Kohler in my Cub Cadet and after 10 years never spent a dime on it so no hate there. Loud-arse motor though.

Is this likely just a cost cutting change?

interesting. hopfefully hustler doesnt use the kohler in the higher lines.

turboawd said:

interesting. hopfefully hustler doesnt use the kohler in the higher lines.

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Only see it listed for the 2 models.

I sure wouldn't want a kohler w/auto choke. Seems like they're a pain so far. I'm not sure if Kawasaki can't keep up or kohler is that much cheaper. I wonder where ea is made....USA, Mexico, Asia?
I do know my hustler dealer is scared the kohlers will start showing up in the raptor SD line up next year.
He says customers want the Kawasaki big time over the kohler and feels its THE biggest thing that separates hustler from the others.

There are some die-hard Kohler fans for sure and the whole USA thing. I have 3 Japanese engines in 3 tools, mower, pressure washer and weed wacker. The pressure washer has a Suburu Robin and it purrs like a kitten with an idle down feature that works great. The Tanaka weed wacker engine is phenomenal year after year with zero maintenance. Can't say much bad about Japanese engines.

I will take a kohler over a Kawasaki every time. You.
Kawasaki is over priced and does not last half the hours as a kohler.

People like the high torque rating on the Kawasaki. What they do not know is the torque to hp curve is to big.
At 3800 RPMS where you get max hp you only get half the torque.

Carscw said:

I will take a kohler over a Kawasaki every time. You.
Kawasaki is over priced and does not last half the hours as a kohler.

People like the high torque rating on the Kawasaki. What they do not know is the torque to hp curve is to big.
At 3800 RPMS where you get max hp you only get half the torque.

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I've read about the torque/HP curve on forums. I don't know enough about these engines to argue any point. Be nice to try the Kohler for a season to see if I notice a difference on a light, 42" mower. I do know my Kohler on the Cub was much louder. Kind of miss scaring the heck out of the dogs when I shut her down wrong!

After 2 Kawasaki's both burning oil bad. Less then 400 hours.
I dropped down in hp from the 22hp Kawasaki to a 20hp kohler pro. Much more useable power.
And just as quiet.

In this particular case, would you think the rather new Kohler 7000 is a better engine than the Kawasaki FR651V? Granted I have under 100hrs, but she burns no oil and runs like a top. Being a homeowner and putting on less than 50hrs a year, I'm not so worried.

RetiredGuns said:

In this particular case, would you think the rather new Kohler 7000 is a better engine than the Kawasaki FR651V? Granted I have under 100hrs, but she burns no oil and runs like a top. Being a homeowner and putting on less than 50hrs a year, I'm not so worried.

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I have not used the kohler 7000 so I don't know how it preforms.
The fr651v is the engine I have had trouble with.
It just could not handle the 30 hours a week.
For someone like you that only cuts your yard. And is easy on the mower I think it will last years.
I will say that it is a very smooth running engine.

So..I'm curious about the torque curve comment above and found a chart for the kaw 691v engine. It has 40# at 2000 rpm, 38# at 3000, and 34# at 3600.
Must be why I have no problem kicking my 54 SD deck into gear at 1/3 throttle....even w/heavy gator blades on it. it must also be why the engine "plays" with my sd54 raptor at 3/4 throttle. So if there's something wrong w/that I'll be darned if i know what it is.
I do see complaints that the kaw needs good air cleaner maintenance....no problem for me but could be in the wrong hands.
Before I bought the raptor I checked a new ahriens w/7000 auto choke. When the dealer fired it up it stuttered and stammered for 15 seconds and blew white smoke all over the place. It was louder sounding than my kaw to. I don't know how the reg choke 7000 starts but my kaw needs only a whisper of choke and fires up and runs very smooth right away.
I don't know how good the 7000 kohler will be. I know he courage line was a terrible model. I know both kaw and kohler have had good reputations in the past but that's no guarantee about the future.
For me I'm liking my kaw very much.

I have a customer with a CC with the kohler 7000 series on it purchased back in april or may. He brought it in last week for blade sharpening and as of last week had 180 hours on it. No problems so far.

kraky said:

So..I'm curious about the torque curve comment above and found a chart for the kaw 691v engine. It has 40# at 2000 rpm, 38# at 3000, and 34# at 3600. Must be why I have no problem kicking my 54 SD deck into gear at 1/3 throttle....even w/heavy gator blades on it. it must also be why the engine "plays" with my sd54 raptor at 3/4 throttle. So if there's something wrong w/that I'll be darned if i know what it is. I do see complaints that the kaw needs good air cleaner maintenance....no problem for me but could be in the wrong hands. Before I bought the raptor I checked a new ahriens w/7000 auto choke. When the dealer fired it up it stuttered and stammered for 15 seconds and blew white smoke all over the place. It was louder sounding than my kaw to. I don't know how the reg choke 7000 starts but my kaw needs only a whisper of choke and fires up and runs very smooth right away. I don't know how good the 7000 kohler will be. I know he courage line was a terrible model. I know both kaw and kohler have had good reputations in the past but that's no guarantee about the future. For me I'm liking my kaw very much.

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Please tell us you do not cut your grass at 3/4 throttle.

See how much the torque drops?

Yup....am I gonna be arrested by the lawn police....lol.
I cut for looks....and mental therapy...lol.
My whopping 3/4 acre is finely manicured every 2-3 days and looks beautiful even at 3/4 throttle w/razor sharp gator blades. So....you're gonna say I need full power and have to spray those 1 to 1.5" clippings 10-12 ft instead of 8? The neighbors think I'm crazy enough being out there w/a 54" cut and zero turn....now I have to rev it to full throttle to boot?

kraky said:

Yup....am I gonna be arrested by the lawn police....lol. I cut for looks....and mental therapy...lol. My whopping 3/4 acre is finely manicured every 2-3 days and looks beautiful even at 3/4 throttle w/razor sharp gator blades. So....you're gonna say I need full power and have to spray those 1 to 1.5" clippings 10-12 ft instead of 8? The neighbors think I'm crazy enough being out there w/a 54" cut and zero turn....now I have to rev it to full throttle to boot?

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The whole mower ( every part on it ) is made to operate best at full throttle.
The engine is designed to run its best and to cool it's best at full throttle.
You are actually hurting the engine and the hydros by not running full throttle.

I am sure some place in the owners manual. It will say to never operate the blades at less then full throttle. I know all mine do.

Well....I guess I'll have to break out my infrared thermometer and run a test. If the temps are consistant I ain't gonna worry. Now...how to run a test on my whopping 3/4 acre lawn.....

kraky said:

Well....I guess I'll have to break out my infrared thermometer and run a test. If the temps are consistant I ain't gonna worry. Now...how to run a test on my whopping 3/4 acre lawn.....

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Let me know what you come up with.

I'm an old fart...58 yrs old. I've flown airplanes, driven semis, raced snowmobiiles, and been around engines in general all my life. After all this time I have a pretty good feel for odd sounds, lugging, overheating etc. I got my thermometer this spring to see if i was overheating the hydro on my little jd lt180
Lawn tractor pulling a 250# roller. I usually run that 17 HP kaw at about 80% when mowing with that.
I found my hydro w/o the roller was running a nice 135 degrees at the end of mowing. With the roller I was surprised it only picked up about 5 degrees. The engine (kaw 17 hp) was running a nice 150 degrees in the middle of the engine block/cyl area. That was a shocker compared to my 1300 vtwin Yamaha bike w/liquid cooling. I was picking up temps in the 220 degree range and the fan hadn't even kicked in!
None of this proves anything about the hustler...still trying to figure out a way to test it fairly.
Maybe someone who does some commercial mower and owns one of the thermometers will read this and take it to task......otherwise I'll figure something out. The neighbors already think I'm nuts so what the heck....at least I provide cheap entertainment.....lol!

I've always been in the camp that air-cooled engines need to run at full throttle for a few reasons. A neighbor of mine burnt up his weed wacker running it super slow. His theory was that the line lasted longer. Drove me nuts. Line is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new trimmer. I run my Tanaka wide open and is sounds like a go cart!

Here's a funny...I have a 17 year old homelite weedeater I bought for $69. When we moved in the house all the plantings were new so I didn't want to wack the heck out of them. I screwed the idle adjust screw in till it was above idle just a bit and have used it that way ever since. Hardly evrr touch the throttle. My "theory" on the cheap homelite was I'd throw it away when a spark plug didn't fix it. Its still running perfect. I don't think there is a fan on it like a 4 stroke engine. I see the theory that the fan on the four stroke runs faster at full throttle....but all the moving parts are going faster too.
Maybe I'm screwing up but I've never burned an engine up yet! I'll play with the thermometer some....but w/so little lawn its gonna be hard to run a comparison.

kraky said:

Here's a funny...I have a 17 year old homelite weedeater I bought for $69. When we moved in the house all the plantings were new so I didn't want to wack the heck out of them. I screwed the idle adjust screw in till it was above idle just a bit and have used it that way ever since. Hardly evrr touch the throttle. My "theory" on the cheap homelite was I'd throw it away when a spark plug didn't fix it. Its still running perfect. I don't think there is a fan on it like a 4 stroke engine. I see the theory that the fan on the four stroke runs faster at full throttle....but all the moving parts are going faster too. Maybe I'm screwing up but I've never burned an engine up yet! I'll play with the thermometer some....but w/so little lawn its gonna be hard to run a comparison.

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My wife never runs the trimmer full throttle.
One more thing on not running your mower full throttle.
You are running gator blades. The faster they spin the better job they do. They do have a minimum blade tip speed requirement.

I will put it this way. If you can hear the hydros whine then you need to bump the throttle up.

If you are happy with running 3/4 throttle then keep doing it.

I was not trying to criticize you. Was just saying what the manufacturers suggest.

10-4 on the hydro whine....that's like lugging the engine under load. I pulled the roller behind the raptor sd today. Just had to see how it would handle it in a real bad wet spot of the lawn. (Just got 2.5" on clay like soil). On dry ground it didn't seem to know it was back there.....when water flew I couldn't keep a straight line and I went from 6 MPH to 1 MPH a couple tines but never got stuck. And yes...I kept the throttle on full! Its not something I should have done but had to test the limits once. The roller kind of helps erase the tire tracks. The monster tires on the sd54 do well and was the reason I went that big. The deck packed up some but not as bad as I would have guessed. Love my harbor frt $90 hyd lift....had it scraped out in no time.
Overall I'm pretty darn happy w/this machine.

kraky said:

10-4 on the hydro whine....that's like lugging the engine under load. I pulled the roller behind the raptor sd today. Just had to see how it would handle it in a real bad wet spot of the lawn. (Just got 2.5" on clay like soil). On dry ground it didn't seem to know it was back there.....when water flew I couldn't keep a straight line and I went from 6 MPH to 1 MPH a couple tines but never got stuck. And yes...I kept the throttle on full! Its not something I should have done but had to test the limits once. The roller kind of helps erase the tire tracks. The monster tires on the sd54 do well and was the reason I went that big. The deck packed up some but not as bad as I would have guessed. Love my harbor frt $90 hyd lift....had it scraped out in no time. Overall I'm pretty darn happy w/this machine.

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Sounds like you had some fun.

Really been thinking about getting me one.
It's hard for me to switch brands. Been using toro and snapper for years.

Carscw said:

After 2 Kawasaki's both burning oil bad. Less then 400 hours.
I dropped down in hp from the 22hp Kawasaki to a 20hp kohler pro. Much more useable power.
And just as quiet.

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what oil weight you use?

Throttle should always be WFO when the mower is being worked.
Everything on the mower has been designed to work at 3600 rpm or there abouts and running at a lower speed can do damage.
1) alternator will not be at full output so your battery will most likely run down over time.
2) blades are not traveling fast enough through the grass to cut properly although keeping them sharp will over come this some what.
3) hydro pumps never get up to full working pressure leading to higher point loading and premature wear.
4) ditto for the drive motors
5) oil pump will not be delivering full working pressure and may lead to premature big end wear
6) motor is balanced to full revs so running slower can cause premature fatigue cracking due to different vibration characteristics than designed for.

turboawd said:

what oil weight you use?

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Kawasaki oil
With what the dealer puts in it.

Well, I think some of you guys were top fuel drag racers in a former life ....lol! I went to the hydro gear website and could not find a wot recommendation. Their spec sheet said the zt 2800 has an "operational input range" of 1800-3400 rpm. So from that I deduct its engineered to operate over a "range" of rpm. But to be totally sure I sent them an email describing my mowing and asking if i need to run wot.
Now on to the engine. One of the reasons I like 3/4 throttle on my often mowed, short grass, that looks impecable when done is on "my" unit that seems to be the sweet spot for vibration. The engine has to absorb vibration not just from within but also from what its driving. The crankshaft is directly coupled after all to the hydro's and the mower deck. And we've already established it makes full torque under less than wot. I have to think there's a reason it was engineered this way.....and perhaps its why the thing actually comes w/a throttle. Heck...I almost never hear the governor even "hint" at kicking in.
I'll report back when I hear from hydro gear....in the meantime I'll keep running it as smooth as I can and feel I'm doing the right thing.

Carscw said:

Kawasaki oil
With what the dealer puts in it.

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you're in georgia where its real hot. i think a 30 weight is to thin. maybe you should use at least a 40 weight. i'm using 20w-50 which kawasaki even recomends for controlling oil consumption.

kraky said:

Well, I think some of you guys were top fuel drag racers in a former life ....lol! I went to the hydro gear website and could not find a wot recommendation. Their spec sheet said the zt 2800 has an "operational input range" of 1800-3400 rpm. So from that I deduct its engineered to operate over a "range" of rpm. But to be totally sure I sent them an email describing my mowing and asking if i need to run wot.
Now on to the engine. One of the reasons I like 3/4 throttle on my often mowed, short grass, that looks impecable when done is on "my" unit that seems to be the sweet spot for vibration. The engine has to absorb vibration not just from within but also from what its driving. The crankshaft is directly coupled after all to the hydro's and the mower deck. And we've already established it makes full torque under less than wot. I have to think there's a reason it was engineered this way.....and perhaps its why the thing actually comes w/a throttle. Heck...I almost never hear the governor even "hint" at kicking in.
I'll report back when I hear from hydro gear....in the meantime I'll keep running it as smooth as I can and feel I'm doing the right thing.

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i dont think you're doing much harm at 3/4 throttle, but if you were mowing less than that, i'd be concerned.

Did a little temping. Not a perfectly controlled experiment but like this. Got a buddy fighting cancer who lives 5 blocks away. I've been doing his mowing to help out. Drove the mower to his house...its a small but hilly lawn and grass was pretty thick. Mowed right next to wot and drove home when done at wot. When I pulled into my house I temped the block midway between the cyls. It was 190-194 on multiple readings. The hydros were 140. I left the machine parked w/engine at 3/4 throttle. The block temp dropped to 167-170. I revved it up to full throttle...5 mins later the temp was back to 190-194. Throttled back to 3/4....5 min later down to 170.
I realize the engine wasn't "working" but w/all that HP it isn't working when I mow less than wot either.
After paying more attn I think my most vibration free sweet spot is more like 85%. I think in my mind it puts to rest the gotta run wot to keep the engine cool idea.
That 140 degree hydro temp is almost a perfect match to the hydro in my little Deere 180 LT....it checked out 135 during normal mowing and about 140 pulling my roller but I keep ground speed about 2.5 MPH when rolling.
Finally I checked the hydro temps at the end of the engine testing....they'd gone up to 150.....not sure why...maybe a function of the muffler not having any air flow and warming em up? Kinda thinking the whole underneath of the unit sitting there things were getting warm...maybe even hydro fans were drawing some of the "pooled" warm air?
Btw,.....it was a nice cool dry wisconsin 65 degree day.....you guys in Texas n Florida might have different results......lol!

Kraky. I have been wondering if you might be onto something with mowing at 3/4 throttle. I haven't tried it but was already wondering about it before you even posted on this. I have been thinking about this ever since mooch tested the fasttrak on the other thread. My thought is that with a similar blade tip speed the biggest difference is probably the depth of the deck and maybe the opening size. I know that deck design does play a role in it but I wonder if having a high blade tip speed on the deck just causes more airflow than it can handle, so maybe running it at 3/4 throttle brings down the speed and turbulence to something the deck can handle. I am not complaining because I love my raptor sd but I can see certain things that people complain about. I notice on my lawn it has a tendency to miss some stringy weeds, I think because they get blown over and then pop back up. My other thought was using a different blade design. How do you like the gators. Not complain but just wondering.

I like the gators but feel the design drawback is the discharge opening. Depending on how much grass you're cutting will dictate how much throttle you need. I mow often but have nice thick grass so it has to "stand" and face the blades....the wind can't blow it down which can certainly happen like you describe. Even with the gators the deck doesn't have a ton of suction. When I trim next to the mulch bed the SD picks up less than my Deere lawn tractor and less than even my push mower. But I'm also bordered by a gravel driveway so its a good balance. I like the gators and how they work. I sometimes wonder if the deck on the sd's was designed not to be so perfect intentionally. If they put a deck on it like the fasttrac they'd be offering a crazy crazy amount of mower for $4k. They'd hurt sales on the fasttrac and never keep up selling the sd's.

kraky said:

I like the gators but feel the design drawback is the discharge opening. Depending on how much grass you're cutting will dictate how much throttle you need. I mow often but have nice thick grass so it has to "stand" and face the blades....the wind can't blow it down which can certainly happen like you describe. Even with the gators the deck doesn't have a ton of suction. When I trim next to the mulch bed the SD picks up less than my Deere lawn tractor and less than even my push mower. But I'm also bordered by a gravel driveway so its a good balance. I like the gators and how they work. I sometimes wonder if the deck on the sd's was designed not to be so perfect intentionally. If they put a deck on it like the fasttrac they'd be offering a crazy crazy amount of mower for $4k. They'd hurt sales on the fasttrac and never keep up selling the sd's.

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Gator blades are for mulching. Not high lift.
If you want a lot of suction as you call it. Then you need high lift blades.

I use to run only gator blades. But went back to high lift. But I also cut a lot of yards with thick grass.

There are different lifts in different gator blades. The gators for my deere lawn tractor don't have alot of lift in them. The lift area in the ones for my raptor are totally different and have alot of lift built in. I haven't ever run hi lifts on my raptor but there have been alot of posters on this forum who've run the gators AND the high lift and felt the overall discharge and performance went to the gator. Everyone's grass and needs are different so the only way to know is to try them.
Fwiw...I bought the steel discharge mulching cover alone for my raptor. I played with it a bit and find if i follow the 1/3 rule in dry conditions it works OK w/the cover and gator blades. Any moisture though and things build up under the deck....and I have to mow at about 3" so clippings can escape. But the real reason I bought it was to experiment w/fall leaf grinding. It attaches w/just one bolt n wingnut. I figure on doing a pre-grind and" round up" w/the side discharge.......then put the cover on for a fine grind....then take it off and drop the deck one notch for another pass that I think will make em disappear. Sounds like alot if monkeying around but no more than getting the bagger out....putting it on.....hauling crap a cross town to the city composite pile...cleaning up the bagger and putting it away. And I can tackle leaves a couple times before they double/triple layer.

i've tried all the blades on my raptors sd 54. i cut really tall grass and weeds with my machine. the gators worked best as far as keeping the deck clean and discharging grass. i did cut the deck opening a bit bigger which helped a lot.

I have the 22 hp Kawasaki's on two Scags. One has around 600 hours and one a little over 400. Neither is using oil and both run great.

I know of several mowers of different brands running Kohler engines who have had problems.

Turbo, would you mind sharing pictures of you discharge chute modifications?

Thanks.

Got the response back from hydro gear. It was sort of weird. Their first response was the drives would perform at their best at wot. So I asked if running 85% throttle would cause premature wear. The response was "I cannot say but it would be best to run wot and use the controls to slow ground speed".
So...I guess they like wot but aren't really saying why specifically.

This is what Toro says on the subject:

What are the benefits of running your riding mower on full throttle?

-Cleaner cut on the grass
- More power, less likely to bog down
- Less stress on the engine
- Engine runs cooler
- Slow engine speeds can result in hot spots on the cylinder

In addition, many of these machines have hydrostatic transmissions that generate heat during operation. They have a fan that keeps them cool and the fan is driven directly by the engine. Running the engine less than full speed will frequently allow the transmission to overheat. The first sign is usually a lack of power on hills. Permanent transmission damage can result. By keeping the engine at full speed the operator will keep the fan at full speed. This will maximize the air flow for the transmission keeping it cooler and preventing premature failure.
Riding products should be at full throttle at all times.

RetiredGuns said:

This is what Toro says on the subject: What are the benefits of running your riding mower on full throttle? -Cleaner cut on the grass - More power, less likely to bog down - Less stress on the engine - Engine runs cooler - Slow engine speeds can result in hot spots on the cylinder In addition, many of these machines have hydrostatic transmissions that generate heat during operation. They have a fan that keeps them cool and the fan is driven directly by the engine. Running the engine less than full speed will frequently allow the transmission to overheat. The first sign is usually a lack of power on hills. Permanent transmission damage can result. By keeping the engine at full speed the operator will keep the fan at full speed. This will maximize the air flow for the transmission keeping it cooler and preventing premature failure. Riding products should be at full throttle at all times.

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The only time we run mowers at a reduced speed is when we are in close quarters. They do not seem to throw things as bad
Iike rocks and and so forth. Also places where there is bare ground and dust is a problem is another area we drop the rpm's. Other than that it is wide open.

Kind of funny how this thread morphed into what blades to use and throttle speed. Threads tend to do that though...

bradmc said:

Turbo, would you mind sharing pictures of you discharge chute modifications?

Thanks.

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that angled part of the opening would always get a buildup of grass which eventually pluggs up my deck so i cut it square and it helped a lot to prevent a plugged up opening.

here's a pic of a metal rod i had hit, but you can sorta see what i cut.



here's a before shot:

I cant believe people still use their chutes.. First thing I pulled off.

Homer1 said:

I cant believe people still use their chutes.. First thing I pulled off.

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i usually tie mine up, but on windy days, i get a face full of grass if the shoot is up. then i put it down.

Homer1 said:

I cant believe people still use their chutes.. First thing I pulled off.

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I bought two auto side windows in two weeks because we were running with ours tied up. When a rock comes out from under a mower with the chute off or tied up it will many times come out rising. When it comes out with a chute down it comes out deflected downward. In most operations where things are congested the least bit we are again running with ours down. In wide open areas where we can safely do so we run with them up.

RetiredGuns said:

This is what Toro says on the subject:

What are the benefits of running your riding mower on full throttle?

-Cleaner cut on the grass
- More power, less likely to bog down
- Less stress on the engine
- Engine runs cooler
- Slow engine speeds can result in hot spots on the cylinder

In addition, many of these machines have hydrostatic transmissions that generate heat during operation. They have a fan that keeps them cool and the fan is driven directly by the engine. Running the engine less than full speed will frequently allow the transmission to overheat. The first sign is usually a lack of power on hills. Permanent transmission damage can result. By keeping the engine at full speed the operator will keep the fan at full speed. This will maximize the air flow for the transmission keeping it cooler and preventing premature failure.
Riding products should be at full throttle at all times.

Click to expand...

The cooling is proportional to the volume of air passing over the engine and the speed at which it travels.
Your engine is designed to run with the 3600 rpm's worth air blowing over the engine.
Ditto for the drives & motors.
The slower a shaft moves the greater the point load so running at 3/4 speed will tend to load up bushes, does not make all that much difference to balls & rollers.
However with caged needle rollers running too slow ( lugging) can cause the cage to scuff on the outer race and break up.
Finally alternators output increases with engine speed and running too slow can drain the battery.
Boundry lubrication requires a minimum volume and pressure of oil to work effectively and running too slow will reduce both the volume & pressure of the oil feed to the big end.