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Fuel

#1

T

TLloyd

Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!


#2

mikehouse

mikehouse

Hey TLloyd,i'm in NC myself,but I see no reason you can't use regular fuel.As long as you don't let it get stale.Now that WILL cause problems.I like using a stabilizer to keep it as fresh as possible while stored.I'm partial to Seafoam.But there's others out there.2 small capfuls in your gas can should suffice.Let's hear from some others.Good advice on here.


#3

7394

7394

Seafoam been around since 1942 i believe..


#4

R

Rifraph48

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
I only use ethanol free gasoline for all of my small engines. It cost more per gallon but I think (I do not have hard data) that the lifecycle cost for the use of the equipment is less. Further, the engines always start an run good even if that have been sitting for a few months. Ethanol can damage a two cycle engine as the ethanol can separate out (phase separation) and you will seriously damage the engine. On the four cycle engines, I have replaced carburetors after years of use of ethanol gasoline but the engines run for years with no issues if I only use ethanol free gasoline. I also treat all of my small engine ethanol free gasoline with Schaeffer Oil Neutra™ Fuel Stabilizer (https://www.schaefferoil.com/neutra.html). There may be other additives from Schaeffer's or others that work, too.

Bottom line: I only use ethanol free gasoline treated with Schaeffer's Neutra Fuel Stabilizer and I have nearly zero engine fuel related issues on multiple engine types and brands. I go through a lot of gasoline in the summer on the ranch. My experience with this is over many years.


#5

R

Rifraph48

Rifraph48 said:
I only use ethanol free gasoline for all of my small engines. It cost more per gallon but I think (I do not have hard data) that the lifecycle cost for the use of the equipment is less. Further, the engines always start an run good even if that have been sitting for a few months. Ethanol can damage a two cycle engine as the ethanol can separate out (phase separation) and you will seriously damage the engine. On the four cycle engines, I have replaced carburetors after years of use of ethanol gasoline but the engines run for years with no issues if I only use ethanol free gasoline. I also treat all of my small engine ethanol free gasoline with Schaeffer Oil Neutra™ Fuel Stabilizer (https://www.schaefferoil.com/neutra.html). There may be other additives from Schaeffer's or others that work, too.

Bottom line: I only use ethanol free gasoline treated with Schaeffer's Neutra Fuel Stabilizer and I have nearly zero engine fuel related issues on multiple engine types and brands. I go through a lot of gasoline in the summer on the ranch. My experience with this is over many years.
Click to expand...
Forgive my typos/spelling. They always show up AFTER posting regardless of my proofreading!


#6

R

Rifraph48

Rifraph48 said:
Forgive my typos/spelling. They always show up AFTER posting regardless of my proofreading!
Click to expand...
BTW, buy your ethanol free gasoline at a station where you know it is fairly fresh. I suspect some stations sell little of it so it ages and gasoline does not age well unless it is treated.


#7

TonyPrin

TonyPrin

As long as you're mindful to not store gasoline over 2 months there is no reason to use ethanol-free gasoline. Fresh or reasonably fresh gasoline won't damage a small engine. Check your manual and I think you'll see B&S agrees with me.


#8

T

Tbone0106

Interesting comments here. I've been working for a lot of years as a small-engine service guy, and I'm the kid that tore down the little Briggs engine on Dad's push mower in 1966, when I was eleven years old. I've seen a few things.

Fuel stabilizers don't work to prevent the damage ethanol does. Ethanol -- grain alcohol -- is hydrophilic, meaning that it likes water a LOT. Ethanol likes water so much that it can literally be removed from blended gasoline by adding water to the blended mix. (That's exactly how ethanol content testers do their thing.) Ethanol is water-soluble; gasoline is not. But ethanol will literally attract water, even the humidity in the air. I would be afraid to estimate how many times I've torn down a small-engine carburetor and found lime deposits in the bowl. The lime (calcium) is carried there by water.

I use non-ethanol gas in my occasional-use small engines -- chainsaws, weed whackers, leaf blowers, tillers, etc. Yes, it's more expensive, though where I live the difference is nowhere near a dollar a gallon. It's more like 30 cents. But it's also 91 octane, compared to the 87 octane ethanol-polluted stuff. For use on my three-acre property, the extra cost is so worth it that it's hard to describe. In the mowers, I'll use the ethanol-laced stuff during the peak mowing season, which is May-July around here, because I know it won't sit in the fuel systems for very long. But when things start to slow down in late August, it's non-ethanol gas only.

Putting corn likker into our gas tanks is truly one of the dumbest things our national government has ever come up with.


#9

R

Rifraph48

Tbone0106 said:
Interesting comments here. I've been working for a lot of years as a small-engine service guy, and I'm the kid that tore down the little Briggs engine on Dad's push mower in 1966, when I was eleven years old. I've seen a few things.

Fuel stabilizers don't work to prevent the damage ethanol does. Ethanol -- grain alcohol -- is hydrophilic, meaning that it likes water a LOT. Ethanol likes water so much that it can literally be removed from blended gasoline by adding water to the blended mix. (That's exactly how ethanol content testers do their thing.) Ethanol is water-soluble; gasoline is not. But ethanol will literally attract water, even the humidity in the air. I would be afraid to estimate how many times I've torn down a small-engine carburetor and found lime deposits in the bowl. The lime (calcium) is carried there by water.

I use non-ethanol gas in my occasional-use small engines -- chainsaws, weed whackers, leaf blowers, tillers, etc. Yes, it's more expensive, though where I live the difference is nowhere near a dollar a gallon. It's more like 30 cents. But it's also 91 octane, compared to the 87 octane ethanol-polluted stuff. For use on my three-acre property, the extra cost is so worth it that it's hard to describe. In the mowers, I'll use the ethanol-laced stuff during the peak mowing season, which is May-July around here, because I know it won't sit in the fuel systems for very long. But when things start to slow down in late August, it's non-ethanol gas only.

Putting corn likker into our gas tanks is truly one of the dumbest things our national government has ever come up with.
Click to expand...
"Putting corn likker into our gas tanks is truly one of the dumbest things our national government has ever come up with." Consider that it might not be dumb. It might be corruption. What if it is a way to launder taxpayer money? Cargill likes the program so much they give a lot of taxpayer sourced money to both parties in DC. Also, I measured the ethanol content (it is 0-10%) in the gasoline (it is not hard to do) for my car for a while and determined that it would reduce my mpg by up to 20% (My Corolla would drop from 40 mpg to 32 mpg hwy). If I know that, the EPA knows that.


#10

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The great ethanol vs non-ethanol debate rages on!!!!

Just like oil, oil filters, spark plugs use what gas makes you happy. I have about 30 things with gas engines that all run regular pump gas and i have stored regular gas in cans for over a year. Never had an issue. I guess i am just luckier than most.


#11

S

Skippydiesel

Some older engines fuel metering & supply systems will be damaged by ethanol in the fuel.- - do not use ethanol blends.
Many modern engines will run just fine on ethanol blends (see owners manual for recommendations).

Long Term Storage (in excess of 2 months)
If there is any danger of fuel aging to the point of "varnishing" the fuel metering system or separating out (free water);
Drain ALL the fuel from the tank to the metering (injectors/carburettor bowl). This is the cheapest, surest way of minimising in storage fuel systems.
When ready to use engine again, refuel with nice clean, fresh fuel - make sure its being supplied to the metering system. (Freshly charged battery, if required) start in usual way - almost all engines will spring to life without any problem.


#12

T

Tbone0106

Rifraph48 said:
"Putting corn likker into our gas tanks is truly one of the dumbest things our national government has ever come up with." Consider that it might not be dumb. It might be corruption. What if it is a way to launder taxpayer money? Cargill likes the program so much they give a lot of taxpayer sourced money to both parties in DC. Also, I measured the ethanol content (it is 0-10%) in the gasoline (it is not hard to do) for my car for a while and determined that it would reduce my mpg by up to 20% (My Corolla would drop from 40 mpg to 32 mpg hwy). If I know that, the EPA knows that.
Click to expand...
Of course the EPA knows it. In recent years, the EPA has required so much ethanol to be blended into the fuel supply that the fuel supply literally can't take it all. As cars and trucks become more fuel-efficient, fuel production has fallen far short of EPA estimates, and there's no place to put the ethanol. If it weren't so sad and expensive, it would be entertaining.

Based on energy content, a 10% ethanol blend would drop your mileage by 3-4%. (Of course, the EPA never mentions this.) I'm surprised by your findings.


#13

H

hdsport

Yes, this has been a very controversial topic over the years.
There are two aspects to this issue: personal / professional experience and chemistry.
Simply put, experience has demonstrated that ethanol gas does damage small engine components.
Next, the corrosive capacity of ethanol in the small engine system is well documented.
I'm not going to elaborate on these topics....you all have read and sometimes have experienced the negative effects of ethanol gas.

Several years ago I switched to non-ethanol gas in all of my small engines.
NO problems since...all start easily, even after sitting over the winter.
I have documented one thig. I used to have to stop mowing to add more ethanol gas to my push mower before I finished cutting my lawn.
Switched to non-ethanol and now I cut my complete lawn and still have gas left over in the tank.

No need to discuss this further. We all know the political and economical concerns that drive this.

I will continue to pay a little more to use non-ethanol gas for all of my 2 and 4 cycle needs.
In the 'long run', it is really more economical. The few $'s that I save at the pump doesn't compare the the problems that result and the personal time involved.

Your engine, your time, your money. Your Call.


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

My ⛽️ is better than scrubs ⛽️


#15

S

Shady oak

I use non ethanol 91 octane in two cycle stuff with Sea Foam. Since starting that concept 15 yrs ago non of that equipment has ever seen the inside of a repair shop. Recently sold a Jonsrud string trimmer that had sat for about 6 yrs. Added fresh gas and it started right up. For regular use 4 cycle engines I use 87 octane 10% ethanol no lead. No Seafoam and no problems!


#16

T

TC25Dave

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
Life is short. You should absolutely use non-ethanol in your small engines and avoid all the maintenance problems that the U.S. government has foisted upon you by insisting that alcohol be added to gasoline. They are not your friend, and they are not here to help you!


#17

B

bitdemon

I've just replaced a car fuel tank that had the pickup tube completely rusted up and covered in blackish mold-like substance. It had been unused and in the shed for about a year or so. The fuel gauge sender looked like something out of a horror movie. I 100% put this down to E10 and the internet backs me up on this.
In infrequently used engines, the water and oxygen (which is present not just at the air/liquid interface, but also in the form of dissolved oxygen) can create the perfect environment to grow a type of bacteria called acetobacter. These acetobacter excrete acetic acid causing microbiologically-induced corrosion. Fuel pickup tubes and gauge senders are prime targets. Sulphate-reducing microbes can also be present which will be evidenced by blackish corrosion products in affected areas.
So, what can you do? E10 isn’t a favorite of older engines anyway, so it isn’t likely that you would intentionally put these fuels in long-sitters or even those that are only unused during winter. Filling the tank to minimize any possible room for condensation to form, which occurs irrespective of the fuel type, helps but perhaps the most important thing you can do is to add a fuel stabilizer. As well as minimizing the evaporation of short-chain aromatics that causes fuel to go 'stale', they often contain biocides preventing the growth of the bacteria primarily responsible for corrosion. Check the label - it could save a lot of headaches in time!


#18

R

ran440

Not sure anyone mentioned damage to soft parts. Your engines may run on ethanol laced fuels, but as long as you are running it it is doing damage to your fuel lines, o-rings, seals and diaphragms. All soft parts. Ever wonder why your fuel lines on your line trimmer can snap like a stick? Or a diaphragm that has no flex at all? For many years now I have used nothing but rec-fuel and Seafoam and recommend the same to all my customers.


#19

G

Grasswhore

Shady oak said:
I use non ethanol 91 octane in two cycle stuff with Sea Foam. Since starting that concept 15 yrs ago non of that equipment has ever seen the inside of a repair shop. Recently sold a Jonsrud string trimmer that had sat for about 6 yrs. Added fresh gas and it started right up. For regular use 4 cycle engines I use 87 octane 10% ethanol no lead. No Seafoam and no problems!
Click to expand...
Go to You Tube and watch Taryl Fixes All, he did a 19 month real time test of ethanol fuel and additives for same. The conclusion is ethanol free fuel, alone, is fine for 6 months too 2 years. 10% ethanol fuel starts to do bad things after 6 months no matter what you add. Even they were surprised how ineffective sea foam was. I consider this a must watch video even if you don't like the silliness. His test method was very sound and real life relatable


#20

F

Freddie21

I have watched many tests being done on the subject of ethanol and additives. My take-away is the it takes over a year for the ethanol to separate out and gel up. Most additives do nothing for that. Ethanol free gas does not gel. So, for my 4 cycle engines I use regular 87 octane gas and add Stable 360 in the Winter for my own peace of mind. I use the same in my 2 strokes but for seldom use units (chain saws), I run them dry and empty the tank. Trimmers I have gone battery.


#21

P

Projectnut

Another vote for NON-Ethanol gas. Over the years I have accumulated nearly 2 dozen gas powered pieces of yard care equipment. The collection includes weed eaters, edgers, rototillers, lawn mowers, chain saws, snow blowers, hedge trimmers, garden tractors and a few other tools. When ethanol gas became mandatory, I was rebuilding carburetors and replacing gas lines on an annual basis. It got so bad that I was stocking carburetor kits and buying different sizes of gas line by the 50-foot spool.

It was a royal never-ending PITA. After a few years the non-ethanol variety came back in our area as "recreational" gas mainly to be used in outboards, snowmobiles and ATV's. I immediately switched and the carb and fuel line problems went away. Some places have only premium grade while others have regular. Both seem to work well without destroying fuel systems. Premium is a bit more expensive, but still a real time saver since I don't have to deal with rebuilding carbs and replacing fuel lines. The fuel lines stay flexible, and the carbs don't gum up. I add a little Stabil to each when I retire them for the season and have no trouble starting them the next time they're needed.

If at all possible, I'll never use ethanol gas again in any engine under 40 hp.


#22

1

1fordpickup1

I Have working on small engines since 1955. I have never bought the first gallon of non ethenol fuel and I have never read an owners manual or never seen a gas cap that said to use non ethenol fuel. We sell Stihl, Honda, Exmark, and Scag.


#23

rhiebert

rhiebert

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weed-eater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eater earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-Ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...


#24

rhiebert

rhiebert

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weed-eater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weed-eater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eater earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...


#25

rhiebert

rhiebert

Gas with ethanol will create water so my suggestion would be to use a fuel additive and quality synthetic engine oil.


#26

Dixie Boosh Wookie

Dixie Boosh Wookie

Keep the corn squeezin's out of your fuel tanks. You'll sleep better at night.
More sage advise, if the gub'mint says it's good, 99% of the time, it ain't. ;)


#27

B

Belmoresr

Rifraph48 said:
I only use ethanol free gasoline for all of my small engines. It cost more per gallon but I think (I do not have hard data) that the lifecycle cost for the use of the equipment is less. Further, the engines always start an run good even if that have been sitting for a few months. Ethanol can damage a two cycle engine as the ethanol can separate out (phase separation) and you will seriously damage the engine. On the four cycle engines, I have replaced carburetors after years of use of ethanol gasoline but the engines run for years with no issues if I only use ethanol free gasoline. I also treat all of my small engine ethanol free gasoline with Schaeffer Oil Neutra™ Fuel Stabilizer (https://www.schaefferoil.com/neutra.html). There may be other additives from Schaeffer's or others that work, too.

Bottom line: I only use ethanol free gasoline treated with Schaeffer's Neutra Fuel Stabilizer and I have nearly zero engine fuel related issues on multiple engine types and brands. I go through a lot of gasoline in the summer on the ranch. My experience with this is over many years.
Click to expand...
I 100% agree, except I use STABIL vs. Schaefer’s. Never had a fuel related issue since going completely to ethanol free gas and STABIL. BE


#28

R

rutbuster1

On riding mowers and push mowers (if you have room), just install a fuel cut-off valve. When you're through with cutting grass or whatever and park it, turn off the cut-off valve and let it run till it shuts off. Ethanol problem solved. I use my equipment enough year round and really don't have to worry too much about ethanol related issues. With 2 stroke equipment, it depends on how often it's used. If it's going to be stored for months either use non-ethanol, canned fuel, or pour out the gas and run the equipment till it quits. You can also use a gas stabilizer. I put stabilizer in my fuel whether it's non ethanol or not. Eventually, regardless what you do, you'll have carb related issues a time or two.


#29

E

edporch

Since I began using ethanol free gasoline in all of my lawn equipment and saws several years ago, I've had zero carburetor trouble.
No more gallons than it takes to power my stuff, the extra cost isn't an issue with the 3.5 acres I mow.
PLUS, it's available at many filling stations at the pump (I never buy those cans from the stores of it).
Here's a list of a lot of them around the country.

Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada

Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.
www.pure-gas.org www.pure-gas.org


#30

grumpyunk

grumpyunk

You can cause the ethanol to separate out of your E10. Just add water. The ETOH will combine with the water and fall to the bottom of the fuel container. Decant the ethanol-free gasoline that lies atop the water and you have fuel without ethanol.
Try it with a jar of fuel, adding some water, and you will see the ETOH fall to the bottom. There are YT videos on the procedure. It is useful if you have no local sources of ETOH free fuel and want to run without its effects. Most older equipment is more subject to damage to 'rubber' parts than newer as the ETOH can/will start to break down the rubber. I have seen fuel line on an AYP that looked perfect externally, but was totally coming apart inside. Took a while to figure out why it would not flow fuel very well... a hidden feature.
tom


#31

J

JD14SB

I find that the 2-cycle small engines such as those on a String Trimmer, Leaf Blower, Mini Mantis Tiller, Chainsaw, and Edgers do need Ethanol-free Gasoline. If regular gasoline is used, the metering diaphragm and fuel pump diaphragm in the Carburetor will lose their flexibility. Corrosion can also result which requires a new Carburetor to fix. Many larger engines do OK on regular gasoline as long as there isn't a bunch of rubber parts in the Carburetor and. My Honda HR-215 Mower made from the late 80's to early 90's still has the original Carburetor. The regular gasoline absorbs water (ethanol). When it cannot absorb any more, than you have water sitting in the gas tank and Carburetor. This will corrode the Carburetors. So when the piece of equipment is parked for the season, run it out of gasoline and it will be fine. I like it when People use regular gasoline and don't drain it or leave it in a 2-cycle Engine since I repair small engines. I see dollar signs.


#32

P

plt156pi

Hammermechanicman said:
The great ethanol vs non-ethanol debate rages on!!!!

Just like oil, oil filters, spark plugs use what gas makes you happy. I have about 30 things with gas engines that all run regular pump gas and i have stored regular gas in cans for over a year. Never had an issue. I guess i am just luckier than most.
Click to expand...
Either that or you work for the EPA


#33

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

I have a stihl fs80 bought in 1998. It has had over 100 tanks of fuel throught it. Worn out 3 string heads. Never had E free gas in it. Replaced a split primer bulb but nothing else about the carb. Original fuel lines and diaphragm. Runs just fine. I run all the handhelds dry at the end of the season. If i had easy access to E free i would buy it but none close. I use about 100 gallons a year in OPE stuff. E10 works just fine. YMMV


#34

M

marinusdees

Projectnut said:
Another vote for NON-Ethanol gas. Over the years I have accumulated nearly 2 dozen gas powered pieces of yard care equipment. The collection includes weed eaters, edgers, rototillers, lawn mowers, chain saws, snow blowers, hedge trimmers, garden tractors and a few other tools. When ethanol gas became mandatory, I was rebuilding carburetors and replacing gas lines on an annual basis. It got so bad that I was stocking carburetor kits and buying different sizes of gas line by the 50-foot spool.

It was a royal never-ending PITA. After a few years the non-ethanol variety came back in our area as "recreational" gas mainly to be used in outboards, snowmobiles and ATV's. I immediately switched and the carb and fuel line problems went away. Some places have only premium grade while others have regular. Both seem to work well without destroying fuel systems. Premium is a bit more expensive, but still a real time saver since I don't have to deal with rebuilding carbs and replacing fuel lines. The fuel lines stay flexible, and the carbs don't gum up. I add a little Stabil to each when I retire them for the season and have no trouble starting them the next time they're needed.

If at all possible, I'll never use ethanol gas again in any engine under 40 hp.
Click to expand...
Ethanol raises hell with most carburetors, but especially diaphragm carbs,, eats the diaphragm. Adding ethanol to gasoline is like adding sawdust to hamburger.


#35

B

billroy1

Tbone0106 said:
Interesting comments here. I've been working for a lot of years as a small-engine service guy, and I'm the kid that tore down the little Briggs engine on Dad's push mower in 1966, when I was eleven years old. I've seen a few things.

Fuel stabilizers don't work to prevent the damage ethanol does. Ethanol -- grain alcohol -- is hydrophilic, meaning that it likes water a LOT. Ethanol likes water so much that it can literally be removed from blended gasoline by adding water to the blended mix. (That's exactly how ethanol content testers do their thing.) Ethanol is water-soluble; gasoline is not. But ethanol will literally attract water, even the humidity in the air. I would be afraid to estimate how many times I've torn down a small-engine carburetor and found lime deposits in the bowl. The lime (calcium) is carried there by water.

I use non-ethanol gas in my occasional-use small engines -- chainsaws, weed whackers, leaf blowers, tillers, etc. Yes, it's more expensive, though where I live the difference is nowhere near a dollar a gallon. It's more like 30 cents. But it's also 91 octane, compared to the 87 octane ethanol-polluted stuff. For use on my three-acre property, the extra cost is so worth it that it's hard to describe. In the mowers, I'll use the ethanol-laced stuff during the peak mowing season, which is May-July around here, because I know it won't sit in the fuel systems for very long. But when things start to slow down in late August, it's non-ethanol gas only.

Putting corn likker into our gas tanks is truly one of the dumbest things our national government has ever come up with.
Click to expand...
I know I don't know much about anything especially gas but I have been putting a couple oz's of the red Iso HEET water remover along with some Stabil when I buy gas for both 2 & 4 strokes and I have had no gas problems at all for 9 years now, that I do know but who knows it may damage engines for all I know


#36

I

ILENGINE

The same people that have been complaining about alcohol in the gas have been adding alcohol to their gas for years. They used methanol in their gas to prevent freezing fuel lines, but then complain about the effect of ethanol.


#37

R

RevB

SAE report....

Assessment of the Effectiveness of Three Aftermarket Gasoline Fuel Stabilizers in Preventing Gum Formation and Loss of Oxidation Stability 2022-01-0486​



Fuel stabilizers have long been marketed to consumers to prevent oxidation and gum formation. In the past, gasoline storage for long periods of time was commonly limited to off-road equipment that was used infrequently. Cars and trucks that were driven regularly consumed the fuel in their tanks rapidly enough to avoid excessive fuel aging. However, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) may be operated frequently without engine operation, raising the possibility that fuel may be stored in the tank for longer periods of time. Studies of the oxidation of gasoline have provided scientific understanding of the process, but there is little if any scientifically backed information aimed at aiding consumers in assessing the need to use an aftermarket fuel stabilizer if they anticipate lengthy periods of fuel storage in their fuel tank. This study was conceived to address this information gap by evaluating three aftermarket stabilizer products alongside baseline gasoline using sealed samples over a period of 12 months of aging. The aging was carried out under ambient temperature conditions with an additional series of samples kept in refrigerated storage. Analyses of vapor pressure, copper strip corrosion, oxidation stability, existent gums, and potential gums were carried out using standard ASTM tests to evaluate the samples as aging progressed. The results show that baseline gasoline remained compliant with relevant specifications to at least 12 months of aging without the use of aftermarket stabilizer additives. Use of two of the aftermarket additives increased the oxidation stability of the baseline gasoline, but this added stability was not necessary to comply with gasoline specifications.


#38

E

Edgy

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
There are many approaches to this that work. I use two cycle equipment on 2/3 acres in Louisiana. I use Trufuel. (A lot of opinions about this product too.) But I have not had any issues in 15 years, and I don’t dump my fuel. I talked to the chemist who developed this product. He said the product has a 2-year shelf-life. I would say using non-ethanol fuel ranks #2, but dump it after season’s end. Jump on YouTube and see the experiments on 4-cycle engines done by Teryl.


#39

R

RevB

ILENGINE said:
The same people that have been complaining about alcohol in the gas have been adding alcohol to their gas for years. They used methanol in their gas to prevent freezing fuel lines, but then complain about the effect of ethanol.
Click to expand...
In concentrations above 30%, ethanol will act as a cylinder wall oil wash and accelerate wear. By now all modern engines are compatible with 10 and 15% ethanol. In the 70s raced a Hirth powered 634cc Arctic Cat on 100% methanol. That crap would give you a really bad headache if you didn't wear a respirator and shorten your life as well.


#40

B

billroy1

billroy1 said:
I know I don't know much about anything especially gas but I have been putting a couple oz's of the red Iso HEET water remover along with some Stabil when I buy gas for both 2 & 4 strokes and I have had no gas problems at all for 9 years now, that I do know but who knows it may damage engines for all I know
Click to expand...


#41

B

billroy1

Wow, I never Knew I was putting alcohol (Heet) in my gas to get rid of the ethanol in the gas I bought in the first place, and then bragging about how well it works, I was obviously thinking out loud, it just doesn't make sense, Thank you for all the info


#42

J

Johner

Hammermechanicman said:
The great ethanol vs non-ethanol debate rages on!!!!

Just like oil, oil filters, spark plugs use what gas makes you happy. I have about 30 things with gas engines that all run regular pump gas and i have stored regular gas in cans for over a year. Never had an issue. I guess i am just luckier than most.
Click to expand...
I also store pump gas and use a stabilizer all year (marine type) . I get less work because most of the customers back with less fuel problems. They finally took my advice. Keep the fuel out of the direct sun you will have less problems.


#43

J

Johner

billroy1 said:
Wow, I never Knew I was putting alcohol (Heet) in my gas to get rid of the ethanol in the gas I bought in the first place, and then bragging about how well it works, I was obviously thinking out loud, it just doesn't make sense, Thank you for all the info
Click to expand...
2cycle engines must us 89 octane or better, has less heat than 87.


#44

R

rdedrick

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
How many gallons do you actually go through? I usually burn about 5 gallons per mowing cycle. That is an extra $5. Certainly worth it for the lack of aggravation I have experienced in the past. The two stroke stuff preforms much better on gasoline as well.


#45

S

Skippydiesel

I do not use ethanol blended fuel.

The above statement is a personal choice, not a support of all the BS about E blend fuels.

## Modern engined will & do run just fine on E fuel - fact! Most if not all engine makers have switched over to ethanol tolerant fuel system materials.
## Older engined fuel systems (tank to carburettor) are likly to be negatively impacted/damaged by the ethanol - don't use E blends!

Ethanol is less energy dense than petrol - a petrol E blend, will deliver less power per litre, than a straight petrol of the same quality. The result is higher fuel consumption for a given output = less mpg/mpk or less grass area mown for the same fuel consumption.

You, as a consumer, will have to decide if the lower purchase price of Eblend, results in less, more or equal, cost per unit area of grass mown.

E is hygroscopic - storage of E (in tank or jerry) may result in free water collecting in the bottom of the tank, and or fuel system causing corrosion of metal components potentially development of bacterial growth/scum/gel - do not store E blend for extended periods in your engine or in metal containers.

I doubt the environmental benefits of E, given the energy ( diesel and other chemicals) that go into its production.

The use of E blend is manageable, it's use comes down to personal choice (if alternatives available).


#46

R

RevB

Johner said:
2cycle engines must us 89 octane or better, has less heat than 87.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. Stop spreading crap. The effective compression ratio of any utility two stroke is around 6 to 7 to one, no where near detonation territory and added octane only has the effect of draining your bank account faster.

Get an education......

Gasoline FAQ - Part 1 of 4

Gasoline FAQ - Part 1 of 4
www.faqs.org


#47

I

ILENGINE

RevB said:
Bullshit. Stop spreading crap. The effective compression ratio of any utility two stroke is around 6 to 7 to one, no where near detonation territory and added octane only has the effect of draining your bank account faster.

Get an education......

Gasoline FAQ - Part 1 of 4

Gasoline FAQ - Part 1 of 4
www.faqs.org
Click to expand...
And you are wrong. Several 2 cycle engines are in the area of 10-11:1 There are a lot of 2 cycle engines that won't even fire at the ratios you are trying to sell us. Go do your research and stop spreading false information.

Why do you think that Stihl, Husqvarna Dolmar/Makita all requires 90+


#48

P

Peva

I'll add one piece of info. to the discussion:

A few years ago, I remarked on an automotive forum that it puzzled me that consumer lawnmower engines definitely have a lot of problems with old 10% ethanol fuel, but cars did not.

A guy who frequented that forum and that worked on the technical side of the trucking industry solved the mystery. He said that the difference was that fuel systems of automobiles are required to be sealed, whereas the fuel systems of lawnmowers and most other small-engine devices were not sealed - i.e, were freely vented to atmosphere. Not only does that passively expose the fuel to air and moisture, but as ambient temperatures rose and fell routinely through night-time/day-time cycles, the gas tank "breathed" fresh air and moisture in and out as the air expanded and contracted with the daily temperature fluctuations - bringing a fresh batch of moisture into the tank every day to react with the ethanol in the fuel. Car fuel systems being sealed, they don't get a new batch of air and moisture constantly being pushed in and out of the tank.

That goes right along with what some of you said about moisture and ethanol interaction. But for me, it explained in particular why lawnmowers and other smaller engine devices don't tolerate aged ethanol fuel, whereas old ethanol fuel doesn't seem to bother running/starting quality of cars.


#49

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Johner said:
2cycle engines must us 89 octane or better, has less heat than 87.
Click to expand...
Say what????????

I have about 15 2 strokes all running 87 regular. 2 of which are chainsaws running 195psi compression and advanced timing with ported cylinders.

Why do i need 89 octane RATED gas?Compress_20240921_203110_0796.jpg


#50

S

Skippydiesel

Peva,

"But for me, it explained in particular why lawnmowers and other smaller engine devices don't tolerate aged ethanol fuel, whereas old ethanol fuel doesn't seem to bother running/starting quality of car"

Free water in fuel is rare, if sourced from a reputable supplier with a high turnover, keeping the fuel fresh. No engine, new or old, likes water in the fuel.

Older engines (fuel systems) even in cars, may not tolerate E in fuel - this is because the system may have components that the E will damage. O rings, hoses, floats, valves, etc are often damaged by E.

Any petrol powered engine (rated to use E blend) will run just fine on ethanol blend. High usage (regular refresh) is the best. Low usage, especially when tank below 75% full, for extended periods, is more likly to result in condensation (water) contaminating the fuel.

"....systems of automobiles are required to be sealed...."

ALL fuel tanks "breathe" atmospheric air - to my understanding no conventional fuel tanks are sealed. True they may have a higher degree of "sealing" than say a mower. If truly sealed. they would collapse as the fuel was used and or atmospheric pressure/temperature changes impacted on them. All air contains more/less water vapour that will condense on relativly cool surfaces. Metal fuel tanks are more prone to condensation than plastic.


#51

P

Peva

Skippydiesel said:
Peva,

"But for me, it explained in particular why lawnmowers and other smaller engine devices don't tolerate aged ethanol fuel, whereas old ethanol fuel doesn't seem to bother running/starting quality of car"

Free water in fuel is rare, if sourced from a reputable supplier with a high turnover, keeping the fuel fresh. No engine, new or old, likes water in the fuel.

Older engines (fuel systems) even in cars, may not tolerate E in fuel - this is because the system may have components that the E will damage. O rings, hoses, floats, valves, etc are often damaged by E.

Any petrol powered engine (rated to use E blend) will run just fine on ethanol blend. High usage (regular refresh) is the best. Low usage, especially when tank below 75% full, for extended periods, is more likly to result in condensation (water) contaminating the fuel.

"....systems of automobiles are required to be sealed...."

ALL fuel tanks "breathe" atmospheric air - to my understanding no conventional fuel tanks are sealed. True they may have a higher degree of "sealing" than say a mower. If truly sealed. they would collapse as the fuel was used and or atmospheric pressure/temperature changes impacted on them. All air contains more/less water vapour that will condense on relativly cool surfaces. Metal fuel tanks are more prone to condensation than plastic.
Click to expand...
"Sealed" was too strong a word. You can fault me for oversimplifying to keep my post less verbose. 😁👍

(Putting on my tap shoes...)

Car systems allow a controlled pressure relief, and of course, as you suggest, allow air to enter to displace the freed up tank volume as fuel is used. The evaporative emissions system limits (controls) free exchange with the atmosphere in regards to the vapor pressure of the fuel.

That is different than having the tank essentially open to the atmosphere as it would be with a non-sealing gas cap (or passive breather hole in the top of the tank). With the ignition off, the various evaporative emission system valves communicating to the atmosphere are of the "normally closed" type (no free exchange of gaseous substances), so the system at that point is essentially sealed to the atmosphere. When the system is active (ignition on), vapors are ported to the engine plenum (downstream of the throttle body) thru a vacuum hose connection.


#52

S

stihlmania

Peva said:
"Sealed" was too strong a word. You can fault me for oversimplifying to keep my post less verbose. 😁👍

(Putting on my tap shoes...)

Car systems allow a controlled pressure relief, and of course, as you suggest, allow air to enter to displace the freed up tank volume as fuel is used. The evaporative emissions system limits (controls) free exchange with the atmosphere in regards to the vapor pressure of the fuel.

That is different than having the tank essentially open to the atmosphere as it would be with a non-sealing gas cap (or passive breather hole in the top of the tank). With the ignition off, the various evaporative emission system valves communicating to the atmosphere are of the "normally closed" type (no free exchange of gaseous substances), so the system at that point is essentially sealed to the atmosphere. When the system is active (ignition on), vapors are ported to the engine plenum (downstream of the throttle body) thru a vacuum hose connection.
Click to expand...
Your typical canister vent valve only closes during engine running evap self testing. This checks evap system integrity….


#53

P

Peva

stihlmania said:
Your typical canister vent valve only closes during engine running evap self testing. This checks evap system integrity….
Click to expand...
Here's information from the FSM of one of my vehicles (see the 2 attachments including the evaporative emissions system diagram and some text descriptions). The only paths from the canister to atmosphere are through the purge valve (ports under vacuum to the plenum downstream of the throttle body to suck out and burn any vapors) and through the NVLD (Natural Vacuum Leak Detector assembly) and its breather (on the atmosphere side of the NVLD).

Of the purge valve, the FSM says (in 1st attachment): "When de-energized [which would be the case with ignition off], no vapors are purged."

Of the NVLD, it says (2nd attachment): "The NVLD seals the canister vent during engine off conditions." Elsewhere (not in the attachments), it says: "The normally closed valve in the NVLD is intended to maintain the seal on the evaporative system during the engine off condition."

The only other (third) possible communication path to atmosphere leads to the fuel cap and fuel tank, which are totally dead ended (except when cap is removed).

I think I am correct in saying that the entire point of the federal regulations that drive the design of the fuel and evaporative emissions systems is to prevent raw fuel vapors from going into the atmosphere, which pretty much precludes free breathing in either direction except for brief periods of time, such as when re-fueling (cap off).

Attachments







#54

H

hlw49

Have a Tanaka TBC340 trimmer I bought in 2004 have always used non-ethanol fuel in it and have never done a carb job on it. Go out prime it choke and it starts right up. Runs like a champ.


#55

VirginiaIron

VirginiaIron

I have stored ethanol fuel in the "new" oring sealed cans and I have had no issues to date. I use ethanol fuel in everything, without treatment because the gas gets used quickly. But, I do use non-lethal fuel for mixed fuel, chainsaws, and those small engines that do not get run often enough, log splitters/snow blowers. I have noticed that the equipment with metal tanks do have a residue on the inner steel wall which may eventually clog a filter or carburetor. Also, I test my non ethanol fuel purchase at the station.


#56

Riick

Riick

T-bone... Exactly how does the calcium get drawn out of the air?
They taught me, and I've observed, that when "hard water" evaporates into the air, the minerals are left behind. Rainwater is mineral free.
Humidity should, I think, be same/similar.
You sure it's Calcium ??


Tbone0106 said:
...... I would be afraid to estimate how many times I've torn down a small-engine carburetor and found lime deposits in the bowl. The lime (calcium) is carried there by water.....
Click to expand...


#57

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

I just love this thread!
All of the internet scientists 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm not a qualified internet scientist but i did stay a a holiday inn express once.
🤭


#58

P

Peva

Riick said:
T-bone... Exactly how does the calcium get drawn out of the air?
They taught me, and I've observed, that when "hard water" evaporates into the air, the minerals are left behind. Rainwater is mineral free.
Humidity should, I think, be same/similar.
You sure it's Calcium ??
Click to expand...
I wondered about that too. Distillation does leave calcium behind.


#59

M

Markdd60

Hammermechanicman said:
I just love this thread!
All of the internet scientists 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm not a qualified internet scientist but i did stay a a holiday inn express once.
🤭
Click to expand...
These are the best.... rates right up there with dino oil vs synthetics threads. I've only stayed at the "We'll leave the lights on for you" motel. 😆


#60

S

Skippydiesel

Peva,
Basic physics can not be avoided - the fuel tank must be subject to pressure equalisation, as the fuel level drops/atmospheric/diurnal changes occur - otherwise it will either collapse or attempt to expand (subject to construction limitations).
Atmospheric air and with it water vapour is being allowed to enter the system you have illustrated.
Further the above system is about reducing fuel vapours entering the atmosphere (exiting the tank) not about air entering the fuel tank, to replace the lost volume due to consumption and equalise internal pressure due to atmospheric and or temperature changes.


#61

P

Peva

Skippydiesel said:
Peva,
Basic physics can not be avoided - the fuel tank must be subject to pressure equalisation, as the fuel level drops/atmospheric/diurnal changes occur - otherwise it will either collapse or attempt to expand (subject to construction limitations).
Atmospheric air and with it water vapour is being allowed to enter the system you have illustrated.
Further the above system is about reducing fuel vapours entering the atmosphere (exiting the tank) not about air entering the fuel tank, to replace the lost volume due to consumption and equalise internal pressure due to atmospheric and or temperature changes.
Click to expand...
We're probably not going to agree.

I addressed the differences and quoted the factory manual explicitly stating that the system is closed off to the atmosphere with engine off by the n.c. (closed when de-energized, i.e., ignition off) valves.

With some further reading, I see that the diurnal temperature changes are - to some degree - accommodated by the volume of the canister allowing some pressure (or vacuum) buildup from vapor expansion/contraction without tank damage. I don't know how they handle larger pressure changes due to opposite-direction temperature extremes - they don't address that. The idea is that it *reduces* the exchange but within reason in case of unusual conditions. They are constantly adding requirements to evap. systems to squeeze every bit of planet-saving goodness out of our wallets. 🤪 There may be two-way over-/under-pressure relief valves (lightly spring loaded bi-directional check valves or similar) to maintain some degree of cost and design practicality while accomplishing the major part of the goals.

The fuel level dropping with usage only means filling the tank space once with air with each tank full - not the same volume change multiple times through the twice daily temperature fluctuations if the car sits *unused* for several months. Compare that to an old school fuel system with nothing but a tank and an open hole in the gas cap where volatiles evaporate off and air gets freely pulled in with each temperature cycle allowing the fuel to degrade over a period of months with multiple air exchanges on the same tank of fuel. It was the same with cars with vented gas caps before evap. systems were required.

It is known that fuel will not go stale in a modern car system in anywhere near the relatively short time period that it will in lawn mowers unless the lawnmower has an evap. system similar to a modern car.


#62

P

Peva

Skippydiesel said:
Peva,
Basic physics can not be avoided - the fuel tank must be subject to pressure equalisation, as the fuel level drops/atmospheric/diurnal changes occur - otherwise it will either collapse or attempt to expand (subject to construction limitations).
Atmospheric air and with it water vapour is being allowed to enter the system you have illustrated.
Further the above system is about reducing fuel vapours entering the atmosphere (exiting the tank) not about air entering the fuel tank, to replace the lost volume due to consumption and equalise internal pressure due to atmospheric and or temperature changes.
Click to expand...
Taking one more pass at this - I think where we're talking past each other is that you think there has to be a valve or breather left open to allow for fuel usage emptying the tank and the diurnal temperature changes, while I see in the factory service manual that the valves are in fact closed with ignition off, but I see (read about) the canister adding volume to reduce the pressure changes due to temperature changes, and I suspect that there may be low pressure relief devices to handle extreme temperature changes - which would have a very different effect than a zero-restriction hole in the system, or vented fuel cap, or a normally open valve to atmosphere.


EDIT: I'm reading discussions that say that some cars have vented gas caps - and that in the context of evaporative emissions, a "vented" cap doesn't mean a cap with a hole in it, but the cap has a simple bi-directional overpressure valve built in that allows *some* pressure buildup *BUT*, beyond some amount of pressure, allows vapor/air to squeak by to reduce the in-tank to ambient-air pressure differential. Other cars have a sealed (non-vented) cap but have to have a similar over-pressure relief device built into the canister plumbing instead

So - we were both right. It allows partial pressure equalization, but not total free flow like a plain old hole would do. It's a compromise.

So the car whose FSM I was quoting from would have to have the vented gas cap since the evap. system valves do close with ignition off with no mention of the pressure relief device. I searched for some mention of gas cap being vented or not, but found none. I'm convinced it is vented (not with a simple hole, but with a simple pressure relief device built in).


#63

S

Skippydiesel

Peva said:
We're probably not going to agree.

I addressed the differences and quoted the factory manual explicitly stating that the system is closed off to the atmosphere with engine off by the n.c. (closed when de-energized, i.e., ignition off) valves.

With some further reading, I see that the diurnal temperature changes are - to some degree - accommodated by the volume of the canister allowing some pressure (or vacuum) buildup from vapor expansion/contraction without tank damage. I don't know how they handle larger pressure changes due to opposite-direction temperature extremes - they don't address that. The idea is that it *reduces* the exchange but within reason in case of unusual conditions. They are constantly adding requirements to evap. systems to squeeze every bit of planet-saving goodness out of our wallets. 🤪 There may be two-way over-/under-pressure relief valves (lightly spring loaded bi-directional check valves or similar) to maintain some degree of cost and design practicality while accomplishing the major part of the goals.

The fuel level dropping with usage only means filling the tank space once with air with each tank full - not the same volume change multiple times through the twice daily temperature fluctuations if the car sits *unused* for several months. Compare that to an old school fuel system with nothing but a tank and an open hole in the gas cap where volatiles evaporate off and air gets freely pulled in with each temperature cycle allowing the fuel to degrade over a period of months with multiple air exchanges on the same tank of fuel. It was the same with cars with vented gas caps before evap. systems were required.

It is known that fuel will not go stale in a modern car system in anywhere near the relatively short time period that it will in lawn mowers unless the lawnmower has an evap. system similar to a modern car.
Click to expand...
Oaky - all sound a bit hopeful/jingoistic to me. I don't disagree. I get the principal just not the practicalities. Question effectiveness to effectiveness -especially if following practise not observed.

The fuel companies advice to me, regarding fuel going off/stail, is fill to 75 % or better (minimise air gap). This will slow evaporation & loss of volatile components. It will also reduce the amount of atmospheric air/cycling and terror hugely reduce chances of condensation.

Also, I don't think you can compare a car volume of fuel with what might be in a mower - the larger the starting volume, over a given time - the less effect volatile loss will impact on fuel quality/performance.


#64

P

Peva

Skippydiesel said:
Oaky - all sound a bit hopeful/jingoistic to me. I don't disagree. I get the principal just not the practicalities. Question effectiveness to effectiveness -especially if following practise not observed.

The fuel companies advice to me, regarding fuel going off/stail, is fill to 75 % or better (minimise air gap). This will slow evaporation & loss of volatile components. It will also reduce the amount of atmospheric air/cycling and terror hugely reduce chances of condensation.

Also, I don't think you can compare a car volume of fuel with what might be in a mower - the larger the starting volume, over a given time - the less effect volatile loss will impact on fuel quality/performance.
Click to expand...
Makes sense about keeping higher levels of fuel to keep *ratio* of volume of fuel to volume of open space (air + other vapors) in the tank relatively high.

On what you said about effects being different with fuel volume of car vs. less fuel volume with a lawnmower, I would say it's not volume of fuel per-se (say, 17 gallon capacity with actual average actual 13 gallons for car vs. 1.7 gallon capacity with actual average 1.3 gallons for a lawnmower, or scale the tank sizes for whatever car and lawnmower you want to compare) but the *ratio* of volume of fuel to volume of open (air + vapor) space in the tank, so in that sense the effects should be similar - but that of course would only be true if *assuming* both car and lawnmower have similar degree of "sealing", which, for this discussion we've been assuming *not* similar in that regard (i.e., an EPA compliant evaporative emissions system on the car, but a simple fuel tank plus gas cap with a simple unrestricted/free-flowing/breathing vent hole on the lawnmower).

I would argue that we've both done our best at honest discussion. I take exception to your use of the word "hopeful" as it implies that I'm trying to force the conclusion that I want, reality be damned. With the help of your experience and knowledge, I actually searched for and found explanations for the realities and adjusted my understanding accordingly - and I now understand the whole subject better than I did. Dare I say that the same could be said of you?

I don't understand your use of the word "jingoistic" with my understanding of the meaning (dictionary definition) of the word.


#65

H

heyinway

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
Regular gas and Stabil Marine in your container when you buy All the time, everytime. Never add stabilizer to the tank separately...it is highly concentrated. 1/2 ounce to 5 gallons.


#66

S

Skippydiesel

Peva,
Not you being "hopeful/jingoistic" - the promoters of the system.

I thought again on comparing a full fuel tank of car v mower - its likly to be the ratio of surface area to volume, available for evaporation, rather than just volume. The modern car having the addition of some control over gas movement in/out being the winner.


#67

P

Peva

Skippydiesel said:
Peva,
Not you being "hopeful/jingoistic" - the promoters of the system.

I thought again on comparing a full fuel tank of car v mower - its likly to be the ratio of surface area to volume, available for evaporation, rather than just volume. The modern car having the addition of some control over gas movement in/out being the winner.
Click to expand...
Ahh! I feel better about the hopeful/jingoistic comment. 😬

Volume to surface area - yes, Good point. They need to make the fuel tanks long thin tubes sticking up through the roof - like a big straw. 🤣 As with most things, everything's a compromise of competing goals/requirements/laws of physics.

Good talk! 👍


#68

S

Skippydiesel

Agreed! - I look forward to our next joust with great anticipation.


#69

R

rhkraft

Most modern mowers recommend 10% alcohol regular fuel. True alcohol attracts water, and if you leave your equipment out in the weather and it rains, water will get in the fuel tank. The alcohol will absorb some water just like the fuel dryer you used to put in your gas tank in the car to absorb any water to prevent gas line freeze-up. Many of you may be too young to remember those days. Gasohol 10% eliminates the need for the gasoline dryer that we used to put in our cars. You can test for 10% alcohol by getting a small bottle and marking it at 10%, 20%, full is 100%. Put water in the bottle to the 10% line, then fill with gasoline. Cap the bottle and shake vigorously for a minute. Let the bottle set for 10 minutes. If the fuel is 10% gasohol all the alcohol will be absorbed by the water and the water line will read 20%. If the gasoline is alcohol free regular, the water line will still be at 10%. Note that you have shake vigorously. Fuel stored inside, not out in the weather, absorbs almost no water. You screw the cap on your gas can, don't you? If the gas did absorb water, you could see the separated water in the bottom of your plastic gas can. I have stored 10% gasohol for months without problem. I do use Stabil in my fuel to protect the carburetors from water deposited scale in the float bowl. Water can and does get into the gas tank if the mower is left outside.


#70

S

Skippydiesel

What has inside/outside got to do with atmospheric water vapour entering an unsealed fuel tank/container - as a general rule the only common way to reduce water vapour (humidity) in a room/shed is by using an air conditioner.


#71

R

Ranchito

Peva said:
I'll add one piece of info. to the discussion:

A few years ago, I remarked on an automotive forum that it puzzled me that consumer lawnmower engines definitely have a lot of problems with old 10% ethanol fuel, but cars did not.

A guy who frequented that forum and that worked on the technical side of the trucking industry solved the mystery. He said that the difference was that fuel systems of automobiles are required to be sealed, whereas the fuel systems of lawnmowers and most other small-engine devices were not sealed - i.e, were freely vented to atmosphere. Not only does that passively expose the fuel to air and moisture, but as ambient temperatures rose and fell routinely through night-time/day-time cycles, the gas tank "breathed" fresh air and moisture in and out as the air expanded and contracted with the daily temperature fluctuations - bringing a fresh batch of moisture into the tank every day to react with the ethanol in the fuel. Car fuel systems being sealed, they don't get a new batch of air and moisture constantly being pushed in and out of the tank.

That goes right along with what some of you said about moisture and ethanol interaction. But for me, it explained in particular why lawnmowers and other smaller engine devices don't tolerate aged ethanol fuel, whereas old ethanol fuel doesn't seem to bother running/starting quality of cars.
Click to expand...
Not completely true. As one who works in the auto repair business, I have yet to see a vapor recovery system (EVAP) that seals the fuel system when the vehicle is not running. If this were true, the fuel tank, usually plastic, would expand like a balloon on a hot day and collapse on a cool night. The vent valve prevents this. The vent closes when running and a purge valve opens intermittently to vent vapors into the engine to be burned.


#72

X

xj61975

I run E10 in my four stroke machines throughout the summer season, but for the final cut, I drain the e10 and switch over to ethanol free. It is important to get all the E10 out of the system before winter storage. My final act is to switch off the fuel shutoff valve, restart, and let the mower run out of fuel. This leaves a small amount of fuel in the carburetor bowl but no worries if it is ethanol free. I agree with Tbone0106 in that the stabilizers don't address the water issues with E10. Before ethanol free was readily available, I ran everything dry on a small amount of True Fuel or equivalent. Especially important for the two strokes. This method has worked well for me since the advent of "gasahol". Never a problem starting or running in the spring.


#73

S

saltair

I use non-ethanol in all small engines. I also add seafoam to keep moisture out and keep engines clean.


#74

L

lkomnino

Just add some water to a jerry can of it, shake and let settle. Ethanol shall mix with water and settle to bottom. Do it on bulk, or by the gallon.
Leo from across the pond ( Inger-land)


#75

M

mcspeed

Interesting discussions here. I subscribe to the non-ethanol fuel in all my small engines. I have had 2-stroke line trimmer fuel intake hose dissolve in under 5 years using ethanol fuel. However I have a chain saw I bought new over 40 years ago that never saw ethanol free fuel for its first 39 years of life. No additives, never drain the fuel, may sit 2-3 years unused. I’m guessing the 2-stroke oil plays a role in preserving the fuel. Starts and runs well……go figure.


#76

K

kinard

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
I use ethanol free gas in my two stroke engines (weed eaters, chain saws, hedge trimmers), but not in my four stroke engines (mowers) and makita blower. This is based on what my small engine repair guy recommended. I got tired of rebuilding carbs that gummed up using ethanol gas.


#77

eldowdy

eldowdy

I've been using 10% ethanol fuel in my 27HP Briggs for 13 years. Nery a problem.


#78

S

schreib69

TonyPrin said:
As long as you're mindful to not store gasoline over 2 months there is no reason to use ethanol-free gasoline. Fresh or reasonably fresh gasoline won't damage a small engine. Check your manual and I think you'll see B&S agrees with me.
Click to expand...
Good suggestion to the OP'ers question; for me, I will USE this guidance from now on with caveats:
-- after September when mixing 2 cycle gas, remember to put in stabilizer
-- after September only refill ONE of the gas cans(not both) to force me to use it up faster!
The whole problem centers around one's memory and mine SUCKS.
I have gone to buying paper tags with wires attached and noting at the end of each year when I drained the tank for winter and install stabilized gas. This is at least some help!


#79

S

schreib69

eldowdy said:
I've been using 10% ethanol fuel in my 27HP Briggs for 13 years. Nery a problem.
Click to expand...
Good to know.
We need more input like this.
Most folks have input that is opinions and info that confuses one variable with another-- They use BOTH Fuel stabilizer AND non-ethanol grade fuel.

Do you use stabilizer after things turn cold and you expect to have gas sitting around longer than a couple of months?


#80

P

Peva

Ranchito said:
Not completely true. As one who works in the auto repair business, I have yet to see a vapor recovery system (EVAP) that seals the fuel system when the vehicle is not running. If this were true, the fuel tank, usually plastic, would expand like a balloon on a hot day and collapse on a cool night. The vent valve prevents this. The vent closes when running and a purge valve opens intermittently to vent vapors into the engine to be burned.
Click to expand...
You didn't read everything posted - that was already addressed. I quoted the FSM for two of a certain car I owned in the past - I actually posted (attached) photos of those statements in the FSM. It explicitly stated that the valves open to ambient air close with engine/ignition off. In addition, some systems have a spring-loaded closed valve (similar to a check valve) that closes the system off below a certain pressure or vacuum but will overcome the spring pressure above a certain amount to prevent the problems you mention. So it prevents free flow of air like a normally-open valve or simple breather hole would. Depending on the design, that spring-loaded valve was in the purge valve or its plumbing, or built into the gas cap. The EPA requirements changed over the years to try to reduce or eliminate additional little bits of leakage, so system designs evolved in various ways to comply.


#81

tgzzzz

tgzzzz

7394 said:
Seafoam been around since 1942 i believe..
Click to expand...
Me too! Coincidence?


#82

F

Fourester

I have a 10 year old Hustler Raptor that gets regular use April thru mid-December. It has only seen 89 or 93 octane pure gas, even though it says it can take 10% ethanol. Yes, easily $1 more per gallon, but I only use about 6 gallons a month, so it is worth it. I use stabilizer in the winter. I also use non-ethanol in my 6 year old generator that only gets cranked and run for 10 minutes every month. I use stabilizer in there year around and drain and refill the fuel every year. I also use it in my 7 year old Stihl weed eater. Get your non-ethanol at a marina or near a boat ramp. Boaters use it, so it is probably fresher. We also have alot of old people here, hence many pro and side hustle lawn care companies that use it.


#83

F

Fourester

Rifraph48 said:
"Putting corn likker into our gas tanks is truly one of the dumbest things our national government has ever come up with." Consider that it might not be dumb. It might be corruption. What if it is a way to launder taxpayer money? Cargill likes the program so much they give a lot of taxpayer sourced money to both parties in DC. Also, I measured the ethanol content (it is 0-10%) in the gasoline (it is not hard to do) for my car for a while and determined that it would reduce my mpg by up to 20% (My Corolla would drop from 40 mpg to 32 mpg hwy). If I know that, the EPA knows that.
Click to expand...
If you think that is bad, try the 88 stuff. I tried one tank in my F-150 on a road trip. Mileage dropped from 24 to about 17 on the HWY. I did a cost comparison analysis. Definitely not worth using the 88, plus none of the 8 stations (6 locally owned) in our county carry it.


#84

J

joea99

TC25Dave said:
Life is short. You should absolutely use non-ethanol in your small engines and avoid all the maintenance problems that the U.S. government has foisted upon you by insisting that alcohol be added to gasoline. They are not your friend, and they are not here to help you!
Click to expand...
Not to turn this into a "political" argument, but you might want to take a look at this, and other sources that explain how ethanol became "mandated".

The "US Government" did not come up with the idea on it's own, it was hand fed to Lawmakers along with "too much money" by those with an interest in finding a use for their "waste product". Most write ups ignore the efforts of non Government entities to promote ethanol in gasoline.

An Ethanol Timeline: How We Got Here

Since 1826, ethanol has been of interest to entrepreneurs and agriculturists as a possible alternate fuel.
clf.jhsph.edu clf.jhsph.edu


#85

A

Air4Dave

Rifraph48 said:
I only use ethanol free gasoline for all of my small engines. It cost more per gallon but I think (I do not have hard data) that the lifecycle cost for the use of the equipment is less. Further, the engines always start an run good even if that have been sitting for a few months. Ethanol can damage a two cycle engine as the ethanol can separate out (phase separation) and you will seriously damage the engine. On the four cycle engines, I have replaced carburetors after years of use of ethanol gasoline but the engines run for years with no issues if I only use ethanol free gasoline. I also treat all of my small engine ethanol free gasoline with Schaeffer Oil Neutra™ Fuel Stabilizer (https://www.schaefferoil.com/neutra.html). There may be other additives from Schaeffer's or others that work, too.

Bottom line: I only use ethanol free gasoline treated with Schaeffer's Neutra Fuel Stabilizer and I have nearly zero engine fuel related issues on multiple engine types and brands. I go through a lot of gasoline in the summer on the ranch. My experience with this is over many years.
Click to expand...
Being a former Chevron (Standard Oil of Ca, back in the day) employee for 27 years, I fully agree with Rifraph48. I use 91 octane, ethanol free for ALL my small engines - from my riding mower to my 1942 Power Trim edger! For example, my edger I hadn't started for 3 years!...yes! The other day I needed it for a neighbor and went out to dust it off and it fired right up! I use no additives, other than a fuel stabilizer, and all my equipment fires right up, run smoothly, and I have full power.
So, in answer to Tbone above, while using regular gasoline as some suggest, I feel the extra money spent - what...$5 on 5 gallons of fuel that will last you through how many fillups on your equipment - is well worth the fact that my engines run smoother, and have, IMO, a longer shelf life than chancing on engine failure sooner than later. The extra money for premium fuel is also because the additive package in premium fuel is about 10x more than regular fuels - even midgrade - and that equates to better longevity of the rings, carb seals and carbonization.


#86

O

Old Gweilo

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
For the past decade I've been a complete devotee to 0E fuels, using it in everything I own that burns gas. Seasonal equipment gets stored with full tanks and a few oz of Sea Foam and for 10 years none of it has resisted starting right up, even in one case, after sitting nearly 2 years. In my Province all fuel with a 93 octane rating is now 0E so its easy to come by. I know opinions will vary with regard to this topic but put me down for 0E fuel all day long. "We do have really cold winters and condensate + Ethanol = frozen fuel lines; corroded tanks too" - so there's that and I doubt this would be a concern for you.


#87

G

g-man57

Rifraph48 said:
Forgive my typos/spelling. They always show up AFTER posting regardless of my proofreading!
Click to expand...

Your browser should have a spell checker. Find out how to activate it. Or use something like tinySpell - that's what I use. Everything I type, regardless of where, is checked. Misspelled words appear in red. Click on the red word and the correct spelling appears for you to select.


#88

D

dadoftim

It is never a problem ....till it is, then it's a big repair bill. Put those pennies saved away for the day will come when your wallet will open and dollars will come pouring out. Just say'n


#89

rhiebert

rhiebert

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
Ethanol in gasoline will create water in the fuel which means there's potential for premature wear among other issues. My suggestion is to use a quality gasoline additive. In my case I use about an ounce per ten gallons every second or third tank-full.


#90

P

pastor99

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
I cringe every time I pay the extra. I smile every time my equipment starts without fail, even when it's been sitting awhile.


#91

J

jcworks

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
TLoyd, I'm in north central Alabama. I have no disagreements with the supporters of ethanol-free. However, I've just been using the regular 87 octane for years with no problem. But, with small stuff like chain saws, weed eaters, etc I just pour back the excess gas into the gas can when I'm finished and run the engine till it runs out of fuel. Those items are not regularly used - especially the chain saw. As for my riding mower I have not done that. Its a 23hp Kawasaki, and I just go out every couple of months in the winter and crank it up and run it a while. Its 11 years old and I've never had an issue with it because of ethanol. Small engine mechanics will tell you otherwise because of their experience working on engines. That's understandable, you can't tell what other people with problems have done. Summary: I run the small engines carburetor dry when they sit up for months and not let the gasoline with ethanol sit there in the carb.


#92

J

jcworks

Hammermechanicman said:
The great ethanol vs non-ethanol debate rages on!!!!

Just like oil, oil filters, spark plugs use what gas makes you happy. I have about 30 things with gas engines that all run regular pump gas and i have stored regular gas in cans for over a year. Never had an issue. I guess i am just luckier than most.
Click to expand...
Though many mechanics will tout their experiences, I haven't had any bad experience with ethanol in my ZTR, chain saw , or weedeater. But I drain the saw and weeder after use due to the lack of use of those.


#93

G

GrumpyCat

You should gladly pay $10/gallon extra for ethanol-free. Plus use every single stabilizing product, "ethanol neutralizer", etc, liberally! Nothing is too good for your little engine!

Or, you could just use common sense and only keep fresh 87 AKI E10 from a high volume gas stations on hand a month or so before using.

Ethanol doesn't hurt modern engines. However ethanol carries water in solution in the gasoline and this water in contact with carburetor and fuel injection parts does the damage. No additive "eliminates" ethanol, they only increase the ability to carry water in solution, to "get rid of the water" by carrying it through the engine.


#94

B

brucelud

Absolutely! You can pay the extra dollar a gallon for several years and still be ahead of the price for a gummed up carburetor, buying stabil, transporting your mower to a shop and waiting for it to be fixed, and on and on. With non-ethanol gas, you can keep it and not have to worry about it.


#95

Smithsonite

Smithsonite

Over 14 years of repairing small engines, I've found you can get away with using pump gas (E10) if you use the equipment often. If it sits for months, that's when problems start. I've also found draining a diaphragm carburetor of fuel ends up causing more issues than it helps. You're actually better off leaving even E10 in a diaphragm carb. If it has a float bowl, you absolutely MUST drain it.

Since I started running E0 in all my handheld and standby 4-stroke equipment up here in MA (where you can't even pump E0 outside of an airfield or oceanside marina), I haven't had any issues since.


#96

O

Old Gweilo

GrumpyCat said:
You should gladly pay $10/gallon extra for ethanol-free. Plus use every single stabilizing product, "ethanol neutralizer", etc, liberally! Nothing is too good for your little engine!

Or, you could just use common sense and only keep fresh 87 AKI E10 from a high volume gas stations on hand a month or so before using.

Ethanol doesn't hurt modern engines. However ethanol carries water in solution in the gasoline and this water in contact with carburetor and fuel injection parts does the damage. No additive "eliminates" ethanol, they only increase the ability to carry water in solution, to "get rid of the water" by carrying it through the engine.
Click to expand...
This is my understanding too. The grain alcohol in E10 isn't directly the problem. It is the affinity between grain alcohol and water which is the problem as it causes the water to separate out of the E10 fuel and combine with the grain alcohol in a distinct layer at the bottom of the tank. The alcohol / water layer is the problem. Somewhat oddly it is another type of alcohol, (isopropyl alcohol), which is a solution to the separation problem. Being a hydrocarbon derivative, isopropyl alcohol binds with both the water and the gas, keeping everything in solution till it can be burned off.

Clearly then, water is the main problem so if you can ensure no water, (generally by way of condensation), gets into the fuel there should be no issues. If water does enter the fuel then E10 exacerbates the problems it causes. As others have already pointed out, a buck a gallon is peanuts to pay in order to avoid the separation issue. Stabilizers do work. Thats just science. You can't avoid water or E10 completely as traces of both will be found in whatever pump fuel you buy. By avoiding E10 and using a stabilizer on occasion you improve your odds against fuel related problems. If you do neither and still have no problems you're simply beating the odds. Whatever works.


#97

M

marinusdees

ran440 said:
Not sure anyone mentioned damage to soft parts. Your engines may run on ethanol laced fuels, but as long as you are running it it is doing damage to your fuel lines, o-rings, seals and diaphragms. All soft parts. Ever wonder why your fuel lines on your line trimmer can snap like a stick? Or a diaphragm that has no flex at all? For many years now I have used nothing but rec-fuel and Seafoam and recommend the same to all my customers.
Click to expand...


#98

Smithsonite

Smithsonite

If you are near or in a state that sells E0 at the pump, that's the way to go. It's high $4 a gallon around here in NY, NH, VT, and ME.


#99

O

Old Gweilo

Lots of Opinion Forums and websites dump on SeaFoam as an outboard motor product but its worked for me in everything and as its "mainly" nothing but "pale oil", an upper cylinder lubricant, and isopropyl alcohol, you don't need to be a mad scientist to get the mix ratios correct. Anything between a couple of oz to 5-6 oz per 5 gal can works fine. I personally only go to 5-6 oz / 5 gal can for winter storage. Throughout the season a couple of oz now and then to deal with the trace E10 I pick up at the pumps seems to keep me out of trouble. Nothing wrong with just playing the odds either if that works for you. Whatever works.


#100

R

RevB

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
No.


#101

R

RevB

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...

Assessment of the Effectiveness of Three Aftermarket Gasoline Fuel Stabilizers in Preventing Gum Formation and Loss of Oxidation Stability

Fuel stabilizers have long been marketed to consumers to prevent oxidation and gum formation. In the past, gasoline storage for long periods of time was commonly limited to off-road equipment that was used infrequently. Cars and trucks that were driven regularly consumed the fuel in their tanks rapi
www.sae.org www.sae.org

Again, no to "stabilizers" unless you insist on letting the fuel sit for over 12 months....unlikely in most all cases.


#102

R

RevB

Smithsonite said:
If you are near or in a state that sells E0 at the pump, that's the way to go. It's high $4 a gallon around here in NY, NH, VT, and ME.
Click to expand...
Totally unnecessary unless you are running equipment more than 40+ years old whose rubber components have not been changed to Buna N or hoses made in the stone age. And every new piece of gas powered vehicle has been changed over since at least 1979, 3 years after ethanol was re-introduced (used to be run in the 30s and 40s....WW2 stuff) into the market in 1976 and problems with rubber components was uncovered. Again.


#103

R

RevB

hdsport said:
Yes, this has been a very controversial topic over the years.
There are two aspects to this issue: personal / professional experience and chemistry.
Simply put, experience has demonstrated that ethanol gas does damage small engine components.
Next, the corrosive capacity of ethanol in the small engine system is well documented.
I'm not going to elaborate on these topics....you all have read and sometimes have experienced the negative effects of ethanol gas.

Several years ago I switched to non-ethanol gas in all of my small engines.
NO problems since...all start easily, even after sitting over the winter.
I have documented one thig. I used to have to stop mowing to add more ethanol gas to my push mower before I finished cutting my lawn.
Switched to non-ethanol and now I cut my complete lawn and still have gas left over in the tank.

No need to discuss this further. We all know the political and economical concerns that drive this.

I will continue to pay a little more to use non-ethanol gas for all of my 2 and 4 cycle needs.
In the 'long run', it is really more economical. The few $'s that I save at the pump doesn't compare the the problems that result and the personal time involved.

Your engine, your time, your money. Your Call.
Click to expand...
...and your responsibility to provide those SAE links to prove your contention. Not taking info or opinion from Billy Bob's gasoline stories.


#104

R

RevB

rhiebert said:
Gas with ethanol will create water so my suggestion would be to use a fuel additive and quality synthetic engine oil.
Click to expand...
"Create" ....science matters and this isn't it.


#105

R

RevB

JD14SB said:
I find that the 2-cycle small engines such as those on a String Trimmer, Leaf Blower, Mini Mantis Tiller, Chainsaw, and Edgers do need Ethanol-free Gasoline. If regular gasoline is used, the metering diaphragm and fuel pump diaphragm in the Carburetor will lose their flexibility. Corrosion can also result which requires a new Carburetor to fix. Many larger engines do OK on regular gasoline as long as there isn't a bunch of rubber parts in the Carburetor and. My Honda HR-215 Mower made from the late 80's to early 90's still has the original Carburetor. The regular gasoline absorbs water (ethanol). When it cannot absorb any more, than you have water sitting in the gas tank and Carburetor. This will corrode the Carburetors. So when the piece of equipment is parked for the season, run it out of gasoline and it will be fine. I like it when People use regular gasoline and don't drain it or leave it in a 2-cycle Engine since I repair small engines. I see dollar signs.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. Every piece of equipment 4)+ years old has already been converted to bunaN or other ethanol proof materials.
Prove your "corrosion" story with links to SAE reports.


#106

C

Craiger

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
Being a chemist I know a bit about EtOH (chemist's term for ethanol) in gas. Here's a quick summary.
1) It's added to regular gas mainly to keep the corn farmers happy and profitable. not to mention Cargill etc. Great example of how powerful a lobbyist can be.
2) This is simple chemistry. A gallon of EtOH has less energy than a gallon of gas, therefore your fuel economy will suffer. Some older fuel systems have components which are damaged by EtOH mainly because of the water it attracts.
3) As for small engines, I am in an area where EtOH free gas is a lot more expensive by a dollar or more extra so I use gas with 10% EtOH in my small engines. It runs fine when relatively fresh.
4) I agree with others who post that you'll be OK if you don't let the EtOH fuel sit in your engine for too long. Never over a few months. If you can afford it, get the EtOH free stuff, it's your money and it can't hurt anything. I'd use it if it wasn't so expensive here. Price gouging?
5) Fuel stabilizer is helpful but won't prevent the gas from absorbing moisture from the atmosphere. Beware if you live in a humid area. Don't buy too much gas at one time. Buy from a busy station.
6) To avoid off season storage problems I always run my engines ouf of fuel before storing. This has worked for me for over 50 years.
Happy mowing, snowblowing etc.


#107

R

RickBob

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethanol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and !time!
Click to expand...
I had a Quickie saw that I was always having the carburetor worked on. 12 years ago I started using Ethanol Shield. I have not had any fuel related problems since. I don't drain the fuel in the winter either.


#108

B

Boomer49

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...


#109

B

Boomer49

TLloyd said:
Is it really worth the extra price (Over a dollar a gallon extra) to get ethanol free fuel for mowers? I have a 18 hp Briggs & Stratton engine engine on my riding mower, I have a small small push mower and I have a 2-cycle weedeater. I’m in south Alabama, 65 miles from the coast. The past several years, I’ve cranked up the weedeater during the off growing season just to polish up what I may not have weed-eated earlier – just to run it for a little bit. I may or may not do that for the push mower. The riding mower is used to drag limbs to a burn pile so it gets cranked every so often in the ‘cold’ season. We’re not long out of growing season and we don’t have really cold winters.
I’m just wondering if there’s something I can do different or is there just no reason for the non-ethynol fuel at my location.
I appreciate your thoughts and time!
Click to expand...
This is from Briggs & Stratton "

What is the best small engine or lawn mower gas?​

Fuel for your lawn mower or outdoor power equipment must meet these requirements:
  • Clean and fresh - fuel can begin to deteriorate in as little as 30 days
  • A minimum of 87 octane/87 Anti-Knock Index (AKI) / 91 Research Octane Number (RON); If operating at high altitude, see below
  • Gasoline with up to 10% ethanol (gasohol) or up to 15% methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE), is acceptable. Some fuel stations are now selling gasoline with up to 15% ethanol. This E15 product is not recommended or approved for use in small engines.
  • A canned fuel product can also be used. This fuel combines ethanol-free unleaded gasoline with a fuel stabilizer to prolong the life of the fuel.
  • Fuel Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) rating, is equally as important as the octane rating. Gasoline refineries raise and lowers fuel RVP ratings (gasoline's volatility) seasonally to account for the differences in temperature. Note: low RVP fuel will cause hard or no start conditions in cold weather conditions.
  • Summer Fuel = low RVP rating
  • Winter Fuel = high RVP rating
  • ** This rating varies from state to state also **
Note: LOOK BEFORE YOU PUMP! Do not use unapproved gasoline, such as E15 and E85. Do not mix oil in gasoline or modify the engine to run on alternate fuels. Use of unapproved fuels will damage the engine components, which will not be covered under warranty.


#110

rivercityman

rivercityman

From a Web search:
Based on the search results, here's a comprehensive answer regarding ethanol-free gasoline versus regular gasoline for lawnmower engines:

Benefits of Ethanol-Free Gasoline​

Ethanol-free gasoline is generally considered better for lawnmower engines and other small engine equipment for several reasons:

  1. Reduced corrosion: Ethanol can be corrosive to metal parts, including carburetors, which can lead to engine damage over time[1][2].
  2. Better stability: Ethanol-free gas has a longer shelf life and is less likely to degrade when stored for extended periods[1].
  3. Improved performance: Many users report easier starting, more consistent running, and fewer carburetor issues when using ethanol-free gas[3].
  4. Less moisture absorption: Ethanol attracts water, which can lead to engine problems. Ethanol-free gas is less likely to absorb moisture from the air[2].

Drawbacks of Ethanol-Blended Gasoline (E10)​

Regular gasoline, which typically contains 10% ethanol (E10), can cause several issues in small engines:

  1. Component degradation: Ethanol can degrade plastic and rubber components in the engine[2].
  2. Higher operating temperatures: E10 can cause engines to run hotter, potentially leading to increased wear[2].
  3. Carburetor problems: Ethanol can lead to gumming and clogging of carburetors, especially when equipment is stored for long periods[3].

Conflicting Information​

It's worth noting that there is some conflicting information regarding the use of ethanol-blended fuels in small engines:

  1. Manufacturer recommendations: Many small engine manufacturers have designed their products to run on E10 fuel[5].
  2. Water absorption: While some sources claim ethanol increases water-related issues, others argue that E10 can actually help prevent free water formation in the fuel system[5].
  3. Fuel shelf life: Some sources suggest that E10 has a minimum shelf life of six months, which may be sufficient for many users[5].

Conclusion​

While there are arguments on both sides, the majority of evidence suggests that ethanol-free gasoline is preferable for lawnmower engines and other small engine equipment. However, if ethanol-free gas is not readily available or is significantly more expensive, using E10 with proper maintenance and storage practices can still be acceptable[3][4].

Recommendations​

  1. If available and affordable, use ethanol-free gasoline in your lawnmower.
  2. If using E10, consider adding a fuel stabilizer, especially if the equipment will be stored for extended periods[3].
  3. Regardless of fuel type, follow proper storage and maintenance procedures, such as running the engine dry or filling the tank completely before long-term storage[5].
  4. Consult your lawnmower's manual for specific fuel recommendations from the manufacturer.
By following these guidelines, you can help ensure the longevity and performance of your lawnmower engine, regardless of the fuel type you choose.

Citations:
[1] https://www.bellperformance.com/blo...n-your-lawn-mower-or-not-that-is-the-question
[2] https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm
[3]
https://www.reddit.com/r/lawnmowers/comments/16bua5i
[4] https://www.lawnsite.com/threads/is-ethanol-free-gas-worth-it.479827/
[5] https://www.mncorn.org/2022/03/01/setting-the-record-on-using-ethanol-in-small-engines/


#111

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

My gas is better than your gas

LOL


#112

O

Old Gweilo

rivercityman said:
From a Web search:
Based on the search results, here's a comprehensive answer regarding ethanol-free gasoline versus regular gasoline for lawnmower engines:

Benefits of Ethanol-Free Gasoline​

Ethanol-free gasoline is generally considered better for lawnmower engines and other small engine equipment for several reasons:

  1. Reduced corrosion: Ethanol can be corrosive to metal parts, including carburetors, which can lead to engine damage over time[1][2].
  2. Better stability: Ethanol-free gas has a longer shelf life and is less likely to degrade when stored for extended periods[1].
  3. Improved performance: Many users report easier starting, more consistent running, and fewer carburetor issues when using ethanol-free gas[3].
  4. Less moisture absorption: Ethanol attracts water, which can lead to engine problems. Ethanol-free gas is less likely to absorb moisture from the air[2].

Drawbacks of Ethanol-Blended Gasoline (E10)​

Regular gasoline, which typically contains 10% ethanol (E10), can cause several issues in small engines:

  1. Component degradation: Ethanol can degrade plastic and rubber components in the engine[2].
  2. Higher operating temperatures: E10 can cause engines to run hotter, potentially leading to increased wear[2].
  3. Carburetor problems: Ethanol can lead to gumming and clogging of carburetors, especially when equipment is stored for long periods[3].

Conflicting Information​

It's worth noting that there is some conflicting information regarding the use of ethanol-blended fuels in small engines:

  1. Manufacturer recommendations: Many small engine manufacturers have designed their products to run on E10 fuel[5].
  2. Water absorption: While some sources claim ethanol increases water-related issues, others argue that E10 can actually help prevent free water formation in the fuel system[5].
  3. Fuel shelf life: Some sources suggest that E10 has a minimum shelf life of six months, which may be sufficient for many users[5].

Conclusion​

While there are arguments on both sides, the majority of evidence suggests that ethanol-free gasoline is preferable for lawnmower engines and other small engine equipment. However, if ethanol-free gas is not readily available or is significantly more expensive, using E10 with proper maintenance and storage practices can still be acceptable[3][4].

Recommendations​

  1. If available and affordable, use ethanol-free gasoline in your lawnmower.
  2. If using E10, consider adding a fuel stabilizer, especially if the equipment will be stored for extended periods[3].
  3. Regardless of fuel type, follow proper storage and maintenance procedures, such as running the engine dry or filling the tank completely before long-term storage[5].
  4. Consult your lawnmower's manual for specific fuel recommendations from the manufacturer.
By following these guidelines, you can help ensure the longevity and performance of your lawnmower engine, regardless of the fuel type you choose.

Citations:
[1] https://www.bellperformance.com/blo...n-your-lawn-mower-or-not-that-is-the-question
[2] https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm
[3]
https://www.reddit.com/r/lawnmowers/comments/16bua5i
[4] https://www.lawnsite.com/threads/is-ethanol-free-gas-worth-it.479827/
[5] https://www.mncorn.org/2022/03/01/setting-the-record-on-using-ethanol-in-small-engines/
Click to expand...
Yep, just because the manufacturer says your engine "can take it", doesn't mean E10 is as good as E0. It isn't.


#113

jes_in_sac

jes_in_sac

Everything in life is a tradeoff, particularly anything associated with equipment, because all engineering is a compromise of one thing for something more desirable. Sure, the purest fuel you can get will work better, but enough to warrant the extra cost and bother? That's up to you. I've got lots of gas-powered equipment on the farm and buy a few months worth of regular gas at Sam's Club, filled in multiple small tanks. I use Stabil360 Marine stabilizer, and no problems. The biggest problem is with older 2-stroke carbs that could not handle any amount of ethanol, but the rebuild kits for them all have materials that are compatible. So basically it's up to you how much you want to spend and how much effort you want to put into equipment gas related "insurance", but usually something else will need attention on it before any gas issues arise. Of course, where I live in CA, there is no ethanol-free gas available.


#114

7394

7394

My Edger / Blower & Chain saw are all 10 some years old & still run great. I only use 100% real gas.. But that's just how I roll.


#115

Smithsonite

Smithsonite

RevB said:
Totally unnecessary unless you are running equipment more than 40+ years old whose rubber components have not been changed to Buna N or hoses made in the stone age. And every new piece of gas powered vehicle has been changed over since at least 1979, 3 years after ethanol was re-introduced (used to be run in the 30s and 40s....WW2 stuff) into the market in 1976 and problems with rubber components was uncovered. Again.
Click to expand...
I ran a small engine shop for 14 years. 95% of my business was cleaning carburetors gummed up, corroded and / or destroyed from ethanol. My customers would say you're dead wrong with that opinion.


#116

Smithsonite

Smithsonite

Do it, or don't do it. Only matters to YOU. The first time you need the equipment and it won't start, and now instead of working on you or the customer's lawn you're tearing into a carburetor and fuel system for a cleaning, THEN you'll want to use E0. :)

Another thing I've learned. Heat accelerates the damage E10 / ethanol does. Up here in the Northeast, snowblowers get stored all summer - just about every single one of my customers was back in the fall with a clogged or completely destroyed carburetor. The ones that weren't were the ones who listened to me, and drained their tanks & carburetors completely ... or filled it up with E0 at the end of the winter.

I haven't used an additive in gasoline since 2001. I had a '94 Honda CBR600F2 4-cylinder sport bike foul all 4 not-so-easy-to-access spark plugs the day I had people on their way as potential buyers, thanks to Sta-Bil additive. I was LIVID!! Got the last sparkplug cleaned and reinstalled just as they pulled in the driveway. No rest for the weary!

Haven't used an additive since. Only equipment in my care that gets additives is diesel equipment, only because you have to - the diesel fuel sucks, just like everything today.


#117

eldowdy

eldowdy

schreib69 said:
Good to know.
We need more input like this.
Most folks have input that is opinions and info that confuses one variable with another-- They use BOTH Fuel stabilizer AND non-ethanol grade fuel.

Do you use stabilizer after things turn cold and you expect to have gas sitting around longer than a couple of months?
Click to expand...
I do. I don't trust 10% ethanol over the winter. It always starts right in the spring.

Ed


#118

R

RevB

JD14SB said:
I find that the 2-cycle small engines such as those on a String Trimmer, Leaf Blower, Mini Mantis Tiller, Chainsaw, and Edgers do need Ethanol-free Gasoline. If regular gasoline is used, the metering diaphragm and fuel pump diaphragm in the Carburetor will lose their flexibility. Corrosion can also result which requires a new Carburetor to fix. Many larger engines do OK on regular gasoline as long as there isn't a bunch of rubber parts in the Carburetor and. My Honda HR-215 Mower made from the late 80's to early 90's still has the original Carburetor. The regular gasoline absorbs water (ethanol). When it cannot absorb any more, than you have water sitting in the gas tank and Carburetor. This will corrode the Carburetors. So when the piece of equipment is parked for the season, run it out of gasoline and it will be fine. I like it when People use regular gasoline and don't drain it or leave it in a 2-cycle Engine since I repair small engines. I see dollar signs.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. Every piece of equipment 40+ years old has already been converted to bunaN or other ethanol proof materials.


#119

R

RevB

Old Gweilo said:
Yep, just because the manufacturer says your engine "can take it", doesn't mean E10 is as good as E0. It isn't.
Click to expand...
With zero evidence to support. Show me the SAE report.....


#120

O

Old Gweilo

RevB said:
With zero evidence to support. Show me the SAE report.....
Click to expand...
I haven't done a homework assignment in decades. This is an "opinion" forum. If you want to fact check, google will work as well for you as it would for me. Fill yer boots.


#121

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

RevB said:
Bullshit. Every piece of equipment 40+ years old has already been converted to bunaN or other ethanol proof materials.
Click to expand...
Some of the very low end handhelds use "yellow " fuel line that is not the real Tygon stuff and E10 will turn it to mush in one season.


#122

Smithsonite

Smithsonite

Yep, I've seen that as well. Marketers years back always pushed that stuff as "ethanol resistant fuel line" - stuff was absolute garbage!

I ended up doing my own research, and testing as it happened. Found Tygothane / Versilon clear hose in formulation C-210-A to be the best, truly fuel-resistant hose on the market today. I installed miles upon miles of the stuff in chainsaw and weedwhacker / string-trimmer fuel tanks, and the stuff has withstood the test of time without ever getting rock hard. It'll turn a bronze color - that's it! Why everyone sold the yellow garbage as "fuel resistant" is mind boggling.

The very first install of the stuff was on my '74 Yamaha RD350 on both the fuel and oil injection lines back in 2012 - the stuff is still working like the first day it was installed.


#123

S

Skippydiesel

RevB said:
Bullshit. Every piece of equipment 40+ years old has already been converted to bunaN or other ethanol proof materials.
Click to expand...
FYI - This Forum is read/contributed too, by people in other countries, where E petrol blends are not mandatory, so not even 10 year old equipment has been converted, let alone 40+years.


#124

R

RevB

The go-to for UL use.


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