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Ferris 23 Hp B&S Engine Vibration
#1
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Ferris 48" Part No 5901740, B&S 23 Hp, Commercial Series, Model 44C777000 5 G1
Engine has developed a vibration, throughout rev range (deck not engaged)
Work done: Armature gap within specification. Valve clearances, adjusted. Spark plugs cleaned & gaped - good spark. Fuel supply - good. Air & fuel filters cleaned.
The vibration started when mower in normal work. Nothing unusual happening.
I am concerned that, having checked all that I can think of, something internal may have come adrift.
Please advise
Engine has developed a vibration, throughout rev range (deck not engaged)
Work done: Armature gap within specification. Valve clearances, adjusted. Spark plugs cleaned & gaped - good spark. Fuel supply - good. Air & fuel filters cleaned.
The vibration started when mower in normal work. Nothing unusual happening.
I am concerned that, having checked all that I can think of, something internal may have come adrift.
Please advise
#2
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Can you better describe the vibration, as COVID has turned our crystal balls into snow globes. We are not standing next to you to see what you see. What color were the plugs you cleaned? I would start with new plugs, double check they are the right ones, and check whether both sides are firing. Might need to purchase two inline spark testers, so you can observe both plugs at the same time.
#3
S
Skippydiesel
Plug colour - one good (light brown) other a bit dark but cleaned up okay.
I agree with new plugs - low cost and never know may solve problem.
S
Skippydiesel
Mower has two ignition coils - have swapped & checked each spark plug - plugs out & grounded, cranked engine - good spark on each.Can you better describe the vibration, as COVID has turned our crystal balls into snow globes. We are not standing next to you to see what you see. What color were the plugs you cleaned? I would start with new plugs, double check they are the right ones, and check whether both sides are firing. Might need to purchase two inline spark testers, so you can observe both plugs at the same time.
Plug colour - one good (light brown) other a bit dark but cleaned up okay.
I agree with new plugs - low cost and never know may solve problem.
#4
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Two new plugs - no change
Removed the hydraulic & deck drive system, from engine crankshaft/PTO - no change. So none of the belt pulleys or electro clutch, are causing the vibration.
Engine starts & runs just fine - vibration (I would describe as medium to high intensity) remains fairly constant (little change with rpm) throughout rev range (ie from idle through to full throttle).
Tomorrow will remove cowling & double check flywheel, however if it was loose/shifted somehow, I would expect the ignition timing to be out and its not.
Anyone familiar with this engine model - please advise if anything can come adrift internally (eg counterweight/balance shaft/etc that may result in engine vibration??????
Removed the hydraulic & deck drive system, from engine crankshaft/PTO - no change. So none of the belt pulleys or electro clutch, are causing the vibration.
Engine starts & runs just fine - vibration (I would describe as medium to high intensity) remains fairly constant (little change with rpm) throughout rev range (ie from idle through to full throttle).
Tomorrow will remove cowling & double check flywheel, however if it was loose/shifted somehow, I would expect the ignition timing to be out and its not.
Anyone familiar with this engine model - please advise if anything can come adrift internally (eg counterweight/balance shaft/etc that may result in engine vibration??????
#5
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
Check the for engine mounting bolts for tightness. I see lots of loose bolts from customers and will cause lots of vibration of engine.Two new plugs - no change
Removed the hydraulic & deck drive system, from engine crankshaft/PTO - no change. So none of the belt pulleys or electro clutch, are causing the vibration.
Engine starts & runs just fine - vibration (I would describe as medium to high intensity) remains fairly constant (little change with rpm) throughout rev range (ie from idle through to full throttle).
Tomorrow will remove cowling & double check flywheel, however if it was loose/shifted somehow, I would expect the ignition timing to be out and its not.
Anyone familiar with this engine model - please advise if anything can come adrift internally (eg counterweight/balance shaft/etc that may result in engine vibration??????
#6
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
All engine mounting bolts tight - no sign of movement/fretting anywhere.
I did not describe the vibration accurately - at low/idle rpm much more/courser/violent vibration, so much so that the carburettor is visibly shaking, to the point I am concerned it may crack an inlet manifold. High rpm, vibration smooths/becomes much more rapid but still very significant.
Compression - turning flywheel by hand seems to be the same on each cylinder (not the most scientific test
)
HELP!!!!!!
I did not describe the vibration accurately - at low/idle rpm much more/courser/violent vibration, so much so that the carburettor is visibly shaking, to the point I am concerned it may crack an inlet manifold. High rpm, vibration smooths/becomes much more rapid but still very significant.
Compression - turning flywheel by hand seems to be the same on each cylinder (not the most scientific test
)HELP!!!!!!
#7
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
SOLVED!!!!!!!
One piston is not moving - stuck up.
I suspect connecting rod big end has separated - thats why there is no noise when cranked.
New Question
Without knowing what the damage may, be is this :
One piston is not moving - stuck up.
I suspect connecting rod big end has separated - thats why there is no noise when cranked.
New Question
Without knowing what the damage may, be is this :
- A cost efective rebuild???
- Replacement engine???
#8
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Most likely not cost effective rebuild unless you get really really lucky and nothing inside the engine is damaged Most likely 99.9% chance will require replacement engine.
And your response is typical of people that never realize that they are only running on one cylinder. People just don't know, and this is not anything that is against you. The typical customer issue is lack of power in cases where the grass in tall or they are driving up their hilly yards. On flat ground and normal grass cutting they don't notice.
And your response is typical of people that never realize that they are only running on one cylinder. People just don't know, and this is not anything that is against you. The typical customer issue is lack of power in cases where the grass in tall or they are driving up their hilly yards. On flat ground and normal grass cutting they don't notice.
#9
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
Yep. A customer will come in with problems and as soon as they start the mower, I know it is running on one cylinder. They just can’t tell.Most likely not cost effective rebuild unless you get really really lucky and nothing inside the engine is damaged Most likely 99.9% chance will require replacement engine.
And your response is typical of people that never realize that they are only running on one cylinder. People just don't know, and this is not anything that is against you. The typical customer issue is lack of power in cases where the grass in tall or they are driving up their hilly yards. On flat ground and normal grass cutting they don't notice.
#10
D
DaveTN
D
DaveTN
Dang it! All I’m seeing in my Diagnostic Crystal Ball is some
homely looking girl from Kansas clicking her heels and
crying about trying to get her mower started back home and
the grass is higher than a wheat field…
homely looking girl from Kansas clicking her heels and
crying about trying to get her mower started back home and
the grass is higher than a wheat field…
#11
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
I am curious;
Most of my experince is with 3-6cylinder diesel engines - never had a failure like this B&S V twin. Anyone care to speculate how/why?
Engine came to me second hand in good esthetic condition (looked well cared for) with a claimed approximate 190 hrs (hour meter frozen at a much lower number). The mower is used weekly (during grass growing months) to assist in keeping a small horse spelling property looking neat & tidy.
Subject to space/fit what engine would you replace the OM with?????:
(a quick brows of the net did not come up with the same model replacement)
In my country the following seem to be available:
Most of my experince is with 3-6cylinder diesel engines - never had a failure like this B&S V twin. Anyone care to speculate how/why?
Engine came to me second hand in good esthetic condition (looked well cared for) with a claimed approximate 190 hrs (hour meter frozen at a much lower number). The mower is used weekly (during grass growing months) to assist in keeping a small horse spelling property looking neat & tidy.
Subject to space/fit what engine would you replace the OM with?????:
(a quick brows of the net did not come up with the same model replacement)
In my country the following seem to be available:
- Kawasaki FX730 23.5 hp (most expensive)
- Vanguard 23 hp (second most expensive)
- B&S 25 hp Commercial Turf Pro Series
- B&S 25 hp Commercial Pro Series (cheapest)
- Then we jump to 27 hp
- B&S 27 hp Commercial CXI Series
- B&S 27 hp Commercial PXI Pro Series
#12
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
What! No thoughts, on engine replacement, from the Forum Brains Trust?????
I would have thought that repowering, of mowers & the like, would be a hot topic.
I would have thought that repowering, of mowers & the like, would be a hot topic.
#13
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Looks like the Briggs recommended engine to replace your current engine is a 44T977-0009-G1 That will be the only direct drop in engine. The Kawasaki engine will also require new exhaust possible wiring changes, etc. The Briggs Commercial engines are all variations of the Intek twin and should have the same wiring set setup, but will also have to different exhaust.
#14
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Yeah! Thanks for that Lawn Royalty - The engine you recomend looks the goods. The extra 2 Hp will be helpful too.
My research to date, suggests that Australia is going through a bit of a B&S twin drought - the engine you specified is not available at the moment BUT Briggs & Stratton 25 Hp Vertical V-Twin Pro Series engine has been offered to me. From my perspective the Pro Series specifications/build is well below the 44T977-0009-G1 - what do you think?
My research to date, suggests that Australia is going through a bit of a B&S twin drought - the engine you specified is not available at the moment BUT Briggs & Stratton 25 Hp Vertical V-Twin Pro Series engine has been offered to me. From my perspective the Pro Series specifications/build is well below the 44T977-0009-G1 - what do you think?
#15
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Out of curiosity - Do you think that the 27 Hp 724cc (49T877) would fit without any chassis modifications???
#16
ILENGINE
Looks like the 49T877-0009-G1 has the same crank dimensions as the 44T977-0009-G1
ILENGINE
The Pro/Commercial engines are just Intek twins with upgraded features which are below the quality of the Vanguard engines.Yeah! Thanks for that Lawn Royalty - The engine you recomend looks the goods. The extra 2 Hp will be helpful too.
My research to date, suggests that Australia is going through a bit of a B&S twin drought - the engine you specified is not available at the moment BUT Briggs & Stratton 25 Hp Vertical V-Twin Pro Series engine has been offered to me. From my perspective the Pro Series specifications/build is well below the 44T977-0009-G1 - what do you think?
It should bolt right up, just make sure the crankshaft diameter and length match your current engine or the specs of the 44T977-0009-G1Out of curiosity - Do you think that the 27 Hp 724cc (49T877) would fit without any chassis modifications???
Looks like the 49T877-0009-G1 has the same crank dimensions as the 44T977-0009-G1
#18
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Just found out that no 27Hp 1in x 3 5/32 in shaft motors imported in to Australia. Dont know why.
#19
M
MParr
M
MParr
Are you able to get Loncin engines? That may be an option. Their engines of that HP rating usually have a 1” crankshaft end. Of course, you will have to modify the wiring.Just found out that no 27Hp 1in x 3 5/32 in shaft motors imported in to Australia. Dont know why.
#20
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Thanks for that MParr. I did a search - Yes Loncin are available in Australia. There is a 24 HP variant with 1" shaft. Very cheap. There is no dealership close to me. My concern would be parts back up. I think I will stick with the B & S that hopefully will arrive in Australia about mid June
#21
M
MParr
M
MParr
Good deal.Thanks for that MParr. I did a search - Yes Loncin are available in Australia. There is a 24 HP variant with 1" shaft. Very cheap. There is no dealership close to me. My concern would be parts back up. I think I will stick with the B & S that hopefully will arrive in Australia about mid June
#22
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Just had a conversation with my local B & S agent;
He said that ever since CV19, supply of engines/parts (across several brand's) from the USA has been awful. Doesn't know why.
He said that ever since CV19, supply of engines/parts (across several brand's) from the USA has been awful. Doesn't know why.
#23
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
Loncin is a Honda clone (Chonda). Loncin, LCT, Predator, Powermore, etc. are all Honda clone Chinese made engines, and have not seen any real issues with them on equipment that comes through my shop. Parts are available online. Dealers often order equipment with these engines to offer a lower cost to the customer. Since customers have often been conditioned to love low cost (Walmart), the popularity continues to grow.Thanks for that MParr. I did a search - Yes Loncin are available in Australia. There is a 24 HP variant with 1" shaft. Very cheap. There is no dealership close to me. My concern would be parts back up. I think I will stick with the B & S that hopefully will arrive in Australia about mid June
#24
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
I am a bit surprised that there has been no speculation, as to the cause of one piston no longer being attached to the crankshaft of this engine???????
#25
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Still waiting for the Brains Trust to speculate on how a piston/con rod ends up separating from the crankshaft.
#26
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
Well, the first thing I would probably do is grab the engine and try to twist it left and right to see if the mounting bolts are loose..
If everything is nice and tight I would put it at a medium speed and running on each cylinder by canceling out the other cylinder by removing the plug wire with a thick rag and glove while it's running.
If it continues to run about the same on each cylinder you could figure that's a decent balance test and it's not crazy heavy towards one side of the engine.
The last thing I have seen cause problems would be whatever belt goes around the engine first..
Even with the PTO and everything else off, there is still some sort of belt and either pulley keeping that belt tight going around the engine that spins anytime it's running.
I had a residential grade 50 in Cub cadet one time and I kid you not I thought it had a rod knocking..
It was yammering so bad that as soon as the guy started it I immediately told him to turn it off because I didn't want to swing a ride to the side of the block.
It was just the belt had worn so much that the idler pulley was slapping back and forth and banging on the frame.
All I had to do is put a new belt on there which effectively was about a half inch smaller but I could have also put a slightly short of belt on there , and the noise was completely gone.
So get a flashlight and look around down there with it running to see if anything is slapping back and forth.
If everything is nice and tight I would put it at a medium speed and running on each cylinder by canceling out the other cylinder by removing the plug wire with a thick rag and glove while it's running.
If it continues to run about the same on each cylinder you could figure that's a decent balance test and it's not crazy heavy towards one side of the engine.
The last thing I have seen cause problems would be whatever belt goes around the engine first..
Even with the PTO and everything else off, there is still some sort of belt and either pulley keeping that belt tight going around the engine that spins anytime it's running.
I had a residential grade 50 in Cub cadet one time and I kid you not I thought it had a rod knocking..
It was yammering so bad that as soon as the guy started it I immediately told him to turn it off because I didn't want to swing a ride to the side of the block.
It was just the belt had worn so much that the idler pulley was slapping back and forth and banging on the frame.
All I had to do is put a new belt on there which effectively was about a half inch smaller but I could have also put a slightly short of belt on there , and the noise was completely gone.
So get a flashlight and look around down there with it running to see if anything is slapping back and forth.
#27
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
My first response to him about this was to cancel out cylinders so that would quickly be determined. LolI am a bit surprised that there has been no speculation, as to the cause of one piston no longer being attached to the crankshaft of this engine???????
#28
B
bertsmobile1
Owner always thought it was under powered for a big engine
There is only 1 piston in the engine and it only had one in there from new
B
bertsmobile1
I have an old Kawasaki water cooled engine that I inherited with the businessYep. A customer will come in with problems and as soon as they start the mower, I know it is running on one cylinder. They just can’t tell.
Owner always thought it was under powered for a big engine
There is only 1 piston in the engine and it only had one in there from new
#29
B
bertsmobile1
I no longer fit B &S engines unless specifically asked to do so
B & S Australia will tell you things are NLA when they are readily available either from the USA directly or from John Deere Australia because they are just too lazy to import them .
Genuine Gator blades being the prime example .
John Deere will supply B & S engines cheaper than B & S will and also they are cheaper for parts but of course you need to know the JD part number .
Better still is the JD engines have much better air filter covers that do not rust the fasteners like std B & S covers do .
Now you have to pull the engine out in any case so pull it out and slip the sump off and see what sort of damage there is inside .
You have nothing to loose but a couple of hours .
3 usual reasons for dropping a rod, in order , over heating , low oil , over reving
Small Engine Warehouse in Australia is affiliated wth Small Engine Warehouse USA who sell superceded engines cheaply
I buy a lot of Kohlers form them as my Australian aftermarket wholesalers only sell Kawasaki or Loncin .
Do not worry about the size of the engine, it makes almost no difference as they all spin at the same speed and the extra power means next to nothing unless you are mowing pasture .
I have fitted a lot of engines that are as much as 5 Hp lower than the original and all the customers ever say is the mower is quieter and uses less fuel.
And this includes 3 commercial customers who mow up to 6 hours a day.
It is TORQUE that does the work and Torque is a function of piston area , stoke & compression.
All B & S engines with the same capacity prefix 44 for instance have the same bore stroke & compression the only difference apart from the stickers is a restrictor gasket between the manifold & the head to reduce the maximum air flow on the lower power engines & some times the governor spring .
Unless you are north of the Qld border the grass should be slowing down by now
Here there is nothing growing here other than Tussock grass, clovers , fire weed & sticky night shade right now
B
bertsmobile1
B & S Australia are pathetic and only interested in wholesaling to Bunnings & Mitre 10Just had a conversation with my local B & S agent;
He said that ever since CV19, supply of engines/parts (across several brand's) from the USA has been awful. Doesn't know why.
I no longer fit B &S engines unless specifically asked to do so
B & S Australia will tell you things are NLA when they are readily available either from the USA directly or from John Deere Australia because they are just too lazy to import them .
Genuine Gator blades being the prime example .
John Deere will supply B & S engines cheaper than B & S will and also they are cheaper for parts but of course you need to know the JD part number .
Better still is the JD engines have much better air filter covers that do not rust the fasteners like std B & S covers do .
Now you have to pull the engine out in any case so pull it out and slip the sump off and see what sort of damage there is inside .
You have nothing to loose but a couple of hours .
3 usual reasons for dropping a rod, in order , over heating , low oil , over reving
Small Engine Warehouse in Australia is affiliated wth Small Engine Warehouse USA who sell superceded engines cheaply
I buy a lot of Kohlers form them as my Australian aftermarket wholesalers only sell Kawasaki or Loncin .
Do not worry about the size of the engine, it makes almost no difference as they all spin at the same speed and the extra power means next to nothing unless you are mowing pasture .
I have fitted a lot of engines that are as much as 5 Hp lower than the original and all the customers ever say is the mower is quieter and uses less fuel.
And this includes 3 commercial customers who mow up to 6 hours a day.
It is TORQUE that does the work and Torque is a function of piston area , stoke & compression.
All B & S engines with the same capacity prefix 44 for instance have the same bore stroke & compression the only difference apart from the stickers is a restrictor gasket between the manifold & the head to reduce the maximum air flow on the lower power engines & some times the governor spring .
Unless you are north of the Qld border the grass should be slowing down by now
Here there is nothing growing here other than Tussock grass, clovers , fire weed & sticky night shade right now
#30
T
TobyU
Some of them are also underpowered.
Bahahahah
T
TobyU
All of my single cylinder lawn mower engines only have one piston in the engine.I have an old Kawasaki water cooled engine that I inherited with the business
Owner always thought it was under powered for a big engine
There is only 1 piston in the engine and it only had one in there from new
Some of them are also underpowered.
Bahahahah
#31
T
TobyU
People worry about getting a 19 or 20.5 horsepower single engine for their repower when we have been using the exact same mowers with a 12 to 15 power for decades to cut the same lawns..
It's very odd that in Australia you have that type of problem. I understand the availability but in the us, any Briggs & Stratton part is always cheaper from them or anyone else then it is to buy it from John Deere.
John Deere takes the exact same part and puts in one of their yellow and green bags and marks with the price 30 or 40%.
As far as snapping the rods, I was slightly disagree on your order that overheating is the first cause and lack of all being the second.
In reality, the two kind of go together or which came first, the Chicken and the egg but the ones I see, lack of oil / lack of lubrication, the oil level being too low is what snaps the rod and they will do it in a heartbeat.
I tell all my customers to never let the oil get below the full mark and even slightly above the full mark is my preference.
Anything below that bottom dot where it says add is really risky.
I've seen a number of them and Kohlers too overheat from grass filled up or nesting over the cooling fins and cause other problems, most commonly slipped valve guides and sometimes popped valve seats and occasionally piston rings losing their tension etc and that cylinder getting low compression because of rings but they very rarely snap a rod as long as they have enough oil enough.
I really don't like the Briggs twins though and if you can get by with a mower like a 42 that has their single engine you'll likely have fewer problems in the future than if you get a Briggs twin.
They all have their issues but parts are just so much more available and cheap for the singles I just rather have one of those if I have to have a Briggs
T
TobyU
Yes, the old horsepower wars and all the lies..B & S Australia are pathetic and only interested in wholesaling to Bunnings & Mitre 10
I no longer fit B &S engines unless specifically asked to do so
B & S Australia will tell you things are NLA when they are readily available either from the USA directly or from John Deere Australia because they are just too lazy to import them .
Genuine Gator blades being the prime example .
John Deere will supply B & S engines cheaper than B & S will and also they are cheaper for parts but of course you need to know the JD part number .
Better still is the JD engines have much better air filter covers that do not rust the fasteners like std B & S covers do .
Now you have to pull the engine out in any case so pull it out and slip the sump off and see what sort of damage there is inside .
You have nothing to loose but a couple of hours .
3 usual reasons for dropping a rod, in order , over heating , low oil , over reving
Small Engine Warehouse in Australia is affiliated wth Small Engine Warehouse USA who sell superceded engines cheaply
I buy a lot of Kohlers form them as my Australian aftermarket wholesalers only sell Kawasaki or Loncin .
Do not worry about the size of the engine, it makes almost no difference as they all spin at the same speed and the extra power means next to nothing unless you are mowing pasture .
I have fitted a lot of engines that are as much as 5 Hp lower than the original and all the customers ever say is the mower is quieter and uses less fuel.
And this includes 3 commercial customers who mow up to 6 hours a day.
It is TORQUE that does the work and Torque is a function of piston area , stoke & compression.
All B & S engines with the same capacity prefix 44 for instance have the same bore stroke & compression the only difference apart from the stickers is a restrictor gasket between the manifold & the head to reduce the maximum air flow on the lower power engines & some times the governor spring .
Unless you are north of the Qld border the grass should be slowing down by now
Here there is nothing growing here other than Tussock grass, clovers , fire weed & sticky night shade right now
People worry about getting a 19 or 20.5 horsepower single engine for their repower when we have been using the exact same mowers with a 12 to 15 power for decades to cut the same lawns..
It's very odd that in Australia you have that type of problem. I understand the availability but in the us, any Briggs & Stratton part is always cheaper from them or anyone else then it is to buy it from John Deere.
John Deere takes the exact same part and puts in one of their yellow and green bags and marks with the price 30 or 40%.
As far as snapping the rods, I was slightly disagree on your order that overheating is the first cause and lack of all being the second.
In reality, the two kind of go together or which came first, the Chicken and the egg but the ones I see, lack of oil / lack of lubrication, the oil level being too low is what snaps the rod and they will do it in a heartbeat.
I tell all my customers to never let the oil get below the full mark and even slightly above the full mark is my preference.
Anything below that bottom dot where it says add is really risky.
I've seen a number of them and Kohlers too overheat from grass filled up or nesting over the cooling fins and cause other problems, most commonly slipped valve guides and sometimes popped valve seats and occasionally piston rings losing their tension etc and that cylinder getting low compression because of rings but they very rarely snap a rod as long as they have enough oil enough.
I really don't like the Briggs twins though and if you can get by with a mower like a 42 that has their single engine you'll likely have fewer problems in the future than if you get a Briggs twin.
They all have their issues but parts are just so much more available and cheap for the singles I just rather have one of those if I have to have a Briggs
#32
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Interesting - This mower is second hand, is aesthetically in good order and since my customer has had it been serviced, minimal/nil chaff in the cylinder fins, does not use oil and was running just fine until dropping the con rod.
#33
B
bertsmobile1
The sump gasket is the oil level ( well a tiny bit lower actually )
Now look at the position of the oil pump & pick up pipe / strainer .
Imagine just how little of a tilt it would take to have the strainer out of the oil so the pump was pumping air .
You have about 2 minutes like that before some thing will go bang or the top bush will seize
The lubrication of the little end & bore is essentially by splash so if the mower is high on the left the cylinder gets too much oil splash and if it is low then it gets too little .
I killed 2 engines before I twigged to this as I have a 540 yard street frontage with a compound slope
B
bertsmobile1
Pull the engine apart and have a look at the sumpInteresting - This mower is second hand, is aesthetically in good order and since my customer has had it been serviced, minimal/nil chaff in the cylinder fins, does not use oil and was running just fine until dropping the con rod.
The sump gasket is the oil level ( well a tiny bit lower actually )
Now look at the position of the oil pump & pick up pipe / strainer .
Imagine just how little of a tilt it would take to have the strainer out of the oil so the pump was pumping air .
You have about 2 minutes like that before some thing will go bang or the top bush will seize
The lubrication of the little end & bore is essentially by splash so if the mower is high on the left the cylinder gets too much oil splash and if it is low then it gets too little .
I killed 2 engines before I twigged to this as I have a 540 yard street frontage with a compound slope
#34
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Delivery of new engine iminent!
I understand the new engine crankcase mounting holes will not be threaded.
There is some suggestion that the mounting bolts will cut their own thread.
Is using the existing bolts the best way to cut threads into the mounting holes???
Never done this before - Best technique By hand?? or Use a "rattle gun"??
OR
Should I tap/thread the holes to match the mounting bolts??
OR
Fit new HT bolts & lock nuts??? ie not bother with threading the crankcase holes.
I understand the new engine crankcase mounting holes will not be threaded.
There is some suggestion that the mounting bolts will cut their own thread.
Is using the existing bolts the best way to cut threads into the mounting holes???
Never done this before - Best technique By hand?? or Use a "rattle gun"??
OR
Should I tap/thread the holes to match the mounting bolts??
OR
Fit new HT bolts & lock nuts??? ie not bother with threading the crankcase holes.
#35
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
All are good considerations except the rattle gun.Delivery of new engine iminent!
I understand the new engine crankcase mounting holes will not be threaded.
There is some suggestion that the mounting bolts will cut their own thread.
Is using the existing bolts the best way to cut threads into the mounting holes???
Never done this before - Best technique By hand?? or Use a "rattle gun"??
OR
Should I tap/thread the holes to match the mounting bolts??
OR
Fit new HT bolts & lock nuts??? ie not bother with threading the crankcase holes.
#36
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Have you done a new engine install?All are good considerations except the rattle gun.
#37
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Briggs, Kohler, Honda, Tecumseh, MTD Branded engines. So I have done a few. The issue with the rattle gun especially with the self tapping bolts is they don't really cut threads as much as Pressure form them into the aluminum. So it is better to take them slow and turn each a little at a time to allow for some pressure relief. Rattle gun can force the bolts in ,which is some cases will cause them to break off. And self threading bolts don't come out without a fight.Have you done a new engine install?
#38
S
Skippydiesel
I have done way less than you.
The few I have done B&S, Kawasaki were my own machines and done with suitable HT nuts/ bolts & washers.
This machine belongs to my neighbour/customer, so sort of thinking to go with the OM way of attaching the engine ie threaded holes. What do you think?
My preference would be what I have done before - just seems to be more professional somehow.
S
Skippydiesel
Interesting!Briggs, Kohler, Honda, Tecumseh, MTD Branded engines. So I have done a few. The issue with the rattle gun especially with the self tapping bolts is they don't really cut threads as much as Pressure form them into the aluminum. So it is better to take them slow and turn each a little at a time to allow for some pressure relief. Rattle gun can force the bolts in ,which is some cases will cause them to break off. And self threading bolts don't come out without a fight.
I have done way less than you.
The few I have done B&S, Kawasaki were my own machines and done with suitable HT nuts/ bolts & washers.
This machine belongs to my neighbour/customer, so sort of thinking to go with the OM way of attaching the engine ie threaded holes. What do you think?
My preference would be what I have done before - just seems to be more professional somehow.
#39
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
For speed the self threading bolts are the fastest and tend to somewhat self lock into place. Also certain engines have hidden mounting holes so can't use bolt and nut setups. Tapped threaded holes can be just as good, but somethings need to be backed up with a nut to lock the bolt in place. Also installing nuts can be a pain in cases of limited visibilty and access to mounting holes to install washers and nuts.
#41
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
I have found that threading with a standard tap makes for a loose fit if you are using the std self tappers
So I use my air ratchet to prethread the holes before fitting.
It is near impossible to push up hard enough to cut the threads when you are under the mower and there is nothing holding the engine down
also use nickel ( silver suff ) anti sieze to lube the hole
And always use NEW bolts
Old bolts are not sharp on the edges and may cause the mounting lug to split
Double ditto on not using a rattle gun I tried that with an old bolt and it split the lug as well
I normally put a 1/4" thick washer on the bolt so the thread is not fully pre cut so there is enough thread for the bolt to screw in and finish the last 1/4" during installation.
So I use my air ratchet to prethread the holes before fitting.
It is near impossible to push up hard enough to cut the threads when you are under the mower and there is nothing holding the engine down
also use nickel ( silver suff ) anti sieze to lube the hole
And always use NEW bolts
Old bolts are not sharp on the edges and may cause the mounting lug to split
Double ditto on not using a rattle gun I tried that with an old bolt and it split the lug as well
I normally put a 1/4" thick washer on the bolt so the thread is not fully pre cut so there is enough thread for the bolt to screw in and finish the last 1/4" during installation.
#42
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Ah! so you do the self tapping, before installing the engine - good plan.
Thanks for the tip on not using the old self tappers - thats exactly what I would have tried to do.
Thanks for the tip on not using the old self tappers - thats exactly what I would have tried to do.
#43
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Te bolts are about $ 1 a piece from all of the aftermarket places like Stens, Rotary, Prime Line
Usually either one jug fractures ( not a problem 3 will work fine but 2 won't ) or one of the bolts breaks
Usually either one jug fractures ( not a problem 3 will work fine but 2 won't ) or one of the bolts breaks
#44
H
Heretik
H
Heretik
Hello and guddai fellow weekend grass cutters. At my age I doit every day, if desired; cut the grass. I downgraded to a Electric ZTR with iDrive. I don't like it as well as the carbon spewing, gas guzzling, annual maintenance required services of Lap Bar Steering Hustler ZTR. Mostly I don't like the iDrive.
I want to return the Hustler back in into service; but,
I've an issue with engine bolt patterns and any help would be very much appreciated.
I've a Hustler Raptor with a dead Kawasaki FR651, aka bolt pattern #1. I want to swap it out to a B&S 44T977-0009-G1.
I've a wild ignorant idea that similar sized vertical shaft gasoline twin engines have the same bolt pattern. Of course there will be those manufacturers striving for proprietary superiority, like Apple computers. Yeah, yeah, nowhere the same.
I've looked and Googled again, but mounting bolt patterns don't seem to be available. Any help wood bee greatly appreciated.
Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Property was the intent of the Framers; to enable all to become "Landed Gentry". After all, having Life and Liberty it would be redundant to declare Happiness a principal of the Constitution.
And while I'm scratching for answers, someone please tell me the gawds truth in HP of the above identified B&S engine.
I want to return the Hustler back in into service; but,
I've an issue with engine bolt patterns and any help would be very much appreciated.
I've a Hustler Raptor with a dead Kawasaki FR651, aka bolt pattern #1. I want to swap it out to a B&S 44T977-0009-G1.
I've a wild ignorant idea that similar sized vertical shaft gasoline twin engines have the same bolt pattern. Of course there will be those manufacturers striving for proprietary superiority, like Apple computers. Yeah, yeah, nowhere the same.
I've looked and Googled again, but mounting bolt patterns don't seem to be available. Any help wood bee greatly appreciated.
Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Property was the intent of the Framers; to enable all to become "Landed Gentry". After all, having Life and Liberty it would be redundant to declare Happiness a principal of the Constitution.
And while I'm scratching for answers, someone please tell me the gawds truth in HP of the above identified B&S engine.
#45
Craftsman Garage
Craftsman Garage
Just start a new Thread-