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Today I spent time online studying ethanol. Here are the facts which seem relevant to this forum, IMO.

THE MIX: The ethanol is mixed in a "dry" form with gas which results in a uniform blend. Water is
not present as a separate liquid. But ethanol will attract water and it WILL EXIST AS
SLUG AMOUNTS OF WATER separate from the gas mixture in your tank/lines
depending upon the blend (E10, E15). Tight containers and short storage time important

STARTING: Ethanol does degrade starting, but not supposed to in the US. This is not due to the
water issue, rather inherent to the ethanol.

CORROSION: Ethanol is a scouring agent and will loosen materials which gasoline won't. This crud
will circulate until it is eliminated. Perhaps frequent gas filter changes for a year?

Ethanol destroys oxide layers. Think anodize and think natural film aluminum produces to
protect itself. Also ethanol increases (electrical) conductivity. Think electrolyte as in a
battery. These processes probably produce crud which clogs fuel systems.

HEAT US Dept Energy study. Exhaust gas temp increases 20 C with E15. (No wonder the heads
get hot). Piston heads were softer. Piston pins showed 6% hotter color.

MPG Fuel consumption for E15 is 10% higher due to reduced torque.

EPA Your government has "gwaranteed" safe use of E15 (15% ethanol) for all cars and small
motors from 2001 and later including two strokes. That should mean
the materials and components are ethanol proof. Prior to 2001 all bets are off I guess.

I stopped reading after a couple hours on line. I can post some of the sites or just type in ethanol
yourself for reading pleasure.

I remember a few years ago at either Stihl or Echo service school, they told us "that in California, it is best to use 87 octane fuel, because 87 has less ethanol which causes a lot of carb corrosion problems" (California has their own blend of fuel than the rest of the country)

A couple other intersting notes...Ethanol gas will absorb up to 4 teaspoons of water per gallon before separating and riding along with you as water "slugs."

Some chatter on line about ruined 2 strokes due to water attraction to ethanol and dilution of lubricant. Don't know what year machine but it was supposedly new. My Ryobi (vintage 2000?) never had a problem. I always ran Poulan synthetic oil.

motoman said:

A couple other intersting notes...Ethanol gas will absorb up to 4 teaspoons of water per gallon before separating and riding along with you as water "slugs."

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+1 very true. There is a water test kit available through one of my distributors, which is nothing more than a small vial with graduations on it. You put your test "out of the pump" fuel in it, shake it, and let it sit overnight. Sure enough, it "does" separate! Reading the graduation marks on this small vial shows the % of fuel to ethanol/water. I have found that Arco was by far, the worst offender.
Too bad they don't just design our engines for use with ethanol only like they do for Indy cars.

I saw a lot of water /fuel filters online. Some are funnel type for drawing from big tanks . Others look like oil filters , some with sight glass all the way or at bottom. Remind me a little of air compressor filters. But I did not see a smallish one for a rider. Most sourcing is outboard/inboard motors, and large tractors, including diesel. I guess the boaters really get some watered gas at some foreign ports, and one site was "docs without borders" in Africa. The filters are big and seem to range about $35-$250. I'll keep on keeping on. I just started the intek to add a little Sta-Bil. It is 37F today, but it started after about 8-10 revs.

My old Tecumseh powered snowblower started on one pull yesterday with 3 month old 2stroke mix. Real gas though. Stabil added at the pump.

This topic got me thinking. When I used that test kit I mentioned, and after sitting overnight, it showed the % of separation, How do the filling stations avoid this? Do they have agitators in their underground tanks to keep the mix? If not, I would hate to get fuel when their tanks are low.

chance123 said:

This topic got me thinking. When I used that test kit I mentioned, and after sitting overnight, it showed the % of separation, How do the filling stations avoid this? Do they have agitators in their underground tanks to keep the mix? If not, I would hate to get fuel when their tanks are low.

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isn't it the evaporation that causes the problems in the carburetors? leaving the nasty deposits behind to do their damage?

twinfords said:

isn't it the evaporation that causes the problems in the carburetors? leaving the nasty deposits behind to do their damage?

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My thought was that if the fuel separates in my test vial, wouldn't it also separate in the gas station's underground storage tanks?

chance123 said:

My thought was that if the fuel separates in my test vial, wouldn't it also separate in the gas station's underground storage tanks?

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Very true....I would think that it would. :frown:

The reading talked about ethanol already mixed in gas accepting a certain amount of water which would remain mixed (the 3 of them) up to the point of a "phase shift" at which point some ethanol fell out of ?solution? and existed along side ethanol gas with water in water form. The article did find idling irregularities due to the water.

Regarding tank storage. I don't know if the underground tanks are moisture proof or if the turnovers are enough to avoid taking on moisture. Also if the tanks are turned over quickly maybe evaporation can not take place. A fuller tank gives less room for evaporation.

Prior to this topic I only avoided gas stations where tankers were filling them because of stirred up dirt which I read can plug a car filter with one fill. I forgot to mention a site selling a gas station filter for about $35 which can be used to determine water % before filling. Chance may have told us about this one,

twinfords said:

isn't it the evaporation that causes the problems in the carburetors? leaving the nasty deposits behind to do their damage?

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I hear ya...but the article stressed scouring of existing deposits. I know that alcohol is a great cleaner with a rag. The other point made was that ethanol is a kind of electrolyte which helps one kind of material to be "robbed" (like ?aluminum?) and deposited elsewhere ( ? like brass ? or casting alloy?) Think anode in hot water tank. This is the process used in plating chrome bumpers etc. And what goes on inside a lead acid battery, except we reverse the deposits with charging. We can't reverse the process in carbs (I guess) , only select best materials.

i never have problems of water in my fuel i use one of these when i fill my mowers and other equipment
2.5 GPM Fuel Filter Funnel - 3950482 | Tractor Supply Company

Someone PM'd me but I accidently deleted it. That fuel test kit is $8.00. Resend your PM.

OH, and just to keep this discussion going.. ethanol is an octane booster so (in this thread) it's true the higher octane gas has more (or different ) ethanol. The dragsters develop 2000 hp with a close relative (nitro), I think.

Also water is not always the bad guy . Doesn't your car feel strong on cold damp days? The Corvair Spyder (4 cyl) air cooled turbocharged loved injection of alcohol and water to tame detonation. The new direct injection car engines develop their extra ?25%? HP through more advance, higher comp and COOLER intake charge. So what? So nuthin...just fun. :laughing:

motoman said:

OH, and just to keep this discussion going.. ethanol is an octane booster so (in this thread) it's true the higher octane gas has more (or different ) ethanol. The dragsters develop 2000 hp with a close relative (nitro), I think.

Also water is not always the bad guy . Doesn't your car feel strong on cold damp days? The Corvair Spyder (4 cyl) air cooled turbocharged loved injection of alcohol and water to tame detonation. The new direct injection car engines develop their extra ?25%? HP through more advance, higher comp and COOLER intake charge. So what? So nuthin...just fun. :laughing:

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Your car feels strong on cold days because the gas is cold. A old drag racing trick was to coil the fuel line in a bucket and cover it with ice.

Sent from my iPhone using LMF

motoman said:

OH, and just to keep this discussion going.. ethanol is an octane booster so (in this thread) it's true the higher octane gas has more (or different ) ethanol. The dragsters develop 2000 hp with a close relative (nitro), I think.

Also water is not always the bad guy . Doesn't your car feel strong on cold damp days? The Corvair Spyder (4 cyl) air cooled turbocharged loved injection of alcohol and water to tame detonation. The new direct injection car engines develop their extra ?25%? HP through more advance, higher comp and COOLER intake charge. So what? So nuthin...just fun. :laughing:

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Yes Indy cars run on it too. When they rarely catch fire, you can hardly see the flame and no smoke because of the "clean" burn of that fuel. I "think" what happens when water is injected into an engine is the water instantly expands as it turns into steam therefore creating higher compression. I used to take a spray bottle and spray water into an old 2 stroke motorcycle air intake to remove the carbon.