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Engine choices?

Jan 18, 2014#1

T

tom-ky

Same zero turn mower with a 48" deck comes with either a 27 HP Briggs & Stratton Professional Series or a 18.5 gross hp Kawasaki FS600V. Seems like lots of hp difference. Are they rated in such a different way?

Jan 18, 2014#2

reynoldston

Just something I don't like about the Kawasaki engine. Back in my earlier snowmobile years, snowmobiles were using Kawasaki engines. I can recall replacing a lot of cylinders and pistons in the Kawasaki engines because they would destroy the pistons. Also it seems like when ever I need to buy parts for a Kawasaki engine the parts are way overpriced. Of the two engines I will say B&S.

Jan 18, 2014#3

Ric

tom-ky said:
Same zero turn mower with a 48" deck comes with either a 27 HP Briggs & Stratton Professional Series or a 18.5 gross hp Kawasaki FS600V. Seems like lots of hp difference. Are they rated in such a different way?

Everyone is going to have different opinions but at the moment Kawasaki has the market on mower engines. I've run two different Kawasaki engines everyday for the last two seasons , The FJ 180cc KAI on my Toro TurfMaster 30" mower and the 15hp FS 541V on the Toro Grandstand and they have been the best engines I've ever run. Briggs & Statton makes a typical poor quality low end engine that typical don't hold up long and is considered a "disposable" engine fit only for department store mowers.

Jan 18, 2014#4

M

Mad Mackie

I repowered my Scag Tiger Cub ZTR last March with a B&S 30 HP Professional Turf Series engine and I'm very happy with it, 100 hours on it. This machine has a collection system and the B&S engine with the Cyclonic Air Filtration System is doing a fine job filtering the incoming air.
Every engine series is built for a particular price range and market. If you go over onto other equipment sites where more commercial users congregate, you will see that Kawasaki engines have their share of problems. This past year, due to problems with some Kohler engine series, several mower manufacturers were back logged on machine production as Kawasaki had a production problem and got behind.
Several engine manufacturers have intentionally under rated the advertised horse power due to a class action suit against all small engine manufacturers several years ago.
I also have a Hustler X-ONE 60" rear discharge deck with a Kawi FX730V engine, great machine with a great engine.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Jan 18, 2014#5

wjjones

Everything I have run for the last 15 years has B&S on it, and I havent had any major problems at all.

Jan 18, 2014#6

Carscw

I run briggs on almost every mower I have and will continue to.

Jan 29, 2014#7

Terry CleanFuel

tom-ky said:
Same zero turn mower with a 48" deck comes with either a 27 HP Briggs & Stratton Professional Series or a 18.5 gross hp Kawasaki FS600V. Seems like lots of hp difference. Are they rated in such a different way?

I think Kawasaki's "chickens came home to roost". They encountered some rating problems a few years ago.

Many manufacturers claims are ridiculous. Ever seen a mower on a dyno? If you know a good mechanic ask him.

This forum is a great place to ask. Lots of practical experience here.

Jan 29, 2014#8

Terry CleanFuel

tom-ky said:
Same zero turn mower with a 48" deck comes with either a 27 HP Briggs & Stratton Professional Series or a 18.5 gross hp Kawasaki FS600V. Seems like lots of hp difference. Are they rated in such a different way?

You didn't by chance visit the GIE in Louisville did you? That is a great place for answers.

Jan 29, 2014#9

exotion

Ignore HP. Look at torque and quality of parts that will answer your question

Jan 29, 2014#10

T

tom-ky

Terry CleanFuel said:
You didn't by chance visit the GIE in Louisville did you? That is a great place for answers.

No, just trying to figure out what to buy.

Jan 29, 2014#11

T

tom-ky

exotion said:
Ignore HP. Look at torque and quality of parts that will answer your question

To me it seems B&S parts are easier to find, but never had a Kawasaki to ever look for parts. Most dealers around here say Kawasaki is better but say they have no problems out of B&S. Just want a mower I can run for 15 years.

Jan 29, 2014#12

exotion

tom-ky said:
To me it seems B&S parts are easier to find, but never had a Kawasaki to ever look for parts. Most dealers around here say Kawasaki is better but say they have no problems out of B&S. Just want a mower I can run for 15 years.

I'm sure if you baby it any engine will work as long as you need

Jan 29, 2014#13

pricelandscaping

Kawasaki fan I am and always will be

Jan 30, 2014#14

exotion

pricelandscaping said:
Kawasaki fan I am and always will be

Well kawasaki have proven them selves a lot most commercial machines use them they are tuff reliable and user friendly briggs are used on all of the cheap machines just saying

Jan 30, 2014#15

pricelandscaping

I agree the only brand motor I don't have alot of experience with is kohler engines some people prefer them over any other like I said I'm a kawasaki fan but I would mind a kohler to try

Jan 30, 2014#16

exotion

pricelandscaping said:
I agree the only brand motor I don't have alot of experience with is kohler engines some people prefer them over any other like I said I'm a kawasaki fan but I would mind a kohler to try

I've used a couple kohlers for small amounts of time never long enough to make a good judgement and I've never worked on one. I've heard people who love the kohler command never buy anything different. I've heard lots of bad thing about the.kohler courage but I'm sure they fixed itby now

Jan 30, 2014#17

M

Mad Mackie

Briggs recently introduced their Professional Series/Commercial Turf Series engine line and the 30 HP engine was first to be produced. Lower HP models have been showing up on new machines of various makes. I think that these engines will replace the ELS series eventually. The ELS series have the plastic intake manifold which proved to be problematic and the minimal air filtration was also a problem. My Scag Tiger Cub originally had a Briggs 26 HP ELS engine that had decreasing compression in the #1 cylinder. A leakdown test showed a high rate of leakage by the rings, the other cylinder had 140 PSI compression. I replace this engine with a Commercial Turf Series 30 HP as it was a direct fit, same cables and muffler. I had thought that I would buy a Kawasaki FX730V just like the one on my Hustler X-ONE, but the cost of doing so was more than twice of the Briggs. I'm pleased with the Briggs and I like the additional power. Briggs did a total redesign to include a much more effective air filtration system and a cast aluminum intake manifold and I think that these engines will be a winner. Although more HP than the original engine, the fuel consumption after breakin was less than the 26 HP ELS engine, so I'm a happy camper with this package and looking forward to a trouble free season.:thumbsup:
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Feb 1, 2014#18

Terry CleanFuel

pricelandscaping said:
Kawasaki fan I am and always will be

Me too, they're a class act.

I traveled around the country presenting at their Kawasaki Power Dealer Schools and they spend a TON of money making sure the Techs are kept up to date with the latest news and specs for Kaws. Their Technical Support is the best in the business.

As far as parts are concerned I would think any small engine place should have them.

Feb 1, 2014#19

M

Mad Mackie

Briggs does the same thing. What people need to understand is that Kawasaki doesn't make any small HP engines as Honda, Briggs and Kohler do. Kawasaki engine options on all brands of machines are more expensive than other brands. This forum doesn't cover as many commercial operators as other forums do and as result the lower HP engine manufacturers get discussed here more often which makes their failure rate out of proportion relative to other small engine manufacturers. I assure you that on other forums where commercial operators frequent more, you will find many comments about Kawasaki engine problems, to the point where one will question what is it with Kawasaki small engines!!! Already owning a Kawasaki powered Hustler X-ONE, I wanted to repower my Briggs ELS powered Scag Tiger Cub ZTR with a Kawasaki FX730V. When I priced out what I needed to repower with a Kawasaki, it was more than twice the cost of repowering with a Briggs Commercial Turf Series engine, so I went with the Briggs engine. Both engines had a 24 month warranty as a repower and in the long run I can repower with 2 and 1/2 Briggs engines to one Kawasaki FX engine money wise, so tell me the difference.
Briggs has all HP ranges covered in their line, Kohler does the same, Honda is there also, but Kawasaki has stayed away from the under 10 HP engine coverage and this is OK. There is no doubt that Kawasaki generally makes a great engine, but those who had purchased several Kawasaki liquid cooled engines models in the past to fairly recent, know that their failure rate was very high and are not happy with these engines and Kawasaki in general. Locally to me are several Scag ZTRs for sale, two have been repowered with liquid cooled Kawasaki engines. I made offers on several of these machines and was turned down. I told these folk that they would have better offers from me had they not repowered these machines with liquid cooled Kawasaki engines. These machines have been for sale since last season. I can finance new machines thru Scag 48 month zero interest program, order the engines that I desire, have a 36 month engine warranty and make out better than buying a used but repowered machine.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Feb 3, 2014#20

Terry CleanFuel

Mad Mackie said:
Briggs does the same thing. What people need to understand is that Kawasaki doesn't make any small HP engines as Honda, Briggs and Kohler do. Kawasaki engine options on all brands of machines are more expensive than other brands. This forum doesn't cover as many commercial operators as other forums do and as result the lower HP engine manufacturers get discussed here more often which makes their failure rate out of proportion relative to other small engine manufacturers. I assure you that on other forums where commercial operators frequent more, you will find many comments about Kawasaki engine problems, to the point where one will question what is it with Kawasaki small engines!!! Already owning a Kawasaki powered Hustler X-ONE, I wanted to repower my Briggs ELS powered Scag Tiger Cub ZTR with a Kawasaki FX730V. When I priced out what I needed to repower with a Kawasaki, it was more than twice the cost of repowering with a Briggs Commercial Turf Series engine, so I went with the Briggs engine. Both engines had a 24 month warranty as a repower and in the long run I can repower with 2 and 1/2 Briggs engines to one Kawasaki FX engine money wise, so tell me the difference.
Briggs has all HP ranges covered in their line, Kohler does the same, Honda is there also, but Kawasaki has stayed away from the under 10 HP engine coverage and this is OK. There is no doubt that Kawasaki generally makes a great engine, but those who had purchased several Kawasaki liquid cooled engines models in the past to fairly recent, know that their failure rate was very high and are not happy with these engines and Kawasaki in general. Locally to me are several Scag ZTRs for sale, two have been repowered with liquid cooled Kawasaki engines. I made offers on several of these machines and was turned down. I told these folk that they would have better offers from me had they not repowered these machines with liquid cooled Kawasaki engines. These machines have been for sale since last season. I can finance new machines thru Scag 48 month zero interest program, order the engines that I desire, have a 36 month engine warranty and make out better than buying a used but repowered machine.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

VERY well said! I deal almost exclusively with Commercial Landscapers and have gone to bat with them to Kawasaki. Kawasaki is very accommodating.

Kawasaki sells to their meat and potatoes. You can't blame them for paying the rent.

Mar 19, 2014#21

R

RustyBoy

reynoldston said:
Just something I don't like about the Kawasaki engine. Back in my earlier snowmobile years, snowmobiles were using Kawasaki engines. I can recall replacing a lot of cylinders and pistons in the Kawasaki engines because they would destroy the pistons. Also it seems like when ever I need to buy parts for a Kawasaki engine the parts are way overpriced. Of the two engines I will say B&S.

If the Kawi is questionable and the Briggs low end replaceable, is the Kohler better???

Mar 20, 2014#22

Ric

Mad Mackie said:
Briggs does the same thing. What people need to understand is that Kawasaki doesn't make any small HP engines as Honda, Briggs and Kohler do. Kawasaki engine options on all brands of machines are more expensive than other brands. This forum doesn't cover as many commercial operators as other forums do and as result the lower HP engine manufacturers get discussed here more often which makes their failure rate out of proportion relative to other small engine manufacturers. I assure you that on other forums where commercial operators frequent more, you will find many comments about Kawasaki engine problems, to the point where one will question what is it with Kawasaki small engines!!! Already owning a Kawasaki powered Hustler X-ONE, I wanted to repower my Briggs ELS powered Scag Tiger Cub ZTR with a Kawasaki FX730V. When I priced out what I needed to repower with a Kawasaki, it was more than twice the cost of repowering with a Briggs Commercial Turf Series engine, so I went with the Briggs engine. Both engines had a 24 month warranty as a repower and in the long run I can repower with 2 and 1/2 Briggs engines to one Kawasaki FX engine money wise, so tell me the difference.
Briggs has all HP ranges covered in their line, Kohler does the same, Honda is there also, but Kawasaki has stayed away from the under 10 HP engine coverage and this is OK. There is no doubt that Kawasaki generally makes a great engine, but those who had purchased several Kawasaki liquid cooled engines models in the past to fairly recent, know that their failure rate was very high and are not happy with these engines and Kawasaki in general. Locally to me are several Scag ZTRs for sale, two have been repowered with liquid cooled Kawasaki engines. I made offers on several of these machines and was turned down. I told these folk that they would have better offers from me had they not repowered these machines with liquid cooled Kawasaki engines. These machines have been for sale since last season. I can finance new machines thru Scag 48 month zero interest program, order the engines that I desire, have a 36 month engine warranty and make out better than buying a used but repowered machine.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

About the Kawasaki staying away from engines under 10 hp you would be wrong. They Make the FJ 180V and the FJ180V KAI engines that are Commercial engines and the best small engine I've every run. They have them on the Exmark 30" Toro Turf-master and the Toro 21" commercial mowers. They also have two residential models.

http://kawpower.com/engines/fj/fj180v

http://kawpower.com/engines/fj-kai/fj180v-kai

Mar 23, 2014#23

M

motoman

tom-ky, You will be baffled by the different opinions. A lot of these forum members are pro's and have better weighted answers than me because of numbers of machines they have known. Nevertheless, I would never buy Briggs again after the problems I had with a brand new 2004 Intek 24. Right or wrong my next will be Kaw-powered due to their apparent expertise with motorcycle engine manufacture. I have asked forum members to tell me how the so called "Platinum" Briggs engine is improved. No one has answered, and the Briggs brochure appears to be fluff and "badge" engineering. :2cents:.

Mar 23, 2014#24

Carscw

motoman said:
tom-ky, You will be baffled by the different opinions. A lot of these forum members are pro's and have better weighted answers than me because of numbers of machines they have known. Nevertheless, I would never buy Briggs again after the problems I had with a brand new 2004 Intek 24. Right or wrong my next will be Kaw-powered due to their apparent expertise with motorcycle engine manufacture. I have asked forum members to tell me how the so called "Platinum" Briggs engine is improved. No one has answered, and the Briggs brochure appears to be fluff and "badge" engineering. :2cents:.

I can honestly say I do not have a favorite brand of engine. When I buy a new mower I look at everything but what brand engine it has. My feeling are every engine has or has had it's flaws. I just don't have engine problems. Maybe it's luck of the draw maybe it's because I obsess over maintance.

Mar 23, 2014#25

M

motoman

That's what hurt on the Intek 24. It had very careful maintenace and then bit the hand that lubed it. Check that. It mangled the hand that lubed it.

Mar 23, 2014#26

Ric

RustyBoy said:
If the Kawi is questionable and the Briggs low end replaceable, is the Kohler better???

I don't see the Kawasaki as questionable and as far as Briggs like someone else mentioned they use those on the cheap stuff, basically the throw away stuff. The Kohler is a great engine and has been around seems like forever. The Kohler Command is an excellent engine as well as the Courage. I've run the 20 and 22hp courage engines on ZTR's and put a lot of hours on both and never had any issues. At the moment Kawasaki and Kohler have the commercial market, Briggs keeps trying to establish itself in the commercial end but they just keep failing with their attempts. Honda also tried the Commercial end with a V twin, in fact Hustler ran there V Twin Honda for a while but it didn't seem to do well, I don't know if that was a cost related thing or just the engine itself not doing well. At any rate you wont go wrong with either the Kawasaki or Kohler engine, both are strong and reliable engines.

Mar 23, 2014#27

M

Mad Mackie

Ric said:
About the Kawasaki staying away from engines under 10 hp you would be wrong. They Make the FJ 180V and the FJ180V KAI engines that are Commercial engines and the best small engine I've every run. They have them on the Exmark 30" Toro Turf-master and the Toro 21" commercial mowers. They also have two residential models.

FJ180V | Kawasaki - Engines, Replacement Parts, and Power Products FJ180V KAI | Kawasaki - Engines, Replacement Parts, and Power Products

What is the HP ratings of these engines?

Mar 23, 2014#28

M

Mad Mackie

Ric said:
I don't see the Kawasaki as questionable and as far as Briggs like someone else mentioned they use those on the cheap stuff, basically the throw away stuff. The Kohler is a great engine and has been around seems like forever. The Kohler Command is an excellent engine as well as the Courage. I've run the 20 and 22hp courage engines on ZTR's and put a lot of hours on both and never had any issues. At the moment Kawasaki and Kohler have the commercial market, Briggs keeps trying to establish itself in the commercial end but they just keep failing with their attempts. Honda also tried the Commercial end with a V twin, in fact Hustler ran there V Twin Honda for a while but it didn't seem to do well, I don't know if that was a cost related thing or just the engine itself not doing well. At any rate you wont go wrong with either the Kawasaki or Kohler engine, both are strong and reliable engines.

I've seen and heard of more Kohler Courage failures than others, Kohler Commands that blew out the oil gallery plugs, some twin Briggs Inteks/ELS engines had problems, liquid cooled vertical Kawis FD 731s that cooked and failed.
Mad Mackie in CT:smile:

Mar 23, 2014#29

Fish

motoman said:
That's what hurt on the Intek 24. It had very careful maintenace and then bit the hand that lubed it. Check that. It mangled the hand that lubed it.

If you bought it new in 2004, that was 10 years ago. It bit/mangled the hand that lubed it??? So the failure was lube related?

Let me guess, one of the cam lobes got wiped out?????

Just curious, not wanting a fight.....

Mar 23, 2014#30

Ric

Mad Mackie said:
What is the HP ratings of these engines?

There running any where from 5 to 7 Hp. The Fj180v is 6 hp residential unit and the FJ180V Kai a is a 6 hp Commercial unit. The Kai is what's on the Exmark 30" and the Toro Turf-master 30" and the 21"

Mar 23, 2014#31

M

Mad Mackie

motoman said:
tom-ky, You will be baffled by the different opinions. A lot of these forum members are pro's and have better weighted answers than me because of numbers of machines they have known. Nevertheless, I would never buy Briggs again after the problems I had with a brand new 2004 Intek 24. Right or wrong my next will be Kaw-powered due to their apparent expertise with motorcycle engine manufacture. I have asked forum members to tell me how the so called "Platinum" Briggs engine is improved. No one has answered, and the Briggs brochure appears to be fluff and "badge" engineering. :2cents:.

The Briggs Platinum series is a small single cylinder vertical shaft that is named for Sears marketing.

Mar 23, 2014#32

M

Mad Mackie

Ric said:
There running any where from 5 to 7 Hp. The Fj180v is 6 hp residential unit and the FJ180V Kai a is a 6 hp Commercial unit. The Kai is what's on the Exmark 30" and the Toro Turf-master 30" and the 21"

I think that the FJ engines are fairly new to the Kawasaki line, I don't recall seeing them on the Kawpower site several years back when I was looking at repower engines for one of my machines and for several customers. I know that Kwai makes hand held equipment but I've never seen any in stock at any dealers that I have visited, nor heard anyone speak of them on any forums that I frequent.
Mad Mackie in CT:smile:

Mar 23, 2014#33

Ric

Mad Mackie said:
I think that the FJ engines are fairly new to the Kawasaki line, I don't recall seeing them on the Kawpower site several years back when I was looking at repower engines for one of my machines and for several customers. I know that Kwai makes hand held equipment but I've never seen any in stock at any dealers that I have visited, nor heard anyone speak of them on any forums that I frequent.
Mad Mackie in CT:smile:

I don't know what you consider fairly new but I've had my Turf-master for about a year and a half and they had them before that I believe. I in fact have one of the older models because the new ones have a primer bulb which mine doesn't, as I found out on another forum. Actually I think the KAI has been made since 2007 and maybe earlier. Left is the FJ 180V KAI Commercial, Right is the residential model FJ 180V

19881-engine-choices-fj180v_kai_3-29-12-png

Mar 23, 2014#34

M

Mad Mackie

Hi Ric,
I would think that the KAI model would have more HP as it is on a 30" deck self propelled machine. I bought a 21"Toro Super Recycler last spring for the pastor to use at the parsonage and I looked at the 30" machine, don't remember what it had for power. When I browse the engines on line I'm primarily looking at twins with more than 20 HP. I try to keep up with what is new and what is actually available for repowers, as most new production engines are not readily available or not available at all as a separate engine.
At this point in time I'm pleased with the 30 Briggs Professional Turf Series engine that I repowered my Scag Tiger Cub with. It has 110 hours since last March, but time will tell. Definitely a much better air filtration system than the 26 HP Briggs ELS engine that it replaced and with collection system bags hanging a few inched away from the engine, dust is a serious concern. Getting anxious to get spring cleanup going, I'm going to get this machine out of storage and my equipment back into my trailer.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Mar 24, 2014#35

Ric

Mad Mackie said:
Hi Ric,
I would think that the KAI model would have more HP as it is on a 30" deck self propelled machine. I bought a 21"Toro Super Recycler last spring for the pastor to use at the parsonage and I looked at the 30" machine, don't remember what it had for power. When I browse the engines on line I'm primarily looking at twins with more than 20 HP. I try to keep up with what is new and what is actually available for repowers, as most new production engines are not readily available or not available at all as a separate engine.
At this point in time I'm pleased with the 30 Briggs Professional Turf Series engine that I repowered my Scag Tiger Cub with. It has 110 hours since last March, but time will tell. Definitely a much better air filtration system than the 26 HP Briggs ELS engine that it replaced and with collection system bags hanging a few inched away from the engine, dust is a serious concern. Getting anxious to get spring cleanup going, I'm going to get this machine out of storage and my equipment back into my trailer.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

The FJ 180V KAI I believe is a 7hp but I wont swear to that. I said I'd never buy a briggs engine and I'd never buy the Turf series engine because from what I here it's nothing more than the old Intek engine with a larger air filter, fuel filter, and oil filter and that Intek was a piece of junk in my opinion. The problem with Briggs is you could take them and MTD remove the names, put them in a bag and shake them up and you couldn't tell the difference.

Mar 24, 2014#36

M

Mad Mackie

Hi Ric,
At 70 years of age and having spent 24 years in the military between 1961 and 1994, I did learn a few lessons and one of them is to never say never!!!
What is MTD?
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Mar 24, 2014#37

Ric

Mad Mackie said:
Hi Ric,
At 70 years of age and having spent 24 years in the military between 1961 and 1994, I did learn a few lessons and one of them is to never say never!!!
What is MTD?
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Modern Tool & Die Company. They have there fingers in everything from mower to parts.There a manufacturer of outdoor power equipment for the mass market, check these sites. I Think you'll get the drift.

MTD Products

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTD_Products

Mar 24, 2014#38

M

Mad Mackie

Hi Ric,
I know MTD and AYP stuff, I generally turn down servicing of these machines unless it is for a good friend!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Mar 24, 2014#39

exotion

Mad Mackie said:
Hi Ric,
I know MTD and AYP stuff, I generally turn down servicing of these machines unless it is for a good friend!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

I don't service anything for people I buy and sell equipment someone wants some work done I sell them a whole different machine with trade in value for there old one.

I am a fan of kawi engines they work hard parts are expensive tho. I like Honda engines a lot they are easy to work on cheap parts good power start easy. Briggs engines are easy to find parts simple to fix and even easier to replace entirely never used or worked on kohler so I don't know

Mar 25, 2014#40

T

tybilly

Mad Mackie said:
Hi Ric,
At 70 years of age and having spent 24 years in the military between 1961 and 1994, I did learn a few lessons and one of them is to never say never!!!
What is MTD?
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

unrelated question if no one minds,(spending time in the military during those yrs,) ive been wanting to find some of my dads military buddies,would you know how I can do this?i have all of his papers dating back from his application all through his retirement day,i want to hear some good stories about him.

Mar 25, 2014#41

M

Mad Mackie

tybilly said:
unrelated question if no one minds,(spending time in the military during those yrs,) ive been wanting to find some of my dads military buddies,would you know how I can do this?i have all of his papers dating back from his application all through his retirement day,i want to hear some good stories about him.

If in your dads paperwork a unit, ship, military company etc., is identified, you can go on line and search for associations that have been formed for servicemen to get together. I was US Navy submarine force in the 60s, and US Army/Army National Guard Aviation in the 80s and 90s. I belong to two specific submarine groups, Sub Vets, and three Army Aviation groups. I've connected with fellow servicemen that I hadn't chatted with since the 60s.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

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