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I just returned a new 18HP B&S Vanguard (came w/ no muffler) because I noticed rust spots on the exhaust valve stems and upon further examination with a borescope camera found internal rust and some cylinder scratches/scoring. One valve head had heavy rust, the remaining had either light rust or moderate rust spots. Also rust at the weldment points on the oil pickup tube. I would have been okay with the rust b/c the valve seats I could see looked clean and should have ended up fine, but I wasn't okay with the scratches.
I'm wondering how common scratches are in new engines. I couldn't tell if they were light or moderate, maybe they would be burnished out during break-in. I know I've taken down engines in the past that have had less scratches than these though. Anybody in the know have any thoughts?

FWIW, they didn't want to exchange/sell me another engine after this, they actually blocked my account from any further purchases from them, but I found a way to get another one ordered anyway. I'm hoping the next one will be in better shape but either way I'd like a feel for what I should put up with. I don't have much choice at this point b/c I can't find another engine at this price.

To me they don’t look that bad and I would probably just used the engine and check again after breakin. Just looks like someone was turning an unlubricated engine over by hand. That being said, I would agree with you in returning it and getting a different engine, even though they didn’t like it, was the way to go.

Rivets said:

To me they don’t look that bad and I would probably just used the engine and check again after breakin. Just looks like someone was turning an unlubricated engine over by hand. That being said, I would agree with you in returning it and getting a different engine, even though they didn’t like it, was the way to go.

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Thanks for the feedback. I was also concerned by the little "chunkies" kinda spattered around the cylinder and additional wear that might occur after startup, then be stuck with an iffy engine. This is a company that sells online through their website and ebay. I purchased through ebay b/c this engine was listed with free returns within 30 days, but no free returns via their website. Oh, and no returns if fuel or oil is added.
I submitted all my pics asking about either a return or a discount and they would only offer $100 off. They also stated that B&S test ran them and that the engines wouldn't be "spotless", this after submitting pictures showing rust and scoring. lol, sigh...

After reading your post, I have one suggestion for you and anyone else reading this thread. STOP USING THIS COMPANY. First, they don’t know what they are talking about, Briggs does not test run all there engines. Second, no returns after 30 days, or if oil or fuel is added, bullcocky. What do you do if there is a flaw in the engine. Third, selling returns with this warranty is someone trying to just make money with no customer service. Finally, please post the name of the company so others don’t fall into this trap. Edit: when you get the replacement, please take some pictures of the box and how it is packed. From those we can tell if it is an OEM shipped engine or a return from some other sources.

Rivets said:

After reading your post, I have one suggestion for you and anyone else reading this thread. STOP USING THIS COMPANY. First, they don’t know what they are talking about, Briggs does not test run all there engines. Second, no returns after 30 days, or if oil or fuel is added, bullcocky. What do you do if there is a flaw in the engine. Third, selling returns with this warranty is someone trying to just make money with no customer service. Finally, please post the name of the company so others don’t fall into this trap. Edit: when you get the replacement, please take some pictures of the box and how it is packed. From those we can tell if it is an OEM shipped engine or a return from some other sources.

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I would prefer to order from somewhere else, but $1200 is all I can justify spending. Next cheapest Vanguard I've seen is approximately $1600, not even sure if they are in stock. This engine is a replacement on an older DR wood chipper that I recently bought. The day after I purchased it, I discovered the engine is gonna die soon due to spalling on cylinder walls. Water got into the cylinders and rusted the rings. It started and seemed to run fine when I went to buy it, but it doesn't like starting when engine is hot. The seller is now ghosting me, allowing me to take the hit.
As far as B&S doing a test run, the B&S Vanguard tech support guy I spoke to the other day stated, yes, the engines (at least Vanguards) are started before leaving the factory and crankcases are then drained. I'm assuming they use an external fuel tank and connect directly to that at a test station as the fuel tank on the engine had absolutely no hint of any gasoline odor. I could tell that the engine had at least been started by looking at the spark plug tips when I did the borescope.
The first engine arrived in an original factory box. It had a large white sticker w/ the engine S/N and barcode from the factory. It had "Trust the Power" with "Vanguard" in large font underneath and I think an image of the engine. I'll post a picture of the box/packing when the second engine shows up.
As for the return policy, I've seen places over the years with the no returns once fueled up policy, so that's not that unusual to me. In fact, the dealer I recently purchased my Echo chainsaw from is that way. Actually they fuel them up and run it themselves before selling it. Any issues after the sale is a warranty claim. I figure they're trying to protect themselves from dumb and/or unscrupulous customers.
The B&S engine I returned is supposed to be looked at by their mechanics and a decision made whether it can be resold as new or will be sold at a discount. I was told that if they sold it at a discount, it would be from the local store so they could provide the warranty service.
The real problem I have with this company is that they initially tried to BS me with the "won't be pristine inside" statement, then ended up trying to refuse selling me a second engine. This tells me they had no problem selling this particular lot of engines, likely to also have rust, etc., to unsuspecting customers unlikely to notice or check for internal issues. Of course they knew I'd check and didn't want to risk having another return w/ them paying return shipping.

I forgot that I took a few pictures of the engine and box as proof of condition before the driver took it. I've attached them. The engine is secured in the box at the bottom with a thick piece of cardboard with a cutout for the crankcase to fit in. The top has a similar piece of cardboard that fits snugly over the gas tank.

I believe what you posted, but don’t believe what you were told. Many years ago, before I retired, I had the opportunity to tour a Briggs and Stratton manufacturing facility and can tell you that NOT all engines are tested before shipping. Saw engines go directly from the manufacturing line into boxes. There evidence you posted of scratches show that the engine was rotated in a dry condition. The packaging you posted does look like manufacturing line packaging. There are many ways to read warranty statements and yes once INSTALLED you need to go through Briggs warranty claims. I still stand behind My statement, look for another supplier, but understand your reasoning to stick with them at this time. Good Luck in your venture.

Riv, do you think those vertical lines maybe from honing, i.e. the hone was dragged out of the cylinder instead of collapsed or pulled out while rotating.. depending on how briggs does it.

I would find it hard to believe that they add the proper amount of oil to every vanguard engine then add some liquid fuel then test run for X minutes then drain that oil AND drain ALL the liquid fuel from the fuel system including the float bowl. I would believe they assemble the engine with assembly lube and then fire the engine on a mix of air and propane for a couple seconds then put it in a box and ship it.

I can't find another engine at this price

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this says it all.

No, those are too big, in my opinion.

Hammermechanicman said:

I would find it hard to believe that they add the proper amount of oil to every vanguard engine then add some liquid fuel then test run for X minutes then drain that oil AND drain ALL the liquid fuel from the fuel system including the float bowl. I would believe they assemble the engine with assembly lube and then fire the engine on a mix of air and propane for a couple seconds then put it in a box and ship it.

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According to what was put out to the dealers a few years back when they opened the Vanguard factory all engines are test run on the bench. The correct amount of oil is added to the engine, but the use a special fuel that is injected into a test port in the carb that is sealed off before boxing, The fuel fully evaporates leaving no residue. Basically run them on brake clean. The fuel never enters the fuel bowl. All employees at the Vanguard factory are required to be MST's also

From IL’s post it looks like things have changed since my visit. That said those scratches look like a dry piston score.

Rivets said:

I believe what you posted, but don’t believe what you were told. Many years ago, before I retired, I had the opportunity to tour a Briggs and Stratton manufacturing facility and can tell you that NOT all engines are tested before shipping. Saw engines go directly from the manufacturing line into boxes. There evidence you posted of scratches show that the engine was rotated in a dry condition. The packaging you posted does look like manufacturing line packaging. There are many ways to read warranty statements and yes once INSTALLED you need to go through Briggs warranty claims. I still stand behind My statement, look for another supplier, but understand your reasoning to stick with them at this time. Good Luck in your venture.

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Hmm. Not sure what to make of it at this point. Things change, they could have found a way to do short test runs with tech and process improvements in recent years. This engine had definitely been run, or at least the plugs were used as I could see that they had a slight whitish grey coating like you would see from the heat and by-products of combustion. As you can see from shot of the inside of the crankcase in my second post, there is residual oil hanging around still. And, the gas tank smelled only of plastic.
BTW, the company is Small Engine Warehouse.
The B&S guy said they sell tons of engines and that often they'll get stuff that ended up being surplus for an equipment manufacturer that planned a run of x number lawn tractors or generators for example, but things changed and they under produced, leaving them with a bunch of extra engines on hand that they would not be installing on equipment. SEW apparently buys them up and resells them. So who knows what the deal is, maybe somebody other than B&S ran it, maybe it's a return from a sneaky customer or something. I did find it interesting that when I spoke to the SEW customer support lady, to confirm return shipping details and I asked about securing the box to the mini pallet it came on, she mentioned that the box should have been stapled shut when I got it. There were no signs of any type of staple ever being used on this box, just two strips of clear packing tape across the top seam.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.

sgkent said:

this says it all.

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Yeah, kinda sucks being in this position. I can't really justify spending an extra $1200 to put an engine on the wood chipper that I paid too much for w/out the engine being bad. I would have been happy if all was well, but I got taken advantage of and that's that.
FWIW, engine was supposed to be new, the B&S tech I talked to said that based off of it's model and type number he thought it was an "oddball" engine, whatever that means, but probably overstock from an equipment manufacturer. It's DOM was Feb 2020.

ILENGINE said:

According to what was put out to the dealers a few years back when they opened the Vanguard factory all engines are test run on the bench. The correct amount of oil is added to the engine, but the use a special fuel that is injected into a test port in the carb that is sealed off before boxing, The fuel fully evaporates leaving no residue. Basically run them on brake clean. The fuel never enters the fuel bowl. All employees at the Vanguard factory are required to be MST's also

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That makes sense in looking at this video. Their process seems pretty robust and although they didn't mention test runs, I could see it being part of their process.

I'llTakeTwo said:

Yeah, kinda sucks being in this position. I can't really justify spending an extra $1200 to put an engine on the wood chipper that I paid too much for w/out the engine being bad. I would have been happy if all was well, but I got taken advantage of and that's that.
FWIW, engine was supposed to be new, the B&S tech I talked to said that based off of it's model and type number he thought it was an "oddball" engine, whatever that means, but probably overstock from an equipment manufacturer. It's DOM was Feb 2020.

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That engine so odd, that the dealer websites don't show any parts diagrams for that engine. The supposed diagram shows engine accessories catalog only. that entire line of Vanguards was discontinued a few years back. And there are a few select type numbers that were lack of a better term diagrams limited to the OEM that used them. Kind of like you won't find a parts diagram for a Kawasaki engine used on a JD on any US parts websites.

ILENGINE said:

According to what was put out to the dealers a few years back when they opened the Vanguard factory all engines are test run on the bench. The correct amount of oil is added to the engine, but the use a special fuel that is injected into a test port in the carb that is sealed off before boxing, The fuel fully evaporates leaving no residue. Basically run them on brake clean. The fuel never enters the fuel bowl. All employees at the Vanguard factory are required to be MST's also

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Apparently they need to fog their engines w/ a corrosion prohibitor at the end of the run.

I blew the photo up and could still see cross hatch thru them. They aren't moly rings so I would not expect a mirror finish. FWIW some race engine builders put rings in dry. I don't but some feel it helps the rings seat faster and better.

sgkent said:

I blew the photo up and could still see cross hatch thru them. They aren't moly rings so I would not expect a mirror finish. FWIW some race engine builders put rings in dry. I don't but some feel it helps the rings seat faster and better.

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I just tried zooming and just had noise and pixelation. I don't think resolution is great enough to see what you think you're seeing.

I'llTakeTwo said:

Apparently they need to fog their engines w/ a corrosion prohibitor at the end of the run.

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The problem is not using a rust prohibitor, the problem is the engine is not supposed to set on the shelf for 2 years before being used. I have OEM's that if the code date is 2 or more years before purchase date, you better be able to come up with a receipt.

ILENGINE said:

The problem is not using a rust prohibitor, the problem is the engine is not supposed to set on the shelf for 2 years before being used. I have OEM's that if the code date is 2 or more years before purchase date, you better be able to come up with a receipt.

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I wasn't expecting DOM of 2/2020. When I reported the problem to SEW and said the engine was "new old stock" vice new, their response was:

"It is incredibly rare that you would find an engine to purchase that is built the same year that you're purchasing. That might change a little going forward due to supply chain issues and the fact that every engine manufacturer is playing catch up for the foreseeable future. It was very normal for an engine to sit in a Briggs warehouse for 2-3 years before getting moved to distributors. All that surplus is pretty well gone now, but that is how they operated. A lot of companies would go out of business if they had to tag large portions of their inventory as "old stock" after 1 year or 2."

I'llTakeTwo said:

I wasn't expecting DOM of 2/2020. When I reported the problem to SEW and said the engine was "new old stock" vice new, their response was:

"It is incredibly rare that you would find an engine to purchase that is built the same year that you're purchasing. That might change a little going forward due to supply chain issues and the fact that every engine manufacturer is playing catch up for the foreseeable future. It was very normal for an engine to sit in a Briggs warehouse for 2-3 years before getting moved to distributors. All that surplus is pretty well gone now, but that is how they operated. A lot of companies would go out of business if they had to tag large portions of their inventory as "old stock" after 1 year or 2."

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And somebody doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. I have never received an engine that had set in a warehouse for more than about 6 months from DOM. And in some cases it would be a violation of EPA standards to even sell that engine if it had set in the warehouse for that long.

I was a machinist who bored and rebuilt engines for a living. Is it a steel piston ring on an aluminum cylinder? I can make marks on aluminum with a popsicle stick.

ILENGINE said:

And somebody doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. I have never received an engine that had set in a warehouse for more than about 6 months from DOM. And in some cases it would be a violation of EPA standards to even sell that engine if it had set in the warehouse for that long.

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I had to re-read their response, but given the verb tense they use, it seems they are talking about in the last two years with Covid having wreaked havoc with things. I can't imagine why any manufacturer would normally have their product sit in their own warehouse for a year.

sgkent said:

I was a machinist who bored and rebuilt engines for a living. Is it a steel piston ring on an aluminum cylinder? I can make marks on aluminum with a popsicle stick.

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It's a sleeved bore.

Okay, now I'm ticked. I left them a one star review last Thursday with a description of what happened. It's gone now, they've had it removed somehow. I had a browser opened on the review page that showed my review since I planned on checking to see if they would leave a response. I looked just now and there was a little insert under my review to the effect that the comment/review was no longer available because it was over 90 days old. What??? So I refreshed the page and the review is completely gone along with the notice. The one and six month review stats also changed to show zero negative reviews in those periods.
The seller is "Small Engine Warehouse". They have a .com website using that name as the URL, minus the spaces. Their ebay name is "small-engine-deals". I can't believe this...
Edit: This purchase was through their ebay site and the review was left there. So I figure they pulled some strings w/ ebay somehow. I need to try get someone at ebay and ask why they scrubbed it.

As I posted earlier, get a new supplier. I know the OP has no other choice at this time, but everyone else BEWARE.

My dad told me as a child, nothing is free, everything has a cost. And if someone sells products for a lot less than the general market, always go cautiously. Maybe at this point it might be worth checking compression to the factory specs and see how it compares. Lots of those ratings at places get managed. Usually all it does is get their attention for a moment. If they want you as a client they will work with you. If they don't care, then nothing will come of it.

I'llTakeTwo said:

Thanks for the feedback. I was also concerned by the little "chunkies" kinda spattered around the cylinder and additional wear that might occur after startup, then be stuck with an iffy engine. This is a company that sells online through their website and ebay. I purchased through ebay b/c this engine was listed with free returns within 30 days, but no free returns via their website. Oh, and no returns if fuel or oil is added.
I submitted all my pics asking about either a return or a discount and they would only offer $100 off. They also stated that B&S test ran them and that the engines wouldn't be "spotless", this after submitting pictures showing rust and scoring. lol, sigh...

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I doubt that B@S test ran them all. It would be almost impossible to get them that clean inside or did you remove all traces of oil? Scratches appear very minor. Does it burn much Oil? Get your $100 and run.

You should verify this, but it is my understanding that the company you are dealing with is not a Briggs dealer but a reseller of surplus engines that they have purchased as surplus from equipment manufacturers. The engines should be new but may be a few years old. That brings up a question of engine warranty because that and because if the engine is not replacing the exact same thing, an application review may not have been done by the engine manufacturer for the engine on that piece of equipment

Gord Baker said:

I doubt that B@S test ran them all. It would be almost impossible to get them that clean inside or did you remove all traces of oil? Scratches appear very minor. Does it burn much Oil? Get your $100 and run.

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It was run at the factory. Spark plugs and valve stems showed signs of combustion. Oil was in the crankcase. B&S Vanguard tech said they were run before shipping, ILEngine confirmed it.
Engine was returned, wasn't willing to pay $1100 for a "new" engine with internal rust and scoring. Maybe it would have been okay, maybe not.

TomW said:

You should verify this, but it is my understanding that the company you are dealing with is not a Briggs dealer but a reseller of surplus engines that they have purchased as surplus from equipment manufacturers. The engines should be new but may be a few years old. That brings up a question of engine warranty because that and because if the engine is not replacing the exact same thing, an application review may not have been done by the engine manufacturer for the engine on that piece of equipment

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Engine warranty length is a good point. It's OBE for me now, but I may call B&S Vanguard and ask when the warranty would start on one of these engines sitting on the shelf for two years.
SEW say they're an authorized dealer. Here's their "About Us" blurb:
"Family owned since 1974, Small Engine Warehouse is a global purchaser of small gasoline engines and outdoor power equipment parts. Initially serving the needs of our local Muncie, Indiana community, our company has grown to now ship to consumers in most US states daily, as well as serving repair shops and small manufacturers. In 2019, we acquired Landscaper Pro (www.landscaperpro.com) to allow us to better serve the broader maintenance needs of mowing professionals. As an authorized dealer for the major engine brands (Briggs & Stratton, Honda, Kawasaki, and Kohler), we can provide any of the sales, support, or repair needs of our customers."

I'llTakeTwo said:

Engine warranty length is a good point. It's OBE for me now, but I may call B&S Vanguard and ask when the warranty would start on one of these engines sitting on the shelf for two years.
SEW say they're an authorized dealer. Here's their "About Us" blurb:
"Family owned since 1974, Small Engine Warehouse is a global purchaser of small gasoline engines and outdoor power equipment parts. Initially serving the needs of our local Muncie, Indiana community, our company has grown to now ship to consumers in most US states daily, as well as serving repair shops and small manufacturers. In 2019, we acquired Landscaper Pro (www.landscaperpro.com) to allow us to better serve the broader maintenance needs of mowing professionals. As an authorized dealer for the major engine brands (Briggs & Stratton, Honda, Kawasaki, and Kohler), we can provide any of the sales, support, or repair needs of our customers."

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Never had any problems with engines from SEW and being I am in OZ warranty is on me because B & S Aust only warrant engines they have distributed themselves .

As for factory testing, don't know what B & S do but the local maker down here hooks propane up to the carb air inlet then runs the engine around 45 seconds on the propane with no oil in the engine as the assembly lube is more than good enough for around 5 minutes which is why it is used .

If the engine had been sitting for several years then I give them a squirt of lubricant down the plug hole before firing them up
I also crank the engine a couple of minutes without plugs to get the oil circulating .
Some new engines have been sitting here for 5 years or more before they get sold & never had a problem with any of them .

OTOH if a customer buys one then comes back for a "warranty" repair & I see dry bore damage then I tell them to go away.
Only ever sold 42 discreet engines and of them only 3 have come back
Two if the returns admitted running them dry the third denied it till I said I will take an oil sample and sent it out for testing as it was obvious the oil had never been run so the customer had put it in after the engine nipped up.
Luckily all just required a light hone & journal polish and some one needed new rods