CV15-41562 Ticking Noise?

[cruzenmike]

Hello All.

Went to use the John Deere today and after about 30 minutes of using it, the engine started making a loud ticking noise. The noise only happens once the engine is up to temperature. This has happened 3 times already but it is only after about a half an hour of mowing. If I shut the engine down for 10 minutes or so and then start back up, the noise is gone. Since the engine isn't completely cooled, it gets back up to temperature rather quick and the noise comes right back. Not only can I hear the ticking sound coming from the front of the engine, I can also hear that the engine sounds different (exhaust noise changes). I am not having any issues with the engine missing, sputtering, surging, stalling or backfiring, it's just making the ticking noise.

I looked around on the web and all things are pointing to a lifter issue. I am using Kohler synthetic 10w30 oil which was just changed about 3 (engine) hours ago. The engine has had a complete tune-up this summer and is not having any other issues.

What could be causing this problem and is it easily fixable?

Thanks guys!

Mike

 

[ILENGINE]

Sounds like either a lifter has collapsed or in some cases if they fail to rotate will wear a groove in the bottom of the lifter and will make a ticking noise and in some cases will sound like the rods are coming out of it. Have to remove the head on the vertical engines to get the lifters out.

 

[cruzenmike]

That is what I was afraid of. I just watched a video on the whole job and it does not appear too bad but if I am going through the process of replacing the lifter(s), what else should I be replacing once I am in there? Will I need to "adjust" anything on the head prior to the valve cover going back on?

I have read where some have had luck with simply running a solvent type product in the crankcase oil such as Seafoam or alike. Since the issue is only happening when the engine is hot, it is possible that it could just be a blockage that is occurring once the oil gets up to the proper viscosity?

 

[ILENGINE]

I would take the valve cover off and see if the push rods are tight like the lifters have them pushed up. If those are tight then I would suspect the flat spot on the lifter. I can't think of anything you would need to adjust on the head if you are replacing both lifters which I recommend. Other than also replace the head gasket exhaust and intake gaskets.

 

[Scrubcadet10]

Have you changed the oil recently?
I changed the oil and filter in a cv15 one time with, it was either pennzoil or valvoline 10w30... Lifters started ticking. Then I changed it out with Kohler brand 10W30, ticking stopped and it still running like a top.

 

[cruzenmike]

To answer the questions above:

Yes, I have changed the oil recently, twice in fact. Both times were with Genuine Kohler Full Synthetic 10w-30 oil and Kohler/Deere filter. The engine is 22 years old and never had a problem; maybe it was just time.

I decided to take the mower into the shop to have the work done. They said that depending on how things look they might just replace the whole head with the Deere Part number that includes the lifters and rods as well as all other parts except for the valve cover. If they get in there and the head looks good, which I am sure it will, they will just do the valves, lifters, rods and maybe springs. Either way I will be looking at $250-500 total depending on what they do. The parts are all warrantied for 12 months and labor for 90 days. I figure that with this machine being in such good condition, the deck being rebuilt, trans fluid changed and running strong, why not put a little into it.

Hopefully I will get it back in two weeks and it will be running like a champ again. I believe that I caught this problem early too as the issue would only occur when the engine was warmed up, so it's not like the failure was happening all the time. Rather fix it now before the whole engine goes.

 

[cruzenmike]

Just an update:

I got a call from the dealership yesterday regarding my mower and this is how the conversation went...

Matt: Hi Mike, this is Matt, I just wanted to let you know that the Technician looked at your mower and said that the sound you are hearing is normal.

Me: What do you mean? The ticking in the valve cover that happens after the engine has been running for 30 minutes is normal?

Matt: The Technician ran the mower for at least 30 minutes with a weight on the seat and he said that it sounds really good.

Me: Yeah, but the mower was not having this issue when I got it, and now all of a sudden it does.

Matt: We looked into the John Deere documents and there is a recommendation to replace the rods with solid ones.

Me: I thought that the issue I was experiencing was a collapsed lifter?

Matt: Well, if there is a problem with the lifter then there is most likely a problem with the cams as well. We would have to tear apart the entire engine to make sure that the cam doesn't have a groove or notch in it.

Me: But how does this explain a problem that your Technician said doesn't exist, when he stated that it is normal sounding and is running good?

Matt: It's hard to say but at the end of the day, it is going to cost you nearly $500 to diagnose and fix the issue if it involves getting into the bottom end of the engine. Given it's age, the Technician and I were discussing and it might not be worth it.

Me: I already had a conversation with Jay and I thought that this was simply going to be a head replacement with new lifters and rods. I was already quoted $500 to do the job and I was okay paying that. While Jay is no Technician, I am describing a well known issue with this engine and from the research I have done, this should more than fix my engine, especially since the problem isn't happening before the engine is up to temp.

Matt: Let me talk to the Technician again and see what he thinks we would need to do to figure out what is going on and get back to you.

Yesterday comes to a close and I do not hear anything from the dealership.

I call back today and this is my conversation:

Me: Hi Matt, just checking to see if you got a chance to discuss my mower with the Technician?

Matt: Yeah, I was just talking with him and he said that he would need to tear the whole thing down to figure out what is causing the problem.

Me: Again, I thought that this was just a lifter issue.

Matt: Well, if he is going to get the head off of the engine and replace the lifters and rods, then he would want to be sure that the cam is also in good condition.

Me: How much is this going to cost?

Matt: The Technician is putting a quote together right now to figure out how much it is going to cost to do all that needs to be done. I will be in touch once I have that back from him.

Me: Okay, talk to you soon.


WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON HERE?

I had been very specific in explaining what was going on with the mower, but the communication between the guy at the counter and the Technician must not be very clear, or the Technician doesn't know too much about what is going on.

Now, while I am no technician, I was quite certain that my issues was indeed a collapsed lifter or at the very least an issue of the oil pressure and not being able to keep the rod moving with the rockers. Since I am noticing a very distinctive change in exhaust sound, I assume that the issues is on the side of the exhaust valve. I am about ready to pick it up and just tear the top end down myself. I was just not wanting to get so involved in this myself, but I am starting to feel as if the dealership is lollygagging around!!!

Am I wrong in my thinking?

 

[ILENGINE]

If you have a lifter issue it sounds the same in that engine as it does in an automobile engine. The groove on the bottom of the lifter can have a more distinct clatter. I have never seen an issue with the cam on Kohler Command engines so my first thought is the dealer is fishing for more work. I know Kohler recommends camshaft inspection replacement with a lifter issues. But they also recommend replacing all the drive gears also while they are at it. So by Kohler recommendation they would need to change the camshaft, crankshaft, governor gear and oil pump gear.

 

[Hammermechanicman]

Just for grins you could change out the oil for conventional straight 30wt and see what happens. It won't hurt it with the temps we have right now. I have seen engines make valve train noise with thin oil.

 

[cruzenmike]

I just had the bottom end apart and it looked great in there. I wasn't specifically looking for anything but from what I could tell, the engine was nearly flawless in appearance. Even at 22 years old it would still have golden yellow oil at the changes. As for the dealership fishing for more work, you may be right. I have a feeling that they are trying to either get as much out of the job as they can, or they are trying to quote the job out of my budget so that they don't have to do the work. I asked about warranty on parts and labor so I am assuming with the age of the engine, they would be taking a greater risk in fixing it at this point.