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carburetor versus Electronic fuel injection, what is best?

#1

M

Mtn Scagg

kawasaki carburetor versus Electronic fuel injection, what is best?


#2

tom3

tom3

I like the KISS machines. Keep It Stupidly Simple. I'd take a carb over electronics and high pressure fuel pumps any day, especially in a lawn mower. But I generally buy for the long term.


#3

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Fuel injection will be better starting and fuel economy. When something goes wrong with the fuel injection good luck unless you have the manual for that engine covering the fuel injection system and the tools to do tests or you will be taking it to the dealer.


#4

R

RWlawnman

I'm looking at a TCII and the main thing I'm interested in it for is the fuel injection. I asked the dealer about it, and he claimed they haven't seen one in for repair. I don't know the manufacturing/design issues with using FI in smaller mower motors, but it's certainly not new technology at all. You probably can't buy a car that is less than 30 years old that doesn't have FI. It's also common on bigger outboard boat motors, I believe.

I think that FI in a mower will give more consistent throttle power, easier and more reliable starting, is supposed to provide as much as 20%-30% better fuel economy, and should be trouble free over all for longer than most carburetors will, maybe longer than the engine itself on average. Once they do fail, it's not an inexpensive or likely owner serviceable repair unless you are very good as a mechanic.

I guess the bottom line is nothing is perfect, but over all somethings are better, and I think FI is probably an improvement over carbs. I think we will eventually see FI as a standard feature on all mowers, at least the upper end ones. But I also think eventually we'll see all mowers will eventually be electric, and that could possibly happen before FI becomes common place.


#5

B

bertsmobile1

RWlawnman said:
I'm looking at a TCII and the main thing I'm interested in it for is the fuel injection. I asked the dealer about it, and he claimed they haven't seen one in for repair. I don't know the manufacturing/design issues with using FI in smaller mower motors, but it's certainly not new technology at all. You probably can't buy a car that is less than 30 years old that doesn't have FI. It's also common on bigger outboard boat motors, I believe.

I think that FI in a mower will give more consistent throttle power, easier and more reliable starting, is supposed to provide as much as 20%-30% better fuel economy, and should be trouble free over all for longer than most carburetors will, maybe longer than the engine itself on average. Once they do fail, it's not an inexpensive or likely owner serviceable repair unless you are very good as a mechanic.

I guess the bottom line is nothing is perfect, but over all somethings are better, and I think FI is probably an improvement over carbs. I think we will eventually see FI as a standard feature on all mowers, at least the upper end ones. But I also think eventually we'll see all mowers will eventually be electric, and that could possibly happen before FI becomes common place.
Click to expand...

Like the others have already said
Carbs = simple & easy to fix
EFI = complicated & expensive to fix.

Down side is , like motor vehicles there is no way a carburettor engine will be able to comply with the up comming EPA regualtion so it will be fuel injected or electric


#6

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

And lawnmower engine FI system are not OBD II type systems. Every manufacturer has their own software. And with the new mowers coming out with CAN BUS in the near future not only will you have the software for the engine but also the software for the lawnmower itself. EFI isn't as sensitive to fuel quality issues as carbs, but when things go wrong can be a bear to fix.


#7

StarTech

StarTech

Just like autos manufactures first came with EFI systems which were terrible all the tech had a very steep learning curve along with the systems poor designs.

I think it mostly the learning curve of the shop techs that makes them difficult to repair. Having good service manuals at hand helps a lot when they are used (read). With my background with my personal EFI automobiles it is a little for me to understand the EFI systems on small engines. Even techs with a lifetime of experience are being thrown a curve ball on these systems as it is all new to us.

The EFI systems that I repaired have improved a lot over the last few years. I remember the first Robin/Subaru engines where EFI was a total failure and they had to convert back to carburetors. Now the last few EFI Kawasaki engines that repaired was fairly easy to diagnose the problem. Due to compactness of today's equipment especially the ATVs accessing things can be problem though.

Now the Bobcat UTV gave me a fit as it was in limp mode. Very deep in the service manual was the solution as how it the system could be placed in limp mode. Turn out to be a simple parking brake adjustment. I wasn't experienced on Bobcat system so I depending input from other techs that were just as inexperienced as myself. They were suggesting things to try but none of them were fixing the problem. I finally brought and read the service manual fully that when I found the solution. I also found a partially clogged injector. I reckon the old saying "When all else fails read the blank (service) manual." still applies.:LOL:

Yes having the test equipment is very nice and on some of the equipment is nearly mandatory especially something like the Cam Am ATVs. I have manage so far to do with the diagnostic computer just by using troubleshooting skills but there will be a time that I will need it. Glad to hear they are now standardizing the systems on the small engine so an universal code reader can be used. This would make it make simpler for all of us in the field.

I just wondering when they are going start adding O2 sensors to the system as the systems I have work on so far don't have them.


#8

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Stihl has their M-tronic system and now the 500 FI saw. Unless you are a dealer good luck diagnosing problems. Many manufacturers are following the lead of Microsoft and John Deere, they own the software. There is an ongoing legal fight for the right to repair. Even if consumers win the right to repair when will scan tools ba available? At a price small shops can afford? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.


#9

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

StarTech said:
Just like autos manufactures first came with EFI systems which were terrible all the tech had a very steep learning curve along with the systems poor designs.

I think it mostly the learning curve of the shop techs that makes them difficult to repair. Having good service manuals at hand helps a lot when they are used (read). With my background with my personal EFI automobiles it is a little for me to understand the EFI systems on small engines. Even techs with a lifetime of experience are being thrown a curve ball on these systems as it is all new to us.

The EFI systems that I repaired have improved a lot over the last few years. I remember the first Robin/Subaru engines where EFI was a total failure and they had to convert back to carburetors. Now the last few EFI Kawasaki engines that repaired was fairly easy to diagnose the problem. Due to compactness of today's equipment especially the ATVs accessing things can be problem though.

Now the Bobcat UTV gave me a fit as it was in limp mode. Very deep in the service manual was the solution as how it the system could be placed in limp mode. Turn out to be a simple parking brake adjustment. I wasn't experienced on Bobcat system so I depending input from other techs that were just as inexperienced as myself. They were suggesting things to try but none of them were fixing the problem. I finally brought and read the service manual fully that when I found the solution. I also found a partially clogged injector. I reckon the old saying "When all else fails read the blank (service) manual." still applies.:LOL:

Yes having the test equipment is very nice and on some of the equipment is nearly mandatory especially something like the Cam Am ATVs. I have manage so far to do with the diagnostic computer just by using troubleshooting skills but there will be a time that I will need it. Glad to hear they are now standardizing the systems on the small engine so an universal code reader can be used. This would make it make simpler for all of us in the field.

I just wondering when they are going start adding O2 sensors to the system as the systems I have work on so far don't have them.
Click to expand...
Kohler has been using O2 sensors for close to 20 years starting with the CH26. the newer ones are 4 wire with heater circuit closed loop systems. I don't see a standardization of the systems right now. The best is a generac code reader for Kohler, Briggs, MTD, for retrieving the codes. But as of right now Kohler is moving to their 3rd version of the software with a new connector plug to work with the new electronic governor systems. And that system will not work with the CAN BUS system of the mower that it is one that required the mower manufacturer software. So there are two diagnostic plugs on some mowers. One for the engine and one for the mower.


#10

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

Hammermechanicman said:
Stihl has their M-tronic system and now the 500 FI saw. Unless you are a dealer good luck diagnosing problems. Many manufacturers are following the lead of Microsoft and John Deere, they own the software. There is an ongoing legal fight for the right to repair. Even if consumers win the right to repair when will scan tools ba available? At a price small shops can afford? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.
Click to expand...
Not only Stihl but Husqvarna, Kohler, Briggs, Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, MTD and I am sure I am missing some.


#11

StarTech

StarTech

ILENGINE said:
Kohler has been using O2 sensors for close to 20 years starting with the CH26. the newer ones are 4 wire with heater circuit closed loop systems. I don't see a standardization of the systems right now. The best is a generac code reader for Kohler, Briggs, MTD, for retrieving the codes. But as of right now Kohler is moving to their 3rd version of the software with a new connector plug to work with the new electronic governor systems. And that system will not work with the CAN BUS system of the mower that it is one that required the mower manufacturer software. So there are two diagnostic plugs on some mowers. One for the engine and one for the mower.
Click to expand...
Probably explains why I haven't seen the O2 sensors as every Kohler that I have worked on are non EFI systems. I have yet to see Briggs system even though I brought the Briggs tester setup but probably end up having to buy a newer system when one does show up.

All fun to deal with (not) Just unexpected additional expenses and equipment to keep with just keep working these machines. I am considering retiring when I get to 65 in four years and let the younger bunch of part replacers pull their hair out.


#12

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

StarTech said:
Probably explains why I haven't the O2 sensors as every Kohler that I have worked on are non EFI systems. I have yet to see Briggs system even though I brought the Briggs tester setup but probably end up having to buy a newer system when one does show up.

All fun to deal with (not) Just unexpected additional expenses and equipment to keep with just keep working these machines. I am considering retiring when I get to 65 in four years and let the younger bunch of part replacers pull their hair out.
Click to expand...
Looking hard at retiring at 62 in ten years.


#13

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

StarTech said:
Probably explains why I haven't the O2 sensors as every Kohler that I have worked on are non EFI systems. I have yet to see Briggs system even though I brought the Briggs tester setup but probably end up having to buy a newer system when one does show up.

All fun to deal with (not) Just unexpected additional expenses and equipment to keep with just keep working these machines. I am considering retiring when I get to 65 in four years and let the younger bunch of part replacers pull their hair out.
Click to expand...

I retired from the day job at 61. Took the mower shop pretty much full time because i enjoy it. Sooner or later it will get to the point i can't work on stuff and will retire again. Right now mower businees is down and my other business is bringing in the profit. Covid-19 has actually helped that business.


#14

R

RWlawnman

Interesting discussion here. It raises the question of who will be repairing mowers and other things in 10-20 Years. I'll bet if you took a survey of repair techs in all fields, the majority are 50+ years old, with a great number in their 60's even. In this country, we've put such an emphasis on the 4-year college degree, and made it so easy to get with student loans, that we don't have enough people learning trades anymore, like repair, even though those jobs will probably pay more on average than most 4-yr college grads will be able to make.

Mike Rowe has talked about this a lot. The whole emphasis on "work smart" over "hard work" has done our country a disservice. It's actually led to a whole class of young people who have completely dropped out of the workforce. About 40 million of them. Not unemployed people, there are actually less of those (or were before the virus hit) because they are actively looking for jobs. The 40 million is the number of working age people who don't have a job and aren't looking for one, because working is hard, I guess.


#15

StarTech

StarTech

When I was first layoff due corporate downsizing I was so over qualified no would hire me. I end working the scrape metal business for nearly until the economy turn South and every Ton, Dick, and Harry got into it as the prices were fairly high. It just too competitive and some of the guys were actually having fist fights over a piece of metal. Then I finally decide to take lawn care equipment repairs and have been at it since 2009. The work is that hard but there sure enough headaches otherwise.

I had a young diesel mechanic trying to compete against me by telling customers that he knew everything. I and some my customer definitely don't think so. He screwed up more than he fixed as he was very mechanical inclined. And definitely not many mower mechanics are very good with the electrical systems either.

At the current rate of us older techs retiring and the new tech that a computer can tell everything it is going to be mess later as much of equipment will buy it, use it, and buy new again when broken.


#16

R

RWlawnman

StarTech said:
....
At the current rate of us older techs retiring and the new tech that a computer can tell everything it is going to be mess later as much of equipment will buy it, use it, and buy new again when broken.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if that wouldn't be the exact out come of the industry as the mowers become more computerized and components less repairable, just replaceable. It's kinda of easier to repair in one sense, rather than fixing components and systems, you just replace them. Everything will become more modular, maybe? Either way, as repairs become more expensive, it becomes cheaper to make a new mower than repair an old one. So it may be the rise of the big box stores, that offer no repair service at all, and the eventual decline of the repair shop all together. Seems to be the case with most other appliances.


#17

B

bertsmobile1

Long term petrol powered mowers, like petrol powered cars will vanish off the face of the earth.
It is just a matter of time.
I retired at 50 to do wedding cars as a retirement income producer to supliment the share portfolio returns
The GFC proved I was a better transport manager than than financial manager so I bumped up the car fleet
Then the government legislated the car business out of business.
Back into industry as a transport / warehouse manager .
Turned 60 & contract not renewed ( too old ) by which time good transport managers were a dime a dozen .
So ended up buying the mower service run.
Right now there is a big seasonal shortage of competiant technicians but nearly all of the mower shops are run by accountants because they are all owned by accountants .
Thus none will take on apprentices because they can not make the KPI of $ 30/Hr from them thus will not meeet their KPI so not qualify for their extra bonus .
So we are a dieing breed and it is a dieing industry unless politician crawl out of the pockets of factory owners & importers which will never happen as the money has corrupted the political system so much, nothing short of a revolution will change it .
Thus forcing industry to make long life , repairable consumer durable products sustainably will not happen because the manufacturers need 100% of the profits to satisify the greed of the shareholders .
Share holders have gone from a passive source of funding for things that the banks considered too risky or seasonal where interest in the out of season costs would wipe out the profits to agtessive domineering money grubbers who dictate to the management how much dividend they must receive ather than accepting a percentage of the profits, if any.

What the British East India company did to India , Pension funds & hedge funds will do to the USA & Australia


#18

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

It's not if your mower breaks down, it's WHEN.
and when it's a fuel problem, Are you, the owner, going to be able to troubleshoot the EFI system?
IMO,Carbs are much easier to troubleshoot and work on, plus I believe EFI requires use our of a ECU to control it, another computer, and another thing to go wrong.

Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.


#19

StarTech

StarTech

Yes it is just more things to go wrong. Even JD with ECUs on ZTRs with carb engines have ECUs failures. I done repair two this year alone. Those ZTRs ECUs were quite simple but expensive. I did a triple bypass on both units. This something that most likely can't be done with the EFI ECUs.


#20

cpurvis

cpurvis

Fuel injection? On a diesel, yes, but not electronic. As long as they're fed clean fuel, the MTBF is way up there. Almost bulletproof.

On a small gas engine? I hope to make it through all my mowing days without ever owning one. On a chain saw?? I wouldn't take one if they paid me.


#21

R

RWlawnman

I purchased a mower today (Gravely) and talked with the dealer about which version to order. The model I wanted had 3 versions, one with a Kawasaki, one with Kohler, and another with Kohler with EFI. The Kawasaki & Kohler/EFI were the same price. She said the only one of the 3 they don't recommend was the Kohler/EFI. I asked why, and she said they are very expensive to repair, the others are easy and not expensive to fix. I guess it makes sense to keep with the tried and true. I didn't ask her if they've had many of the EFI models in to repair, but I presume they have seen some. The Scag dealer I talked to, who tried to sell me an EFI model, said they haven't had any in for repair. So maybe that's the difference, if they had to repair one, they wouldn't try to sell them. That's why I like the Gravely dealer, they are pretty straight up and probably more concerned with me as a customer down the line rather than what they can sell me right now. Not that the Scag dealer (in my area) is bad in any way, but I just feel like the Gravely dealer is more straight forward, personal, and willing to give an opinion, rather than just tell me how great everything they sell is.


#22

tom3

tom3

And maybe last but not least, a carb is much more tolerant of lesser quality gas. That fuel injector demands super clean fuel or it's done for. How many average home owners are particular about their gas cans, and even refilling the tank on the mower as cleanly as possible? A fuel pump and filter are a big help but we've all seen what gets by that and the results of old gas in the spring time.


#23

M

Mowergal

Interesting discussion... A year ago I bought a new Turf Tiger II with 61" deck. I was in a hurry as my old Scag needed repairs and it was late Spring and the grass was growing. The local dealer only had the 26 hp Kohler EFI on the lot. I was reluctant to have anything potentially more complicated than what I had, a 17-yr old Turf Tiger with Kohler carburetor. I never had a problem with it. Well, I went ahead with the EFI, and I have to say, it does get better gas mileage and starts easier, and it is nice not to have to fool with the choke and remember to turn it off after it gets running... But, now this discussion raises my concern about potential expensive repairs... As I originally thought possible.

On another note, the Turf Tiger II with 61" deck and larger, is now powered by Briggs & Stratton 31 hp and up carburetor engines... And the prices are about 20% higher too!


#24

R

RWlawnman

Mowergal said:
Interesting discussion... A year ago I bought a new Turf Tiger II with 61" deck. I was in a hurry as my old Scag needed repairs and it was late Spring and the grass was growing. The local dealer only had the 26 hp Kohler EFI on the lot. I was reluctant to have anything potentially more complicated than what I had, a 17-yr old Turf Tiger with Kohler carburetor. I never had a problem with it. Well, I went ahead with the EFI, and I have to say, it does get better gas mileage and starts easier, and it is nice not to have to fool with the choke and remember to turn it off after it gets running... But, now this discussion raises my concern about potential expensive repairs... As I originally thought possible.

On another note, the Turf Tiger II with 61" deck and larger, is now powered by Briggs & Stratton 31 hp and up carburetor engines... And the prices are about 20% higher too!
Click to expand...

I would expect you'll have a long time before that EFI gives you trouble, but as others have stated, be sure you don't use any old gas in it.

As for the new TTII with the B&S carbed engines, that's very interesting. Seems like B&S isn't that highly regarded in this type of equipment, I'm surprised Scag would put it in their flagship model, and that they got away form EFI on it is very interesting. Maybe B&S has done some improving to their engines to make them more competitive. That would be a good thing, I grew up with B&S as THE engine to have on your lawn mower. Of course, I'm talking about the little push mowers we used as kids.


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