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Voltage drops from ~13 to 6 when I turn the key to start the Toro Recycler lawnmower. Sounds like it is just barely turning over. Pull-starts fine.

Is this a bad battery? It's a few years old.

(Sorry for cross-post mods.)

Jefe...
have you checked all your battery cable connections, are you measuring this large voltage drop on the battery? If so try to give it a full charge, check the water level first, If this is a serviceable battery...
You can't expect much more than 2 to 3 years from the typical lawn mower battery, so there may be a new battery in your near future...
:smile:KennyV

KennyV said:

Jefe...
have you checked all your battery cable connections, are you measuring this large voltage drop on the battery? If so try to give it a full charge, check the water level first, If this is a serviceable battery...
You can't expect much more than 2 to 3 years from the typical lawn mower battery, so there may be a new battery in your near future...
:smile:KennyV

Click to expand...

Thanks Kenny. Yes, connections are all good as evidenced by the weak attempts of the engine to turn over. I measured it at charging plug and also at the battery terminals. It is not a serviceable battery.

Can you confirm whether that an excessive voltage drop?

Jefe said:

Can you confirm whether that an excessive voltage drop?

Click to expand...

Way too much of a drop... 6 volts is not going to do it.. Were you able to put a charger on it?
:smile:KennyV

Going from 13 to 6, sounds like a bad plate or two, and you just aren't getting the amps......which would mean a bad battery. The initial charge of 13 sounds good, doesn't it, Kenny?

twall said:

Going from 13 to 6, sounds like a bad plate or two, and you just aren't getting the amps......which would mean a bad battery. The initial charge of 13 sounds good, doesn't it, Kenny?

Click to expand...

Yes... like I was saying ... there may be a new battery in your near future... :smile:KennyV

batteries seem to me to be something you just need to replace every couple years. I Haven't done it yet but have considered putting a battery tender on in the off season. This might get more than 2-3 yrs out of a battery

KennyV said:

Way too much of a drop... 6 volts is not going to do it.. Were you able to put a charger on it?
:smile:KennyV

Click to expand...

Yes. The battery was stored for the winter and I had re-installed it and charged it overnight prior to trying to start the mower with it.

When the battery drops volts as you discribe, the battery is usually the problem.

:wink::biggrin::smile::confused2:

Jefe said:

Yes. The battery was stored for the winter and I had re-installed it and charged it overnight prior to trying to start the mower with it.

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Well ALOHA FROM HAWAII! MY NAME IS KALAUKIA37. I AM A NEW MEMBER AS OF TWO DAYS AGO. I LIVE ON OAHU IN HAWAII. I HAVE A J.D. 42 115 AUTOMATIC, 2006 YEAR. I HAVE FOUND OUT THAT IF YOU BUY AN INTERSTATE BATTERY WITH THE HIGHEST AMPS POSSIBLE, AND THAT YOU KEEP IT ON A VERY SMALL TRINCLE CHARGER THAT CANBE BOUGHT FROM NAPA FOR ABOUT $39.00, IT WILL PAY FOR ITS SELF FOREVER. IT WILL KEEP YOUR BATTERY FULLY CHARGED FOREVER. YOUR BATTERY B
UYING DAYS ARE OVER.

YOU MAY ALSO USE IT IN YOUR CARS, BOATS, SNOWMACHINES, ANYTHING. IT WILL PAY FOR ITS SELF IN ONE SEASON.

HERE IN HAWAII WE DONOT PUT OUR EQUIPTMENT IN STORAGE, WE USE THEM ALL YEAR LONG.
WELL MAY YOU USE THIS INFO. IN GOOD HEALTH AND GOD BLRSS YOU ALL!

kalaukia37 said:

:wink::biggrin::smile::confused2:Well ALOHA FROM HAWAII! MY NAME IS KALAUKIA37. I AM A NEW MEMBER AS OF TWO DAYS AGO. Welcome
IT WILL KEEP YOUR BATTERY FULLY CHARGED FOREVER. Longer, Yes Forever, NO !

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Please turn off all caps !

There have been a number of posts on various forums about restoring batteries with a water/Epsom salt mix....I tried a couple last week and they seem to be holding up so far.....

BKBrown said:

Please turn off all caps !

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Your right again...
There is no better way to put it...
Please turn off all caps !
:smile:KennyV

So, I replaced the battery and charged the new one appropriately. The engine turns over WEAKLY, but doesn't really want to start - it will eventually, just barely. With a brand new charged battery, the voltage DROPS from 13.5 to 6 V while turning the key.

Would a bad starter cause a voltage drop?

Probably a bad starter....could also be a bad connection or bad ground.....Take it off and test it on the bench

poncho62 said:

Probably a bad starter....could also be a bad connection or bad ground.....Take it off and test it on the bench

Click to expand...

How do I test the starter?

Jefe said:

How do I test the starter?

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He's talking about clamping it in a vise, hooking jumper cables from a good battery to it to see if it spins. Black (-) to the body, power (+) to the bolt that the wire attaches to.

But, I've found this is not always a good test. If your armature has bad spots, it'll spin just fine on the bench, but once you put a load to it, not much happens. Once it gets to the bad spot in the armature, it'll go dead - and remain that way until you move it (turn the motor by hand a bit).

Jefe said:

So, I replaced the battery and charged the new one appropriately. The engine turns over WEAKLY, but doesn't really want to start - it will eventually, just barely. With a brand new charged battery, the voltage DROPS from 13.5 to 6 V while turning the key.

Would a bad starter cause a voltage drop?

Click to expand...

If your dropping over half of your available voltage ... My first place to look is a bad cable, either the positive OR the negative.. the starter solenoid could be about to fail or any of the connections that the battery cables attach.
You can check all of them by taking a 'good' set of heavy jumper cables and go directly from the battery to the starter...
Hook the negative to the engine or the mounting bolt for the starter...
then carefully contact the positive jumper cable to the large terminal on the starter...
This will spin the engine, (so be careful)...
If it turns over exactly as bad as it did using the factory wiring ... THEN you have a bad starter...
If it spins it as it should then you have one of the earlier mentioned problems...
I doubt it is the starter... if you were dropping all that voltage in the starter it would be smoking hot within 15 to 20 seconds... but if you check it with jumper cables Directly to the starter, you will know immediately what the problem is... :smile:KennyV

Kenny hit 2500

Hey Kenny! Way to go, 2500 posts, and all good ones at that!

Good Job Kenny ! :thumbsup: Always good advice ! :biggrin:

I would add that it might not be the cables, but could be just the cable connections at either or both ends. I've found corroded connections in places where you might not expect them and that looked fine until taken apart.

I've been on here nearly as long as the Forum has been active and have nowhere near your # of posts !

Aloha Guys; I agree with Kenny, If it is the cables need either tighten, them plus I also make sure that they have some kind of cleaner or preventer material like maybe a light coat of Petroleum Jelly rubbed on the connections, so the they will not get any kind of corrosion on them. I ALSO USE A VERY SMALL TRINCLE BATER MAINTER THAT KEEPS ALL MY CARS, TRUCK, AND LAWNMOWER, BATTERY ALWAYS UP TO PAR. You can keep it on, or alternate it to different machines. this is really worth, $40.
God bless You ALL! Bob.

RobertBrown said:

2500 posts, and all good ones at that!

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BKBrown said:

Always good advice ! :biggrin:

I would add that it might not be the cables, but could be just the cable connections at either or both ends. I've found corroded connections in places where you might not expect them and that looked fine until taken apart.

I've been on here nearly as long as the Forum has been active and have nowhere near your # of posts !

Click to expand...

Wow ... once again , I didn't notice, I usually try to notice new names or first posts... but my post count like my cell phone number, I so rarely look at it so I usually am not sure what it is... Ha I'll try to notice as 3k comes up...
Thanks for the kind words, guys... I don't know how good my advice is ... I generally post what I would do, or have done, and things that have worked for me..

Ive had quite a few bad battery cable ends, eyes that get acid inside and corrode bad, they look great on the outside but will not conduct much electricity...

Hope we are all around & that we have doubled our membership by this time next year... :smile:KennyV

Thanks for all the suggestions guys; here's the latest:

Pulled off starter and connected it directly the the battery via jumper cables.; it spins/runs fine. While testing this way I had a voltage drop from 13.5 to 8.

Next I put the starter back on the mower (under load?) and again connected the starter directly to the battery via jumper cables. Again a voltage drop from 13.5 to 8 while the engine is "turning over".

The mower will barely start most of the time, but it just sounds so weak trying to start. I also noticed that when the starter is installed and the key is turned, the starter gear drops down into the flywheel (?) to start the engine, but sometimes it will spring back up and keep spinning (in mid-air; not engaged) even though the engine didn't start.

Thoughts?

If you're getting that much of a voltage drop with a NEW, charged battery while bench testing the starter under no-load conditions, it sounds as if you've located the problem area-(starter, not battery). I'll bet that your old battery was/is still strong enough to start the engine-if the starter wasn't under-utilizing the energy that's getting to it.

A local independent shop here told me that their number 1 cause of starter-related problems in vertically mounted Briggs-type starters positioned BELOW the ring gear is that they slowly get clogged up with debris, due to the fact that dusty crud will work it's way into the starter and that almost no one seems willing to simply take the starter off and blow out the crud once in a while as a preventative measure-they wait until the engine gets hard to turn over. (This happened to me a few years after I got our first garden tractor with a self-starter. I took it apart, cleaned it out and relubed it.) From your description, yours would seem to be mounted above the ring gear..... In any case, if enough crud works it's way into the starter, it can compromise the effectiveness of the starter shaft's lubrication.

If your starter is requiring that much energy to turn (as shown by the voltage drop) and the starter drive gear is moving up, down or sideways back out of engagement while the starter is still spinning, that may just be a reflection of the starter's high internal resistance (caused by an actual electrical fault or by a physical reason-like insufficient lubrication to the starter motor's shaft ends) of the starter reducing the starter's drive rotational speed enough that it's insufficient to maintain the speed necessary to maintain the (usually) centrifical-weight driven starter drive in engagement.

My suggestion, if you have the inclination, is to first attempt to get SOME lubrication onto at least one end of the starter's shaft before taking the starter apart. A light weight oil or even squirt of WD40 aimed towards the shaft ends will work as lubrication TEMPORARILY. OBVIOUSLY try lubing the externally accessible end first.

I and others have no hesitation to dissasemble a starter, but many people will not attempt to take a starter apart. If you're one of those you can (usually) back off the through bolt nuts ONLY a couple of turns and then work a thin blade into the space next to the sheetmetal cover of the starter to get enough access to somewhat effectively blow out the starter with an airblast from an air compressor or to spray a light lube TOWARDS the shaft end-without getting the brushes out of position, which would require dissasembly of that end of the starter to reposition. (A more effective way to attempt to lube the hidden shaft end is to drill a tiny hole in the end cap, but that hole will have to be sealed up later, and drilling it could potentially damage the bearing.... )

If, after the oil treatment, it spins more easily (with much less of a voltage drop), the problem is liable to be simple, CURABLE lack of lubrication. (But someone wil have to take the starter apart to do a decent job of relubing it.) If the temporary lub attempt doesn't make much of a difference, then it's possible that the starter's (usually) oil-impregnated bushings or bearings are so dried out that they may have actually worn enough to be allowing the starter shaft to be off center. To test for that possibility, try repositioning the starter in a vise and try it in various positions-it will likely spin faster one one position than in another. If so, then it's probably time to look for a replacement starter.

For reference, I'm still on the original a starter 14 years in using our rider at least 9 months a year, although I've replaced the plastic starter drive gear 3 times. I'm on the 3rd battery now, but the second one I pulled on general maintenance principles last year to use as a spare while it was still able to start the 17.5hp engine. On that note, I recommend that people ALWAYS get the biggest amperage commonly available battery that will fit in your machine (car/truck/tractor etc.) the cost difference is usually not very much and frequently even an older but weakened higher capacity battery will have sufficient capacity remaining to start an engine long after a similarly weakened but lower capacity one.

Also it's not a great idea to keep your battery on a cheap but "dumb" trickle charger endlessly, especially over a long off-season (a dumb charger is one that puts out a steady voltage no matter how long it is attached, without tapering the charge as the battery gets more fully charged). Most dunb chargers will be maintaining the battery in a slightly OVERcharged condition, which definitely lessens it's effective life. A "smart" charger tapers or stops the charging completely when the battery is fully charged.

Jefe said:

Thanks for all the suggestions guys; here's the latest:

Pulled off starter and connected it directly the the battery via jumper cables.; it spins/runs fine. While testing this way I had a voltage drop from 13.5 to 8.

Next I put the starter back on the mower (under load?) and again connected the starter directly to the battery via jumper cables. Again a voltage drop from 13.5 to 8 while the engine is "turning over".

The mower will barely start most of the time, but it just sounds so weak trying to start. I also noticed that when the starter is installed and the key is turned, the starter gear drops down into the flywheel (?) to start the engine, but sometimes it will spring back up and keep spinning (in mid-air; not engaged) even though the engine didn't start.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I,ve seen a similiar problem as described in this thread to be caused by one of the safety switches..(seat switch, pto switch etc) ..Depends on how your machine is wired it could cause either a click..click sound or a slow starter). The safety switches sometimes build up a resistance over time (dirty or weak contact) thus causing a voltage drop accross the switch. Happened on my JD F525 caused by the brake switch. Just an idea to think about.

If he is measuring a large voltage drop at the battery terminals themselves, then poor connections (cables, switches, etc.) are definitely *not* the problem. It has to be either a weak battery or the starter is pulling too much current.

I have seen when the connecting rod has started to loose metal to the crank ( too little oil at one time) the resistance to turn the engine over puts too much of a load on the engine and won't crank over.

How old is your engine? has it run on low , dirty oil? I have found this to be the cause of slow turn over.

Sorry for the delay on following up. This is my mother's mower and she doesn't have internet and lives a way from me...

Here's the update:
I took the starter off and apart, cleaned it out by spraying it with air sensor cleaner, then lubricated it.

Before:

Thanks Goodolboydws for the detailed comments. The starter will spin, and did start the motor, but I am afraid the problem may be more involved than I thought...

The latest is that my mother said the mower is using a lot of oil and there is oil all over the deck. Here's a picture:



I completely degreased and washed it before she used it, and this is after maybe the 3rd use of the season.

I let it run to see where the oil was coming from. I do not think it is the fill tube or the breather (?). While it was running I noticed the engine block itself was HOT. I don't know how hot it should be while running, but I could only touch it for a split second before I would get burnt. I also noticed some melted plastic around the control for the kill switch:



It was such a mess, I sprayed it down with degreaser and rinsed it off. I will recheck it again tonight while running to see if I can tell for sure where the oil is coming from.

Without saying for sure, I think it might be from here:



BTW, this is a fairly new mower - maybe 4 years old or so.

Thoughts?

Before seeing your latest post, I was going to agree with Peva, that the starter is drawing way too much current, and suggest that you replace it (it could have shorted coils due to overheating from running the starter too long / too hard in the past, etc, and now the resistance of the coil is too low and it's too inefficient to spin the motor. It might be possible to measure the resistance of the motor compared to a new one, to verify that it's faulty before you buy the replacement. I have no idea what it should be, you'll probably need to take an ohm-meter with you to the parts shop unless you can find someone with a similar unit).

The fact that the solenoid cant keep the starter engaged with the flywheel confirms that either the battery is faulty (not likely since you replaced it) or the starter motor is faulty and drawing more current than the system is designed for.

The fact that it pull starts fine made me doubt that it's due to an excessive load from the gas-motor.

But now with all the oil all over the place (and therefore the possibility of low/no oil in the gas motor), it raises more questions.

Good luck!
Bruce.

Find the oil leak....
clean it up spotless, blow or sun dry... then dust it with talc or flour ....run the thing till you start to see where the oil is ...
You should have no oil leaks... you have not got into anything that will cause a leak, so my first thought is you may have tilted it over and allowed oil to get into an area that normally did not have standing oil in it... then when it was used it pushed that oil out... A little oil looks like a lot when it is all over and covered with dirt &grass.
If you are not already using synthetic oil... switch to it, it will give you a bit better lube...
I take it that the starter is now working?
:smile:KennyV

Thanks Kenny. The starter will spin enough to start the mower but it still sounds weak to me - but I never really used this mower much so I don't know for sure. I think the oil leak is coming from the breather but I will post a new thread with a link to this one.

poncho62 said:

There have been a number of posts on various forums about restoring batteries with a water/Epsom salt mix....I tried a couple last week and they seem to be holding up so far.....

Click to expand...

If you can get the fill caps off and dump the content into a container, then add the water/salt solution, refill with acid, and trickle charge it should work. (Unless a cell or cells have shorted internally.)