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Ariens Sport Zoom 1232 Electrical Issue

#1

mbratch

mbratch

Hello

I have an Ariens Sport Zoom 1232 that has served me well for a few years. Recently, it was getting difficult to start (it would crank slowly if at all and finally go). I bought a new battery a year or two ago and it improved. But now this year, it won't start at all. It will sometimes give one turn of the engine and that's it. I've had everything apart and checked everything in the wiring. My main suspicion, based upon behavior, not on a measurement, is that when the key is in the start position, there's something else drawing down current and starving the starter. I've looked at the wiring diagrams and measured things but can't figure out what it is. I replaced the solenoid with no change in results.

I took out the battery and tried to diagnose for a short. When I connect an ohmmeter to the battery leads (battery not installed) and turn the key to start, the resistance is about 4.5 ohms, which I think is expected since it runs through the solenoid coil and the starter. But I'm not absolutely sure if that's right as the maintenance guide only provides assistance if you're not getting voltage. My problem is that something appears to be shorting somewhere. I did find the 25A fuse that's connected in the red wire path melted (!) when I was going through stuff today.

I hooked it up to a good, known 12V car battery and it turned maybe 4 or 5 times and then stopped and was yielding the same results as with the original battery.

I measured the coil connections on the relay, and they're not shorted (I think they measured some 10's of ohms if I recall).

My two theories are (1) the starter has a problem where it turns, but it's got either brush or coil issues in which it draws too much current (partially shorted), or (2) something else in the starter circuit shorted (although I can't detect it with a meter).

Anyway, I'm at a loss now. I have no idea what else to check. I would send it into a local service agent, but honestly, for a problem like this, I really don't have confidence in their knowledge. If anyone has some suggestions or ideas, I'd like to hear them. Thank you.


#2

B

bertsmobile1

mbratch said:
Hello

I have an Ariens Sport Zoom 1232 that has served me well for a few years. Recently, it was getting difficult to start (it would crank slowly if at all and finally go). I bought a new battery a year or two ago and it improved. But now this year, it won't start at all. It will sometimes give one turn of the engine and that's it. I've had everything apart and checked everything in the wiring. My main suspicion, based upon behavior, not on a measurement, is that when the key is in the start position, there's something else drawing down current and starving the starter. I've looked at the wiring diagrams and measured things but can't figure out what it is. I replaced the solenoid with no change in results.

I took out the battery and tried to diagnose for a short. When I connect an ohmmeter to the battery leads (battery not installed) and turn the key to start, the resistance is about 4.5 ohms, which I think is expected since it runs through the solenoid coil and the starter. But I'm not absolutely sure if that's right as the maintenance guide only provides assistance if you're not getting voltage. My problem is that something appears to be shorting somewhere. I did find the 25A fuse that's connected in the red wire path melted (!) when I was going through stuff today.

I hooked it up to a good, known 12V car battery and it turned maybe 4 or 5 times and then stopped and was yielding the same results as with the original battery.

I measured the coil connections on the relay, and they're not shorted (I think they measured some 10's of ohms if I recall).

My two theories are (1) the starter has a problem where it turns, but it's got either brush or coil issues in which it draws too much current (partially shorted), or (2) something else in the starter circuit shorted (although I can't detect it with a meter).

Anyway, I'm at a loss now. I have no idea what else to check. I would send it into a local service agent, but honestly, for a problem like this, I really don't have confidence in their knowledge. If anyone has some suggestions or ideas, I'd like to hear them. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Remove the spark plug & try again.
If the starter turns freely then your problem is the valve lash and not electrical.
I get a dozen or more every year, owners repalces the "bad " battery then the "bad " switch then the "bad" coil followed by the "bad" solenoid and $ 300 latter finally brings it in for a service and is gob smacked when I adjust the tappets & replace the rocker cover gasket ( I never reuse one ) relieve them of $ 60 and off they go, cranky for having wasted $ 300 and 10 hours of their time, suffering the inconvienence for several years because they just can't manage to read the owners manual.


#3

mbratch

mbratch

bertsmobile1 said:
Remove the spark plug & try again.
If the starter turns freely then your problem is the valve lash and not electrical.
I get a dozen or more every year, owners repalces the "bad " battery then the "bad " switch then the "bad" coil followed by the "bad" solenoid and $ 300 latter finally brings it in for a service and is gob smacked when I adjust the tappets & replace the rocker cover gasket ( I never reuse one ) relieve them of $ 60 and off they go, cranky for having wasted $ 300 and 10 hours of their time, suffering the inconvienence for several years because they just can't manage to read the owners manual.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the reply. You're obviously more knowledgeable than the folk I have access to here. That's the first I received that recommendation. I haven't gotten deep into it money-wise, just a few hours of education. :) I'll report back on results.

[moments later...]

Well, it turns quite freely with the spark plug removed. So I'm off to learn how to adjust the valve lash. Thanks!


#4

mbratch

mbratch

I adjusted the valve lash, per the specifications for the B&S engine I have. And the symptoms persist exactly as before. :-/


#5

B

bertsmobile1

Did you try it without the spark plug in or just jump in and adjust the valve lash ?

If you did what was the results ?
Can you turn the engine over by hand when the starter motor can't ?

We do tests then take actions depending upon the results of the tests.
The crankshaft could be binding or bent, the big end could be about to drop out, the solenoid could be burned any one of the 3 major battery leads could be corroded or just have a bad contact.
A valve could be bent or sticking, the starter could have 1/2 crud in the bottom covering the brishes & shorting them out, or any one of a hunders other problems.

That is why the reply said to try without the plug in first then if the starter turned over freely to adjust the valve lash.
We start with the most common then progress to the least common.
So what happened when you tried without th plug ?
Did it turn over freely or tend to pulsate ?


#6

mbratch

mbratch

bertsmobile1 said:
Did you try it without the spark plug in or just jump in and adjust the valve lash ?
Click to expand...
Like I mentioned in my prior post [@5:39p], I tried it with the spark plug out, and the starter turned the engine just fine. So, based upon that, and your prior recommendation, I adjusted the valves.

Can you turn the engine over by hand when the starter motor can't ?
Click to expand...
There's no accommodation for a pull cord on the engine. With the spark plug out, I can barely turn it by "palming" the grill on the top and turning it. With spark plug in, it's too difficult to turn manually.

We do tests then take actions depending upon the results of the tests.
The crankshaft could be binding or bent, the big end could be about to drop out, the solenoid could be burned any one of the 3 major battery leads could be corroded or just have a bad contact.
A valve could be bent or sticking, the starter could have 1/2 crud in the bottom covering the brishes & shorting them out, or any one of a hunders other problems.
Click to expand...
OK. Makes sense. I did replace the solenoid already with no change in results. My next step, to do something simple, was to clean all the leads. But I'm not hopeful that it's the issue, unfortunately.

That is why the reply said to try without the plug in first then if the starter turned over freely to adjust the valve lash.
Click to expand...

Yep, and I followed your recommendation. :) But the behavior hasn't changed. I tried it with the car battery as well just to make sure I hadn't just drained my mower battery in the process. Same result. If I have time Sunday, I might recheck my work on the valve adjustment just to be sure, but I was quite careful based upon a couple of instructional videos I watched. I think another next step is to pull the starter out and have a look at it. I don't have a maintenance manual for the engine, so I'll have to figure out how to extract it.


#7

B

bertsmobile1

Appologies I did not read the original post

As it turned fine with no load ( plug out ) that eliminates wiring faults in the control system so it has to be either the starter or the power feed ( including earth ) to the starter or the battery.

Next step is to run some jumpers from the battery to the solenoid to a good earth & to the starter direct.

You need to run a jumper earth lead to verify it makes no difference thus eliminate a bad earth I like to use the oil drain bolt. leave the - jumper n place and start working backwards with the + jumper.
Next run a + jumper direct to the starter + terminal. no better then you are left with either the starter or your battery.
Repeat with your vehicle to eliminate the mowers battery ( new or not, it need to be eliminated )

Now you will know if it is the battery or starter


#8

I

ILENGINE

I suspect this is now a two or three problem diagnoses . The melted fuse could be something as simple as a bad connection at the fuse holder. Have seen it more than one due to corrosion on the fuse terminals. I also think that the valves were the problem and may still be the problem if the compression release isn't working. Now with the valve problem persisting for some time, and trying to fight the problem with more battery power, it has burned up the starter.

The only wires heavy enough to handle the amps that would drain a battery in just a few seconds are the wires from the battery to the solenoid, from the solenoid to the starter, and from the frame ground back to the battery. Any other wires will either kill the fuse, or let the smoke out of the wiring harness.

The starter is hard to ohm out as far as a bad starter. I did a test a few years ago on a starter for the old opposed twin briggs with a known bad starter. Would crank engine but turned too slow to start. new starter ohm reading of .1 bad starter .2 so it is not a reliable test either. If found the most reliable test on suspect starters is the sniff test. if it smells like burnt electronics it is toast.


#9

mbratch

mbratch

Thank you gentlemen, you're a huge help on this issue. You've helped me think through the chain of components more clearly.

I connected the car battery ground directly to the chassis ground, and then did a brief connection of the PLUS from the car battery to the starter terminal. It didn't improve the starter performance. So at this point, I take it this seems like a bad starter then? The starter doesn't have a burning electrical smell (at least as far as I could get my nose in there), but perhaps it toasted previously (since I've had the issue since last fall and just gotten back to it) and any bad smell has dissipated.


#10

I

ILENGINE

Before investing in a new starter, pull the valve cover back off and double check the clearances, Also while having the cover off turn the engine over a few times and watch for the intake valve to bump off slightly before TDC compression to comfirm the compression release is working. Because if it isn't working properly you will soon damage the new starter.


#11

mbratch

mbratch

OK I put a new (B&S branded) starter in. After I buttoned it all up, it all starts and runs great. I quintuple checked my first valve lash job just to be sure it was good. I want to thank you folks for your guidance, as it was a huge help. When I get time, I might triage my old starter just to see what's up with it.


#12

B

bertsmobile1

I always undo starters inside a big carton with some old cloth loosely tacked to the sides as brush springs can go flying when you pull the end cap off.
B & S brushes are cheap & readily available but if the brushes look good then it is an uneconomic repair and off to the recycle bin with it.


#13

mbratch

mbratch

Well... it seems the saga continues.

The mower ran great all summer and started fine. It started strong and quickly most of the summer. Toward the end, it took a few turns, and sometimes the turns were a little sluggish, but it would start.

I went to start it this weekend for one last go to get loose leaves and such. It turned a little then suddenly just stopped. The symptoms seem just like before. I didn't do anything to abuse the electrical system this year. I'm really perplexed. It's really looking like I'm in the market for another starter again, but I have no idea what could be going wrong with the electrical.

Anyone have any ideas what I can check?

Thanks


#14

Micah Haarhoff

Micah Haarhoff

mbratch said:
Well... it seems the saga continues.

The mower ran great all summer and started fine. It started strong and quickly most of the summer. Toward the end, it took a few turns, and sometimes the turns were a little sluggish, but it would start.

I went to start it this weekend for one last go to get loose leaves and such. It turned a little then suddenly just stopped. The symptoms seem just like before. I didn't do anything to abuse the electrical system this year. I'm really perplexed. It's really looking like I'm in the market for another starter again, but I have no idea what could be going wrong with the electrical.

Anyone have any ideas what I can check?

Thanks
Click to expand...


maybe try the fuse?


#15

B

bertsmobile1

mbratch said:
Well... it seems the saga continues.

The mower ran great all summer and started fine. It started strong and quickly most of the summer. Toward the end, it took a few turns, and sometimes the turns were a little sluggish, but it would start.

I went to start it this weekend for one last go to get loose leaves and such. It turned a little then suddenly just stopped. The symptoms seem just like before. I didn't do anything to abuse the electrical system this year. I'm really perplexed. It's really looking like I'm in the market for another starter again, but I have no idea what could be going wrong with the electrical.

Anyone have any ideas what I can check?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Turn the engine over the hard spot by hand the try the starter again.
If it does one turn then stops again you have the old compression release problem back again.
Most of the damage done to starters is owners forcing it to turn over an engine with little or no decompression.

If the mower has been sitting for a few weeks it may have leaked fuel into the cylinder and you have a hydraulic lock.
So remove the plug & try to turn the engine over by hand looking for fuel pouring out.
Also check for "too much" oil on the dip stick.

So check that valve lash again


#16

C

Cyhusk

bertsmobile1 said:
Remove the spark plug & try again.
If the starter turns freely then your problem is the valve lash and not electrical.
I get a dozen or more every year, owners repalces the "bad " battery then the "bad " switch then the "bad" coil followed by the "bad" solenoid and $ 300 latter finally brings it in for a service and is gob smacked when I adjust the tappets & replace the rocker cover gasket ( I never reuse one ) relieve them of $ 60 and off they go, cranky for having wasted $ 300 and 10 hours of their time, suffering the inconvienence for several years because they just can't manage to read the owners manual.
Click to expand...

I removed my spark plug and tried to start. Nothing turned over. What does that mean?


#17

B

bertsmobile1

Cyhusk said:
I removed my spark plug and tried to start. Nothing turned over. What does that mean?
Click to expand...

It means you are hyjacking some one elses thread.
We have no idea what mower and engine we are trying to fix.


#18

C

Cyhusk

bertsmobile1 said:
It means you are hyjacking some one elses thread.
We have no idea what mower and engine we are trying to fix.
Click to expand...

Which means I'm out. I'll get treated better elsewhere


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