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17 years... it was a good run
#1
T
-turner-
T
-turner-
Hi all,
Well... my 17-year old Lawn Boy Medallion is on its way out, I think... so this is a multi-part post:
First... what happened was that the drive wheels started "jamming". Going to post about that in another thread.
I've been looking and looking... two mowers in Home Depot stood out - a Toro "Personal Pace" ($400 with blade brake) and a Honda something-or-other for $700... and here's what I'd like that I'm not finding yet:
1) The Honda would be my choice if it weren't so hard to drop $700. No side discharge. I like the "standard" throttle controls...
2) The Toro looked ok, but I'm VERY wary of the "Personal Pace" system. Doesn't seem like it would work well on a bumpy yard (mine's got some pretty uneven parts) but based on reviews it looks like people are doing OK with it.
3) Is it old-school to like manual speed controls? If so... I'm old school, but I like my LB: lever throttle and speed, and a lift-up bail to engage the blade.
The blade brake is pretty important as my yard gets lots of debris from trees I often can't see until I'm near it.
I'd like your advice knowing these things... also, I'm in southern NJ and am open to a good used mower that will have these features and be reliable.
Other considerations welcome!
thanks,
Andrew
Well... my 17-year old Lawn Boy Medallion is on its way out, I think... so this is a multi-part post:
First... what happened was that the drive wheels started "jamming". Going to post about that in another thread.
I've been looking and looking... two mowers in Home Depot stood out - a Toro "Personal Pace" ($400 with blade brake) and a Honda something-or-other for $700... and here's what I'd like that I'm not finding yet:
1) The Honda would be my choice if it weren't so hard to drop $700. No side discharge. I like the "standard" throttle controls...
2) The Toro looked ok, but I'm VERY wary of the "Personal Pace" system. Doesn't seem like it would work well on a bumpy yard (mine's got some pretty uneven parts) but based on reviews it looks like people are doing OK with it.
3) Is it old-school to like manual speed controls? If so... I'm old school, but I like my LB: lever throttle and speed, and a lift-up bail to engage the blade.
The blade brake is pretty important as my yard gets lots of debris from trees I often can't see until I'm near it.
I'd like your advice knowing these things... also, I'm in southern NJ and am open to a good used mower that will have these features and be reliable.
Other considerations welcome!
thanks,
Andrew
#2
Arwing64
Arwing64
Both Honda and Toro make great machines. I personally own several Toro push mowers and many of them work great. Choosing a push mower should be based on what you need to get the job done quickly and efficiently without any headaches.
First we'll start with the size of your yard. If you have a fairly small yard like in a small development, that you would really only need a 20 inch. In the middle you have 21 and 22 inch models, where you have a bigger variety of the types of mowers you can get. There is also a large 30" mower that Toro makes, and is a personal favorite of mine. Choose between needs and your budget.
Now we have to choose the self propelled system. First is the FWD, which is the most inexpensive option. It works great on flat ground and can work on small hills and some minor terrain. You also have the most maneuverability and is way more comfortably to turn since the front wheels are the only ones that move. However, they cannot climb steep hills or go over rough terrain because the wheels have a tendency to slip. Next we have the RWD. Slightly more expensive than the front wheel drive, the rear wheel drive models, provide better stability and control when going over hills or rough terrain, and does well on straight aways. Its maneuverability is lowered greatly since the rear wheels are in motion, so you would have to stop the propulsion, make your turn, and then re-engage the propulsion. With practice however, it gets a lot easier. Lastly, there are AWD models, which are relatively new. These are the most expensive option, but offers you the greatest stability on the roughest terrain or on steep hills. Maneuverability is in between the FWD and RWD. They are also great on straightaways.
The engine choice is usually a matter or personal preference but I would go with Briggs and Stratton. Thats just me. If you do get a Honda, your obviously getting a Honda.
The personal pace setup on Toro walk behind mowers work rather well. The faster you push, the mower will try to match your pace. To many it may seem a little cheap, and that was my first impression until I tried one and found out how well it worked. I do not think that anyone makes the manual speed selector for push mowers anymore. I used to have a Toro Super Recycler Pro II that had a 3 speed on it.
FWD Pros:Inexpensive, Excellent Maneuverability, Good for flat ground
Cons: Not good for hills or rough terrain
RWD Pros: Well balanced between FWD and AWD, Good for flat to moderate slopes or terrain
Cons: Difficult to maneuver
AWD Pros: Great Traction, Good for larger sloper and rougher terrain.
Cons: Expensive, maintenance, Slightly difficult to maneuver
Some mowers come with extra features that might make your mowing experience a lot better. Many today come out with a washout port, where you insert your garden hose into a plug and clean it while the mower is running. This works great with some mowers. Some have electric starters, where you just have a turn or a key. They are really handy, but keep in mind that the engine does not charge the battery, so you will have to charge it at least once a season.
Many mower have different discharge modes for different mowing conditions. Mowers can have a 3-in-1, a 2-in-1, are strictly muches. Toro mowers make it easy to quickly change from different modes. Pretty much every mower out there has the ability to mulch clippings. Some do it better than others. The Toro Mowers do this very well. This should only be done when the grass is no more than an inch taller than its cutting height. Mulching should not be done when the grass is wet, when there are leaves, or if the grass is too tall. This would bog the mower down and will cause great irritation. A side discharge is an option for 3-in-1 mowers. This is good for year round work. You can side discharge clippings if there is a lot of grass or if your lawn is super thick. A lot of mowers today have a bagging system, which will pick up clippings and put them into the bag. This will provide a much cleaner looking cut and is better for picking up leaves or lots of grass. You will have to go through the time of dumping the clippings somewhere, and the bags can fill up pretty quickly, especially when sucking up leaves. If you have a lot of leaves in your yard, I would recommend getting a leaf vacuum. Sucking them into those tiny bags is way to inefficient and irritating.
First we'll start with the size of your yard. If you have a fairly small yard like in a small development, that you would really only need a 20 inch. In the middle you have 21 and 22 inch models, where you have a bigger variety of the types of mowers you can get. There is also a large 30" mower that Toro makes, and is a personal favorite of mine. Choose between needs and your budget.
Now we have to choose the self propelled system. First is the FWD, which is the most inexpensive option. It works great on flat ground and can work on small hills and some minor terrain. You also have the most maneuverability and is way more comfortably to turn since the front wheels are the only ones that move. However, they cannot climb steep hills or go over rough terrain because the wheels have a tendency to slip. Next we have the RWD. Slightly more expensive than the front wheel drive, the rear wheel drive models, provide better stability and control when going over hills or rough terrain, and does well on straight aways. Its maneuverability is lowered greatly since the rear wheels are in motion, so you would have to stop the propulsion, make your turn, and then re-engage the propulsion. With practice however, it gets a lot easier. Lastly, there are AWD models, which are relatively new. These are the most expensive option, but offers you the greatest stability on the roughest terrain or on steep hills. Maneuverability is in between the FWD and RWD. They are also great on straightaways.
The engine choice is usually a matter or personal preference but I would go with Briggs and Stratton. Thats just me. If you do get a Honda, your obviously getting a Honda.
The personal pace setup on Toro walk behind mowers work rather well. The faster you push, the mower will try to match your pace. To many it may seem a little cheap, and that was my first impression until I tried one and found out how well it worked. I do not think that anyone makes the manual speed selector for push mowers anymore. I used to have a Toro Super Recycler Pro II that had a 3 speed on it.
FWD Pros:Inexpensive, Excellent Maneuverability, Good for flat ground
Cons: Not good for hills or rough terrain
RWD Pros: Well balanced between FWD and AWD, Good for flat to moderate slopes or terrain
Cons: Difficult to maneuver
AWD Pros: Great Traction, Good for larger sloper and rougher terrain.
Cons: Expensive, maintenance, Slightly difficult to maneuver
Some mowers come with extra features that might make your mowing experience a lot better. Many today come out with a washout port, where you insert your garden hose into a plug and clean it while the mower is running. This works great with some mowers. Some have electric starters, where you just have a turn or a key. They are really handy, but keep in mind that the engine does not charge the battery, so you will have to charge it at least once a season.
Many mower have different discharge modes for different mowing conditions. Mowers can have a 3-in-1, a 2-in-1, are strictly muches. Toro mowers make it easy to quickly change from different modes. Pretty much every mower out there has the ability to mulch clippings. Some do it better than others. The Toro Mowers do this very well. This should only be done when the grass is no more than an inch taller than its cutting height. Mulching should not be done when the grass is wet, when there are leaves, or if the grass is too tall. This would bog the mower down and will cause great irritation. A side discharge is an option for 3-in-1 mowers. This is good for year round work. You can side discharge clippings if there is a lot of grass or if your lawn is super thick. A lot of mowers today have a bagging system, which will pick up clippings and put them into the bag. This will provide a much cleaner looking cut and is better for picking up leaves or lots of grass. You will have to go through the time of dumping the clippings somewhere, and the bags can fill up pretty quickly, especially when sucking up leaves. If you have a lot of leaves in your yard, I would recommend getting a leaf vacuum. Sucking them into those tiny bags is way to inefficient and irritating.
#3
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
My Toro has the Personal Pace system. If the Toro you are looking at has the Personal Pace system, do not buy it.
1. The Personal Pace system is aggravatingly slow, and it you try to push it faster than its top speed, the mower will try to slow you down.
2. The engagement mechanism is too stiff, so instead of a "self propel" system, the mower has a "push assist" system, in which the mower only does half the work.
3. If you try to pull the mower backwards, its wheels will lock up and tear your lawn. This makes it very hard to mow in tight places.
By speeding up the engine's speed settings and adding a handle to bypass the engagement mechanism, I was able to solve the first two problems. The third still remains. As for engine brands, The Honda would be my choice. The gas tank of the Briggs and Stratton is shaped in such a way that gas must be put in very slowly to keep the tank from overfilling. The Honda has no such problem. Plus, aftermarket parts are more readily available for the Honda than for the Briggs and Stratton.
1. The Personal Pace system is aggravatingly slow, and it you try to push it faster than its top speed, the mower will try to slow you down.
2. The engagement mechanism is too stiff, so instead of a "self propel" system, the mower has a "push assist" system, in which the mower only does half the work.
3. If you try to pull the mower backwards, its wheels will lock up and tear your lawn. This makes it very hard to mow in tight places.
By speeding up the engine's speed settings and adding a handle to bypass the engagement mechanism, I was able to solve the first two problems. The third still remains. As for engine brands, The Honda would be my choice. The gas tank of the Briggs and Stratton is shaped in such a way that gas must be put in very slowly to keep the tank from overfilling. The Honda has no such problem. Plus, aftermarket parts are more readily available for the Honda than for the Briggs and Stratton.
#4
robert@honda
robert@honda
Honda offers a number of models with manual throttle control and a blade-brake clutch (blade stops, engine keeps running). Honda calls their system Roto-Stop, and you'll find it on these models:
Honda HRR216VYA (list $579)
Honda HRX217VLA (list $749)
Honda HRX217VLA (list $799)
Honda HRX217HYA (list $829)
Honda HRX217HZA (list $899)
All other Honda models have a fixed-throttle (no manual control) and both the engine and blade stop/start at the same time.
Honda HRR216VYA (list $579)
Honda HRX217VLA (list $749)
Honda HRX217VLA (list $799)
Honda HRX217HYA (list $829)
Honda HRX217HZA (list $899)
All other Honda models have a fixed-throttle (no manual control) and both the engine and blade stop/start at the same time.
#5
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
My choice would be the Toro. Everything primerbulb said about the personal pace is due to improper setup. I'm 6'-4" and the Toro's I work on will out run me on any surface. It is NOT push assist, and lockup when trying to pull back, again is improper setup. The Honda is also good, but as you said $$$$$. My Toro 3-speed was manufactured in 1988, still going strong.
#6
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
Rivets, I bought my Toro from an authorized Toro dealer, so I doubt that it was set up wrong. I took apart the gearboxes on the wheels to see if I could keep them from locking up, but I found that either it was a design issue, or a safety feature. There is no way to fix it, that is just the way it was built. You mentioned a Toro 3-speed. If it is a set speed transmission, it is not the Personal Pace. In my opinion, self propel is a system in which the mower pulls itself through the lawn without the user pushing the handle at all. There are mowers that do this. When you use the Toro Personal Pace, there is no way to mow without pushing the mower. There is actually a spring in the handle to make the mechanism stiffer and harder to engage. Specifications for my model say that it tops out at 4 mph - much slower than I like to mow.
My Toro was outperformed by a beat up Troy Bilt that I bought for $125.
Robert - If I were to buy another mower, I would either go with a Honda-powered Troy Bilt or a Honda. The gas tank of the Briggs and Stratton is shaped in such a way that gas must be put in very slowly to keep the tank from overfilling. The Honda has no such problem. Plus, aftermarket parts are more readily available for the Honda than for the Briggs and Stratton. Aftermarket parts are either rare or nonexistent for Kohlers.
My Toro was outperformed by a beat up Troy Bilt that I bought for $125.
Robert - If I were to buy another mower, I would either go with a Honda-powered Troy Bilt or a Honda. The gas tank of the Briggs and Stratton is shaped in such a way that gas must be put in very slowly to keep the tank from overfilling. The Honda has no such problem. Plus, aftermarket parts are more readily available for the Honda than for the Briggs and Stratton. Aftermarket parts are either rare or nonexistent for Kohlers.
#7
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Primer, I work for a Toro dealer and set up the PP mowers. Yours is properly if the wheels do not roll when pulled backwards. You need to loosen the PP cable to relieve press on the transmission. The spring on the handle you talk about is not adjustable, it is just a return spring to bring the handle back when you stop. I don't know of any gearboxes on the wheels. You just have a drive gear mounted to the shaft and a gear on the wheel. Obviously you don't know how the PP system works, all you need to do is start walking and the mower will move forward if adjusted properly. When the operator stops the mower stops moving forward, because the operator has released the tension on the transmission belt. I don't know how fast you mow, but no one has ever brought a PP mower back to me, saying it does not go fast enough. I have had customer ask me to set it to go slower, which can be done if you understand how it works.
#8
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
You are correct, I do not know how the Personal Pace system works. However, the performance I am getting from it makes me think it should work differently.
1. I have a very awkwardly shaped lawn, and mowing it requires pulling the mower backwards.
2. I removed the spring in the handle because even one spring makes the handle harder to push down.
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/images/toro/20054_(250000001-250999999)(2005)_WW_17.gif According to the diagram, it appears that there are 20 various parts between the wheel and the mower besides the two gears which you mentioned.
As for mowing speed, I probably should not have purchased a self propelled mower. I will jog through my lawn if the mower will let me. I wear myself out trying to push the mower faster than its top speed of 4 mph, because as I stated before, if you push the mower faster than the self propel will go it will try to slow you down.
I mow my lawn with straight passes. Am I supposed to go in circles?
1. I have a very awkwardly shaped lawn, and mowing it requires pulling the mower backwards.
2. I removed the spring in the handle because even one spring makes the handle harder to push down.
http://www.ereplacementparts.com/images/toro/20054_(250000001-250999999)(2005)_WW_17.gif According to the diagram, it appears that there are 20 various parts between the wheel and the mower besides the two gears which you mentioned.
As for mowing speed, I probably should not have purchased a self propelled mower. I will jog through my lawn if the mower will let me. I wear myself out trying to push the mower faster than its top speed of 4 mph, because as I stated before, if you push the mower faster than the self propel will go it will try to slow you down.
I mow my lawn with straight passes. Am I supposed to go in circles?
#9
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
There is no self propel mower that will meet your needs while jogging. You said you don't understand the PP system, but continue to bad mouth it. That is totally unfair to the original poster and does not help him try to figure out which mower is best for his needs. Robert@Honda knows the Honda line and recommends them. I know the Toro line and recommend them. I think Robert will agree with me that both lines make good mowers and the OP will have to use the info we gave to help him make his decision. Your posts do nothing to help, because the mower you use is not setup properly and not being used the way it was designed to be used. I wish the OP good luck in his search and apologize to him to have to listen to your Fishy banter.
#10
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
If you do not think that my mower is set up properly, please tell me how to adjust it so that it will perform better.
#11
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
Rivets, you tell me that my mower is set up wrong. If an authorized dealer listed on the Toro website set my mower up wrong, I am not going to recommend purchasing a Toro. If my mower is set up correctly and is functioning as intended, I am disappointed with its performance and cannot recommend it. Either way, I have a good reason not to recommend Toro.
I may not know how the personal pace system works, but you said in post number 7:
"I work for a Toro dealer and set up the PP mowers. Yours is properly if the wheels do not roll when pulled backwards."
I can't mow my lawn without pulling my mower backwards. Or am I supposed to mow what I can going forward and then mow a sizable portion of my lawn with a weed trimmer? If I use the mower as intended, I can't mow a sizable portion of my lawn. Are Personal Pace mowers intended for mowing only simple lawns? If so, I must rank them below all mowers that are capable of mowing an awkwardly shaped lawn. Since I want to mow all of my lawn with my mower, I don't use it as Toro recommends.
Do you have an awkwardly shaped lawn? If so, do you mow it with a Toro Personal Pace?
As for mowing speed, it varies from person to person. I consider my mower too slow, whereas you consider yours to have plenty of speed. I do not jog through my lawn on a regular basis, because my mower will not let me. I did say that I would if it went that fast. I can understand that most people prefer to walk rather than jog while mowing, and I do not criticize Toro for making their mowers as slow as they do.
I do not claim to understand all the ins and outs of my mower, but as a consumer I would not recommend the Toro Personal Pace.
If the mowers are evenly matched, how about the engines. I prefer the Honda. It is easier to refuel, and its parts are cheaper compared to those of the Briggs and Stratton.
I may not know how the personal pace system works, but you said in post number 7:
"I work for a Toro dealer and set up the PP mowers. Yours is properly if the wheels do not roll when pulled backwards."
I can't mow my lawn without pulling my mower backwards. Or am I supposed to mow what I can going forward and then mow a sizable portion of my lawn with a weed trimmer? If I use the mower as intended, I can't mow a sizable portion of my lawn. Are Personal Pace mowers intended for mowing only simple lawns? If so, I must rank them below all mowers that are capable of mowing an awkwardly shaped lawn. Since I want to mow all of my lawn with my mower, I don't use it as Toro recommends.
Do you have an awkwardly shaped lawn? If so, do you mow it with a Toro Personal Pace?
As for mowing speed, it varies from person to person. I consider my mower too slow, whereas you consider yours to have plenty of speed. I do not jog through my lawn on a regular basis, because my mower will not let me. I did say that I would if it went that fast. I can understand that most people prefer to walk rather than jog while mowing, and I do not criticize Toro for making their mowers as slow as they do.
I do not claim to understand all the ins and outs of my mower, but as a consumer I would not recommend the Toro Personal Pace.
If the mowers are evenly matched, how about the engines. I prefer the Honda. It is easier to refuel, and its parts are cheaper compared to those of the Briggs and Stratton.
#12
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I should have proof read my post #7 better, it should have read "NOT PROPERLY SET UP". I told you how to adjust it. Either loosen the cable, or it is so gunned up with grease and dirt that the key cannot release the wheels. You are going to change your mind, because you have your mind set against Toro and have no idea how self-propel mowers work. If you would have your dealer set your mower up properly, it will roll back the way it was designed. Finally, if you read all my posts you would have seen that I have an 18 year old Toro 3-speed, but I have setup and used the PP mowers since they came out. When they are setup properly and the customer knows how to use them, they make a beautiful combination to getting a great looking lawn.
#13
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
I loosened the self propel cable on my mower, and the self propel issues have disappeared. Although I can now recommend the Toro product, I can't recommend the service provided by Toro's dealers. My mower was fully set up and ready to mow when I bought it, yet it turns out that it was set up wrong. If you had not told me it was set up wrong, I would have been stuck mowing my lawn with an underperforming mower, and it wouldn't have been my fault either. The authorized dealers are supposed to be the way to go if you want to be sure your mower will work properly. When I purchase lawn equipment from an authorized dealer, I expect it to be set up correctly.
My experience with the Toro dealer in my area brings me to one of the following conclusions:
1. The employee who set my mower up did not know how to set it up, because either Toro did not provide setup instructions, or the dealer neglected to train him.
2. The employee who set my mower up knew how to set it up but was being careless.
I have changed my recommendation from "do not buy the Toro Personal Pace mower - its self propel system is badly designed" to "if the mower has a Honda engine, buy it, but do not trust the dealer to set it up correctly. Set it up yourself."
My experience with the Toro dealer in my area brings me to one of the following conclusions:
1. The employee who set my mower up did not know how to set it up, because either Toro did not provide setup instructions, or the dealer neglected to train him.
2. The employee who set my mower up knew how to set it up but was being careless.
I have changed my recommendation from "do not buy the Toro Personal Pace mower - its self propel system is badly designed" to "if the mower has a Honda engine, buy it, but do not trust the dealer to set it up correctly. Set it up yourself."
#14
exotion
It's not fair to make all dealers look bad, yes it was wrong however if you took it in afterbyoi bought it they would have fixed it. It may have been set up correctly but during the break in period things shift and change sorry this happened please don't blame all dealers thank you
exotion
I loosened the self propel cable on my mower, and the self propel issues have disappeared. Although I can now recommend the Toro product, I can't recommend the service provided by Toro's dealers. My mower was fully set up and ready to mow when I bought it, yet it turns out that it was set up wrong. If you had not told me it was set up wrong, I would have been stuck mowing my lawn with an underperforming mower, and it wouldn't have been my fault either. The authorized dealers are supposed to be the way to go if you want to be sure your mower will work properly. When I purchase lawn equipment from an authorized dealer, I expect it to be set up correctly.
My experience with the Toro dealer in my area brings me to one of the following conclusions:
1. The employee who set my mower up did not know how to set it up, because either Toro did not provide setup instructions, or the dealer neglected to train him.
2. The employee who set my mower up knew how to set it up but was being careless.
I have changed my recommendation from "do not buy the Toro Personal Pace mower - its self propel system is badly designed" to "if the mower has a Honda engine, buy it, but do not trust the dealer to set it up correctly. Set it up yourself."
It's not fair to make all dealers look bad, yes it was wrong however if you took it in afterbyoi bought it they would have fixed it. It may have been set up correctly but during the break in period things shift and change sorry this happened please don't blame all dealers thank you
#15
M
Mikel1
This^:thumbsup:
You would have thought he would at least given Rivets a well deserved thank you for helping him.
M
Mikel1
It's not fair to make all dealers look bad, yes it was wrong however if you took it in afterbyoi bought it they would have fixed it. It may have been set up correctly but during the break in period things shift and change sorry this happened please don't blame all dealers thank you
This^:thumbsup:
You would have thought he would at least given Rivets a well deserved thank you for helping him.
#16
exotion
Poor rivets never gets credit
exotion
This^:thumbsup:
You would have thought he would at least given Rivets a well deserved thank you for helping him.
Poor rivets never gets credit
#17
Carscw
I agree.
He knows what he is talking about.
I have learned a lot from him.
Sent from my iPhone using LMF
Carscw
Poor rivets never gets credit
I agree.
He knows what he is talking about.
I have learned a lot from him.
Sent from my iPhone using LMF
#18
T
-turner-
T
-turner-
Well. Here we are.
It's May of 2020 - can you guess which mower I'm using?
(Hint: I have a few more questions....
. )
It's May of 2020 - can you guess which mower I'm using?
(Hint: I have a few more questions....
. )
#19
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Probably an improperly setup Toro, that is still going strong, except for the belt you had to replace three years ago. Please, what ever questions you have, don’t blame the dealer.