ZTR Decision

[Old Goat]

Old Goat,

Personally, I would be more concerned with the Kohler Courage engine on that Ariens Zoom than I would about the blade tip speed. I think it's a given that the BTS spec is omitted because entry level ZTR's in this price range won't always have a comparable deck design or BTS compared to your Big Dog R-Series or my Gravely Commercial ZTR's. However, the "entry level" Gravely ZT 50" does give a BTS of 17,800 which ain't bad for an "entry level" ZTR(and that 50" has a MSRP of $3199..with a Kawasaki engine...and is cheaper than both the Toro and Ariens the OP is looking at). Oh well, I guess I'm "biased":0)

DJ,

Don't minimize the importance of blade tip speed. It is an important thing when one is looking to buy a ZTR. It is deck design and blade speed that gives a machine a "quality" cut. Asking questions is how a person learns. These folks are asking for advice to make an intelligent decision on spending a rather large sum of money, I believe they should know the facts. Don't muddy the waters for them. BTS of 17,800 is rather poor! Can you imagine what the ones in question are if they don't even list the speed?

Personally, I wouldn't touch a machine with a Kohler anything.

Now, why would one think you're biased? Or me either for that matter? HA.

 

[djdicetn]

DJ,

Don't minimize the importance of blade tip speed. It is an important thing when one is looking to buy a ZTR. It is deck design and blade speed that gives a machine a "quality" cut. Asking questions is how a person learns. These folks are asking for advice to make an intelligent decision on spending a rather large sum of money, I believe they should know the facts. Don't muddy the waters for them. BTS of 17,800 is rather poor! Can you imagine what the ones in question are if they don't even list the speed?

Personally, I wouldn't touch a machine with a Kohler anything.

Now, why would one think you're biased? Or me either for that matter? HA.

Old Goat,
It's obvious that you & I disagree on the "significance" of blade tip speed, but you have ABSOLUTELY got to stop comparing every ZTR on the market to your Big Dog R754. We know you like it, but you need to admit that no matter what BTS Big Dog purports for your fpm rating I would take you on any day side-by-side with my $7,500 fully Commercial model Gravely with a "measly 18,000 fpm" blade tip speed and(just like user jekjr said about his Kubota) my cut quality would have your dog running to the porch with it's tail beween it's legs!!! But again I don't compare my Gravely to a $3,000 Toro Timecutter and say what a lousy ZTR a Toro Timecutter is for cut quality either. Right now my Adobe Reader is not working, so I cannot download the specs of Big Dog A Series or Big Dog C Series. Whichever one of those would REALLY compare to a Gravely ZT 50 for $3199(or the Toro & Ariens the OP is looking at)......THAT is what you need to tell this OP the BTS is to clear the muddy waters. The OP is shopping for a < $4k ZTR so don't tell him the ZTR's he is considering are junk compared to a Big Dog. That isn't being completely truthful. Are those "entry-level" Big Dog ZTR's cranking out 19,000 fpm BTS(by the way, that is the OSHA "maximum allowed" so there aren't any higher)...I doubt it seriously. And just where do you obtain your information that 17,800 fpm "won't deliver a professional cut". I don't think you have any proof of that. No, I'll bet they(Big Dog A/C Series) are right there at 17,800 like a comparable Gravely ZT model. Come on.....keep your advice on a level playing field!!

 

[Ric]

Old Goat,
It's obvious that you & I disagree on the "significance" of blade tip speed, but you have ABSOLUTELY got to stop comparing every ZTR on the market to your Big Dog R754. We know you like it, but you need to admit that no matter what BTS Big Dog purports for your fpm rating I would take you on any day side-by-side with my $7,500 fully Commercial model Gravely with a "measly 18,000 fpm" blade tip speed and(just like user jekjr said about his Kubota) my cut quality would have your dog running to the porch with it's tail beween it's legs!!! But again I don't compare my Gravely to a $3,000 Toro Timecutter and say what a lousy ZTR a Toro Timecutter is for cut quality either. Right now my Adobe Reader is not working, so I cannot download the specs of Big Dog A Series or Big Dog C Series. Whichever one of those would REALLY compare to a Gravely ZT 50 for $3199(or the Toro & Ariens the OP is looking at)......THAT is what you need to tell this OP the BTS is to clear the muddy waters. The OP is shopping for a < $4k ZTR so don't tell him the ZTR's he is considering are junk compared to a Big Dog. That isn't being completely truthful. Are those "entry-level" Big Dog ZTR's cranking out 19,000 fpm BTS(by the way, that is the OSHA "maximum allowed" so there aren't any higher)...I doubt it seriously. And just where do you obtain your information that 17,800 fpm "won't deliver a professional cut". I don't think you have any proof of that. No, I'll bet they(Big Dog A/C Series) are right there at 17,800 like a comparable Gravely ZT model. Come on.....keep your advice on a level playing field!!

I don't know where you are getting your figures from because FPM (Feet Per Minute) will not equal or does not equal Blade tip speed to my knowledge. There is a formula to figure BTS using that figure of 19000 fpm to get your blade tip speed and I think you'll find the actual BTS will figure out to be somewhat less. Most commercial mowers are running 18000 to 18500 BTS. My Toro I think is 18500 and will work rings around your Gravely or Big Dog :smile::wink:

 

[djdicetn]

I don't know where you are getting your figures from because FPM (Feet Per Minute) will not equal or does not equal Blade tip speed to my knowledge. There is a formula to figure BTS using that figure of 19000 fpm to get your blade tip speed and I think you'll find the actual BTS will figure out to be somewhat less. Most commercial mowers are running 18000 to 18500 BTS. My Toro I think is 18500 and will work rings around your Gravely or Big Dog :smile::wink:

Ric,
Yeah, we all have the best cutting ZTR's there are:0)
So, there is a distinction between blade tip speed and the fpm you see in specs????? I thought it referred to those specs as blade tip speed, but could be mistaken(right now my Adobe is on the fritz and I can't download ANY pdf spec sheets to look at one again). So, in your opinion what is the minimum "number in the spec sheets" that one should expect to have a professional looking cut quality?????? And, BTW, user jekjr will put his new Kubota Z326 up against that Toro:0) And may make us all embarassed by our cheap machines!!!!

 

[Old Goat]

Old Goat,
It's obvious that you & I disagree on the "significance" of blade tip speed, but you have ABSOLUTELY got to stop comparing every ZTR on the market to your Big Dog R754. We know you like it, but you need to admit that no matter what BTS Big Dog purports for your fpm rating I would take you on any day side-by-side with my $7,500 fully Commercial model Gravely with a "measly 18,000 fpm" blade tip speed and(just like user jekjr said about his Kubota) my cut quality would have your dog running to the porch with it's tail beween it's legs!!! But again I don't compare my Gravely to a $3,000 Toro Timecutter and say what a lousy ZTR a Toro Timecutter is for cut quality either. Right now my Adobe Reader is not working, so I cannot download the specs of Big Dog A Series or Big Dog C Series. Whichever one of those would REALLY compare to a Gravely ZT 50 for $3199(or the Toro & Ariens the OP is looking at)......THAT is what you need to tell this OP the BTS is to clear the muddy waters. The OP is shopping for a < $4k ZTR so don't tell him the ZTR's he is considering are junk compared to a Big Dog. That isn't being completely truthful. Are those "entry-level" Big Dog ZTR's cranking out 19,000 fpm BTS(by the way, that is the OSHA "maximum allowed" so there aren't any higher)...I doubt it seriously. And just where do you obtain your information that 17,800 fpm "won't deliver a professional cut". I don't think you have any proof of that. No, I'll bet they(Big Dog A/C Series) are right there at 17,800 like a comparable Gravely ZT model. Come on.....keep your advice on a level playing field!!

Nothing I'd love better than to put your $7500 Gravely next to my $4800 Big Dog! Lets see who's running under the Porch. I'd venture to guess it would be dang close to neck & neck. But I'd still feel good in the end.

The specs are available on the web, but here's the bts for each.
C Series 18,100 to 18,400 depending on deck size.
A Series 18,100 to 18,600 depending on deck size.
R Series 18,400 to 18,900 depending on deck size.

Now, you yourself admitted to not even knowing what blade tip speed was or meant while you were buying your ZTR, and now you are going to accuse me of un-level playing field? Because I did my homework & you didn't?

Matter of fact, there is lots of info out there on blade tip speed, deck design, etc. ... but you have to search for it.
BTW, there are units out there that do go over the OSHA "maximum allowed". Google it.

All I'm saying is "don't spend ALMOST enough and then find out you shoulda, woulda, coulda.......





C,mon DJ,

 

[Ric]

Ric,
Yeah, we all have the best cutting ZTR's there are:0)
So, there is a distinction between blade tip speed and the fpm you see in specs????? I thought it referred to those specs as blade tip speed, but could be mistaken(right now my Adobe is on the fritz and I can't download ANY pdf spec sheets to look at one again). So, in your opinion what is the minimum "number in the spec sheets" that one should expect to have a professional looking cut quality?????? And, BTW, user jekjr will put his new Kubota Z326 up against that Toro:0) And may make us all embarassed by our cheap machines!!!!

I don't know what the minimum would be, I have know idea. They used to cut lawns with a push reel mower and get a good cut, How fast are those. :laughing: I do know that the Maximum recommended (safe) operating speed for a rotary mower is like 19,000 ft./min. The formula for calculating that tip speed: shaft/spindle speed X blade length X 0.262 but that is apparently that's with the blade mounted directly to the crank in a push mower and it I think it changes some how when you us a pulley system.
I'm just assuming that there's a lot that figures into it like the size of the blade, the number of blades or deck size and some other things that all play apart.

 

[Bomba]

It's getting hot in here, gentlemen.

 

[djdicetn]

Nothing I'd love better than to put your $7500 Gravely next to my $4800 Big Dog! Lets see who's running under the Porch. I'd venture to guess it would be dang close to neck & neck. But I'd still feel good in the end.

The specs are available on the web, but here's the bts for each.
C Series 18,100 to 18,400 depending on deck size.
A Series 18,100 to 18,600 depending on deck size.
R Series 18,400 to 18,900 depending on deck size.

Now, you yourself admitted to not even knowing what blade tip speed was or meant while you were buying your ZTR, and now you are going to accuse me of un-level playing field? Because I did my homework & you didn't?

Matter of fact, there is lots of info out there on blade tip speed, deck design, etc. ... but you have to search for it.
BTW, there are units out there that do go over the OSHA "maximum allowed". Google it.

All I'm saying is "don't spend ALMOST enough and then find out you shoulda, woulda, coulda.......





C,mon DJ,

Old Goat,
I'm bored with our "banter", apologize to user Brucebotti for hijacking his post with an off-topic conversation, feel comfortable with user Ric's explanation of the appropriate method to calculate blade tip speed and consider that subject closed for this thread. I've cleared my mind and realize that the OP required a minimum of a ZT-2800(servicable) tranny so I should not have recommended the Gravely ZT model that has the sealed EZT. So, just for clarification and to get back on track to assist the OP with finding the best ZTR around $4,000, I would like to be able to compare the pricing and all major specifications for the Big Dog A Series 46" ZTR(A346) with the Gravely ZT XL 48($4099) and Toro Timecutter MX5060($4199...on the Toro website even though the OP stated $3999). The Toro and Gravely ZTR's are close to the OP's $4k budget and the Toro and Gravely have the ZT-2800 trannies. The Big Dog A326 has the ZT-3100, but there isn't a Big Dog with the ZT-2800(the C series has the EZT and the A series the 3100). I cannot find any way on the Big Dog website, though, to find out the price of the 46" A Series. All I see is a "Find Dealer" and the dealers don't seem to have any online pricing. Once user Brucebotti can get a comparison of all components and prices for these 3 mowers he will have to go look at them in person and/or demo them to determine which one is right for him. Since none of the responders thus far(including me) have any "first-hand" experience with the Ariens or Toro ZTR's he asked about all I can do to assist him is give a spec-to-spec and price comparison of 3 ZTR's that he may want to go look at. The Ariens mowers are "good" mowers in their own right, but I consider them as more geared towards the big box retailers whereas the three ZTR's above are dealer models. How can you find the pricing for all Big Dog ZTR's without emailing or calling a dealer so I can give user Brucebotti a comparison of these 3 mowers with pricing for all of them? Thanks!!!

 

[Brucebotti]

Old Goat,
I'm bored with our "banter", apologize to user Brucebotti for hijacking his post with an off-topic conversation, feel comfortable with user Ric's explanation of the appropriate method to calculate blade tip speed and consider that subject closed for this thread. I've cleared my mind and realize that the OP required a minimum of a ZT-2800(servicable) tranny so I should not have recommended the Gravely ZT model that has the sealed EZT. So, just for clarification and to get back on track to assist the OP with finding the best ZTR around $4,000, I would like to be able to compare the pricing and all major specifications for the Big Dog A Series 46" ZTR(A346) with the Gravely ZT XL 48($4099) and Toro Timecutter MX5060($4199...on the Toro website even though the OP stated $3999). The Toro and Gravely ZTR's are close to the OP's $4k budget and the Toro and Gravely have the ZT-2800 trannies. The Big Dog A326 has the ZT-3100, but there isn't a Big Dog with the ZT-2800(the C series has the EZT and the A series the 3100). I cannot find any way on the Big Dog website, though, to find out the price of the 46" A Series. All I see is a "Find Dealer" and the dealers don't seem to have any online pricing. Once user Brucebotti can get a comparison of all components and prices for these 3 mowers he will have to go look at them in person and/or demo them to determine which one is right for him. Since none of the responders thus far(including me) have any "first-hand" experience with the Ariens or Toro ZTR's he asked about all I can do to assist him is give a spec-to-spec and price comparison of 3 ZTR's that he may want to go look at. The Ariens mowers are "good" mowers in their own right, but I consider them as more geared towards the big box retailers whereas the three ZTR's above are dealer models. How can you find the pricing for all Big Dog ZTR's without emailing or calling a dealer so I can give user Brucebotti a comparison of these 3 mowers with pricing for all of them? Thanks!!!

Thanks djdicetn,
The ZTR's I have looked at (at dealers) are:
- Ariens Zoom XL 48 @ $3899. Loved it except for the Kohler Courage
- Gravely ZT XL 48 @ $4399 ($4199 on website). It is basically the same as the Ariens, but with Kawasaki motor. Dealer will not budge on price. Not sure if Kawi is worth $500.
- Toro Mx5060 @ $3999 ($4199 on webste). Very nice unit except that the 50" deck leaves only 2-3" clearance to get my shed.
- Exmark Quest 50 @ $4299. Basically a slightly upgraded Toro MX5060. Same clearance issue as Toro.

I won't look at the Big Dog only because I don't want to go 65-70 miles to a dealer.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[djdicetn]

Thanks djdicetn,
The ZTR's I have looked at (at dealers) are:
- Ariens Zoom XL 48 @ $3899. Loved it except for the Kohler Courage
- Gravely ZT XL 48 @ $4399 ($4199 on website). It is basically the same as the Ariens, but with Kawasaki motor. Dealer will not budge on price. Not sure if Kawi is worth $500.
- Toro Mx5060 @ $3999 ($4199 on webste). Very nice unit except that the 50" deck leaves only 2-3" clearance to get my shed.
- Exmark Quest 50 @ $4299. Basically a slightly upgraded Toro MX5060. Same clearance issue as Toro.

I won't look at the Big Dog only because I don't want to go 65-70 miles to a dealer.

Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce,
You say you have looked at these mowers at the dealer. For some reason, the Toro website will give you the MSRP for almost all of their ZTR's but the Residential Toro ZTR I would buy does not. The Titan ZX4820 is hands-down a better mower than the MX5060 mower and last fall I am pretty sure the Toro dealer gave me a $4,406 price quote on the Titan ZX in the 54"(and $5,300 for the Titan MX5480). I would think that the ZX 48" may still be in the same price range as the others you are looking at and to be honest would be a better comparison to the Gravely XL than the Timecutter MX5060. Go back and see if the dealer has a Titan you can look at.