Export thread

Hi all, I am looking for your personal opnions on my seized engine. My Hustler Sport was delivered 5/1 of this year. I have used it 5 times. (I was on vacation for part of the time.) I went to change the oil after the 5 hour mark and when I drained the oil, I didn't get much out. (Probably about an inch and a half in the bottom of a gallon jug.) After filling the oil and replacing the oil filter, my mower would not start, just clicked. I called a different company that is Hustler authorized to do repairs as they are much closer and it is where I bought the oil and filter from. They came out and diagnosed that the starter is not getting 12 volts and the engine is seized. They said it may be that the starter is stuck open and is preventing the engine from moving or it may be due to a lack of oil. I asked what would happen if it were due to a lack of oil and he said I would be responsible for the repairs. My question is this; I understand that I am partially to blame as I didn't check the oil, but unless there is a leak somewhere, isn't this what I paid the company to prep my mower for? I guess my view is they should pay half of the cost to repair it and I should pay half. What do you think?

Start by going back to the original dealer and see what he has to say. Keep your cool when doing so. The other dealer may be authorized, but you didn't buy it there, and he isn't going to go out of his way to help. I personally don't think the second company did a very good job of diagnosis. I don't know how low battery voltage and seized engine can both happen at one time and be related. At this point do not try to unsieze the engine until the dealer has had a chance to look at it.

Rivets said:

Start by going back to the original dealer and see what he has to say. Keep your cool when doing so. The other dealer may be authorized, but you didn't buy it there, and he isn't going to go out of his way to help. I personally don't think the second company did a very good job of diagnosis. I don't know how low battery voltage and seized engine can both happen at one time and be related. At this point do not try to unsieze the engine until the dealer has had a chance to look at it.

Click to expand...

I had planned on calling the dealer where I bought it and seeing what they have to say. The second dealer has the mower now and they are going to tear it apart and figure out what is going on. If they diagnose it as a seized engine due to lack of oil, I will be interested to see if it was due to a leak or they just didn't put enough oil in it. I guess my question is, do you think that the dealer I bought it from should be responsible for part of the repair if it is determined that there was no leak? I have never had this type of experience before and am not a lawyer so just was trying to get a sense of what I can expect. Obviously this was not a cheap mower to begin with and it makes me sick to my stomach to think that I may wind up paying another $1000 on top of an already expensive mower. Thanks for the feedback!

The way I see it you have added a second problem now. You are now going to have to get two dealers to agree to what the cause of the problem is. This is not going to be easy, as they will each have a different reason to say it is your fault, as you have already heard. I cannot say who is responsible, because I cannot see the parts. The cause of a siezure could be a variety of things. To list a few, but not limited to; faulty engine part, (like rings not seating) improper dealer setup, (not enough oil, loose drain seal) operator error, (not checking oil). If I would try to say who should foot the bill, i would do a disservice to everyone using this forum. The good techs on this forum never take sides in this type of problem, that's not why we are here.

Sounds to me too the second dealer diagnosis may be questionable - if the mower was running ok before you changed the oil, then subsequent to your oil change didn't start & only "clicked", it sounds unlikely the engine is seized (combined with the low voltage it seems more plausable a faulty starter/solenoid or battery is causing the drama)

However, assuming worse case scenario & the engine is seized at only the 5 hour mark I'd be pushing back damn hard for warranty/consequential damage based on poor pre-delivery &/or supply of faulty goods:-
For your mower to seize after only 5 hours either the machine was not pre-delivered with the correct oil level, or it has consumed &/or leaked oil at an extraordinary rate indicating a faulty engine.

As Rivets advise keep your cool (but be firm with the dealer on your expectations, & also call the manufacturer direct) you should not be out of pocket for this...

Good luck & let us know how you get on.

Just thought of this. You said that you have a low battery. The bendix gear may be jammed causing the symptom of a seized engine.

Sorry, the battery isn't low; it is showing 12 volts. The starter is getting 5 volts.

MBTRAC said:

Sounds to me too the second dealer diagnosis may be questionable - if the mower was running ok before you changed the oil, then subsequent to your oil change didn't start & only "clicked", it sounds unlikely the engine is seized (combined with the low voltage it seems more plausable a faulty starter/solenoid or battery is causing the drama)

However, assuming worse case scenario & the engine is seized at only the 5 hour mark I'd be pushing back damn hard for warranty/consequential damage based on poor pre-delivery &/or supply of faulty goods:-
For your mower to seize after only 5 hours either the machine was not pre-delivered with the correct oil level, or it has consumed &/or leaked oil at an extraordinary rate indicating a faulty engine.

As Rivets advise keep your cool (but be firm with the dealer on your expectations, & also call the manufacturer direct) you should not be out of pocket for this...

Good luck & let us know how you get on.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info...I mentioned the oil change as the guy was looking at it and he took the screen off and tried moving the engine with his hands and it wouldn't budge. That is why he said it is probably seized. The guy I talked with was super nice, but we'll see what the final result is. I am tempted to call the original place to forewarn them about this to get the ball rolling, but if it is something else that is causing this to look like a seized engine, I don't want to get folks spun up about something that may not be. I will definitely keep everyone posted on the results of this and please continue to chime in with any additional thoughts.

I just had a second thought. (Only had one cup of coffee this morning) I would contact the engine manufacturer directly and explain your problem to them directly. Let them know that you probably have put two dealers against each other and that is not what you want to do. Admit that you just want your unit fixed and may not have gone about it the best way in the heat of the moment. Don't forget to mention this forum and the advise you received here. Don't put the blame on anyone yet. Many times working WITH the manufacturers rep. Speeds things put and makes everyone look good and feel better.

Rivets said:

The way I see it you have added a second problem now. You are now going to have to get two dealers to agree to what the cause of the problem is. This is not going to be easy, as they will each have a different reason to say it is your fault, as you have already heard. I cannot say who is responsible, because I cannot see the parts. The cause of a siezure could be a variety of things. To list a few, but not limited to; faulty engine part, (like rings not seating) improper dealer setup, (not enough oil, loose drain seal) operator error, (not checking oil). If I would try to say who should foot the bill, i would do a disservice to everyone using this forum. The good techs on this forum never take sides in this type of problem, that's not why we are here.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice Rivets. I thought about taking this to the original dealer and actually did call them and ask them about it. They told me there would be no advantage in taking it to them so as the second dealer was closer, I went with them as I have no way of transporting it and needed it picked up. My other thinking was that having a second dealer look at it would be a neutral third party of sorts (I know they are still a dealer and want to make money) but perhaps they could tell me what happened. If the original dealer is worth their salt, I was hoping that they would step up and help with the bill. As you mentioned, it is hard to argue with the fact that if it is due to lack of oil, it still comes down to me not checking the oil before running the engine so I do feel partially to blame. I have never encountered something like this so was just looking for advice on if I am crazy to think the dealer should help or if this totally lays in my lap. I appreciate your feedback.

Rivets said:

I just had a second thought. (Only had one cup of coffee this morning) I would contact the engine manufacturer directly and explain your problem to them directly. Let them know that you probably have put two dealers against each other and that is not what you want to do. Admit that you just want your unit fixed and may not have gone about it the best way in the heat of the moment. Don't forget to mention this forum and the advise you received here. Don't put the blame on anyone yet. Many times working WITH the manufacturers rep. Speeds things put and makes everyone look good and feel better.

Click to expand...

Awesome advice. I will definitely do this. Thanks again!

Third thought. (working on second cup). You said 12V battery, 5V starter. This is an electrical problem on the unit and not the engine. Carefull what you say to the engine manufacturer. May have to talk to the unit manufacturer in the future. Going for a third cup.

I just mentioned that the engine was seized and nothing about the starter voltage. Doesn't really sound like Briggs would help anyway, as they said if it is due to lack of oil, it is a maintenance issue and wouldn't be covered. I contacted the dealer I purchased the unit from and left a message so we'll see what they say.

Lack of oil after 5 hours is not maintenance. Either mechanical problem (rings, valve, breather) or there was not enough oil put in at setup.

I'm with Rivets all the way on this...

seized At the time of an oil change....
(that's possible, low lube will generate a lot of heat, things will expand and when using the engine power to keep things moving, a lot of the parts are going to bind up, after stopping the engine,The starter will not have enough HP to get them moving again)....

5 volts at the starter isn't necessairly a problem... I am not sure what a Locked starter will draw... But it could easily pull enough amps to load a 12 volt battery down to 5 volts, that's possible..

Operating an engine with low oil is surely the operators responsibility, (you "should" always check oil levels...) Not everyone does, including me.
It's easy to assume is going to be there, because it was there the last time used...
B&S along with other engine manufactures have had a lot of new engine failures because of lubricant problems... Engines are always shipped with no oil ... and sometimes, it is overlooked or improperly serviced at the start of it's life...
I wish you good luck, but if you get anything I think it will be at the dealers expense... someone else may have contributed to the low oil level... But as the end user, the ultimate responsibility should fall to you.

You may be Notsohappy now, but in the longer run... You do have an exceptional mower & other than having a bit More $ tied up in the initial cost, you will still have a great mower.
Plus this is a timely reminder for all of us to remember to check the oil, (first day of Summer, & Heat places a lot of demand on oil) .
Post back with the outcome, and try to become a bit less, Notsohappy... :smile:KennyV

BTW...
The only reason we are aware that this problem seems to result from operating with a very Low level of oil... is because you measured the amount drained.... and admitted to the quantity...
I'll commend you for manning up to the oversight of checking the oil level before operating... but this one bit of information really pushes the failure probability toward insufficient lubrication and away from some manufacturer's defect or problem.
That said, if it was low or no oil failure, during a close examination of the parts, would reveal that condition... so there would be no advantage to trying to conceal that bit of information.

It is more of a statement of your character, that you are able to admit to your responsibility... so cheer up a little, knowing that your capable of making mistakes like all of us... and you are also capable of taking the responsibility... :smile:KennyV

Please post the results of the inspection, and exactly what they say is the cause is. If it is a bearing, what bearing. Kenny and I are very interested in hearing what they have to say. That is all individuals involved. Mechanic, Briggs rep., dealer where you bought the unit. If everything is as you say, I am interested in what the dealer has to say about setup and what the rep. has to say about failure. If you end up paying, please ask for the parts back and if you are able post some pictures of the bad parts. Would be very interested in seeing what happened.

Thanks all for the advice. I am admittedly not an engine expert, so that is why I came here. I will keep everyone posted on the status and Rivets, I did contact the Briggs customer support (I believe I mentioned this in a previous post) as you suggested and they are supposed to be opening a case and someone is supposed to contact the dealer that has my mower and see what is going on. I still have not heard back from the service manager at the dealership where I purchased the mower, so that isn't very promising. I asked the guy that picked up my mower when he thought it would be looked at and he said either today (Friday) or Monday. Kenny, thanks for the kind words. As I believe I mentioned in my original post, I am sure some of the blame is on me as I didn't check the oil before running the engine, so I don't expect to come out of this without paying anything, although it would be awful nice! I understand I have made a mistake, but as you mentioned, I don't check the oil level every time I use my mower (nor do I check the oil level in my car every time I use it either), but you can bet I will start now. Expensive lesson to learn, but I am hoping that either it is something that can be fixed (not likely) or the dealer will step up and help out with the repairs as it was in my opinion partially their fault as well. If the engine oil level was full to begin with, I wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Thanks again everyone for your input as it has been very helpful.

Have you tried to turn the engine over by hand to see if it really is seized?

I did not but the guy that came to look at it tried to turn the flywheel and could not. He could not turn it with both hands which is where I got that it is seized up. I won't know exactly what happened/why until they tear it apart, hopefully today. Seeing I did not get that much oil out when I did my 5 hour oil change leads me to believe it is seized due to lack of oil, but won't know for sure what is going on until I hear from the shop.

Charge the battery

Powerstroke said:

Charge the battery

Click to expand...

Powerstroke, sorry, I must not have been clear; the battery has 12V. When he measured the voltage at the starter, it had 5V.

Ok everyone, I finally got the call from the shop. They said the connecting rod was seized. They told me they ordered the parts to fix it and they should be in by Wednesday. I asked if it was going to be covered under warranty and he said, "oh, yeah."! I have been losing sleep over this and he mentioned it as an afterthought! I didn't ask any more questions as I was so estatic. I figure when they deliver the mower I will ask them how they got it covered under warranty as sure as I am sitting here I believe it was due to lack of oil. I just wanted to share the wonderful news! I will let you all know what I find out when it is delivered. They said hopefully we can schedule a delivery before the end of the week!

Glad to hear it, only problem now is you'll have to start mowing again.

I don't think mowing will be a problem. It pained me to watch and pay someone else to mow my grass when I am paying on a new mower..;o) I do have another question for everyone's professional opinion; everywhere I read said that if you have a seized engine that you needed a new engine. They are fixing mine. Is there anything I need to watch out for? I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, just was wondering if there are any pro's/cons or if there is anything I have to be careful with (besides keeping the oil full...;o)

as long as its done right it will be like a new engine but keep a close eye on the oil level and make shire to ask what kinda warranty there works has and if the manufactures warranty is still in place

That is awesome to hear. Thanks for the info! As long as the manufacturer's original warranty is still in effect, I will be happy. They are an authorized Briggs repair shop, so I would think it would, but like you said, I better ask. Thank you for pointing that out!

Manufacturers warranty is still in effect for two years, even though you have had work done on the engine. Dealer will probably tell that their warranty will be the same as manufacturers.

Great result to hear the manufacturer/dealer is looking after you on the repair & values their customers.- makes me put "Hustler" on the shopping list if I'm looking for ZTR.

It always surprises me when manufacturers/dealers take the "hardline" on reasonable goodwill, burn their current customers, pay for so called "customer" call centres which have no authority/capabilty except to "fob" off customers & then spend a fortune on advertising/marketing trying to get new customers- happpens to all of us.

Recently I was charged for c.$600 repair for a broken plastic lever which failed on an almost new/2month old/119hr 350hp tractor - despite my protests it was not robust/fit for purpose & therefore failed under warranty, the manufacturer deemed it unreasonably as abuse.....Having this experience on top of a few other similarly ignored customer "concerns", I have now formally advised the manufacturer/dealer as they are no longer value customer relationships, nor value our 20yr+ partnership we are not be progressing with their 3 current quotes, nor in the future ordering any further tractors/equipment of this brand for any of our farms (@c.$1m+ thought of current quotes "evoparating", suddenly they're now interested in me as a customer...all too hard & too late as I've swapped orders to other brands )

Ok everyone, I got my mower back! They said they replaced the connecting rod, the crankshaft and wrist pin and I should be good to go. I asked them what happened and he told me that the connecting rod was seized due to some sort of warpage and once they freed the connecting rod, the entire engine freed up. They told me this was not due to lack of oil which is why it was covered under warranty. I still find it hard to believe that I was running on that little of oil and the engine "mysteriously" seized when I changed the oil, but hey, I am definitely a happy customer! Not only that, but the shop I took it to charged me $40 to pick it up and deliver it. I was under the impression it was $40 each way. I must say I am impressed with this shop and will definitely spread the word about them and do all my business with them. (as well as check my oil every time I use my mower...) Thank you all for your inputs as for someone that is not an engine expert, this really did scare the crap out of me as I thought I was looking at a new engine on my dime worst case and best case half a new engine and a couple months of arguing with the shop I bought it from.

glad to hear it all turned out great for you good luck with it and enjoy