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I have a yahoo Kees zero turn mower. The problem I am having is: mower will start - but not using the key. I installed a new start solenoid and a new ignition switch. However, I CAN still start by jumping from the positive battery terminal to the starter

HERE IS WHAT I NEED HELP WITH: I was mowing my lawn 2 weeks ago for the first time this year mowing. I mowed about 2 acres and the mower ran great, zero problems. However, this past Saturday I went out to mow the lawn again and the mower started up, but if I pulled the driving stick in to mow the mower would die. If I engaged the PTO the mower would die. But, the mower would start without the parking brake being set. This should not happen. If the parking brake is not set the mower should not start. Also, if I was sitting on the mower and tried to move the drive stick inward so I could drive it, it would die. This again should not happen. I should be able to pull the driving sticks inward if I am sitting on the mower. Someone please help!

Let me tell you everything I have done and tested. First I tested the brake safety switch. I pulled it out and tested for ohms and one side had ohms and the other side did not. Then I pushed in the safety switch button and received ohms on the other side. So, brake safety switch tested good. Next, I tested the seat switch, I lifted the seat and disconnected the seat safety switch wire. Tested the wire off of the seat switch. It read NO ohms, until I pressed down on the seat then there was ohms. So, I believe the safety seat switch was good. Next, I disconnected the PTO clutch and tested the ohms going from where I disconnected the PTO clutch and what I read the ohms should read between 2 and 4 ohms. Mine read 2.5, so my PTO clutch is good. So, then I read something about maybe the ignition switch could be bad and this would not let the PTO or driving sticks to engage or work. So, I replaced the ignition switch, but this did not fix the problem either. There are 3 relays under the seat, they are all the same. If you are standing behind the mower facing the front, the relay to the far right, opposite side of the battery. If I unplug that relay I can now move the drive sticks in and drive the mower, but the PTO still will not work. I even moved the relays around, but nothing changed. Now, I am stumped and don't know what to check next. Everything, I have read, keeps saying the brake is connected to the seat and the seat is connected to the PTO. So, as soon as I find the problem it will fix ALL - brake, PTO and Driving. I NEED SOME HELP!!!

:welcome:

Welcome to the forum! I'm going to move this thread over to our Husqvarna section. Someone over there may be able to help.

do you have the circuit diagram ?
You will need it so we can work our way through it with you.
Please do not be embarrassed if you can not read one, most people have difficulty with them but the regular posters here will walk you through.

To crank the engine, 12 V passes from the B terminal to the S terminal via the ignition switch.
From there it passes down the orange wire to the PTO switch where it becomes Orange & White
The orange & white wire goes through the right lever switch where it changes to Orange again and goes to the left lever when it becomes Orange & White again when it goes to the starter relay + trigger terminal.
However electricity will not flow unless there is a complete circuit from + to -.
The other trigger terminal on the starter relay goes ground via the light blue wire to the brake switch then the grey wire to the brake relay where it becomes black and goes to ground via the double black wire.
So you have a couple of options.
1) replace everything
2) make up some short jumper leads to replace the switches ( what I do )
3) try to measure continuity and / or voltage at each switch & relay.

Note all the switches are double.
One side is open circuit with the plunger in and the other side is closed circuit with the plunger in.
Plunger out and the connections go the other way.

Whatever you do it is very important that you take the blower housing off and pull the kill wires off the coils.
The coils have a very sensitive chip in them and if you accidently send 12V down them for the briefest amount of time you will fry the chip causing a coil replacement .

Print out page 40 which has your wiring diagram on it several times then pinch a hi-liter pen from the kids and draw in the complete path for the cranking circuit.
To bypass a switch you will need a jumper with 2 female spade terminals and to bypass a relay you need a jumper with 2 male terminals.

Relays are all wired the same and the numbers shown on the relay at the bottom of the page will be cast into the bottom of the relay.
In some cases there is a diode in the trigger so 85 is generally the + trigger and 86 is usually the - trigger so you test those 2 terminals for voltage or ground.
Just note that some of the relays provide trigger to other relays.

Lawn king,

Do I need to make jumpers up to replace all switches? Or is there away to tell which switch I need to bypass by all the information I gave you. This mower is driving me crazy. I know it is something small. I just can not find it. I have tested a lot of things, that's why I am thinking it might be a broken wire. Any ans all information will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Joe

Joe ,
Do you understand the wiring diagram ?
I am not trying to embarris you, just to work out what level to pitch the answers to.
In your situation I start by jumping the relays to the position they would be in for starting with the spark plugs removed or the coils grounded or both.
That requires 4 jumpers, one for each of the relays and one for the coil ( 2 for a twin )
The coil jumpers have a clip on one end for grounding and a female spade on the other.
Check the wiring diagram to see if the seat switch is open or closed when you sit on it and jump that as well.
In fact on a lot of ZTR's with dodegy wiring I remove the east all together to get easier access.
Not being related to Batman there is a limited time I can hang upside down from the ceiling to get at the wiring. :laughing:

If you get the engine to crank, then set all of the controls to the start position, replace the relays ,jump the plug at the back of the ignition switch and follow the cranking circuit, checking for voltage before & after each switch,
Then put you test lamp on the + battery terminal and check for ground on all of the switches that go to ground.

It is a SLOOOOOOOOOW process.
I like to use test lamps rater than meter for this as numbers tend to be confusing and some switches have resistors in them to make things even more confusing.
And while they are out, check each relay by jumping to the trigger wires and testing that the contact on the switched wire switches between 87 and 87a when energised then switches back when not energised.

Most mower relays are the common 30A headlamp / horn relays used in cars because they are the cheapest ones you can get, not because they are the most robust.

What ohm reading were you getting when testing the safety switches. Also test the outside prongs on the pto switch both with the button in and out and post the readings.

I have not got a reading on the PTO switch yet, I will get that tonight and report the results. As for the wiring diagram, I do have a printout from the owners manual and service manual. Again, I have checked the switch on the Break, the 3 relays, the starter solenoid & PTO clutch when unplugged. I have also checked the 2 fuses (one is a 7.5 amp & the other is a 20 amp fuse).

OK<
Had a think about it and worked out a battle plan that everyone should be able to follow.
So we will start by testing the + side of the cranking circuit, from the 20A fuse through to the starter solenoid.
You will need 2 male=male jumpers to do this.
You can check for voltage with a meter or a lamp, but a lamp will be easier as you can clip the ground lead to a good ground and thus have one hand free.
When I say 12 V anything from 10 to 12 is fine.

1) Check for 12 V both side for the 20A fuse on the red wire
2) Check for 12 V at the B terminal ( red wire ) at the back of the ignition switch
3) Hole the switch in the start position and check for 12V at the S terminal ( Orange wire ) and at the A1 terminal ( purple wire )
4) pull the plug off and jump the red wire to the orange wire.
5) check for 12 V on the orange wire at the PTO switch ( switch off )
6) check for 12 V on the orange/white wire at the PTO switch ( switch off )
7) turn the switch on and check for no voltage on the orange / white wire, then turn switch off again
8) Check for 12 V on the orange / white wire on the RIGHT stick, with the stick out
9) check for 12 V on the orange wire ( stick out )
10) move stick in check for no volts on orange wire, return stick to out position.
11) check for 12 V on the orange wire at the LEFT stick.
12) check for 12 V on the orange / white wire, stick out.
13) Check for 0 V when stick moved in, return to out position
14) locate the starting relay, it has a Yellow, Light Blue, orange / white & double black wires.
15) check for 12 V on the orange / white wire
16) Check for GROUND on the light blue wire
17) remove the relay and jump the orange / white to the yellow terminal, engine should crank

18) move the jump to connect the yellow to the green wires, go back to the ignition plug and move the jump from the Orange wire to the Purple wire. sit on the seat & engine should crank
If not
19) check for 12 V on the purple wire at the seat switch
20 ) check for 12 V on the green wire at the seat switch, when compressed, if good jump the switch wires.
21) check for 12 V on the green wire at the starter relay

At this point you have checked the trigger power circuit ( the orange wires ) and the cranking power supply ( purple & green wires ).

Verify that the relay is working by powering 85 & grounding 86.
The relay should click and 30 should move from 87 to 87a.

If all is good then go have a beer you have earned it and let the blood drain back from your head which has been upside down for way too long ( pull the jumpers first )

You have also isolated the problem to the ground side of the starting trigger circuit.
Checking that is basically the same except you are looking for ground, not 12 V and this is where the test lamp come to its own as you hook it up to the + terminal.
When testing the ground circuit it is essential to remove the wires from the coils just in case you accidentially send voltage down the wire which will kill the chip in the coils.

This is a bit long winded but will be easy for every one to follow if the testing is done in the same order as power flows when you turn the key so it all makes sense.
IF you want a step by step for the ground circuit get back & I will do one for you.

Ok, I found some time to test the PTO red switch. The PTO switch is good. I tested the Circuit with the PTO switch open and close. Now, I have tested all switches and relays. So, now I am leading towards a broken wire somewhere. Can someone tell me how I can test power going to the PTO switch. I have a test light and a ohms meter. There are like 6 or 8 wires going to the PTO switch, which one is the power going to the PTO switch? Also, does the key need to be turned and does the seat switch need to be pressed or sited in? If so, I could place a car battery in the seat. Thanks for any help you can give me. I am checking any and all advice. Thanks, joe

So, now I have tested the PTO switch and it is good. I have tested the PTO clutch and it is also good. I have tested seat switch, break switch, driving stick switches and all is good. So, now I need to test power to each of these. How do I test power to the red PTO switch, and then power to the PTO clutch. I tested continuity to the PTO clutch and they said it should be around 2.5 ohms and mine was exactly 2.5 ohms. I have a rest light and a ohms tester. I hope someone can walk me through things to test power to and from each component. I am very frustrating. All help is welcome. Thanks, Joe

JoeCoplan said:

So, now I have tested the PTO switch and it is good. I have tested the PTO clutch and it is also good. I have tested seat switch, break switch, driving stick switches and all is good. So, now I need to test power to each of these. How do I test power to the red PTO switch, and then power to the PTO clutch. I tested continuity to the PTO clutch and they said it should be around 2.5 ohms and mine was exactly 2.5 ohms. I have a rest light and a ohms tester. I hope someone can walk me through things to test power to and from each component. I am very frustrating. All help is welcome. Thanks, Joe

Click to expand...

Joe,
See post # 8
looks like we both had the forum open at the same time
Get through that lot and we will see what is happening.
I rather think the seat switch wires are pinched some where but in your case the seat switch is battery voltage so if it was shorting then It should have blown the small fuse.

Going through the test process from thread post #8

#1). I checked power to the 20A fuse - no power to either wire. With fuse in and with fuse out. No power with ignition switch on or off.

#2). On the ignition switch the wire going to the "B" is a blue wire not a red wire. No power with with the switch in the on or off position.

#3). No power to the "S" on the ignition switch with the key in the run position.

#4). No power

#5). No orange wire at the PTO switch. (Blue, Green, White, Red, Yellow, and Black or Brown)

#6). No orange-white wire @ PTO switch

#7). Can't check power to switch because because there is not a orange-white wire.

I stopped at #7. Does any of this information help at all. Remember, I can still jump and start the mower from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter.

JoeCoplan said:

Going through the test process from thread post #8

#1). I checked power to the 20A fuse - no power to either wire. With fuse in and with fuse out. No power with ignition switch on or off.

#2). On the ignition switch the wire going to the "B" is a blue wire not a red wire. No power with with the switch in the on or off position.

#3). No power to the "S" on the ignition switch with the key in the run position.

#4). No power

#5). No orange wire at the PTO switch. (Blue, Green, White, Red, Yellow, and Black or Brown)

#6). No orange-white wire @ PTO switch

#7). Can't check power to switch because because there is not a orange-white wire.

I stopped at #7. Does any of this information help at all. Remember, I can still jump and start the mower from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter.

Click to expand...

Yes.

You have just found a fault, which would explain your starting problems and toss my initial theory right out the window.
The wire that goes to the B (= Battery ) terminal on the ignition switch is the power supply for the entire mower when the engine is not running .
Thus it must always read 12 V when ever the battery is connected.
Generally it is connected to the hot wire on the starter solenoid.
A common mistake is to fit it to the switched pole on the solenoid so it can not supply power to the controls.
AS your problem started suddenly and not after you had replaced the solenoid , that wire is either broken, burned out or has fallen off.
So trace it back and see where it goes to.

When the engine is running , power is supplied from the alternator. Usually to one of the A terminals and according to the circuit diagram I have A1 & B are tied together
The only one I could find was For Units Produced Before Serial No. 074841364 which is why we are always at people for the full mower & engine numbers as it does make things difficult when the wires on your mower are different colours to the ones on my diagram.
Jumping the mower from the battery will energise the ignition switch while the jump is happening which will provide power to the fuel solenoid for long enough to start the engine from when the alternator provides the power.

Now because what you have in front of you is different to what I have in front of me, check the ignition switch plug for power, just in case there are differences in the connections.
IF no wire has power when the ignition is turned off then we have struck gold, or at least know where it is.
Just be careful that no power is allowed to go to the M (= magneto ) terminal which is the kill wire which should only ever be open circuit or ground.

This is what I have been using
View attachment Early with relays.pdf
So the wire colours come from here.
I used this because you mentioned you had 3 relays and this circuit diagram has 3 relays
the latter wiring diagram
View attachment late-no relays.pdf
has the same coloured wires at the PTO switch as you described except a red which I would assume was the wire from the ignition S terminal to the PTO cranking power terminal
Unfortunately neither show the alternator or where it is plugged into the circuit
Finally this is what I see for the main loom
View attachment loom.pdf
Note it shows a single heavy wire from the battery + to the solenoid so the wire with the 20 A fuse should also be connected to the same solenoid terminal.

There is NO power anywhere on the switch. Should I put the old start solenoid back on? You are right, I never had any of these problems until I placed a new starter solenoid on. I am sure I placed the wires onto the solenoid correct, but now I am second guessing myself. My solenoid is a 3 post. 2 bolts and 1 slip on wire. Can you tell me how the wires go onto the solenoid. I am pretty sure that I connected them correctly to the solenoid. But, now I just want to be sure. Thank you

http://www.yazookees.com/ddoc/YAZI/YAZI2002_USen/YAZI2002_USen_105292R08_.pdf

Here I see the link, that I have been using. The wiring diagram, I believe is on page 20 or 21.

JoeCoplan said:

There is NO power anywhere on the switch. Should I put the old start solenoid back on? You are right, I never had any of these problems until I placed a new starter solenoid on. I am sure I placed the wires onto the solenoid correct, but now I am second guessing myself. My solenoid is a 3 post. 2 bolts and 1 slip on wire. Can you tell me how the wires go onto the solenoid. I am pretty sure that I connected them correctly to the solenoid. But, now I just want to be sure. Thank you

Click to expand...

The hot wire from the battery can go to either of the large terminals, it does not matter which one
However there should be another thin wire ( other end of the wire with the 20A fuse ) with a big ring terminal on it that goes on the same terminal as the wire from the battery.
Chances are you either left it off cause it fell back somewhere or put it on the same terminal as the wire to the starter motor.
The other heavy wire goes to the starter motor.
The solenoid is just a switch and does the same thing as your cresent wrench.
Because both heavy wires look the same, it is easy to put the thin wire back on the same terminal it came off then transpose the heavy wires.
If your wire from the battery has a rubber cap on it , a good idea is to poke the mower wire through the cap as well so they stay together or tape them together

The slip on wire is the trigger wire and goes to the tab .
The solenoid gets its ground connection from the bolts that hold it to the mower.
It is also a common mistake to connect the power feed ( fused ) wire to one of these bolts mistaking it for a ground wire.

Just one of "those" things we have all done from time to time, but it would be nice if this was it. A simple fix and why a methodical start at one end & got to the other approach always works.

IF you are unsure, take a quick photo of it and post it, the boys will spot it in 2 seconds flat.

Heck YES, I found it. It was a small red wire tucked under the rubber boot coming off of the positive Battery terminal.

Now, the mower is back to where it was before I started all this. IT STILL DOES NOT START USING THE IGNITION. I PUT A NEW IGNITION SWITCH AND A NEW STARTER SOLENOID. IS THERE ANYTHING I can test to get this mower to start using the key? If not, I will just continue to start using a jumper wire from the positive battery to the starter.

A Hugh thanks to you for helping me through this mind pizzeling situation.

On page 22 in the book you were using note than under the battery wire is a second small wire near the number 15 with a little line passing through it.
That is the guilty party

Any suggestion on what to check for, in order to get this mower to start using the key? As you know I have already put a new starter solenoid and a new ignition switch on. on the starter solenoid (3 bolt solenoid). Coming off the positive battery to on side of the solenoid there are 2 wires. One thick red wire going to the positive on the battery and one going up to the switch. On the other side of the solenoid the wire goes over to the starter. Then there is a plug or slide on wire in front of the 2 bolts. Again, thanks for any help you can provide me.

OK Joe,
I am not quite sure where we are.
You have found another red wire which was not connected to anything and have now connected it to the battery + terminal. is that correct ?
If so do you now have power to the fuse and to the B terminal on the ignition switch ?
Should this be the case then it is back to the tests from post 8.
From what you have said, the power should go to the PTO switch via the red wire and from there on to the left side lever switch via a yellow wire

Ok, I did some more test.

1). At the solenoid (3 pole solenoid) there are 2 bolts and a push on wire. I know where each of these wires go. On one bolt you have 2 wires connected. A thick red wire that goes over to the positive terminal on the battery and the smaller red wire delivers power to the rest of the mower. On the other bolt there is 1 wire that runs to the starter. And then there is a yellow push on wire that sends power to the starter side of the solenoid when the keys is turned

2). So, I tested the large and small wire that is running from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter and there is 12V.

3). I then pulled the yellow wire off of the push on and tested the push on and there was not 12V.

4). Next, I tested the spade push on post for 12V and again there was zero. With the key in the off position. But, I know there should only be 12V when you turn the ignition to start. Again, when I turn to start there is NO POWER TO THE SPADE POST OR THE YELLOW WIRE LESDING TO THE SPADE POST.

This tells me that there is NO power transferring from the battery side of the solenoid to the starter side of the solenoid. NOW, IF I LEAVE THE KEY TURNED ON IN THE RUN POSITION I DO HEAR A CLICKING SOUND EVERY 3 to 5 seconds underneath where all the wire harnesses are.

Is there anything I can test or do to get power to the yellow wire that slides onto the solenoid. So, it will transfer power to the starter side when I turn the key?

Joe.
Yes the aim is to get 12V on that yellow wire that goes on the spade terminal.
It is a daisy chain from the wire on the top of the solenoid, through the ignition switch, through the PTO switch, through the LH steering arm , through the RH steering arm through the starting relay then finally to the yellow wire on the solenoid.

That was the whole purpose of the sequence I wrote back in post # 8.
Tracing the power from start to finish looking for the broken link.

When you initally tried, nothing happened because there was no power getting to the ignition switch.
You have fixed that problem so now you can run through the list as first intended.

The alternative is jumping around going from pillar to post, and testing a switch with an Ohm meter does not mean it will pass current when required to.
So it is back to the start and run through the test sequence in post # 8

The fact that neither of us actually has a proper wiring diagram ( actual full circuit diagram ) makes it a bit more difficult so in these cases, point testing is a waste of time.
Thus it is a case of following the circuit all the way from start to finish.

Tedious as it is, it is what I have to do regularly when I get a mower in the shop that I can not find a circuit diagram for.
May times I have spent weeks testing this then testing that trying to think my way out of a problem when I could have simply followed the current .
SO when I dont know how the factory wired it the I just check everything from the battery all the way back to the battery.

Now it looks like your mowers cranking circuit is all yellow wires which is how the latter ones were wired.

so print the circuit diagram ( early with relays ) posted reply no # 14
mark out the wires I mentioned in post # 8 on the diagram,
This is the cranking control circuit that you are testing.
It has 3 parts
S terminal to relay ( + 12V trigger circuit)
G terminal to relay ( Ground trigger circuit)
A1 terminal to relay ( solenoid power circuit )

This is one of the most complicated systems I have seen so it will be slow and I am trying to make it as simple for you to follow as possible.
It appears that the seat switch on your mower is a + 12 V circuit, so testing continuity across the seat switch will be of little value if the switch is not getting 12 V in the first place.