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Won't start
#1
B
Bobby Boyd
B
Bobby Boyd
Well, I turf tiger started right up today then after mowing for about 20 minutes i parked it. I got on it to start it up after about an hour and when I turned the key nothing happened. And yes, brake was, seat was down and I was sitting on it, control levers were out and deck was up. Any ideas. This happened about weeks ago. I have some ideas but would like to get some from you guys.
This is my 5th season with the mower bought brand new.
-bobby
This is my 5th season with the mower bought brand new.
-bobby
#2
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
My bet is on a loose connection, either at the battery or solenoid. Check positive and negative battery terminals and then the negative battery cable where it attaches to the chassis. Next, the two large terminals on the solenoid. If the solenoid has two small terminals, one comes from the ignition switch and the other goes to ground, both of these connections and where is attaches to ground must be checked. By checking I mean, loosen, remove, clean and reattach securely.
#4
B
Bobby Boyd
Well, switches are ok. I now can hear a click when I turn the key but nothing else.
-bobby
B
Bobby Boyd
Well, I turf tiger started right up today then after mowing for about 20 minutes i parked it. I got on it to start it up after about an hour and when I turned the key nothing happened. And yes, brake was, seat was down and I was sitting on it, control levers were out and deck was up. Any ideas. This happened about weeks ago. I have some ideas but would like to get some from you guys.
This is my 5th season with the mower bought brand new.
-bobby
Well, switches are ok. I now can hear a click when I turn the key but nothing else.
-bobby
#5
B
Bobby Boyd
Thanks for you input but I have ruled out the switches with jumper wire. I now can hear a click when I turn the key but nothing else.
-bobby
B
Bobby Boyd
My bet is on a loose connection, either at the battery or solenoid. Check positive and negative battery terminals and then the negative battery cable where it attaches to the chassis. Next, the two large terminals on the solenoid. If the solenoid has two small terminals, one comes from the ignition switch and the other goes to ground, both of these connections and where is attaches to ground must be checked. By checking I mean, loosen, remove, clean and reattach securely.
Thanks for you input but I have ruled out the switches with jumper wire. I now can hear a click when I turn the key but nothing else.
-bobby
#6
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Going to assume that your battery is good, but shouldn't rule out a bad battery. Wouldn't be the first one that broke down 15 minutes after it seemed good. Take a voltage reading when you turn the switch from run to start. If reading goes below 8 volts charge battery and try again. Same second time you'll probably need to replace battery. If it is good jump accross two large terminals on the solenoid. If engine turns over we can assume starter is good. You don't say whether you have a 3 or 4 post solenoid. If you have a 3 post solenoid the ground is through the solenoid housing. Have you removed the solenoid, clean the surface where it is mounted to the chassis and the chassis itself? This must be mounted very clean and tight. I'm still betting on a loose or bad connection, not a component problem. If none of this helps go through this procedure which LawnRanger and I have put together, to pinpoint electrical starting problems.
I wrote this procedure with tractor style mowers in mind but this works on zero turn mowers as well. For a zero turn mower, the steering levers must be out, parking brake engaged and the PTO switch in the off position. Some mowers have an operator presence switch in the seat and you may need an assistant to sit in the seat while performing the following tests.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things:
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions. Ahem.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and test/verify everything.
Remember, I cannot see what you are doing. You are the eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools I will ask you to use are a test light and a multimeter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, make sure the parking brake is engaged and the PTO switch is in the off position. Physically remove the negative battery cable first and then the positive battery cable and clean both the battery terminals and cable connectors with a wire brush. Reinstall cables after cleaning starting with the positive first and then the negative. Next, turn the key to the run position, check all fuses with a grounded test light should light on both sides of fuse. Check battery voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Believe it or not, this first step will take the most amount of time, usually around five minutes and the rest of the steps can be accomplished in under a minute.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show battery voltage on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring. You should have battery voltage on this small solenoid wire when the key switch is held in the start position.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). You should have battery voltage on this terminal when the key is held in the start position.
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again). You should have battery voltage during this test.
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery. Just like the battery, make sure connections are clean and tight. Very Important!
This procedure is a simple starting point and there is more to it so after you have gone through each of the above steps, let me know what happened when you performed each test. At that point I will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are the eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible. Some lawnmowers use a relay in the starter control circuit so keep that in mind.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. I prefer to use voltage drop tests but some people get too confused over this subject so in an effort to keep it simple, for now, just follow the procedure and report back with your findings.
I wrote this procedure with tractor style mowers in mind but this works on zero turn mowers as well. For a zero turn mower, the steering levers must be out, parking brake engaged and the PTO switch in the off position. Some mowers have an operator presence switch in the seat and you may need an assistant to sit in the seat while performing the following tests.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things:
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions. Ahem.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and test/verify everything.
Remember, I cannot see what you are doing. You are the eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools I will ask you to use are a test light and a multimeter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, make sure the parking brake is engaged and the PTO switch is in the off position. Physically remove the negative battery cable first and then the positive battery cable and clean both the battery terminals and cable connectors with a wire brush. Reinstall cables after cleaning starting with the positive first and then the negative. Next, turn the key to the run position, check all fuses with a grounded test light should light on both sides of fuse. Check battery voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Believe it or not, this first step will take the most amount of time, usually around five minutes and the rest of the steps can be accomplished in under a minute.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show battery voltage on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring. You should have battery voltage on this small solenoid wire when the key switch is held in the start position.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). You should have battery voltage on this terminal when the key is held in the start position.
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again). You should have battery voltage during this test.
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery. Just like the battery, make sure connections are clean and tight. Very Important!
This procedure is a simple starting point and there is more to it so after you have gone through each of the above steps, let me know what happened when you performed each test. At that point I will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are the eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible. Some lawnmowers use a relay in the starter control circuit so keep that in mind.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. I prefer to use voltage drop tests but some people get too confused over this subject so in an effort to keep it simple, for now, just follow the procedure and report back with your findings.
#7
B
bertsmobile1
There are several relays that will click so that means absolutely nothing to us.
We are not there so saying you eliminated some part of the wiring with a jumper is no help unless we know where you jumped to and from with what size jumper lead.
As Rivets has chimed in with a systematic plan, I will not confuse you any further by introducing an alternative method of doing the same thing, so do as per instructions.
B
bertsmobile1
Thanks for you input but I have ruled out the switches with jumper wire. I now can hear a click when I turn the key but nothing else.
-bobby
There are several relays that will click so that means absolutely nothing to us.
We are not there so saying you eliminated some part of the wiring with a jumper is no help unless we know where you jumped to and from with what size jumper lead.
As Rivets has chimed in with a systematic plan, I will not confuse you any further by introducing an alternative method of doing the same thing, so do as per instructions.
#8
Micah Haarhoff
Micah Haarhoff
Put a screw drive across the solenoid terminals and see if it turns.
#9
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Bobby,
Get out the operators manual, find the wiring diagram. The relay with green and red/yellow wires is the cranking relay. It is located under the control panel close to the keyswitch. When all the safety circuits are correctly set, the electronic control module will ground the relay and allow it to send power to the engine starter solenoid.
Suggestions:
Charge the battery.
Check the ground terminals that are connected to one of the engine mounting bolts.
Check the battery terminals.
Unplug the electrical connector to the electronic control module for dirt/corrosion. Disconnect the battery positive before cleaning these terminals.
Unplug each electrical connector and inspect for dirt and corrosion.
Cranking relays are problematic and your machine may be due for a new one.
Keyswitches can also be problematic, but not to the extent that the cranking relays can be.
Stop washing the machine if you do, all electrical connectors are open and unprotected and water causes problems in these connectors.
When you get the engine to crank and run, check the battery voltage with the engine at WOT, should be around 14.4 volts.
There is a possibility that the starter motor mounted solenoid could be the problem.
The seat switch is another possibility.
Depending on the engine installed, jumping terminals can be dangerous to the engine electronics.
Have fun!!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Get out the operators manual, find the wiring diagram. The relay with green and red/yellow wires is the cranking relay. It is located under the control panel close to the keyswitch. When all the safety circuits are correctly set, the electronic control module will ground the relay and allow it to send power to the engine starter solenoid.
Suggestions:
Charge the battery.
Check the ground terminals that are connected to one of the engine mounting bolts.
Check the battery terminals.
Unplug the electrical connector to the electronic control module for dirt/corrosion. Disconnect the battery positive before cleaning these terminals.
Unplug each electrical connector and inspect for dirt and corrosion.
Cranking relays are problematic and your machine may be due for a new one.
Keyswitches can also be problematic, but not to the extent that the cranking relays can be.
Stop washing the machine if you do, all electrical connectors are open and unprotected and water causes problems in these connectors.
When you get the engine to crank and run, check the battery voltage with the engine at WOT, should be around 14.4 volts.
There is a possibility that the starter motor mounted solenoid could be the problem.
The seat switch is another possibility.
Depending on the engine installed, jumping terminals can be dangerous to the engine electronics.
Have fun!!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#10
B
Bobby Boyd
B
Bobby Boyd
Thanks guys for you help in this matter. Still haven't got it started but will continue to trouble shoot.
Let me mention one other problem I have had over the last 3 months. There have been a few times in the past after starting the engine and engaging the pto the blade doesn't start spinning. I disengage the pto and re-engage the blades start to spin. I am wondering if this might be tied into my engine start issue I am having now?
-bobby
Let me mention one other problem I have had over the last 3 months. There have been a few times in the past after starting the engine and engaging the pto the blade doesn't start spinning. I disengage the pto and re-engage the blades start to spin. I am wondering if this might be tied into my engine start issue I am having now?
-bobby
#11
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Yes, on many pieces of equipment the PTO switch is part of the starting circuit. They could be related, but we don't know, because we are not there. At this point you need to go through an electrical troubleshooting procedure to diagnosis your problem. Give us results in very clear and concise terms and we will help you move forward. As I said earlier, you cannot assume or skip any steps when doing electrical troubleshooting. Something as simple as a dirty connector could cause a major problem for the troubleshooter.
#12
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Bobby,
I don't think you have quite got how things work.
You come to us with a problem you have but we can not see nor hear.
We ask you some questions that we need to know so we can help you sort out your problem in an efficient manner.
Or we ask you to do things and tell us what happened when you did them.
Without this feed back we can do little more than throw random ideas at you, most of which will be our own "pet" problem.
You have not answered any of the questions Rivits asked nor told me what you jumped from where to get to the conclusion that all the wiring is good.
If you are not going to do this then you may as well go down to the parts shop and buy a new :-
battery
ignition switch
starter motor
PTO switch
wiring loom
all wiring relays
ignition module
Thus spend several hundreds when all you needed to do was clean a contact.
Your mower, your money, your hands. your time, your decision.
I don't think you have quite got how things work.
You come to us with a problem you have but we can not see nor hear.
We ask you some questions that we need to know so we can help you sort out your problem in an efficient manner.
Or we ask you to do things and tell us what happened when you did them.
Without this feed back we can do little more than throw random ideas at you, most of which will be our own "pet" problem.
You have not answered any of the questions Rivits asked nor told me what you jumped from where to get to the conclusion that all the wiring is good.
If you are not going to do this then you may as well go down to the parts shop and buy a new :-
battery
ignition switch
starter motor
PTO switch
wiring loom
all wiring relays
ignition module
Thus spend several hundreds when all you needed to do was clean a contact.
Your mower, your money, your hands. your time, your decision.
#13
B
Bobby Boyd
Wow! I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone that replied to my recent mower issue and I apologize. I work shift work and have not been able to get to it just yet. I have made copies of all replies and will start troubling shooting tomorrow Monday February 7th weather permitting. It looks like snow showers during the day so may have to wait for a warmer and better day.
I just want to say that this forum has helped me many times and I am grateful to those that have given me help.
-bobby
B
Bobby Boyd
Bobby,
I don't think you have quite got how things work.
You come to us with a problem you have but we can not see nor hear.
We ask you some questions that we need to know so we can help you sort out your problem in an efficient manner.
Or we ask you to do things and tell us what happened when you did them.
Without this feed back we can do little more than throw random ideas at you, most of which will be our own "pet" problem.
You have not answered any of the questions Rivits asked nor told me what you jumped from where to get to the conclusion that all the wiring is good.
If you are not going to do this then you may as well go down to the parts shop and buy a new :-
battery
ignition switch
starter motor
PTO switch
wiring loom
all wiring relays
ignition module
Thus spend several hundreds when all you needed to do was clean a contact.
Your mower, your money, your hands. your time, your decision.
Wow! I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone that replied to my recent mower issue and I apologize. I work shift work and have not been able to get to it just yet. I have made copies of all replies and will start troubling shooting tomorrow Monday February 7th weather permitting. It looks like snow showers during the day so may have to wait for a warmer and better day.
I just want to say that this forum has helped me many times and I am grateful to those that have given me help.
-bobby
#14
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
No one is upset.
But to get results we need to work together as a team.
Every one here wants you to be able to fix your mower with the minimum time and expense.
But to get results we need to work together as a team.
Every one here wants you to be able to fix your mower with the minimum time and expense.
#15
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
About the only way to upset the experts is to either post about a problem, then get upset if they don't have a reply within a couple hours. Or the other way is to try to tell the experts they don't know what they are talking about.
One will get you snapped at, the other will get you picked up by your belt loops, and thrown out the door, and the garage door slammed down behind you.
One will get you snapped at, the other will get you picked up by your belt loops, and thrown out the door, and the garage door slammed down behind you.
#16
B
bertsmobile1
gees,
I hope you don't own a gun
The wors't my ex-cusomers get is having their phone number put into the banned list and me never replying to the messages.:laughing:
B
bertsmobile1
About the only way to upset the experts is to either post about a problem, then get upset if they don't have a reply within a couple hours. Or the other way is to try to tell the experts they don't know what they are talking about.
One will get you snapped at, the other will get you picked up by your belt loops, and thrown out the door, and the garage door slammed down behind you.
gees,
I hope you don't own a gun
The wors't my ex-cusomers get is having their phone number put into the banned list and me never replying to the messages.:laughing:
#17
Micah Haarhoff
My guess is she does.........:laughing:
Micah Haarhoff
gees,
I hope you don't own a gun
The wors't my ex-cusomers get is having their phone number put into the banned list and me never replying to the messages.:laughing:
My guess is she does.........:laughing:
#18
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Bobby, not upset, just don't like additions without reason. By adding other possibilities without first testing just confuses things for everyone. We understand that many do not have time to follow through in a timely manor, but we want to help you, so you must help us. Go through the procedure and post back with the results. From these we will have a better picture of what you have and how to proceed. You are tackling the toughest problem, (electrical) that a mechanic has to deal with and many times it is not an easy diagnosis. At this point just report back hard facts and we will give you directions on how to proceed.
Micah, I don't know how your post has anything to do with this thread, your immaturity is showing again. Read and follow your signature before posting.
Micah, I don't know how your post has anything to do with this thread, your immaturity is showing again. Read and follow your signature before posting.
#20
John R
Glad to see you got it fixed, what a great bunch we have on here.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
John R
Problem was a bad relay!
Glad to see you got it fixed, what a great bunch we have on here.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
#21
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
The majority of Scag machines have a cranking relay. when all the safety circuit parameters are correct, the electronic control module will allow a ground path for the cranking relay to close when power from the key switch in the start position goes to the cranking relay.
When a Scag with a cranking relay has a starting problem and the engine is cranked over for prolonged periods of time, the contacts in the relay get burned.
I keep a spare in my trailer along with the tools to remove the panel as the relay is under the panel close to the key switch.
When a Scag with a cranking relay has a starting problem and the engine is cranked over for prolonged periods of time, the contacts in the relay get burned.
I keep a spare in my trailer along with the tools to remove the panel as the relay is under the panel close to the key switch.
#22
B
Bobby Boyd
B
Bobby Boyd
Replaced relay and thought had problem solved. Mowed twice with mower. After mowing yesterday parked in front of garden shed and blew the mower off. After about an hour decided I would park it in the shed and guess what? Turned the key nothing. No crank just like before. So I left it set out overnight as couldn't move 1350 pound mower by myself. Got on it early this afternoon and she cranked right up. Go figure. I don't know if this is another relay issue or something cooled down overnight and let it startup today. I am beginning to wonder about scag quality control and their mowers in general. I had a john deere for 20 years and never had a problem. I may be looking to sell this thing and get and look for what I hope would be a better machine.