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What should I replace my Kohler Courage 25 twin with????
#1
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
I own a 2012 Cub Cadet riding mower that has a bad Kohler Courage 25 725cc twin cylinder engine in it. Not happy that the Kohler engine failed with light use at 154 hours on the meter. It needs both heads and both pistons replaced so instead of rebuilding it I thought I'd see what else I could find to replace it with. I'm looking for something used but is known to be a bulletproof engine. Thanks in advance!
#2
B
Bertrrr
B
Bertrrr
Anything close that has the same bolt hole footprint should work , I've used Kawasaki to replace a kohler before and it worked well, you will need the same sized diameter Crankshaft for the clutch and make sure the exhaust will have enough room to sit in that spot.
#3
V
VegetiveSteam
V
VegetiveSteam
Okay I have to ask. What happened that it needs two pistons and two heads? It's just unusual that it would fail both sides at the same time.
You're probably not really looking for another Kohler at this point but the Kohler 7000 series engine would let you use your existing exhaust so you wouldn't have to fabricate something. Anything you use is going to need some wiring modification.
You're probably not really looking for another Kohler at this point but the Kohler 7000 series engine would let you use your existing exhaust so you wouldn't have to fabricate something. Anything you use is going to need some wiring modification.
#4
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
Thanks for the info!Anything close that has the same bolt hole footprint should work , I've used Kawasaki to replace a kohler before and it worked well, you will need the same sized diameter Crankshaft for the clutch and make sure the exhaust will have enough room to sit in that spot.
#5
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
I was out mowing and it started running rough then quit. It wouldn't start back up I checked all the usual and obvious things but it wouldn't restart. Checked oil it was good... I'm very meticulous about oil changes and maintaining the mower so not sure exactly what happened. Took it to my local dealership and they said it had two scorched pistons, valve was stuck on one cylinder and push rod and head damage to the other cylinder. So here I am looking for solutions that won't come back to bite me.Okay I have to ask. What happened that it needs two pistons and two heads? It's just unusual that it would fail both sides at the same time.
You're probably not really looking for another Kohler at this point but the Kohler 7000 series engine would let you use your existing exhaust so you wouldn't have to fabricate something. Anything you use is going to need some wiring modification.
#6
B
Bertrrr
B
Bertrrr
I think that model courage is badly designed , something came apart internally - that's what happened to the one I had - did a little digging and found out it was common with that motor to fail like this
#7
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
Unfortunately I found that out too. I need to find something other than the Courage line up.I think that model courage is badly designed , something came apart internally - that's what happened to the one I had - did a little digging and found out it was common with that motor to fail like this
#8
B
bertsmobile1
Unless the mower sufferred a catastrophic oil loss or injested a pile of solid items the engine should not have that much damage
I have repaired several engines where one of the screws that hold the butterfly in position have been sucked into the engine and all they needed was removal of the remains of the screws and a bit of smoothing out . And one of these "had problems starting " for several years.
Now a similar problem ended up being young children "helping daddy" by pouring a dirt-water "oil" mix into the engine and another one was rocks dropped into the air ram by little fingers as well but th one that floored me was the kids that "cleaned " the pre-filter by pouring water through it till all of the dirt went away, while it was still in the mower , you got to love the little darlings .
So I for one would like a second opinion .
If you have maintained the engine as you have posted that mower should have been good for 30 + years .
B
bertsmobile1
That does not gellI was out mowing and it started running rough then quit. It wouldn't start back up I checked all the usual and obvious things but it wouldn't restart. Checked oil it was good... I'm very meticulous about oil changes and maintaining the mower so not sure exactly what happened. Took it to my local dealership and they said it had two scorched pistons, valve was stuck on one cylinder and push rod and head damage to the other cylinder. So here I am looking for solutions that won't come back to bite me.
Unless the mower sufferred a catastrophic oil loss or injested a pile of solid items the engine should not have that much damage
I have repaired several engines where one of the screws that hold the butterfly in position have been sucked into the engine and all they needed was removal of the remains of the screws and a bit of smoothing out . And one of these "had problems starting " for several years.
Now a similar problem ended up being young children "helping daddy" by pouring a dirt-water "oil" mix into the engine and another one was rocks dropped into the air ram by little fingers as well but th one that floored me was the kids that "cleaned " the pre-filter by pouring water through it till all of the dirt went away, while it was still in the mower , you got to love the little darlings .
So I for one would like a second opinion .
If you have maintained the engine as you have posted that mower should have been good for 30 + years .
#9
M
MParr
Don’t take the word of the dealer at face value. Have the mechanic show you exactly what is broken.
M
MParr
If the block is in good shape, I would rebuild it.I own a 2012 Cub Cadet riding mower that has a bad Kohler Courage 25 725cc twin cylinder engine in it. Not happy that the Kohler engine failed with light use at 154 hours on the meter. It needs both heads and both pistons replaced so instead of rebuilding it I thought I'd see what else I could find to replace it with. I'm looking for something used but is known to be a bulletproof engine. Thanks in advance!
Don’t take the word of the dealer at face value. Have the mechanic show you exactly what is broken.
#10
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
Thanks for the reply! I took it to a small engine repair shop this week and diagnosis is the same as dealer. The small engine shop said the Kohler's Courage motors were junk and had countless issues and Kohler replaced it with the 7000 series... a better engine.That does not gell
Unless the mower sufferred a catastrophic oil loss or injested a pile of solid items the engine should not have that much damage
I have repaired several engines where one of the screws that hold the butterfly in position have been sucked into the engine and all they needed was removal of the remains of the screws and a bit of smoothing out . And one of these "had problems starting " for several years.
Now a similar problem ended up being young children "helping daddy" by pouring a dirt-water "oil" mix into the engine and another one was rocks dropped into the air ram by little fingers as well but th one that floored me was the kids that "cleaned " the pre-filter by pouring water through it till all of the dirt went away, while it was still in the mower , you got to love the little darlings .
So I for one would like a second opinion .
If you have maintained the engine as you have posted that mower should have been good for 30 + years .
#11
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
Thanks for the reply and input! I took it to a small engine repair shop this week and diagnosis is the same as dealer. He showed me all the damaged parts. The small engine shop said the Kohler's Courage VTwin engines were junk, had countless issues and a bad reputation. He said Kohler replaced it with the 7000 series... a better engine. I think I'd be better off finding a 7000 series or comparable before rebuilding a poorly designed engine.If the block is in good shape, I would rebuild it.
Don’t take the word of the dealer at face value. Have the mechanic show you exactly what is broken.
#12
M
MParr
M
MParr
You are on the right track.Thanks for the reply and input! I took it to a small engine repair shop this week and diagnosis is the same as dealer. He showed me all the damaged parts. The small engine shop said the Kohler's Courage VTwin engines were junk, had countless issues and a bad reputation. He said Kohler replaced it with the 7000 series... a better engine. I think I'd be better off finding a 7000 series or comparable before rebuilding a poorly designed engine.
#13
Tiger Small Engine
1) bolt pattern measurements
2) engine crankshaft width and length
3) how the muffler fits
4) the wiring, plugs right up vs hard wiring
5) the physical size of engine dimensions
So it is not as easy as throwing an engine in there. Takes research and planning.
Tiger Small Engine
The Kohler Courage single cylinder is even worse than the twin. Good you got a second opinion. To exchange the engine and make sure it is compatible the following things are important:You are on the right track.
1) bolt pattern measurements
2) engine crankshaft width and length
3) how the muffler fits
4) the wiring, plugs right up vs hard wiring
5) the physical size of engine dimensions
So it is not as easy as throwing an engine in there. Takes research and planning.
#14
S
slomo
S
slomo
Sounds like an over heated engine.I was out mowing and it started running rough then quit. It wouldn't start back up I checked all the usual and obvious things but it wouldn't restart. Checked oil it was good... I'm very meticulous about oil changes and maintaining the mower so not sure exactly what happened. Took it to my local dealership and they said it had two scorched pistons, valve was stuck on one cylinder and push rod and head damage to the other cylinder. So here I am looking for solutions that won't come back to bite me.
#16
F
firefighter*17
F
firefighter*17
Yep, always cleaned after each use and always stored in my climate controlled shop. Kohler's Courage was just a poorly designed engine. Thanks for the input!Sounds like an over heated engine.
#17
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
Unless you remove the engine shroud, and tins around the cylinders, there is no effective way to remove oil, dirt, grass, etc. from the engine cooling fins and engine case. Book says you are supposed to check under engine shroud once a year. Most rarely if ever get checked. I clean a lot of dirty engines once the shroud is removed.Yep, always cleaned after each use and always stored in my climate controlled shop. Kohler's Courage was just a poorly designed engine. Thanks for the input!
#18
S
slomo
S
slomo
That was what I was getting at. Bet the shroud screw heads are like new.Unless you remove the engine shroud, and tins around the cylinders, there is no effective way to remove oil, dirt, grass, etc. from the engine cooling fins and engine case. Book says you are supposed to check under engine shroud once a year. Most rarely if ever get checked. I clean a lot of dirty engines once the shroud is removed.
#19
V
VegetiveSteam
The problem for the Courage Twin Cylinder engine is it shared its name with the Courage Single cylinder engine which was without a doubt not Kohler’s best work. But’s it also why Kohler took care of failed Courage Single Cylinder engines far outside of their warranty period. Many years after in fact.
Like I said, yours failed so this really won’t mean much to you, but the Courage Twin Cylinder engine was a good engine. It wasn’t without a few nuisance issues when it first came out, but it was not known for major failures.
I’ll admit I am somewhat biased as I represented Kohler for 27 years, but I also have nothing to gain from defending them. Like I mentioned before, the Courage Single Cylinder engine gave Courage a bad name and too many simply hear the word Courage and regardless of whether it’s a single or a twin cylinder it gets tagged as junk and nothing could be further from the truth for the twin.
Whether it's a Kohler, Briggs, Kawasaki or Honda, if an engine runs from brand new for an hour without issue, and then has a catastrophic failure at 300 hours it is rarely the fault of the engine.
I will step down from my soapbox now.
V
VegetiveSteam
I would agree. At this point trying to rebuild this engine, if it indeed has failed as described, would not be the way to go. Your engine failed so my opinion really doesn’t help your issue, but I would have to strongly disagree with your mechanic’s assessment of the Kohler Courage Twin cylinder engine.Thanks for the reply and input! I took it to a small engine repair shop this week and diagnosis is the same as dealer. He showed me all the damaged parts. The small engine shop said the Kohler's Courage VTwin engines were junk, had countless issues and a bad reputation. He said Kohler replaced it with the 7000 series... a better engine. I think I'd be better off finding a 7000 series or comparable before rebuilding a poorly designed engine.
The problem for the Courage Twin Cylinder engine is it shared its name with the Courage Single cylinder engine which was without a doubt not Kohler’s best work. But’s it also why Kohler took care of failed Courage Single Cylinder engines far outside of their warranty period. Many years after in fact.
Like I said, yours failed so this really won’t mean much to you, but the Courage Twin Cylinder engine was a good engine. It wasn’t without a few nuisance issues when it first came out, but it was not known for major failures.
I’ll admit I am somewhat biased as I represented Kohler for 27 years, but I also have nothing to gain from defending them. Like I mentioned before, the Courage Single Cylinder engine gave Courage a bad name and too many simply hear the word Courage and regardless of whether it’s a single or a twin cylinder it gets tagged as junk and nothing could be further from the truth for the twin.
Whether it's a Kohler, Briggs, Kawasaki or Honda, if an engine runs from brand new for an hour without issue, and then has a catastrophic failure at 300 hours it is rarely the fault of the engine.
I will step down from my soapbox now.
#20
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
As some one with an engineering back ground I have a lot of admiration for the Courage singles, a brilliant design that suffered badly from a modification to make it cheaper but mainly from non mantiance amplified by bigotry and ignorance
So yes the ACR's can fail, as do the ones on the Inteks but at a much lower rate and after a while Kohler fixed that
OTOH replacing a failed cam is a 45 minute job done with the mower in the engine
Replacing the cam on an Intek is a 4 hour job if you are lucky, engine out of mower
If the blower housing came off every season to clean the fins then the owners of the few that loosen to closure plate bolts should have seen this & tightened them
However I have had more than one come in "making a funny noise " or "cranks slow " where the heads of 2 or 3 bolts had been completely ground off by the flywheel
And nearly all of these needed nothing more than a new bolt or 2 and a drop of loctite to be as good as new .
I have welded 3 engines where they did crack but these were all high high hour machines.
When the crack manifested itself Husqvarna dumped thousands of mowers they pulled off the US market down here in OZ heavily discounted
I have 22 courages that are sequential & all have the same engine serial so they were all from the same batch
Only 1 of these developed the crack.
The final "flaw" is Kohler engineers failed to appreciate just how lazy, cheap & stupid Americans are
Thus You tube is chockers with videos on how to fix the leaky rocker cover gasket .
How do you fix it ?
Easy
Shove your power driver up some where that will give you the least nutritional benefit and perhaps the most pleasure.
Do the nuts up with your fingers and only to the correct torque.
A new gasket every time and it will not leak
Done up with a power driver the nut gets over tightened which cuts the gasket so it leaks and double this if you reuse an old chopped up one with a sliver of silicon over the top .
The said same "highly flawed total junk" engine is made in the tens of thousands by Kohler China and is the backbone of the EU & Asia where owners are obviously more intelligent than the average US idiot .
BEcaus of the dumping of models in OZ by Husqvarna I have far more Kohler engines in my service run than any other brand yet my biggest engine failure by far is head gaskets in Inteks which is generally around the 5 to 10 mark every season
The second biggest engine failure is broken ACR's on inteks which is running at 2 to 3 a season
So yes the ACR's can fail, as do the ones on the Inteks but at a much lower rate and after a while Kohler fixed that
OTOH replacing a failed cam is a 45 minute job done with the mower in the engine
Replacing the cam on an Intek is a 4 hour job if you are lucky, engine out of mower
If the blower housing came off every season to clean the fins then the owners of the few that loosen to closure plate bolts should have seen this & tightened them
However I have had more than one come in "making a funny noise " or "cranks slow " where the heads of 2 or 3 bolts had been completely ground off by the flywheel
And nearly all of these needed nothing more than a new bolt or 2 and a drop of loctite to be as good as new .
I have welded 3 engines where they did crack but these were all high high hour machines.
When the crack manifested itself Husqvarna dumped thousands of mowers they pulled off the US market down here in OZ heavily discounted
I have 22 courages that are sequential & all have the same engine serial so they were all from the same batch
Only 1 of these developed the crack.
The final "flaw" is Kohler engineers failed to appreciate just how lazy, cheap & stupid Americans are
Thus You tube is chockers with videos on how to fix the leaky rocker cover gasket .
How do you fix it ?
Easy
Shove your power driver up some where that will give you the least nutritional benefit and perhaps the most pleasure.
Do the nuts up with your fingers and only to the correct torque.
A new gasket every time and it will not leak
Done up with a power driver the nut gets over tightened which cuts the gasket so it leaks and double this if you reuse an old chopped up one with a sliver of silicon over the top .
The said same "highly flawed total junk" engine is made in the tens of thousands by Kohler China and is the backbone of the EU & Asia where owners are obviously more intelligent than the average US idiot .
BEcaus of the dumping of models in OZ by Husqvarna I have far more Kohler engines in my service run than any other brand yet my biggest engine failure by far is head gaskets in Inteks which is generally around the 5 to 10 mark every season
The second biggest engine failure is broken ACR's on inteks which is running at 2 to 3 a season
#21
V
VegetiveSteam
V
VegetiveSteam
Just curious here. Are you saying the Courage single is or was (it hasn't been built since 2018) built in China?As some one with an engineering back ground I have a lot of admiration for the Courage singles, a brilliant design that suffered badly from a modification to make it cheaper but mainly from non mantiance amplified by bigotry and ignorance
So yes the ACR's can fail, as do the ones on the Inteks but at a much lower rate and after a while Kohler fixed that
OTOH replacing a failed cam is a 45 minute job done with the mower in the engine
Replacing the cam on an Intek is a 4 hour job if you are lucky, engine out of mower
If the blower housing came off every season to clean the fins then the owners of the few that loosen to closure plate bolts should have seen this & tightened them
However I have had more than one come in "making a funny noise " or "cranks slow " where the heads of 2 or 3 bolts had been completely ground off by the flywheel
And nearly all of these needed nothing more than a new bolt or 2 and a drop of loctite to be as good as new .
I have welded 3 engines where they did crack but these were all high high hour machines.
When the crack manifested itself Husqvarna dumped thousands of mowers they pulled off the US market down here in OZ heavily discounted
I have 22 courages that are sequential & all have the same engine serial so they were all from the same batch
Only 1 of these developed the crack.
The final "flaw" is Kohler engineers failed to appreciate just how lazy, cheap & stupid Americans are
Thus You tube is chockers with videos on how to fix the leaky rocker cover gasket .
How do you fix it ?
Easy
Shove your power driver up some where that will give you the least nutritional benefit and perhaps the most pleasure.
Do the nuts up with your fingers and only to the correct torque.
A new gasket every time and it will not leak
Done up with a power driver the nut gets over tightened which cuts the gasket so it leaks and double this if you reuse an old chopped up one with a sliver of silicon over the top .
The said same "highly flawed total junk" engine is made in the tens of thousands by Kohler China and is the backbone of the EU & Asia where owners are obviously more intelligent than the average US idiot .
BEcaus of the dumping of models in OZ by Husqvarna I have far more Kohler engines in my service run than any other brand yet my biggest engine failure by far is head gaskets in Inteks which is generally around the 5 to 10 mark every season
The second biggest engine failure is broken ACR's on inteks which is running at 2 to 3 a season
#22
B
bertsmobile1
I am saying that we get mowers down here with new series Kohler Courage engines that are made in the PRC
The new engines do not have the word "courage" on them but they are the same engine in 16, 18, 20 & 22 Hp ratings .
Generally fitted to cheapie ride ons based on the LTH or YTH Husqvarnas selling for $ 2000 to $ 4000 (AUS )
Very thin metal with very thick paint .
Engines have EU pollution stickers on them not USA ones and generally have serial numbers electro etched in the block .
So not the same as a USA built Courage .
B
bertsmobile1
NoJust curious here. Are you saying the Courage single is or was (it hasn't been built since 2018) built in China?
I am saying that we get mowers down here with new series Kohler Courage engines that are made in the PRC
The new engines do not have the word "courage" on them but they are the same engine in 16, 18, 20 & 22 Hp ratings .
Generally fitted to cheapie ride ons based on the LTH or YTH Husqvarnas selling for $ 2000 to $ 4000 (AUS )
Very thin metal with very thick paint .
Engines have EU pollution stickers on them not USA ones and generally have serial numbers electro etched in the block .
So not the same as a USA built Courage .
#23
Tiger Small Engine
Since you represented Kohler for 27 years, can you tell us your job? Sales/marketing, technical advisor, mechanic, engineering, product development, manufacturing, management? The reason I ask is because it sounds like you may have a wealth of knowledge about Kohler in particular. I am a Kohler engine fan, just not the Kohler Courage single specifically.
Tiger Small Engine
VegetiveSteam-I would agree. At this point trying to rebuild this engine, if it indeed has failed as described, would not be the way to go. Your engine failed so my opinion really doesn’t help your issue, but I would have to strongly disagree with your mechanic’s assessment of the Kohler Courage Twin cylinder engine.
The problem for the Courage Twin Cylinder engine is it shared its name with the Courage Single cylinder engine which was without a doubt not Kohler’s best work. But’s it also why Kohler took care of failed Courage Single Cylinder engines far outside of their warranty period. Many years after in fact.
Like I said, yours failed so this really won’t mean much to you, but the Courage Twin Cylinder engine was a good engine. It wasn’t without a few nuisance issues when it first came out, but it was not known for major failures.
I’ll admit I am somewhat biased as I represented Kohler for 27 years, but I also have nothing to gain from defending them. Like I mentioned before, the Courage Single Cylinder engine gave Courage a bad name and too many simply hear the word Courage and regardless of whether it’s a single or a twin cylinder it gets tagged as junk and nothing could be further from the truth for the twin.
Whether it's a Kohler, Briggs, Kawasaki or Honda, if an engine runs from brand new for an hour without issue, and then has a catastrophic failure at 300 hours it is rarely the fault of the engine.
I will step down from my soapbox now.
Since you represented Kohler for 27 years, can you tell us your job? Sales/marketing, technical advisor, mechanic, engineering, product development, manufacturing, management? The reason I ask is because it sounds like you may have a wealth of knowledge about Kohler in particular. I am a Kohler engine fan, just not the Kohler Courage single specifically.
#24
V
VegetiveSteam
V
VegetiveSteam
Technical service and education. Which included training new Kohler technicians, answering technical calls and approving or unfortunately sometimes denying warranties.VegetiveSteam-
Since you represented Kohler for 27 years, can you tell us your job? Sales/marketing, technical advisor, mechanic, engineering, product development, manufacturing, management? The reason I ask is because it sounds like you may have a wealth of knowledge about Kohler in particular. I am a Kohler engine fan, just not the Kohler Courage single specifically.