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Using steel lift rods instead of aluminum
#1
Michael_Gee
Michael_Gee
Hey all,
I have a broken intake pushrod with my Intek/Briggs&Stratton 331777.
About 2 years ago I blew the head gasket. I fixed it and all was well until about 2 weeks ago when aluminum intake rod broke in half. I took off the head and pull the pushrod out, which had broken right in half. Everything looks good and value seats are fine so I was just going to order another lift rod BUT then I watched this (https://youtu.be/NM28FSoUGLQ?t=8m36s). He replaced the intake aluminum rod with a exhaust steel rod for added strength. I also thought this might be a good idea since maybe the steel would only bend next time (and you know there will probably be a next time with these engines) and not break in half like the aluminum. When it broke in half I was a bit worried that a piece might end up in the crankcase where with the steel, this chances of this happening might be lessened.
Other than maybe added cost, I can't see why Briggs & Stratton would not go with all steel pushrods but this also seems to be the norm with everything I've seen.
Anyone have any insite into this metal choice as well as any concerns with me doing this?
Thanks in advance,
Michael
I have a broken intake pushrod with my Intek/Briggs&Stratton 331777.
About 2 years ago I blew the head gasket. I fixed it and all was well until about 2 weeks ago when aluminum intake rod broke in half. I took off the head and pull the pushrod out, which had broken right in half. Everything looks good and value seats are fine so I was just going to order another lift rod BUT then I watched this (https://youtu.be/NM28FSoUGLQ?t=8m36s). He replaced the intake aluminum rod with a exhaust steel rod for added strength. I also thought this might be a good idea since maybe the steel would only bend next time (and you know there will probably be a next time with these engines) and not break in half like the aluminum. When it broke in half I was a bit worried that a piece might end up in the crankcase where with the steel, this chances of this happening might be lessened.
Other than maybe added cost, I can't see why Briggs & Stratton would not go with all steel pushrods but this also seems to be the norm with everything I've seen.
Anyone have any insite into this metal choice as well as any concerns with me doing this?
Thanks in advance,
Michael
#2
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
There has been a lot of discussion about the aluminum push rod. B&S uses aluminum push rods on the rocker arm which is operating the valve involved in compression release. This is NOT for cost reasons. The Intake valve on Intek and the Exhaust valve on V twin Vanguards. Several have used steel as replacement with no apparent problem. HOWEVER, if you broke a push rod in the middle then the problem was not strength. Most likely you will find that the valve guide has moved up and is hitting the valve spring keeper. IF the pushrod didn't break, something else would, usually the rocker arm.
The cause of this is usually a cooling problem, plugged cooling fins and or cooling shroud. The guide should not extend more than 1/8" above the head casting. B&S says the only fix for that condition is a new head. I have a fix however which has been used by dozens over the last several years.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
The cause of this is usually a cooling problem, plugged cooling fins and or cooling shroud. The guide should not extend more than 1/8" above the head casting. B&S says the only fix for that condition is a new head. I have a fix however which has been used by dozens over the last several years.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
#3
B
bertsmobile1
In theory, the alloy rod will expand at the same rate as the alloy block so the valve lash remains constant.
2nd reason is to reduce the inertia but that should not be a problem sub 4000rpm, sort of becomes important at 9000 rpm.
More of the mowers I service have used exhaust pushrods from old dead engines on the inlets than the original alloy ones.
B
bertsmobile1
Hey all,
I have a broken intake pushrod with my Intek/Briggs&Stratton 331777.
About 2 years ago I blew the head gasket. I fixed it and all was well until about 2 weeks ago when aluminum intake rod broke in half. I took off the head and pull the pushrod out, which had broken right in half. Everything looks good and value seats are fine so I was just going to order another lift rod BUT then I watched this (https://youtu.be/NM28FSoUGLQ?t=8m36s). He replaced the intake aluminum rod with a exhaust steel rod for added strength. I also thought this might be a good idea since maybe the steel would only bend next time (and you know there will probably be a next time with these engines) and not break in half like the aluminum. When it broke in half I was a bit worried that a piece might end up in the crankcase where with the steel, this chances of this happening might be lessened.
Other than maybe added cost, I can't see why Briggs & Stratton would not go with all steel pushrods but this also seems to be the norm with everything I've seen.
Anyone have any insite into this metal choice as well as any concerns with me doing this?
Thanks in advance,
Michael
In theory, the alloy rod will expand at the same rate as the alloy block so the valve lash remains constant.
2nd reason is to reduce the inertia but that should not be a problem sub 4000rpm, sort of becomes important at 9000 rpm.
More of the mowers I service have used exhaust pushrods from old dead engines on the inlets than the original alloy ones.
#4
Michael_Gee
Michael_Gee
Really good info. So, follow up.
Cost: Good to know. Just an assumption. I've seen too many little cost saving measures.
Heat: Fins were pretty clean and engine had the right amount of oil.
Guide height: So, from what I found online, which I can't say is definitive, looking inside the valve chamber the valve guides aren't sunken. I have calipers so I can measure that but I figured an image might show more (See attached images)
I have a fix: What's the fix? I saw that you can pin the valve guide but I also here that's a temporary solution.
Cost: Good to know. Just an assumption. I've seen too many little cost saving measures.
Heat: Fins were pretty clean and engine had the right amount of oil.
Guide height: So, from what I found online, which I can't say is definitive, looking inside the valve chamber the valve guides aren't sunken. I have calipers so I can measure that but I figured an image might show more (See attached images)
I have a fix: What's the fix? I saw that you can pin the valve guide but I also here that's a temporary solution.
Attachments
#5
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
First, my fix is permanent.
Second, if your valve guide hasn't moved, you don't need it.
Third, fix is too long to post here, my address was in previous post.
Walt Conner
Second, if your valve guide hasn't moved, you don't need it.
Third, fix is too long to post here, my address was in previous post.
Walt Conner
#6
Michael_Gee
So, from the looks for the image I supplied, does it look like it's moved? The only reference I have is that video I provided a link to.
Michael_Gee
First, my fix is permanent.
Second, if your valve guide hasn't moved, you don't need it.
Third, fix is too long to post here, my address was in previous post.
Walt Conner
So, from the looks for the image I supplied, does it look like it's moved? The only reference I have is that video I provided a link to.
#7
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Your valve guide position is fine. Most that I see you can't compress the valve spring enough to get the keepers off the valve without pressing the valve and guide back down into the head. Normally seen on twins more than singles. Usually it will bend the pushrod not break it. Most of the broken aluminum push rods I see that break are due to the rod guide plate wearing a groove into the pushrod on the single cylinder engines.
#8
Michael_Gee
Great and thanks for verifying that. You just saved me a whole bunch of money. ?
I'll get those parts ordered right away. It'll be nice not to have to use my backup walk behind anymore.
Michael_Gee
Your valve guide position is fine. Most that I see you can't compress the valve spring enough to get the keepers off the valve without pressing the valve and guide back down into the head. Normally seen on twins more than singles. Usually it will bend the pushrod not break it. Most of the broken aluminum push rods I see that break are due to the rod guide plate wearing a groove into the pushrod on the single cylinder engines.
Great and thanks for verifying that. You just saved me a whole bunch of money. ?
I'll get those parts ordered right away. It'll be nice not to have to use my backup walk behind anymore.
#9
C
CaptFerd
C
CaptFerd
On some models they get rubbed and worn by a plastic bushing or guide they go through and break. Also wear from the cam, lifters, rockers, valves and so on will increase the tappet gap causing the push rods fall out then break or bend and sometimes fall down into the motor. Most engines recommend adjusting them ever so often because of this. My personal opinion is it saves the manufacturer millions to do this and that's the only logical reason for it. I put steel back in and have never had an issue or a return because of it.
Walt conner is a cocky one with a fix for anything posting his bs on multiple sites. Never a solution you gots to email him. Whats up with that. collecting mail addresses are we?
bertsmobile1 - What lawnmower engine revs at 4000 and 9000 RPMs. Dang thats a serious high revving motor. I want one
First, my fix is permanent.
Second, if your valve guide hasn't moved, you don't need it.
Third, fix is too long to post here, my address was in previous post.
Walt Conner
Walt conner is a cocky one with a fix for anything posting his bs on multiple sites. Never a solution you gots to email him. Whats up with that. collecting mail addresses are we?
In theory, the alloy rod will expand at the same rate as the alloy block so the valve lash remains constant.
2nd reason is to reduce the inertia but that should not be a problem sub 4000rpm, sort of becomes important at 9000 rpm.
More of the mowers I service have used exhaust pushrods from old dead engines on the inlets than the original alloy ones.
bertsmobile1 - What lawnmower engine revs at 4000 and 9000 RPMs. Dang thats a serious high revving motor. I want one
#10
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
"Walt conner is a cocky one with a fix for anything posting his bs on multiple sites. Never a solution you gots to email him. Whats up with that. collecting mail addresses are we? "
I sure have no use for your email address or any ones and don't ask me for any of my fixes which do work. Ask bert or any of the people with some knowledge whether they work or not. If you don't know what you are talking about save the space for someone who does.
The reason I ask to contact me directly is clearly stated plus it keeps know nothings from interrupting things, ring a bell?
Walt Conner
I sure have no use for your email address or any ones and don't ask me for any of my fixes which do work. Ask bert or any of the people with some knowledge whether they work or not. If you don't know what you are talking about save the space for someone who does.
The reason I ask to contact me directly is clearly stated plus it keeps know nothings from interrupting things, ring a bell?
Walt Conner
#11
Michael_Gee
Although it's possible your solution would be long, I'd say post it at least one time and then refer other to that original post. The advantage of that is to have it in a public space instead of having to email it each time to people.
So far, my lawn tractor is working flawlessly but time seems to be my enemy with this model but I'll continue to do the proper maintenance with hopes I won't have get into the engine.
Michael_Gee
"Walt conner is a cocky one with a fix for anything posting his bs on multiple sites. Never a solution you gots to email him. Whats up with that. collecting mail addresses are we? "
The reason I ask to contact me directly is clearly stated plus it keeps know nothings from interrupting things, ring a bell?
Walt Conner
Although it's possible your solution would be long, I'd say post it at least one time and then refer other to that original post. The advantage of that is to have it in a public space instead of having to email it each time to people.
So far, my lawn tractor is working flawlessly but time seems to be my enemy with this model but I'll continue to do the proper maintenance with hopes I won't have get into the engine.
#12
B
bertsmobile1
That would be fine if one was sure that the original post would remain on line & accessible and the person with the problem was going to search the archives to read it, most won't .
Then there is the problem of it getting lost in a long line of contradictory post usually by face book experts with next to zero practical hands on knowledge.
Then one has to go back and prove to some clot who gets his jollies ( they are always male ) by tearing down others that you are correct but most of these keyboard heros can not follow logic then they bring up all sorts of totally irrelevent web pages by reputable people that are b not appliciable to prove their case.
Look at all the ho har about synthetic oils, most posted by people who have never studied oil & lubrication for even 1 second.
Or the rubbish about exhaust valve recession from the use of unleaded fuels cause by idiots extrapolating lean burn aero engines running at 20,000 feet or higher to vehicles running on terra firma.
Or ethanol fuels ( which are not petrol ) degrading over time and you will get a tyrade of replies from people why have zero understanding of the physics & chemistry behind it chiming in that is is rubbish cause their second cousins brothers uncle runs his mowers on fuel his grandpappy hid in the cellar during the Civil War to prevent them dam Yankees getting their hands on it and everything runs just fine on it .
Then you get people who misquote you and try to make a case out of it,
Note in Post # 3, I mentioned SUB 40000 rpm mower engines , 4000 rpm being the absolute maximum upper rev limit on most mower engines, note LIMIT, not operating speed.
Which then got misquoted in post # 9 as being a running speed.
Now I usually can not be bothered answering such posts as all it dose is waste my time and inflate the ego of the poster.
You came here with a problem, and were given good advice, namely yes you can use a steel rod but you should find and rectify the problem that is causing your alloy rods to break in the middle because this is a rare situation and indicated a problem elsewhere.
Yet rather than accept this you are now turning the thread to attack the very people who are trying to offer you very valuable assistance, free of charge.
I have little time for such behaviour so this will be the last one of your posts that will get a reply from me.
Good luck with your mower but don't be suprised when the rocker stud pulls out or if the steel rod bounces off and trashed the bottom end, we tried to warn you.
B
bertsmobile1
Although it's possible your solution would be long, I'd say post it at least one time and then refer other to that original post. The advantage of that is to have it in a public space instead of having to email it each time to people.
So far, my lawn tractor is working flawlessly but time seems to be my enemy with this model but I'll continue to do the proper maintenance with hopes I won't have get into the engine.
That would be fine if one was sure that the original post would remain on line & accessible and the person with the problem was going to search the archives to read it, most won't .
Then there is the problem of it getting lost in a long line of contradictory post usually by face book experts with next to zero practical hands on knowledge.
Then one has to go back and prove to some clot who gets his jollies ( they are always male ) by tearing down others that you are correct but most of these keyboard heros can not follow logic then they bring up all sorts of totally irrelevent web pages by reputable people that are b not appliciable to prove their case.
Look at all the ho har about synthetic oils, most posted by people who have never studied oil & lubrication for even 1 second.
Or the rubbish about exhaust valve recession from the use of unleaded fuels cause by idiots extrapolating lean burn aero engines running at 20,000 feet or higher to vehicles running on terra firma.
Or ethanol fuels ( which are not petrol ) degrading over time and you will get a tyrade of replies from people why have zero understanding of the physics & chemistry behind it chiming in that is is rubbish cause their second cousins brothers uncle runs his mowers on fuel his grandpappy hid in the cellar during the Civil War to prevent them dam Yankees getting their hands on it and everything runs just fine on it .
Then you get people who misquote you and try to make a case out of it,
Note in Post # 3, I mentioned SUB 40000 rpm mower engines , 4000 rpm being the absolute maximum upper rev limit on most mower engines, note LIMIT, not operating speed.
Which then got misquoted in post # 9 as being a running speed.
Now I usually can not be bothered answering such posts as all it dose is waste my time and inflate the ego of the poster.
You came here with a problem, and were given good advice, namely yes you can use a steel rod but you should find and rectify the problem that is causing your alloy rods to break in the middle because this is a rare situation and indicated a problem elsewhere.
Yet rather than accept this you are now turning the thread to attack the very people who are trying to offer you very valuable assistance, free of charge.
I have little time for such behaviour so this will be the last one of your posts that will get a reply from me.
Good luck with your mower but don't be suprised when the rocker stud pulls out or if the steel rod bounces off and trashed the bottom end, we tried to warn you.
#13
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Michael Gee .... You guides are in order........... Yes you can use a steel rod in place of the aluminum one....
I do that also.............
Capt. Ferd Bert is referring to racing engines on the higher RPM's.. Racing cranks, cams, Valves ETC ETC.....
I used to race Sprint Karts on oval tracks and you can push 7 to 8 grand in the straight away's on those tracks...... We made better time laps than the stock cars because we weren't sliding around the turns, wasting time..........
Plus Tard Mes Amies ~!~!
I do that also.............
Capt. Ferd Bert is referring to racing engines on the higher RPM's.. Racing cranks, cams, Valves ETC ETC.....
I used to race Sprint Karts on oval tracks and you can push 7 to 8 grand in the straight away's on those tracks...... We made better time laps than the stock cars because we weren't sliding around the turns, wasting time..........
Plus Tard Mes Amies ~!~!
#14
T
Tinkerer200
That original post was a year old. You both have my fix and chose not to defend it?
Walt Conner
T
Tinkerer200
Michael Gee .... You guides are in order........... Yes you can use a steel rod in place of the aluminum one....
I do that also.............
Capt. Ferd Bert is referring to racing engines on the higher RPM's.. Racing cranks, cams, Valves ETC ETC.....
I used to race Sprint Karts on oval tracks and you can push 7 to 8 grand in the straight away's on those tracks...... We made better time laps than the stock cars because we weren't sliding around the turns, wasting time..........
Plus Tard Mes Amies ~!~!
That original post was a year old. You both have my fix and chose not to defend it?
Walt Conner
#15
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Sorry Walt.
I actually did not notice the illinformed Mr Gee, a person who has done nothing but accept the help of others , was calling the expert a bs merchant.
SO for the record Walt did email his fix for loose Briggs guides to me and I tried it on an old head that was going to be kept for spare parts and yes it did work.
And yes it is quite a long passage.
Walt is not one to post bs anywhere and like many on this site has gone to great lengths to help people.
He regularly emails people service manuals that are not readily available on line and I for one have benifited greatly from his presence.
As for using pm & off forum emails.
I do not do it myself as it defeats the whole purpose of an open public forum despite regularly being asked to.
Others are welcome to offer assistance in what ever way they chose what is important is they have done so in the past & continue to do so into the future.
Many of the people on this forums are in franchise arangements which preclude them from posting some things publicly.
In fact if a Stihl franchisee is caught doing this they risk loosing their franchise.
I actually did not notice the illinformed Mr Gee, a person who has done nothing but accept the help of others , was calling the expert a bs merchant.
SO for the record Walt did email his fix for loose Briggs guides to me and I tried it on an old head that was going to be kept for spare parts and yes it did work.
And yes it is quite a long passage.
Walt is not one to post bs anywhere and like many on this site has gone to great lengths to help people.
He regularly emails people service manuals that are not readily available on line and I for one have benifited greatly from his presence.
As for using pm & off forum emails.
I do not do it myself as it defeats the whole purpose of an open public forum despite regularly being asked to.
Others are welcome to offer assistance in what ever way they chose what is important is they have done so in the past & continue to do so into the future.
Many of the people on this forums are in franchise arangements which preclude them from posting some things publicly.
In fact if a Stihl franchisee is caught doing this they risk loosing their franchise.
#17
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Yes I am sorry too... I didn't notice the first part of the thread was a year old........
In fact I was replying to the RPM's of normal engines and racing engines......
I haven't tried your method yet, but I will since I have access to a machine shop.......
Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!
In fact I was replying to the RPM's of normal engines and racing engines......
I haven't tried your method yet, but I will since I have access to a machine shop.......
Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!
#18
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
Note to readers - machine shop work is not required. Suspect trouble maker here was a troll just wanting to stir something up, note number of posts.
Walt Conner
Walt Conner
#19
G
geraldfrank
Walt Conner is a genius, a scholar and a gentleman. Walt sent me the 'fix' which was easy to accomplish, was up and running in a very short time except for having to split the engine to remove the bent push rod. Fixed the #1 Cylinder exhaust valve guide position without having to remove the head. Have put 6 hours on the machine now and is still running like a clock. Intek V-Twin had bent push rods, one broken in the crank case. Stick with aluminum intake push rods -> save your camshaft should one have a dropped push rod in the future. Save yourself grief by checking the valve lash every 25 hours or so.
Thanks Walt
G
geraldfrank
There has been a lot of discussion about the aluminum push rod. B&S uses aluminum push rods on the rocker arm which is operating the valve involved in compression release. This is NOT for cost reasons. The Intake valve on Intek and the Exhaust valve on V twin Vanguards. Several have used steel as replacement with no apparent problem. HOWEVER, if you broke a push rod in the middle then the problem was not strength. Most likely you will find that the valve guide has moved up and is hitting the valve spring keeper. IF the pushrod didn't break, something else would, usually the rocker arm.
The cause of this is usually a cooling problem, plugged cooling fins and or cooling shroud. The guide should not extend more than 1/8" above the head casting. B&S says the only fix for that condition is a new head. I have a fix however which has been used by dozens over the last several years.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
Walt Conner is a genius, a scholar and a gentleman. Walt sent me the 'fix' which was easy to accomplish, was up and running in a very short time except for having to split the engine to remove the bent push rod. Fixed the #1 Cylinder exhaust valve guide position without having to remove the head. Have put 6 hours on the machine now and is still running like a clock. Intek V-Twin had bent push rods, one broken in the crank case. Stick with aluminum intake push rods -> save your camshaft should one have a dropped push rod in the future. Save yourself grief by checking the valve lash every 25 hours or so.
Thanks Walt
#20
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
Thanks but no genus. Just a thrifty (stingy) old man who was challenged when B&S said the only fix was to buy a new head. I have other "thrifty" ideas also. Got a variation for my idea from a contact I sent it to who did not remove the head even.
Walt Conner
Walt Conner
#22
T
Tinkerer200
Please contact at - wconner5 at frontier dot com
T
Tinkerer200
Also would be interested in your fix
Please contact at - wconner5 at frontier dot com
#23
6
69maverick
6
69maverick
Walt how do I contact you. I have some questions on this and other fixesThanks but no genus. Just a thrifty (stingy) old man who was challenged when B&S said the only fix was to buy a new head. I have other "thrifty" ideas also. Got a variation for my idea from a contact I sent it to who did not remove the head even.
Walt Conner
#24
StarTech
StarTech
Walt gave you his email address. You just got to format it properly.Walt how do I contact you. I have some questions on this and other fixes