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Turn uphill or downhill on ZTS?

#1

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Hello, Apologies if this has been discussed but I can’t find it on a search. This is my first post. I live near Maleny Australia. Very high rainfalll over 4 meters/year. My block is not large, only about one acre but has several steep sections including a hill of 15-17 degrees and a ditch of over 30 degrees. So far I have only mowed it with a self-propelled Honda but as I get older I am finding this increasingly difficult.

i just bought a Cub Cadet ZTS1 42 in. At my first mow I could do most of the block without any problems. I didn’t attempt the 30 degree section. I managed to do the 15-17 degree hill with difficulty. As instructed I mowed across the hill and turned upwards but it felt a bit slippery in parts and the inside front wheel was lifting slightly on some turns.

i understand why turning downhill is not recommended for conventional zero turns where the front wheels are completely passive, but does this also apply for ZTS mowers with front wheel steering? Although I am a newbie at this, it actually felt safer turning downhill than uphill. It seems to me that with uphill turns the front wheels are already above the back and lift quite easily. I would be most grateful for the recommendations of experienced ZTS owners/users.

Regards, M


#2

S

Skippydiesel

Have a large industrial zero turn, that uses "tillers" to control power to the rear wheels, speed & direction.

I checked out a photo of your Cub Cadet ZTS1. Veeeeery nice!
  • Does the steering wheel actual move the front wheels ie is it connected? If it does you, will have much better/safer control on slopes than my "traditional" zero turn.
  • If the front wheels are not connected, to the steering ie they are castering, your machine is no safer than mine on slopes.
  • Page 3 - 4 of your operators manual gives some sound advice for operating the machine on slopes.
  • As a general rule, zero turn mowers, are not designed for or do well operating on slopes (yours has a max safe slope of 20 degrees (35%))
  • I am surprised that a modern zero turn does not come with a roll over protection system (ROPS) fitted, especially when you are contemplating working on slopes - consider having one fitted.
  • The best/safest mowers for steep slopes have 4X4 drive and both operator & engine (main weight/mass) are relativly low and within the wheelbase.
  • Tyre pressures are very important, when operating on slopes - a low pressure tyre can suddenly change the machines stability and over she & you may go. Always check & keep the tyres at the recommended inflation.
Looking at the photo of your machine, I would speculate a high centre of gravity and significant weight transfer (due to engine/seat location) when operating on slopes. You asked about turning (found no reference in operator manual) - as I don't know the machine I speculate a turn;
  • Down hill- will be the safest, however weight transfer may cause the rear wheels to lose traction, especially on wet grass, loose surface. If this should happen, do not use your brake(s), change speed setting, just steer straight down the slope, to safer terrain - as the slope reduces, your rear wheels will regain traction.
  • Up hill - weight transfers may result in better rear wheel traction, but may also lift the front wheels, losing some directional control & stability - worst case, off the ground, in an extreme situaton, you could "flip" the machine backwards.
Unless you can organise your cutting pattern to always turn in the safest direction, you will have to consider the less safe option.
It may be worth talking to your dealer about adding ballast weights to the front of your machine, to reduce the tendency to lift, when operating/turning up hill.

Stay safe 😈


#3

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

Skippydiesel said:
Have a large industrial zero turn, that uses "tillers" to control power to the rear wheels, speed & direction.

I checked out a photo of your Cub Cadet ZTS1. Veeeeery nice!
  • Does the steering wheel actual move the front wheels ie is it connected? If it does you, will have much better/safer control on slopes than my "traditional" zero turn.
  • If the front wheels are not connected, to the steering ie they are castering, your machine is no safer than mine on slopes.
  • Page 3 - 4 of your operators manual gives some sound advice for operating the machine on slopes.
  • As a general rule, zero turn mowers, are not designed for or do well operating on slopes (yours has a max safe slope of 20 degrees (35%))
  • I am surprised that a modern zero turn does not come with a roll over protection system (ROPS) fitted, especially when you are contemplating working on slopes - consider having one fitted.
  • The best/safest mowers for steep slopes have 4X4 drive and both operator & engine (main weight/mass) are relativly low and within the wheelbase.
  • Tyre pressures are very important, when operating on slopes - a low pressure tyre can suddenly change the machines stability and over she & you may go. Always check & keep the tyres at the recommended inflation.
Looking at the photo of your machine, I would speculate a high centre of gravity and significant weight transfer (due to engine/seat location) when operating on slopes. You asked about turning (found no reference in operator manual) - as I don't know the machine I speculate a turn;
  • Down hill- will be the safest, however weight transfer may cause the rear wheels to lose traction, especially on wet grass, loose surface. If this should happen, do not use your brake(s), change speed setting, just steer straight down the slope, to safer terrain - as the slope reduces, your rear wheels will regain traction.
  • Up hill - weight transfers may result in better rear wheel traction, but may also lift the front wheels, losing some directional control & stability - worst case, off the ground, in an extreme situaton, you could "flip" the machine backwards.
Unless you can organise your cutting pattern to always turn in the safest direction, you will have to consider the less safe option.
It may be worth talking to your dealer about adding ballast weights to the front of your machine, to reduce the tendency to lift, when operating/turning up hill.

Stay safe 😈
Click to expand...
A good zero turn will hold a hill better than any riding mower, or a zero turn with a steering wheel like this Cub Cadet. You always make turns uphill when mowing across the slope. I have mowed some really steep stuff in the past with zero turns. When it gets too steep you go up and down and slightly shift over for next pass at top and bottom, while maintaining the front end pointed uphill. Good equipment and a competent operator will do the job without 4WD, etc.


#4

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Thanks for the reply Skippydiesel.

The steering wheel does indeed turn the front wheels. This feature and the fact that it is rated to 20 degrees (35% slope) are the main reasons I bought it. Unfortunately it doesn’t come with a roll bar. I will look into an after-market fitting.

Page 19 of my manual states: “Mow across slopes, not up and down. If mowing a slope, start at bottom and work upward to ensure turns are made uphill.” I must admit that this doesn’t make sense to me for the reasons you outlined. To me, turning up hill would seem to make the front more likely to lift.

I have read advice elsewhere to avoid weights to the front as it reduces traction when going downhill.

Cheers, M


#5

S

Skippydiesel

MalaiseMowerMan said:
Thanks for the reply Skippydiesel.

The steering wheel does indeed turn the front wheels. This feature and the fact that it is rated to 20 degrees (35% slope) are the main reasons I bought it. Unfortunately it doesn’t come with a roll bar. I will look into an after-market fitting.

Page 19 of my manual states: “Mow across slopes, not up and down. If mowing a slope, start at bottom and work upward to ensure turns are made uphill.” I must admit that this doesn’t make sense to me for the reasons you outlined. To me, turning up hill would seem to make the front more likely to lift.

I have read advice elsewhere to avoid weights to the front as it reduces traction when going downhill.

Cheers, M
Click to expand...
Sorry, Must have missed page 19 advise, in my quick skim through the Op Manual.
I agree with your comments on turning. However, as I mentioned, turning on a slope has risks either way.

"I have read advice elsewhere to avoid weights to the front as it reduces traction when going downhill."
This is a weight transfer observation - Weight transfer occurs when a body (tractor/car/ human/horse/etc) move up/down a slope. Animals compensate by leaning into the slope - machines do not, in general, have this capacity. Animal or machine, when the weight transfer is such, that the inherant stability & traction of the body is overcome, the body will slide or tumble.
Changing the weight distribution of any machine, will deliver both posative & negative results - it's a compromise! Do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Only you can decide.
My background is in agriculture - we weight (ballast) tractors in diffrent ways ,to achieve a given result depending on the anticipated work, terrain etc. Ballasting is not an exact science (to many variables) and is often a compromise.
My suggestion would be;
IF you are experiencing regular lifting of the front of the machine, as you turn /travel up hill, try putting a temporary weight, about 10kg (1/2 a sandbag ) as far forward as you can. See how this affects both up & down hill performance. If there is an overall benefit, you might investigate a more permanent installation.
Small afterthought - seat position forward & leaning forward, as you turn/travel up hill, will have a small weight transfer/benefit - this may be sufficient to keep the front down and is obviously flexible/movable, like when you walk up/down a slope, so down hill turn/travel will be largely unaffected.
😈


#6

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Skippydiesel said:
Sorry, Must have missed page 19 advise, in my quick skim through the Op Manual.
I agree with your comments on turning. However, as I mentioned, turning on a slope has risks either way.

"I have read advice elsewhere to avoid weights to the front as it reduces traction when going downhill."
This is a weight transfer observation - Weight transfer occurs when a body (tractor/car/ human/horse/etc) move up/down a slope. Animals compensate by leaning into the slope - machines do not, in general, have this capacity. Animal or machine, when the weight transfer is such, that the inherant stability & traction of the body is overcome, the body will slide or tumble.
Changing the weight distribution of any machine, will deliver both posative & negative results - it's a compromise! Do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Only you can decide.
My background is in agriculture - we weight (ballast) tractors in diffrent ways ,to achieve a given result depending on the anticipated work, terrain etc. Ballasting is not an exact science (to many variables) and is often a compromise.
My suggestion would be;
IF you are experiencing regular lifting of the front of the machine, as you turn /travel up hill, try putting a temporary weight, about 10kg (1/2 a sandbag ) as far forward as you can. See how this affects both up & down hill performance. If there is an overall benefit, you might investigate a more permanent installation.
Small afterthought - seat position forward & leaning forward, as you turn/travel up hill, will have a small weight transfer/benefit - this may be sufficient to keep he front down and is obviously flexible/movable, like when you walk up/down a slope, so down hill turn/travel will be largely unaffected.
😈
Click to expand...
I can see there are pros and cons of adding some weight on the front and I am looking at how I can try this.

I can and will try shifting the seat as far forward as possible. I also think that I can get to the top of my slope via a less steep section and then mow straight down so I will try this.

What are your thoughts on mowing obliquely down the hill so as to lengthen the slope and lessen the gradient? My dealer has suggested this.

I really appreciate the comments of those who have replied but I was hoping to hear from some people with the exact same mower to see how they have gone. No takers so far.

Thanks, M


#7

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Tiger Small Engine said:
A good zero turn will hold a hill better than any riding mower, or a zero turn with a steering wheel like this Cub Cadet. You always make turns uphill when mowing across the slope. I have mowed some really steep stuff in the past with zero turns. When it gets too steep you go up and down and slightly shift over for next pass at top and bottom, while maintaining the front end pointed uphill. Good equipment and a competent operator will do the job without 4WD, etc.
Click to expand...
“
A good zero turn will hold a hill better than any riding mower, or a zero turn with a steering wheel like this Cub Cadet.
Click to expand...
I’m interested to know on what grounds you say this. Personal experience or something else? Have you used a zero turn with a steering wheel and synchro steer? The only zero turns I could find with a higher slope rating are the high-end commercial Cub Cadets Which I can’t afford. The steering wheel range of Cub Cadets seem to have been designed specifically for better traction on slopes. Do you think this is just marketing hype?
Thanks, M


#8

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

MalaiseMowerMan said:
“

I’m interested to know on what grounds you say this. Personal experience or something else? Have you used a zero turn with a steering wheel and synchro steer? The only zero turns I could find with a higher slope rating are the high-end commercial Cub Cadets Which I can’t afford. The steering wheel range of Cub Cadets seem to have been designed specifically for better traction on slopes. Do you think this is just marketing hype?
Thanks, M
Click to expand...
Ten years of mowing residential and commercial properties running my own business. Some of it you have to be very careful on and have the right equipment and experience. I would NEVER attempt mowing hills on a riding mower or Cub Cadet zero turn with a steering wheel.


#9

G

GearHead36

A steering wheel ZTR will hold a slope much better than a traditional ZTR with lap bars. I have a Cub Cadet Pro Z 154S. I found it cheap (it needed repairs), and bought it to replace my lap-bar ZTR. The CC had numerous benefits over the mower it replaced, but I bought a mower with the steering wheel configuration just because of it's superior slope holding ability. The CC works MUCH better than my lap-bar ZTR on slopes. My yard has slopes that my lap-bar ZTR struggled with. There were areas that the lap-bar ZTR would try to slide down the slope if I mowed across it. With the CC, I can treat all the slopes on my property like flat ground. I don't have to concern myself with going straight up & down, or where I make turns. Maybe with enough experience you can do as well with a lap-bar ZTR as with a SW ZTR, but most of us don't log hundreds of hours per year on a mower. For us homeowners with sloped yards who mow once a week, the SW ZTR wins.


#10

S

Skippydiesel

In my, limited, experience mowers of the;
  • Mini tractor configuration, tend towards having a quite narrow track (until you get the the real tractors ) which of course makes them less stable on slopes.
  • Zero turn more often have a wide track, however the castering front wheels also tend towards poor cross slope directional stability and the aft mounted engine to potentially dangerous weight transfer when travelling directly up/down.
  • Mowers with high seating positions, are also prone to dangerous weight transfer.
For realy good/safe slope operation, the low slung go-cart style, available with 4x4, is the only way to go.

This is an example (I have no connection with the company) https://www.therazorback.com.au/capabilities

More important points;
  • There is no such thing as a completely stable / safe slope mower, that a person rides in/on. There are only more/less capable units.
  • Human nature - the more stable the mower, the greater the risks/angle of slope, the operator will attempt.


#11

M

MalaiseMowerMan

GearHead36 said:
A steering wheel ZTR will hold a slope much better than a traditional ZTR with lap bars. I have a Cub Cadet Pro Z 154S. I found it cheap (it needed repairs), and bought it to replace my lap-bar ZTR. The CC had numerous benefits over the mower it replaced, but I bought a mower with the steering wheel configuration just because of it's superior slope holding ability. The CC works MUCH better than my lap-bar ZTR on slopes. My yard has slopes that my lap-bar ZTR struggled with. There were areas that the lap-bar ZTR would try to slide down the slope if I mowed across it. With the CC, I can treat all the slopes on my property like flat ground. I don't have to concern myself with going straight up & down, or where I make turns. Maybe with enough experience you can do as well with a lap-bar ZTR as with a SW ZTR, but most of us don't log hundreds of hours per year on a mower. For us homeowners with sloped yards who mow once a week, the SW ZTR wins.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. Good to hear from someone who has experience on both.


#12

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Skippydiesel said:
In my, limited, experience mowers of the;
  • Mini tractor configuration, tend towards having a quite narrow track (until you get the the real tractors ) which of course makes them less stable on slopes.
  • Zero turn more often have a wide track, however the castering front wheels also tend towards poor cross slope directional stability and the aft mounted engine to potentially dangerous weight transfer when travelling directly up/down.
  • Mowers with high seating positions, are also prone to dangerous weight transfer.
For realy good/safe slope operation, the low slung go-cart style, available with 4x4, is the only way to go.

This is an example (I have no connection with the company) https://www.therazorback.com.au/capabilities

More important points;
  • There is no such thing as a completely stable / safe slope mower, that a person rides in/on. There are only more/less capable units.
  • Human nature - the more stable the mower, the greater the risks/angle of slope, the operator will attempt.
Click to expand...
Thanks SD. I’m not trying to see has far I can push the limit; quite the opposite. I’m just trying to find the safest way to mow my block.


#13

S

Skippydiesel

MalaiseMowerMan said:
Thanks SD. I’m not trying to see has far I can push the limit; quite the opposite. I’m just trying to find the safest way to mow my block.
Click to expand...
Not suggesting you are pushing/exploring the limits MMM, just pointing out a, well documented, feature of human behaviour (particularly common in the male of the species).

Without visiting your "block" no one, other than yourself, can make judgement calls on safety - I just hoped to expand your knowledge of what can happen, what equipment is available to mitigate the risk and what precautions may help. There is nothing wrong with your mower - just don't ask it to do something it was not designed for, - it might bite 😈


#14

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

GearHead36 said:
A steering wheel ZTR will hold a slope much better than a traditional ZTR with lap bars. I have a Cub Cadet Pro Z 154S. I found it cheap (it needed repairs), and bought it to replace my lap-bar ZTR. The CC had numerous benefits over the mower it replaced, but I bought a mower with the steering wheel configuration just because of it's superior slope holding ability. The CC works MUCH better than my lap-bar ZTR on slopes. My yard has slopes that my lap-bar ZTR struggled with. There were areas that the lap-bar ZTR would try to slide down the slope if I mowed across it. With the CC, I can treat all the slopes on my property like flat ground. I don't have to concern myself with going straight up & down, or where I make turns. Maybe with enough experience you can do as well with a lap-bar ZTR as with a SW ZTR, but most of us don't log hundreds of hours per year on a mower. For us homeowners with sloped yards who mow once a week, the SW ZTR wins.
Click to expand...

I have never seen a mowing business running a Cub Cadet zero turn with a steering wheel on any hills, NEVER. There has got to be something more to that then my own personal experience.


#15

G

GearHead36

Tiger Small Engine said:
I have never seen a mowing business running a Cub Cadet zero turn with a steering wheel on any hills, NEVER. There has got to be something more to that then my own personal experience.
Click to expand...
Neither have I. I suspect that mowing business that handles hilly properties would use a 4x4 mower of some type. The SW ZTR's, IMO, are an improvement over lap-bar ZTR's, but probably still not good enough for serious hills. My Pro Z154S works great on my property, with it's moderate hills. The local airport has some serious hills surrounding the runways, covered with grass, and I don't think my mower could handle those. Whenever I drive by, I usually wonder what they mow those with.


#16

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Skippydiesel said:
Not suggesting you are pushing/exploring the limits MMM, just pointing out a, well documented, feature of human behaviour (particularly common in the male of the species).

Without visiting your "block" no one, other than yourself, can make judgement calls on safety - I just hoped to expand your knowledge of what can happen, what equipment is available to mitigate the risk and what precautions may help. There is nothing wrong with your mower - just don't ask it to do something it was not designed for, - it might bite 😈
Click to expand...
My intention from the start has been to find the safest way to use my mower whilst staying well within the limits of my gear and my abilities. Your comments have been helpful and appreciated. Cheers, M


#17

M

MalaiseMowerMan

Tiger Small Engine said:
I have never seen a mowing business running a Cub Cadet zero turn with a steering wheel on any hills, NEVER. There has got to be something more to that than my own personal experience.
Click to expand...
I am somewhat confused by this. I live in a very hilly area. I know of several local contractors who use Cub Cadet steering wheel zero turn mowers and have nothing but praise for them. This is one of the reasons I bought one. There are also multiple examples on YouTube.

I get that you don’t like these mowers and that you would never use one. What I don’t understand is whether this is just personal preference, like a Ford driver who would never drive a Chevrolet (Holden where I come from), or if you have a clear reason for not liking them. Rather than repeatedly saying you would never use one, it would be really helpful if you could explain exactly why. For example: Is it something about the design? Do you not like the quality of construction or the reliability? Have you actually used one? If so, did you have a bad experience?

I appreciate and seek other opinions, good and bad, but I find them most helpful when people can explain why they hold their opinions. Regards, M


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