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Tufftorq vs. Hydro-gear (again) - My convo with Tufftorq - comments?

#1

Z

zadok

Yeah so I'm looking for a 20 year machine on a budget! I'm moving to a home with roughly 3/4 acre, mostly flat, with lots of landscaping. So... the inevitable quest of how to take care of it :) I may need to use my push mower for some trimming. I have a commercial weed whacker, so am GTG there.

The current home owner has some rendition of a "LT big box John Deere." This prompted me to look at JD's "E" series, thinking I don't need a whole lot, no towing, no hills, etc. But those come with a TL-200 tranny. So I emailed TuffTorq asking the inevitable question: "What is the MTBF / life expectancy" I could get from this?

Answer: "If you change the oil every 150-200 hours, you should be fine." Change oil? Like disassemble it?... I'd more let it fail and replace it first... Ethically, it bugs me to spend $2k on something that may only last 150-200 hours. I sold my Broadmoor with K-57, and 240 hours of heavy use, no issues. But a TL-200? Maybe it's fine on the flats, with a 42", and no towing. But I don't like taking risks. Seems like a lot of residential builds are looking at 150 hours. In other conversations I've had with manufacturers, then stop testing at 150 hours. But of course, that may have little bearing on life expectancy under light use and good care.

Thus, am considering something like a Hustler Raptor, 42". Has ZT-2200s. IMO the 1" axle makes me happier. If I really did it, I'd get 2800s - I know. But the Raptor would cut this in 20 minutes giving me less than 20 hours / year on the thing.

I don't know what you guys think of those big box JDs with their low-end hydro. Bang for the buck I suppose.


#2

I

ILENGINE

The statistical average for a riding mower is they are replaced every 4.5 years with an average if 138 hours of use,


#3

Z

zadok

Great. i got 240 hours and 11 years from my Broadmoor. 2 drive belts. Welded the tranny to frame mounts. Original mower belts. I babied it. Always started PTO at engine idle.

After reading horrible reviews on the cheap JD, I'm not buying one.


#4

B

bertsmobile1

It is called the "free market economy" ,
If people will only pay for junk then junk is what they will get .
I currently have 3 Greenfields in fo repairs
They have 692, 2734 & 1393 hours on them and will run for 4 to 5 times those hours and should be good for another 15 to 20 years .
Greenfield are 30% to 50% dearer than the junk that is imported . Greenfields went bankrupt 2 years ago but Husqvarna had a record year .


#5

tom3

tom3

I don't think the zt-2200 hydros are serviceable? Probably still last you a long time with your useage.


#6

D

Darryl G

For a flat property with a lawn that size you'll probably be fine with the 2200 EZT. Heat is the big killer of hydro transmissions and you're not going to be running it for long intervals on a lawn that size. But if you're going to be hauling heavy loads in a cart, you weight 400 pounds or you'll be towing rear implements such as an aerator you'd probably want to step up to the 2800.


#7

C

cruzenmike

One thing to consider regarding mower transmissions, is that only a rider type (with steering wheel) rated as having a "ground engaging" transmission should be used for towing any heavy loads. Yes, many have towed with K46's and alike without fail, but add the slightest grade or overloaded cart and the work that the transmission must do increases exponentially causing excessive heat and premature transmission failure. I have seen mowers with the K58 rated as ground engaging but I wouldn't settle for anything less than a K62 with steel cut gears or a K66 if I had a worry about what I was doing with it. As for ZTR's, the transmissions in these ONLY get better as the weight of the machine increases or he need for speed is there. The reason why a machine may have 2800s and not 2200s is that the cutting performance can support faster speeds while mowing or because that machine is significantly heavier than one utilizing a lesser transmission, BUT, this doesn't mean that you can tow with it. I have seen hitches on ZTR's but that is typically only on machines to make the consumer feel good about it having "versatility" that otherwise isn't suitable for the abuse that many homeowners might subject it to. Now, if you want to buy a ZTR with the best of the best transmissions, either integrated units (zt-5400's) or separate pump/motors, sure you could get away with some tough use here and there but you will pay over $10k for such a mower and it still isn't practical for hauling things around.

If the ZTR can save you time, certainly look to that and maybe an older gear type or tried and true hydro model just for hauling.


#8

Z

zadok

Thanks guys... I get the heat and hauling issues. I've never towed with a "riding" or "garden" tractor. As a kid, I started off with gear drive stuff, and never towed with those either!

As you may have discerned, my overall pet peeve is build quality. That JD would paint something green, stick the lowest end drive unit in it, and sell it to big box stores who may know what a 2x4 is, let alone a piece of power equipment, annoys me. In that, I would tend to avoid even a high-end JD.

Again, my last experience was with the Simplicity Broadmoor. I bought it mainly because of reputation, the Vanguard engine, 10 ga. etc, plus I knew the dealer. We talked about the K-57, but the dealer had no issues and neither did I.

I am leading toward a ZTR. A 2800 would be cool, but I'd feel compelled to offer to mow the neighbor's yard as well!


#9

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Many years ago the CEO of JD decided that JD was losing too much market share. JD had over 50% of the high end market but none of the low end so JD brought out the box store green mowers. Stockholders want market share. Those mowers may be green but they are built to a price point not a durability point. You get what you pay for.


#10

D

Darryl G

cruzenmike said:
One thing to consider regarding mower transmissions, is that only a rider type (with steering wheel) rated as having a "ground engaging" transmission should be used for towing any heavy loads. Yes, many have towed with K46's and alike without fail, but add the slightest grade or overloaded cart and the work that the transmission must do increases exponentially causing excessive heat and premature transmission failure. I have seen mowers with the K58 rated as ground engaging but I wouldn't settle for anything less than a K62 with steel cut gears or a K66 if I had a worry about what I was doing with it. As for ZTR's, the transmissions in these ONLY get better as the weight of the machine increases or he need for speed is there. The reason why a machine may have 2800s and not 2200s is that the cutting performance can support faster speeds while mowing or because that machine is significantly heavier than one utilizing a lesser transmission, BUT, this doesn't mean that you can tow with it. I have seen hitches on ZTR's but that is typically only on machines to make the consumer feel good about it having "versatility" that otherwise isn't suitable for the abuse that many homeowners might subject it to. Now, if you want to buy a ZTR with the best of the best transmissions, either integrated units (zt-5400's) or separate pump/motors, sure you could get away with some tough use here and there but you will pay over $10k for such a mower and it still isn't practical for hauling things around.

If the ZTR can save you time, certainly look to that and maybe an older gear type or tried and true hydro model just for hauling.
Click to expand...
We've had this disagreement before. You CAN haul/tow with a ZT mower and some manufacturers make this clear in their manuals. It's a matter of weight and duration. If you're hauling a load of firewood or wood mulch in a cart or dragging some brush a couple hundred feet across your yard (intermittent use) that's entirely different from continuous use such as towing an aerator.


#11

D

Darryl G

zadok said:
Thanks guys... I get the heat and hauling issues. I've never towed with a "riding" or "garden" tractor. As a kid, I started off with gear drive stuff, and never towed with those either!

As you may have discerned, my overall pet peeve is build quality. That JD would paint something green, stick the lowest end drive unit in it, and sell it to big box stores who may know what a 2x4 is, let alone a piece of power equipment, annoys me. In that, I would tend to avoid even a high-end JD.

Again, my last experience was with the Simplicity Broadmoor. I bought it mainly because of reputation, the Vanguard engine, 10 ga. etc, plus I knew the dealer. We talked about the K-57, but the dealer had no issues and neither did I.

I am leading toward a ZTR. A 2800 would be cool, but I'd feel compelled to offer to mow the neighbor's yard as well!
Click to expand...
One thing that I don't think has come up is ride quality. ZTRs tend to give a very stiff ride unless you go with one with some sort of system. You can add a suspension seat base if it doesn't have a suspension seat, which at your price point it almost certainly won't.


#12

C

cruzenmike

Darryl G said:
We've had this disagreement before. You CAN haul/tow with a ZT mower and some manufacturers make this clear in their manuals. It's a matter of weight and duration. If you're hauling a load of firewood or wood mulch in a cart or dragging some brush a couple hundred feet across your yard (intermittent use) that's entirely different from continuous use such as towing an aerator.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't mean to disagree. You CAN do things that you otherwise shouldn't. I have seen people state that they used their riding mower to move their boat or whatever, and while capable of, that kind of thing should never be done. It does all come down to what the manual states. All I was trying to say was that the ZTR is certainly not the best or ideal machine for hauling, especially if you aren't using it in accordance with the recommendations in the manual. And the takeaway from my prior post is "otherwise isn't suitable for the abuse that many homeowners might subject it to" and simply eyeing the "bigger" transmission (2800 vs 2200) by itself doesn't mean that you can tow with the 2800. If we are to give good consumer advice here, it should be to buy the right tools for the job. Talk to the dealer/manufacturer, consult the manual and operate within the prescribed recommendations. Nobody wants a failure that they could otherwise avoid. Just my thoughts/opinions; never meant to be a statement of fact or truth.


#13

Z

zadok

Hammermechanicman said:
Many years ago the CEO of JD decided that JD was losing too much market share. JD had over 50% of the high end market but none of the low end so JD brought out the box store green mowers. Stockholders want market share. Those mowers may be green but they are built to a price point not a durability point. You get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

I get it. Years ago I worked in the home appliance industry. Then, General Electric came to the conclusion, "If I save $1 on each unit, and I make a million of them, I've saved a million dollars." The GE washer that came with our current house quit. Is there a compelling reason for me to buy another one? Nope :)

On the JD, years ago when I bought my Simplicity, I shopped JD. The dealer told me *then*, those were "throw away mowers." Built to last no more than 10 years. I know even the better machines you have to maintain them. I had nuts loosen up on my Broadmoor. We finally welded stuff that I'd never have to "unweld." I had a terraced yard with short 30 deg. slopes. The K-57 would wine for the few seconds it took to ascend those slops, and I hit them at an angle - not to risk tipping, but to lessen the load a little. But then it was level or downhill after the terraces so I doubt (I never checked) the unit overheated.


#14

B

bertsmobile1

zadok said:
Thanks guys... I get the heat and hauling issues. I've never towed with a "riding" or "garden" tractor. As a kid, I started off with gear drive stuff, and never towed with those either!

As you may have discerned, my overall pet peeve is build quality. That JD would paint something green, stick the lowest end drive unit in it, and sell it to big box stores who may know what a 2x4 is, let alone a piece of power equipment, annoys me. In that, I would tend to avoid even a high-end JD.

Again, my last experience was with the Simplicity Broadmoor. I bought it mainly because of reputation, the Vanguard engine, 10 ga. etc, plus I knew the dealer. We talked about the K-57, but the dealer had no issues and neither did I.

I am leading toward a ZTR. A 2800 would be cool, but I'd feel compelled to offer to mow the neighbor's yard as well!
Click to expand...

Same story but different market
We had 3 British Motorcycle shops in Sydney Aust a while back.
I got most of my parts from Jim Eades.
I would call & ask if he had a part and most times the answer was "Yes but you will not buy them, I will have some good ones in for you in X days "
When asked why he kept all of the trash parts the answer was pimply
"If I only sold quality parts I would be lucky to have 10 customers and not make enough money to pay the power bill so I have to keep junk that I can sell for a cheaper price than the on line vendors "

Mowers are exactly the same if you don't sell cheap rubbish then you don't sell anything.
The person I bought the repair run from retired to a beach side village where about 1/3 of the houses are owned by government workers who stay there on the weekend.
Every monday morning there are dozens of near new mowers sitting in the streets waiting for garbage collectors .
There is nothing wrong with them that fresh fuel or a new plug would not fix but on Friday morning when they went to mow / trim / hedge / blow to get the property ready for the Saturday night dinner party, the item did not start so they ring a big box that does express delivery and buy a new one then toss the old ones out Monday when they leave for the week .
This is the reality of the new economy so if JD don't make mowers he big box can seel then JD don't sell enough mowers .


#15

gotomow

gotomow

zadok said:
Yeah so I'm looking for a 20 year machine on a budget! I'm moving to a home with roughly 3/4 acre, mostly flat, with lots of landscaping. So... the inevitable quest of how to take care of it :) I may need to use my push mower for some trimming. I have a commercial weed whacker, so am GTG there.

The current home owner has some rendition of a "LT big box John Deere." This prompted me to look at JD's "E" series, thinking I don't need a whole lot, no towing, no hills, etc. But those come with a TL-200 tranny. So I emailed TuffTorq asking the inevitable question: "What is the MTBF / life expectancy" I could get from this?

Answer: "If you change the oil every 150-200 hours, you should be fine." Change oil? Like disassemble it?... I'd more let it fail and replace it first... Ethically, it bugs me to spend $2k on something that may only last 150-200 hours. I sold my Broadmoor with K-57, and 240 hours of heavy use, no issues. But a TL-200? Maybe it's fine on the flats, with a 42", and no towing. But I don't like taking risks. Seems like a lot of residential builds are looking at 150 hours. In other conversations I've had with manufacturers, then stop testing at 150 hours. But of course, that may have little bearing on life expectancy under light use and good care.

Thus, am considering something like a Hustler Raptor, 42". Has ZT-2200s. IMO the 1" axle makes me happier. If I really did it, I'd get 2800s - I know. But the Raptor would cut this in 20 minutes giving me less than 20 hours / year on the thing.

I don't know what you guys think of those big box JDs with their low-end hydro. Bang for the buck I suppose.
Click to expand...

At 3/4 acre and mostly flat add a bit more non turf landscaping to your existing turf area and use a good self propelled Toro Timemaster and come in waaay under budget. I'm surprised also that no one has suggested going higher end gently used if you must have a rider. That's a good way to come in under budget and get the higher end features you want.


#16

B

bertsmobile1

At 3/4 of an acre most Rear Engine Riders will handle that with ease.
If there is a lot of obstacles then a small deck would be the go.
Lots of manual transmission out there so why not a vari drive ?
They will run forever usually with nothing more than the odd belt & pulley change.
Hydros offer very little advantage over a manual drive , gobble up a lot of power & have a finite service life.


#17

tom3

tom3

One thing for sure, John Deere really hit it big with those throw away riders. Get out on a sunny day and those D, E, and L mowers are everywhere. But see Craigs list full of them too, pretty cheap, and no doubt run really good - for 10 or 15 minutes. I do like those variable speed belt drives too. Lots of old Reeves drives in industry run for decades.

A bit off topic but America is getting overloaded with these "companies" that seem to be an office trailer surrounded by shipping containers full of Chinese junk. We got bit in the ass buying the wife a NAKTO electric bike on Amazon, one of their "Trusted Partners." Motor burnt up on the first ride, and no luck so far getting anything to fix it with. The one year warranty is a joke. And really nowhere to turn for help. She survived a bad bout with breast cancer but her lungs were damaged by treatments, hoping to do some easy bike riding for rehab. That ride back with no motor was rough.


#18

wrldtvlr

wrldtvlr

tom3 said:
We got bit in the ass buying the wife a NAKTO electric bike on Amazon, one of their "Trusted Partners." Motor burnt up on the first ride, and no luck so far getting anything to fix it with. The one year warranty is a joke. And really nowhere to turn for help. She survived a bad bout with breast cancer but her lungs were damaged by treatments, hoping to do some easy bike riding for rehab. That ride back with no motor was rough.
Click to expand...

Not sure your are in for a second dip, but we have been pleased with our Rad E-Bike. Components from China of course, but the company is based out of Seattle and well regarded. Support and accessories easily available.


#19

B

bertsmobile1

tom3 said:
One thing for sure, John Deere really hit it big with those throw away riders. Get out on a sunny day and those D, E, and L mowers are everywhere. But see Craigs list full of them too, pretty cheap, and no doubt run really good - for 10 or 15 minutes. I do like those variable speed belt drives too. Lots of old Reeves drives in industry run for decades.

A bit off topic but America is getting overloaded with these "companies" that seem to be an office trailer surrounded by shipping containers full of Chinese junk. We got bit in the ass buying the wife a NAKTO electric bike on Amazon, one of their "Trusted Partners." Motor burnt up on the first ride, and no luck so far getting anything to fix it with. The one year warranty is a joke. And really nowhere to turn for help. She survived a bad bout with breast cancer but her lungs were damaged by treatments, hoping to do some easy bike riding for rehab. That ride back with no motor was rough.
Click to expand...

No different down here
People just can't help themselves they want everything but they want it for free.
As for buying on line.
Always look for a real street address.
If there is not one then they are just a computer selling out of a warehouse they do not own .
As I have mentioned before I used to rent pallet spaces by the day to these people who would sell the same product under several different business names.
Go to their web page & you see a big factory with lots of people but in reality, all images lifted off the web.


#20

tom3

tom3

wrldtvlr said:
Not sure your are in for a second dip, but we have been pleased with our Rad E-Bike. Components from China of course, but the company is based out of Seattle and well regarded. Support and accessories easily available.
Click to expand...

Wife is kind of small and the 22" NAKTO was just right for her, and I kind of figured it would be a short lived interest and didn't want to put a lot of money in it, sure might be even shorter "lived" than I expected.


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