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Hi all,

I picked up a 2013 Toro Timemaster with 190cc B&S engine yesterday. The seller said it ran fine for years, but it hasn't started in a year since it wasn't winterized in Fall 2022 (there was old gas in it). Price was right so I decided to take a gamble.

So far, I've done the following to try and get it to start:
- drained the old gas and replaced with fresh
- dropped the carb bowl and cleaned the bowl and bolt with carb cleaner
- sprayed some carb cleaner into the carb hole (circled in linked picture)

When I pull to start right after spraying carb cleaner, it makes a short popping noise and blows a little smoke like it wants to start, but I haven't been able to get it to turn over. After a few pulls, nothing happens, not even smoke/popping noise. Video linked below is first pull after spraying carb cleaner with air filter removed.

Video and Carb photo

Would appreciate any help or suggestions! I'm thinking next step would be to order a new carb and possibly spark plug, but really just guessing here.

Thank you!

The carb bolt probably has both vertical & horizontal holes. Did you run a small wire thru them? Another passage is vertical stem into carb throat - it needs to be patent. Engine model #? Probably on shroud above muffler.
Also, Pull spark plug and sand or file tip, esp between electrodes. With a helper - reconnect plug wire, ground plug side against engine fin and have helper pull cord....see good spark?

Spray carb cleaner directly into the carburetor, where the choke is. Then try to start it. If it runs and dies, you know you still have fuel delivery issue. If not, either a spark or timing issue.

dougand3 said:

The carb bolt probably has both vertical & horizontal holes. Did you run a small wire thru them? Another passage is vertical stem into carb throat - it needs to be patent. Engine model #? Probably on shroud above muffler.

Click to expand...

Thank you! I didn’t run any wires through any holes yet. This is the engine: 121S02-0130-F1

Scrubcadet10 said:

Spray carb cleaner directly into the carburetor, where the choke is. Then try to start it. If it runs and dies, you know you still have fuel delivery issue. If not, either a spark or timing issue.

Click to expand...

Thanks - I did spray carb cleaner into the carb, holding the choke open. Didn’t start. Worth trying starter fluid?

Or gasoline
Some carb/brake parts cleaners are non flammable

Hi guys - update here - I spent a couple hours working on it this evening.

Replaced all the following parts with new OEM:
- air filter
- carb
- spark plug

Still wouldn't start with fresh gas. I'm ready to bring to the shop, but worried at what the bill could be. Also thinking about an engine swap.

One more thing I would check is the flywheel key.
It holds the flywheel in alignment to the crankshaft for proper ignition timing.
All you need to do is to take the engine plastic cover off, and the flywheel nut should be 7/8" socket if I remember right.
You'll see the key and keyway, it should make a perfect square. If not, key sheared, most likely from striking an object.
Having a larger impact gun is helpful in removing the nut. If not you'll need to remove the spark plug wire, to prevent accidental start, and chock the blade so it can't spin when you loosen the nut.

Hi,
Get a small wire and run it up and clear your main jet in the carb and i bet it runs!

seagiant said:

Hi,
Get a small wire and run it up and clear your main jet in the carb and i bet it runs!

Click to expand...

Thanks - I went a step further and got a new carb in, unfortunately still doesn’t run

Hi,
Strong spark is next.
Might check the gap at the coil and flywheel.

Welcome to the LMF. Just wondering how much compression it has? Do you
have good strong blue white spark? With it popping like that, it sounds like its
out of time somehow. Shop costs more than buying a good used mower. Save
it for parts if you get a used mower like it.

MNnewbie said:

Hi all,

I picked up a 2013 Toro Timemaster with 190cc B&S engine yesterday. The seller said it ran fine for years, but it hasn't started in a year since it wasn't winterized in Fall 2022 (there was old gas in it). Price was right so I decided to take a gamble.

So far, I've done the following to try and get it to start:
- drained the old gas and replaced with fresh
- dropped the carb bowl and cleaned the bowl and bolt with carb cleaner
- sprayed some carb cleaner into the carb hole (circled in linked picture)

When I pull to start right after spraying carb cleaner, it makes a short popping noise and blows a little smoke like it wants to start, but I haven't been able to get it to turn over. After a few pulls, nothing happens, not even smoke/popping noise. Video linked below is first pull after spraying carb cleaner with air filter removed.

Video and Carb photo

Would appreciate any help or suggestions! I'm thinking next step would be to order a new carb and possibly spark plug, but really just guessing here.

Thank you!

Click to expand...

Take the spark plug out and connect a plastic coated wire to the end of the plug wire and hold the end and pull the starter cord to check if your coil is good.

MNnewbie said:

Hi all,

I picked up a 2013 Toro Timemaster with 190cc B&S engine yesterday. The seller said it ran fine for years, but it hasn't started in a year since it wasn't winterized in Fall 2022 (there was old gas in it). Price was right so I decided to take a gamble.

So far, I've done the following to try and get it to start:
- drained the old gas and replaced with fresh
- dropped the carb bowl and cleaned the bowl and bolt with carb cleaner
- sprayed some carb cleaner into the carb hole (circled in linked picture)

When I pull to start right after spraying carb cleaner, it makes a short popping noise and blows a little smoke like it wants to start, but I haven't been able to get it to turn over. After a few pulls, nothing happens, not even smoke/popping noise. Video linked below is first pull after spraying carb cleaner with air filter removed.

Video and Carb photo

Would appreciate any help or suggestions! I'm thinking next step would be to order a new carb and possibly spark plug, but really just guessing here.

Thank you!

Click to expand...

I've been fixing small engines now for just a couple of years as a hobby and have picked up lots of things along the way. With the problem that you are having, here is what I would do in this order
1. the very first thing I check for is the oil to find out what condition it's in or if any exists (yes, worked on a mower with no oil)
2. check for spark
3. if spark, then check compression
4. if both are good, then a shot of Ether (starting fluid) into the cylinder(s), plugs back in and start it up.
Did it fire up?
At this point I should be able to determine the next course of action based on those 4 steps.
As so many have stated before, all you need gas, air, spark (and I like to add compression to that list)
In reading your checks, I don't believe you've answered some of these steps.
For the compression test, if you don't have a tester, then step 4 will cover that as Ether is very volatile and should create that small explosion in the cylinder with low compression.

MNnewbie said:

Thanks - I went a step further and got a new carb in, unfortunately still doesn’t run

Click to expand...

Sometimes after trying time and time again to start the engine on choke, the fuel washes the cylinder clean of the oil film it needs for proper compression. I've sprayed oil into the cylinder with the spark plug out and pulled repeatedly until the oil is pushed out of the spark plug opening. Be sure the carb choke os off. Replace the plug and try to start. If it does not start pull the plug and inspect it for oil on it . Clean the plug with staryer fluid and replace it. Hit the carb with a shot of starter fluid or carb cleaner and try to start it. I've been successful on many non-starting issues doing this. However if compression does not increase enough to fire, the rings are probably shot.

Adjust valves to specs. in owners manual.
Intake .003-.005 exhaust .005-.007.

johnny7 said:

I've been fixing small engines now for just a couple of years as a hobby and have picked up lots of things along the way. With the problem that you are having, here is what I would do in this order
1. the very first thing I check for is the oil to find out what condition it's in or if any exists (yes, worked on a mower with no oil)
2. check for spark
3. if spark, then check compression
4. if both are good, then a shot of Ether (starting fluid) into the cylinder(s), plugs back in and start it up.
Did it fire up?
At this point I should be able to determine the next course of action based on those 4 steps.
As so many have stated before, all you need gas, air, spark (and I like to add compression to that list)
In reading your checks, I don't believe you've answered some of these steps.
For the compression test, if you don't have a tester, then step 4 will cover that as Ether is very volatile and should create that small explosion in the cylinder with low compression.

Click to expand...

Gas, air and spark need to be timed correctly via the flywheel key.

Joed756 said:

Gas, air and spark need to be timed correctly via the flywheel key.

Click to expand...

Yes, for sure and at that point, in my diagnostics, where it doesn't fire, is where Step 5 would be, to pull the flywheel and check the key.

In my pre-diagnosis, before I do anything, among other items I look for, I check the condition of the blade. If I see a big divot out of it, and the mower doesn't work, I might go straight to the flywheel key to check that first.

You don't know if you are lacking spark or fuel yet. The following 2 steps work 90% of the time. (forget about engine replacement or a shop just yet) On the spark, your best bet is a $5 spark tester from ebay or amazon. Get the kind with the adjustable gap. Set it low at about 10mm for lawn mowers. If upon pulling the rope you see spark then move on to gas.

There's an easy test for gas as ScrubCadet said. Try a quick shot of starting fluid or carb cleaner on the air filter. It should start on the first pull and will likely die.
Next time do the quick shot and be ready to do some successive quick shots to keep it running.

Thank you everyone for the replies - a lot of great info here to digest and try. I brought the mower into our trusted local shop last week for a $25 diagnostic (1-week turnaround), so waiting for their response - once I get the mower back (assuming they don't say there is a catastrophic problem), I'll bring it back and start checking all of the steps outlined here (oil, spark, compression). Updates to come soon, sounds like it'll be a fun winter project now that mowing season is pretty much over here in Minnesota

Thank you again all!

MNnewbie said:

Thank you everyone for the replies - a lot of great info here to digest and try. I brought the mower into our trusted local shop last week for a $25 diagnostic (1-week turnaround), so waiting for their response - once I get the mower back (assuming they don't say there is a catastrophic problem), I'll bring it back and start checking all of the steps outlined here (oil, spark, compression). Updates to come soon, sounds like it'll be a fun winter project now that mowing season is pretty much over here in Minnesota

Thank you again all!

Click to expand...

Mowing week is all done in Minnesota? It seems the diagnostic you're paying for should cover everything mentioned here.

Joed756 said:

Mowing week is all done in Minnesota? It seems the diagnostic you're paying for should cover everything mentioned here.

Click to expand...

It’s definitely slowing! Was 35 degrees this morning walking the dog….I might have one more mow left but mostly just to mulch up the leaves!

MNnewbie said:

Thank you everyone for the replies - a lot of great info here to digest and try. I brought the mower into our trusted local shop last week for a $25 diagnostic (1-week turnaround), so waiting for their response - once I get the mower back (assuming they don't say there is a catastrophic problem), I'll bring it back and start checking all of the steps outlined here (oil, spark, compression). Updates to come soon, sounds like it'll be a fun winter project now that mowing season is pretty much over here in Minnesota

Thank you again all!

Click to expand...

Several years ago I sold a mower to a guy that was attending college. I started the mower to show him it runs. The next day he brings it back and tells me I sold him a piece of junk, he used it for 30 minutes and it quit running and it wouldn't start. I reach over and take the gas tank cap off and I pointed and said, you have to put gas in the tank. His exact words were, I FEEL SO STUPID. You can just imagine what I was thinking.

moparjoe said:

Several years ago I sold a mower to a guy that was attending college. I started the mower to show him it runs. The next day he brings it back and tells me I sold him a piece of junk, he used it for 30 minutes and it quit running and it wouldn't start. I reach over and take the gas tank cap off and I pointed and said, you have to put gas in the tank. His exact words were, I FEEL SO STUPID. You can just imagine what I was thinking.

Click to expand...

I bet you were in agreement

MNnewbie said:

Hi all,

I picked up a 2013 Toro Timemaster with 190cc B&S engine yesterday. The seller said it ran fine for years, but it hasn't started in a year since it wasn't winterized in Fall 2022 (there was old gas in it). Price was right so I decided to take a gamble.

So far, I've done the following to try and get it to start:
- drained the old gas and replaced with fresh
- dropped the carb bowl and cleaned the bowl and bolt with carb cleaner
- sprayed some carb cleaner into the carb hole (circled in linked picture)

When I pull to start right after spraying carb cleaner, it makes a short popping noise and blows a little smoke like it wants to start, but I haven't been able to get it to turn over. After a few pulls, nothing happens, not even smoke/popping noise. Video linked below is first pull after spraying carb cleaner with air filter removed.

Video and Carb photo

Would appreciate any help or suggestions! I'm thinking next step would be to order a new carb and possibly spark plug, but really just guessing here.

Thank you!

Click to expand...

I would say you need to remove the carb take it apart and clean all the jet holes with carb cleaner, If it hasn't been used the ports are prob. gelled.

It sounds like the engine stops turning as soon as you stop pulling the cord. Obviously you've gone through fuel and spark, but it sounds like it may be a timing issue of some kind. Definitely check that flywheel key too.
Let us know what the shops says once you hear back!

Hi everyone - the shop got their estimate back and they said that the engine has a blown head gasket and scoring on the cylinder walls. $950 to replace the engine! Feels wasteful to spend that on the fix - any advice appreciated! Thinking the economically viable options would be to either fix head gasket/replace engine myself or scrap it and find something else.

$950 is ridiculous for a push mower engine. Around here, you can find mowers w/ a Briggs 12xxxx engine for $20-$60 that just need a carb cleaning/rebuild or a new carb. I like those engines - have them on multiple mowers.

dougand3 said:

$950 is ridiculous for a push mower engine. Around here, you can find mowers w/ a Briggs 12xxxx engine for $20-$60 that just need a carb cleaning/rebuild or a new carb. I like those engines - have them on multiple mowers.

Click to expand...

Thank you - my thoughts as well when I got the estimate back! I don't fault the shop as I think they only use OEM products and this engine is a bit of an outlier I imagine. To your comment, would any Briggs 12xxxx engine bolt in here or are there specific specs I need to look for? Never done an engine swap before but it doesn't seem overly complicated so could be a fun winter project. Thank you!

Most (maybe all) Briggs 12 mower engines will bolt to your deck w/ 3 bolts. The differences will be Autochoke vs primer bulb & others. Some older engines will have a throttle cable to the handle (avoid). Study your IPL 121S02-0130-F1 and compare to potential swap IPLs. I have 126M05, 126T02, 128M05 on mowers.

Harbor Freight.....$229. it's a 173cc (5.5hp) almost the same. just check shaft size

Hi,
Geez, I should do a thread on my junkyard McLane Edger I built.

Bought it for $25 on FB and then another $25 in parts and have a $600 Edger.

Example: this probably only needs bowl cleaned & bowl bolt wired out.

mark abby said:

Harbor Freight.....$229. it's a 173cc (5.5hp) almost the same. just check shaft size

Click to expand...

Thanks! Do you know how I tell the shaft size? It's the 190cc B&S engine - 121S02-0130-F1.

Thanks everyone - is replacing the head gasket a viable option? I emailed the shop back and they said they can't do it since the cylinder is scored, but would it run even with a scored cylinder if I were able to replace the gasket? It doesn't look terribly difficult from the video here:

It depends how badly the cylinder liner is scored. It's cheap/simple enough to replace the head gasket that it would be worth trying. If it works, great! If not, a used engine isn't too expensive either.

Hi,
If you can find a small Mom and Pop Lawnmower Repair Shop, they usually have pretty good junkpiles you can go through.

What is happening now it seems, is the Shops do not want to rebuild Carbs and if the Owner won't pay for an OEM Carb...

The shop will sell them a new Mower or whatever and throw the old engine in the pile!

Buy it cheap and usually a rebuilt Carb will get it running.

Just about all of my Lawn Equipment was purchased this way!

SpoolinV70 said:

It depends how badly the cylinder liner is scored. It's cheap/simple enough to replace the head gasket that it would be worth trying. If it works, great! If not, a used engine isn't too expensive either.

Click to expand...

Thanks - just ordered an $11 gasket off Amazon and will see if it works! Otherwise, will explore the engine swap next.

I just fixed a pressure washer 190 cc engine that the kill wire had chaffed thru and was grounding out the coil. It might take 8 - 10 pulls sometimes. After putting some heat shrink on the wire to fix where it chaffed thru it starts first pull. Make sure you have

Compression
air to fuel
spark

Hi,
Took a pic of the McLane Edger I put together.
Bought the used Edger for $25 and it came with a nice old 3.5HP Briggs I/C Engine.
The Seller told me the Fuel tank was bad but thought I could make it work...I was wrong, Tank was trashed.
Ok, I'll find a tank but wanted the Edger running so went to my old country Lawn Mower shop and they had a MTD Edger with a 3.5 Kool Bore Engine with some missing wheels in the Junk Pile.
As I do business and have known the Owner for 30 years...
He told me to just take the MTD and I had a Engine.
Stripped the Kool Bore down cleaned the Fly Wheel and Coil of rust.
Rebuilt the carb, new pull cord and new air filter and the engine was good.
Oil sump was clean and the oil changed.
Cleaned and installed new bearings in the Cutter Head on the McLane with a new belt...
Installed the Engine and I had a nice little Edger for about north of $50!
Found a good Gas Tank with an OEM Carb for the Briggs 3.5 I/C Engine on the Bay, and it will be totally stripped down, and rebuilt this Winter.

Har

mark abby said:

Harbor Freight.....$229. it's a 173cc (5.5hp) almost the same. just check shaft size

Click to expand...

Harbor Freight sells some pretty good engines. Seen to be "Knockoffs" of Honda. They have various sizes and shaft configurations, so make sure you get the one that will fit. Have used them as replacements on log splitter, Garden Tillers, with good results. They seen to run price wise about half as would pay for a Honda. If wish to go Honda, check "Northern Tool" as they have best prices in my area and always have a sale on something.
Regards, Gil

The first thing is to stop throwing Parts and time at it.
You need to have an established diagnostic procedure.. and preferably a logical one that works best.
Spraying the car cleaner into the carburetor intake was certainly the first thing to do after making sure the spark plug wire was actually on and when it doesn't run at least for a few seconds after doing that two or three times then you know the engine is not mechanically sound so it doesn't do any good to worry about the carburetor at this point or even consider putting a new one on or even clean the bowl and stuff like you did to start with.
Since most of the time when an engine doesn't run it's lack of fuel delivery on its own spraying carb cleaner into the intake carb hole below the air filter is the easiest way to determine if the engine is mechanically sound and it is a carburetor issue but you have determined that you're supposed more than likely is not.
Those particular engines have a common problem of the head gasket failing and leaking and I might be able to hear it puffing on yours but since it's from the rear I can't tell.
You can put your hand around the side of the front head where it meets the block and various locations and have someone pull it and you will hear and feel the air blowing out if it's a leaky head gasket.
Then you can pull the spark plug out and put your finger in the hole, do not get a compression tester and do not bother to go to the toolbox and screw one in because it's just a waste of time...lol...and with your finger stuck in the edge of the hole have someone pull the rope or pull it with your other hand which I'm really good at and see if it blows your finger out of the hole or see if the compression feels low.
If it has low to no compression it could also be a valve issue but it could also be the head gasket but normally you can hear that puffing out around the side.
Those are unlikely to have a flywheel key sheared but it is possible.
Normally when one of these engines on the time Master does not start and run with carb cleaner or dripping some fuel in there etc then it is either the head gasket, or something with the valves or the head like that push rods, rocker arm jumped off the push rod, loosen rocker arm studs, slid valve guide, or popped valve seat all of which would be considered a valve train / head issue.
Also, all of which can be fixed without buying any new parts!
Too many people jump on Amazon and pay $138 or more for a head when they have a problem like this when it's just not necessary.
And to answer your other question, no starting fluid is not worth a shot.
If it won't run on carb cleaner then it won't run on starting fluid and starting fluid is way hard on the engines when they do start and run on it. I do not own a can of starting fluid and I do thousands of mower repairs and diagnoses a year.