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Toro vs Kubota/Dealer vs Home Depot
#1
P
PAHokie
P
PAHokie
Buying my first zt and have a couple questions. Looked at several brands (Kubota, Toro, Snapper, and Big Dog) and think I've narrowed it to the Kubota z121s 48" or the Toro SWX4250. I realize they are quite different (42 vs 48", lap bars bs wheel, etc). I really like the Kubota but do have some slope to deal with as well as quite a few trees that make the Toro seem attractive as an option. I have been told that the steering wheel models will handle much better on the slopes. The Toro is available at a friendly local dealer where I would like to give the business but it is $4300 compared to $3900 at HD. Is it worth the extra and can it be a different product if the model number is the same? The Kubota is heavier with more bells and whistles and has a Kohler instead of the Toro motor. Any input is greatly appreciated! Thanks!
#2
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
:welcome:
Firstly just because the model numbers are different it does not mean the mowers are functionally different.
Hidden in the model numbers are all sorts of codes for colours, headlamps etc,etc.
OTOH the local dealer looks at what the factory is making , then decides what is likely to sell in his area the orders the mowers.
The big box head office just tells Toro to supply them with 200,000 48" mowers for $2000 each delivered or they will buy them fron China and Toro will miss out this season.
It is then up to Toro how they meet the price ceiling or weather they will take a profit cut in order to get the volume through the factory.
So some times they will be the same and some times they might have old worn out press dies which they can use with thinner steel to make what looks like the same product once painted with extra thick paint.
Trouble is unless you are on the shop floor of Toro you will have no idea till things start to go wrong so in your case you will be making a 10% lottery, feling lucky ?
From the dealers stand point, he has paid $ 3400 for the mower and out of that will do the in warrantee service & predelivery service and purchase stocks of spare parts plus any special service tools or training required .
The big box has paid $ 2000 for the mower so is making 3 times the profit he is without doing any service on the machine at all and he will be expcected to do all the warrantee service on the mower he made no profit from selling.
Even worse, in most cases the dealer looses money on warantee service and has to put up with all the agro from customers who think they are getting a raw deal.
Some dealers take this very personnally thus treating big box customer like thieves the pages of this forum are full of those cases.
I am not saying that all dealers are angels, some should not be allowed in the business .
As for the different set ups , I have not worked on enough of them to have any opinions but the whole set up of the steering wheel models is really complicated and I can see a lot of fun when they get a few years old and start to wear.
There will be absolutely no difference stability wise on slopes between the lap bars & steering whell set up.
The problm on hills is all because 80% of the weight of a ZTR is on the rear wheels so they do not benefit from the wheelbase of a tractor type mower.
In order not to tear up your lawn the tyres fitted are no where agressive to maintain traction on slopes.
Firstly just because the model numbers are different it does not mean the mowers are functionally different.
Hidden in the model numbers are all sorts of codes for colours, headlamps etc,etc.
OTOH the local dealer looks at what the factory is making , then decides what is likely to sell in his area the orders the mowers.
The big box head office just tells Toro to supply them with 200,000 48" mowers for $2000 each delivered or they will buy them fron China and Toro will miss out this season.
It is then up to Toro how they meet the price ceiling or weather they will take a profit cut in order to get the volume through the factory.
So some times they will be the same and some times they might have old worn out press dies which they can use with thinner steel to make what looks like the same product once painted with extra thick paint.
Trouble is unless you are on the shop floor of Toro you will have no idea till things start to go wrong so in your case you will be making a 10% lottery, feling lucky ?
From the dealers stand point, he has paid $ 3400 for the mower and out of that will do the in warrantee service & predelivery service and purchase stocks of spare parts plus any special service tools or training required .
The big box has paid $ 2000 for the mower so is making 3 times the profit he is without doing any service on the machine at all and he will be expcected to do all the warrantee service on the mower he made no profit from selling.
Even worse, in most cases the dealer looses money on warantee service and has to put up with all the agro from customers who think they are getting a raw deal.
Some dealers take this very personnally thus treating big box customer like thieves the pages of this forum are full of those cases.
I am not saying that all dealers are angels, some should not be allowed in the business .
As for the different set ups , I have not worked on enough of them to have any opinions but the whole set up of the steering wheel models is really complicated and I can see a lot of fun when they get a few years old and start to wear.
There will be absolutely no difference stability wise on slopes between the lap bars & steering whell set up.
The problm on hills is all because 80% of the weight of a ZTR is on the rear wheels so they do not benefit from the wheelbase of a tractor type mower.
In order not to tear up your lawn the tyres fitted are no where agressive to maintain traction on slopes.
#3
S
Shughes717
There is a difference stability wise with steering wheel mowers and lap bar mowers. The steering wheel controls the front wheels, which won't turn down hill unless the steering wheel is turned down hill. Lap bar mowers use the rear wheels for steering. The front wheels turn freely. Huge difference in stability on hills. Although, a commercial ztr mower with heavy duty hydros can handle some pretty significant slopes.
S
Shughes717
:welcome:
Firstly just because the model numbers are different it does not mean the mowers are functionally different.
Hidden in the model numbers are all sorts of codes for colours, headlamps etc,etc.
OTOH the local dealer looks at what the factory is making , then decides what is likely to sell in his area the orders the mowers.
The big box head office just tells Toro to supply them with 200,000 48" mowers for $2000 each delivered or they will buy them fron China and Toro will miss out this season.
It is then up to Toro how they meet the price ceiling or weather they will take a profit cut in order to get the volume through the factory.
So some times they will be the same and some times they might have old worn out press dies which they can use with thinner steel to make what looks like the same product once painted with extra thick paint.
Trouble is unless you are on the shop floor of Toro you will have no idea till things start to go wrong so in your case you will be making a 10% lottery, feling lucky ?
From the dealers stand point, he has paid $ 3400 for the mower and out of that will do the in warrantee service & predelivery service and purchase stocks of spare parts plus any special service tools or training required .
The big box has paid $ 2000 for the mower so is making 3 times the profit he is without doing any service on the machine at all and he will be expcected to do all the warrantee service on the mower he made no profit from selling.
Even worse, in most cases the dealer looses money on warantee service and has to put up with all the agro from customers who think they are getting a raw deal.
Some dealers take this very personnally thus treating big box customer like thieves the pages of this forum are full of those cases.
I am not saying that all dealers are angels, some should not be allowed in the business .
As for the different set ups , I have not worked on enough of them to have any opinions but the whole set up of the steering wheel models is really complicated and I can see a lot of fun when they get a few years old and start to wear.
There will be absolutely no difference stability wise on slopes between the lap bars & steering whell set up.
The problm on hills is all because 80% of the weight of a ZTR is on the rear wheels so they do not benefit from the wheelbase of a tractor type mower.
In order not to tear up your lawn the tyres fitted are no where agressive to maintain traction on slopes.
There is a difference stability wise with steering wheel mowers and lap bar mowers. The steering wheel controls the front wheels, which won't turn down hill unless the steering wheel is turned down hill. Lap bar mowers use the rear wheels for steering. The front wheels turn freely. Huge difference in stability on hills. Although, a commercial ztr mower with heavy duty hydros can handle some pretty significant slopes.
#4
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
In theory the fixed front wheels should add stability across slopes.
In practice I see absolutely no difference because there is not enough weight on the front wheels.
Now this is from a sample size of 2 mowers over 1 model, the Cub Cadet.
They both side slipped just as bad as any other ZTR on my "torture test".
I have not driven and other steering wheel zero turn so this is not comprehensive, just my observation.
In practice I see absolutely no difference because there is not enough weight on the front wheels.
Now this is from a sample size of 2 mowers over 1 model, the Cub Cadet.
They both side slipped just as bad as any other ZTR on my "torture test".
I have not driven and other steering wheel zero turn so this is not comprehensive, just my observation.
#5
S
Shughes717
That is crazy talk. Going across a hill with 4 wheels keeping traction is better than going across with 2. The only instance where there would be no difference would be if the mower is going up and down the hill...
S
Shughes717
In theory the fixed front wheels should add stability across slopes.
In practice I see absolutely no difference because there is not enough weight on the front wheels.
Now this is from a sample size of 2 mowers over 1 model, the Cub Cadet.
They both side slipped just as bad as any other ZTR on my "torture test".
I have not driven and other steering wheel zero turn so this is not comprehensive, just my observation.
That is crazy talk. Going across a hill with 4 wheels keeping traction is better than going across with 2. The only instance where there would be no difference would be if the mower is going up and down the hill...
#6
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Where is Issac Newton when you need him ?
Remember, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ?
so the hydros as trying to flip the mower over backwards with the same force that they are pusing it foreward.
The flipping is resisted by the force of gravity on the mass of the mower.
80% of that is on the back wheels and there is not enough mass ( thus gravitational down force ) on the front wheels to add much in the way of stability on flat ground.
Then take that and do the vector split of the very small ground force and you will see there is 5/8 of sfa added stability created by the front wheels .
not crazy simple high school physics.
There is a reason why air dams get put on the front of sports cars and it is not to make them sexy looking. or wings on speedway cars or wings on the front of top fuler drag rails.
While none of them are mowers , the physics is the same determining the motion is.
Next time you go into a mower shop try to lift up a tractor by the front axel beam
Then go and do the same to a ZTR. Tell me which one has the greater weight , thus greater traction on the front wheels .
Remember, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ?
so the hydros as trying to flip the mower over backwards with the same force that they are pusing it foreward.
The flipping is resisted by the force of gravity on the mass of the mower.
80% of that is on the back wheels and there is not enough mass ( thus gravitational down force ) on the front wheels to add much in the way of stability on flat ground.
Then take that and do the vector split of the very small ground force and you will see there is 5/8 of sfa added stability created by the front wheels .
not crazy simple high school physics.
There is a reason why air dams get put on the front of sports cars and it is not to make them sexy looking. or wings on speedway cars or wings on the front of top fuler drag rails.
While none of them are mowers , the physics is the same determining the motion is.
Next time you go into a mower shop try to lift up a tractor by the front axel beam
Then go and do the same to a ZTR. Tell me which one has the greater weight , thus greater traction on the front wheels .
#7
BlazNT
You tell him bertsmobile1
BlazNT
Where is Issac Newton when you need him ?
Remember, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ?
so the hydros as trying to flip the mower over backwards with the same force that they are pusing it foreward.
The flipping is resisted by the force of gravity on the mass of the mower.
80% of that is on the back wheels and there is not enough mass ( thus gravitational down force ) on the front wheels to add much in the way of stability on flat ground.
Then take that and do the vector split of the very small ground force and you will see there is 5/8 of sfa added stability created by the front wheels .
not crazy simple high school physics.
There is a reason why air dams get put on the front of sports cars and it is not to make them sexy looking. or wings on speedway cars or wings on the front of top fuler drag rails.
While none of them are mowers , the physics is the same determining the motion is.
Next time you go into a mower shop try to lift up a tractor by the front axel beam
Then go and do the same to a ZTR. Tell me which one has the greater weight , thus greater traction on the front wheels .
You tell him bertsmobile1
#8
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
No Blaz I am not trying to "tell him" just to explain.
We have 1.5 ton hanging off the front of the Oliver, + 40 gallons of water in both front tubes and 60 gallons in the rears yet the moungrel thing still slips sideways when we are hoeing across slopes and it has 4" deep ribs on the front tyres and 4" deep herringbone lugs on the back.
The tractor weighs 8 tons without the front weights and water.
Farmers know all about side slip & traction but surburban boys get missled by clever advertising.
If he has a good think about it ZTRs anr generally fitted with round shouldered turf tyres designed to prevent damage to damage the grass, not to attain the greatest tracton.
Add to that the rears are running on the freshly cut thus wet & slippery grass.
We have 1.5 ton hanging off the front of the Oliver, + 40 gallons of water in both front tubes and 60 gallons in the rears yet the moungrel thing still slips sideways when we are hoeing across slopes and it has 4" deep ribs on the front tyres and 4" deep herringbone lugs on the back.
The tractor weighs 8 tons without the front weights and water.
Farmers know all about side slip & traction but surburban boys get missled by clever advertising.
If he has a good think about it ZTRs anr generally fitted with round shouldered turf tyres designed to prevent damage to damage the grass, not to attain the greatest tracton.
Add to that the rears are running on the freshly cut thus wet & slippery grass.
#9
N
ntran
From my own experience, the steering wheel zero turn mower proved to mow side hill way better than those with caster wheel. I tried 4 different mowers it on my own lawn (which is fairly steep) and would rate their ability to handle side hill mower in the following order
1. Toro SWX5050 50" (Toro 24HP Engine ZT2800)
2. Ferris SRS 2 52" (Kawa FX801 and ZT3400)
3. Ferris F160z 52" (Kawa FX730 and ZT4400)
4. Hustler Raptor SD 48" (Kawa FR691 and ZT2800)
Mowing up and down, I see little difference between the top 3. I initially looked at the Ferris F160z, but after tried them all I have set my mind on the Toro SWX5050 even though the its build is no where close to either Ferris above. With the Hustler, there were a few time I lost control when going down hill.
N
ntran
In theory the fixed front wheels should add stability across slopes.
In practice I see absolutely no difference because there is not enough weight on the front wheels.
Now this is from a sample size of 2 mowers over 1 model, the Cub Cadet.
They both side slipped just as bad as any other ZTR on my "torture test".
I have not driven and other steering wheel zero turn so this is not comprehensive, just my observation.
From my own experience, the steering wheel zero turn mower proved to mow side hill way better than those with caster wheel. I tried 4 different mowers it on my own lawn (which is fairly steep) and would rate their ability to handle side hill mower in the following order
1. Toro SWX5050 50" (Toro 24HP Engine ZT2800)
2. Ferris SRS 2 52" (Kawa FX801 and ZT3400)
3. Ferris F160z 52" (Kawa FX730 and ZT4400)
4. Hustler Raptor SD 48" (Kawa FR691 and ZT2800)
Mowing up and down, I see little difference between the top 3. I initially looked at the Ferris F160z, but after tried them all I have set my mind on the Toro SWX5050 even though the its build is no where close to either Ferris above. With the Hustler, there were a few time I lost control when going down hill.
#10
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I mowed for many years with Case/Ingersoll garden tractors, these are the tractors with 8.00 X 16 rear tires that are 30" tall. I have done maintenance of power equipment both full and part time. Several of the full time lawn care guys that I have done service work for had been chiding me for not having a ZTR and I finally bought one in Aug of 2008. After experiencing several side slidouts I was ready to sell the ZTR. As time passed I became accustomed to the shortcomings of ZTRs and wouldn't be without one and now have two ZTRs.
I had to drop the customers with hilly lawns that the ZTR wouldn't function well on.
With my GTs I very seldom tore up turf, with my ZTRs, one of my customers fired me due to tearing up turf.
With ZTRs I have to do more trimming with a push mower and string trimmer as tight turns tear up turf very easily.
Overall I have reduced mowing time to about half as compared to mowing the same places with my GTs.
Ground speed has increased as I became accustomed to operating ZTRs, but as they are ridged frame machines, I have had to buy a full suspension seat to keep my lower back from fragmenting!!!
My Hustler X-ONE is used primarily in a cemetery which is slow and tedious work, however being a heavy machine with a good seat, it is OK as it is. The residents at the cemetery don't complain about the noise or tearing up turf!!!! LOL!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:
I had to drop the customers with hilly lawns that the ZTR wouldn't function well on.
With my GTs I very seldom tore up turf, with my ZTRs, one of my customers fired me due to tearing up turf.
With ZTRs I have to do more trimming with a push mower and string trimmer as tight turns tear up turf very easily.
Overall I have reduced mowing time to about half as compared to mowing the same places with my GTs.
Ground speed has increased as I became accustomed to operating ZTRs, but as they are ridged frame machines, I have had to buy a full suspension seat to keep my lower back from fragmenting!!!
My Hustler X-ONE is used primarily in a cemetery which is slow and tedious work, however being a heavy machine with a good seat, it is OK as it is. The residents at the cemetery don't complain about the noise or tearing up turf!!!! LOL!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing: