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I'm looking at the new Super Recyclers to replace my 1993 Toro variable-speed recycler. I've talked to one repair tech and two salesmen from different dealers. Which engine should I buy with the Super Recycler, the Toro or the Honda? Both are overhead valves, the Toro has 3 rings on the piston compared to the Honda's two, or so I've been told, and I'm cutting a 5000 square foot lawn. I'm a bit anxious to try the personal pace as I wasn't real happy when I tried them when they first came out, but hear they're much improved now. Lawn is somewhat rolling but nothing seriously steep.
If you're into model numbers, it's 20381 or 20382. Same body and tranny, only different engines. Thanks for your help!

Can't speak to the engine, but the personal pace is awesome. I asked my gf to try it and wasn't sure she was going to give it back. It's extremely smooth. Years ago three rings were important; with today's materials and tolerances I'm not sure that's a deal maker or deal breaker.

Grass ala Mowed said:

... the personal pace is awesome. I asked my gf to try it and wasn't sure she was going to give it back. It's extremely smooth.

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Ok, that relieves my mind on the personal pace anxiety. Thanks. Does Kohler=Toro on the engines?

Stay away (a long way) from the Honda & kohler engines. If you can find a unit with a B & S engine hat would be the best way to go. Lots on engine changes with the 2012 models. Try to find a model that has a serial # starting with 311. If you do you will have a keeper for a long time. Good luck!

Things change.
I thought that the Honda engines were suburb, but that was from years ago.
Now, as to the personal pace - I have a Lawn Boy with this - its great plus !
Honda engines may be Chinese now, so lets be open minded.

Well, I bought the Toro with the Toro overhead valve engine and the Personal Pace. I've used it 5 times now and am very pleased. According to the techs, the Toro engine is by Toro and has been around for several years with an excellent service record. They were aware of some of the changes in the Honda engine for this year but did not have any service issues yet. The Toro overhead valve engine is quieter than my old Toro, which I think had a B&S engine, and uses less fuel. The Personal Pace took one session to get used to and it's been smooth sailing since. It will creep if you want to edge or go around an obstacle and fly if you want to stride long and fast. I see this particular model was just rated second for self-propelled mowers in Consumer Reports, right after the Honda. Guess we'll have to see about the issues with them down the road.
Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it!

dsloss1 said:

Well, I bought the Toro with the Toro overhead valve engine and the Personal Pace. I've used it 5 times now and am very pleased. According to the techs, the Toro engine is by Toro and has been around for several years with an excellent service record. They were aware of some of the changes in the Honda engine for this year but did not have any service issues yet. The Toro overhead valve engine is quieter than my old Toro, which I think had a B&S engine, and uses less fuel. The Personal Pace took one session to get used to and it's been smooth sailing since. It will creep if you want to edge or go around an obstacle and fly if you want to stride long and fast. I see this particular model was just rated second for self-propelled mowers in Consumer Reports, right after the Honda. Guess we'll have to see about the issues with them down the road.
Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it!

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Several years ago, I tried a Honda (great automobile, IMO) and found it lacking and worse. I had to return it...
The Personal Pace is the way to go !
Does Honda pay for CU and have they improved a great deal so quickly ?
Now I am looking for something better.
The 30" Toro looks good.

dsloss1 said:

Well, I bought the Toro with the Toro overhead valve engine and the Personal Pace. I've used it 5 times now and am very pleased. According to the techs, the Toro engine is by Toro and has been around for several years with an excellent service record. They were aware of some of the changes in the Honda engine for this year but did not have any service issues yet. The Toro overhead valve engine is quieter than my old Toro, which I think had a B&S engine, and uses less fuel. The Personal Pace took one session to get used to and it's been smooth sailing since. It will creep if you want to edge or go around an obstacle and fly if you want to stride long and fast. I see this particular model was just rated second for self-propelled mowers in Consumer Reports, right after the Honda. Guess we'll have to see about the issues with them down the road.
Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it!

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Funny you mention the Honda and cunsumer reports. I looked over that artical and the Honda beat it out by one point (82vs83 score). The Toro matched excellent in every catagory as the Honda except the Honda got a very good for side discharge while the Toro (20381) got an excellent. So how did the Honda beat the Toro? By the way the mower you bought is about $50 more with the Honda engine.

Anyway I am currently looking to buy a new mower. I have a Lawn Boy platinum with personal pace and B&S motor. I am looking at Honda and Toro. I like the personal pace alot. I also like the power the Honda HRX has (8.4 torque rating) but am hesitant on giving up my personal pace. The Honda hydrostatic tranny is appealing but I am not sure about the traditonal lever for drive engagment.

Good to hear about the Toro engine. It is hard to find any info about it. How do you like the design of installing and removing the mulch plug? Too bad Toro does not use the same system for mulch plug lever as the new Recycler series.

Why is Toro going away from Honda engines? Is Honda motors made in china now?

One thing about Honda - if they do design something poorly, and they all do, sooner or later, they will rather quickly make an improvement. But, I'd still rank the Toro over a Honda - maybe its a nationalism thing - or maybe Toro has learned a few things.
The Personal Pace is indeed excellent.
As to the "Toro" engine, I was not aware that this company was large enough to manufacture their own engines.
It could be a relabeled B&S, which may now be an excellent engine.
We shall see.

It seems that Toro must have make their own engine. After all the searching I cannot find anything that eludes to who actually makes the engine other than Toro. I have nothing against either brand. Actually I like Toro alittle more as I am from the midwest and been very satisfied with PP.

I like the Honda cuts down to 3/4" (Toro is 1.25") as I have Bermuda grass. In the Spring I scalp the grass to 1" and then maintain a 1.5" cut.

Is the Toro engine as quiet as the 160cc Honda engine? I remember the 160cc Honda engine being very quiet compared to a B&S

The toro engine is just a chinese manufactured engine but branded toro.
I think its made in the loncin factory which sells to a lot of OEMs.
It even comes with ready start do no choke or primer required.
Starts and runs well bit its not a briggs!!!

To clear up a couple of things. Toro does not make an engine. The engine that is on the 2012 morers is a Chinese built to Toro specs engine. Differences are it has a castbiron sleeve, bearings not bushings on the crank, quieter exhaust, better cooling than previous models. Is it better, only time will tell, for now majority like it if they can get past where it is made. Myself, I love the engine, but the carb is driving me nuts.

Sounds like it is a quality made engine. Cast Iron sleeve and bearings. Is this what the Honda engine is built like? Better building specs than my 6.75 torque B+S engine?

Rivets said:

To clear up a couple of things. Toro does not make an engine. The engine that is on the 2012 morers is a Chinese built to Toro specs engine. Differences are it has a castbiron sleeve, bearings not bushings on the crank, quieter exhaust, better cooling than previous models. Is it better, only time will tell, for now majority like it if they can get past where it is made. Myself, I love the engine, but the carb is driving me nuts.

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This sounds like the specs of the Honda engine on their commercial $1200 mower. Possibly better built than Honda?

Based on engine model numbers from the Toro site here are the available specs on the two engines:

Toro (model 1P65FA): see UK JENSENPOWER Hot Selling 1P65FA 159cc 5.5hp vertical shaft gasoline engine products, buy UK JENSENPOWER Hot Selling 1P65FA 159cc 5.5hp vertical shaft gasoline engine products from alibaba.com

Honda (model GCV160LA0 S3T): see Honda Engines - GCV160 4-Stroke Engine

I'm also stuck on which one to buy so please give opinions. Are the choices so bad I should be looking somewhere other than Toro or are the differences more minor biases?

The choices are not bad, it's just you are getting brain freeze trying to understand what everyone is saying about their favorite. We all push the limit to make ours look better and many times we don't compare apples to apples. This makes it hard for individuals to understand. You have $$$ to spend and just like buying a car, at the end you have to go with your gut and hope you did the right thing. Everything we say is just our BIAS OPINION. Good luck.

Rivets said:

The choices are not bad, it's just you are getting brain freeze trying to understand what everyone is saying about their favorite. We all push the limit to make ours look better and many times we don't compare apples to apples. This makes it hard for individuals to understand. You have $$$ to spend and just like buying a car, at the end you have to go with your gut and hope you did the right thing. Everything we say is just our BIAS OPINION. Good luck.

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But dont buy a Toro or Honda engine :thumbsup: :laughing: :thumbsup:

Sorry pug, normally you ANSI agree, but not this time.

Rivets said:

Stay away (a long way) from the Honda & kohler engines. If you can find a unit with a B & S engine hat would be the best way to go. Lots on engine changes with the 2012 models. Try to find a model that has a serial # starting with 311. If you do you will have a keeper for a long time. Good luck!

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I'm new to the forum and totally agree on the Honda. I bought a Hustler 48" with the Honda GVX530 and it is junk. Nothing but trouble from the start, o-ring gaskets not installed in the grooves and leaking when brand new, then 4 times to the shop for total valve compnent replacement. Waited 2 months the 1st time for the factory to make replacement parts and get them to the dealer. In the shop now (3 weeks and counting)(was sent to the nearest distributor this time) for the 4th valve parts replacements in 2 years and weather was dry so only cut a few times. Wet this year and need it but has had the problem twice. Carb trouble as well and I use Stabil, ethanol treatment and Stabil. Didn't know about the Kohler but can't believe it could be worse. I'll stick to Kawasaki or Industrial Briggs from now on. Asked dealer to knock some off for the bad motor and replace with Kawasaki and let me pay the difference but they don't want to because of the different wiring.

New guy here. Sorry to revive an old thread, but I'm in the same boat and looking for opinions. I was thinking maybe now that it's later in the year, folks may have had more of a chance to use the Toro's with the newer motor and give an opinion on what they think.

Toro with cast-iron sleeve and ball bearing, but unknown in its longevity since it's new? Or Honda with aluminum bore and bushings, but longer track record?

I've heard that initially the Toro motors that were built had some carb issues, but that they've been fixed now? Rivets mentioned something about hating the carb on the Toro so maybe he could elaborate here?

The 20381 is on sale at my local dealer so it actually ends up saving me $80 instead of $50 if I go that route. I just don't want to kick myself later wishing I had gone with the Honda...

Drinyth said:

New guy here. Sorry to revive an old thread, but I'm in the same boat and looking for opinions. I was thinking maybe now that it's later in the year, folks may have had more of a chance to use the Toro's with the newer motor and give an opinion on what they think.

Toro with cast-iron sleeve and ball bearing, but unknown in its longevity since it's new? Or Honda with aluminum bore and bushings, but longer track record?

I've heard that initially the Toro motors that were built had some carb issues, but that they've been fixed now? Rivets mentioned something about hating the carb on the Toro so maybe he could elaborate here?

The 20381 is on sale at my local dealer so it actually ends up saving me $80 instead of $50 if I go that route. I just don't want to kick myself later wishing I had gone with the Honda...

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Honda engines are super reliable and easy to start. Sorry you didn't get a response sooner, but I hope that helps. I would go with Honda, but the Toro wouldn't be bad.

The carbs on the new Toros are driving me crazy due to hard restarting problems. I have been working on them since they came out and have boiled it down to three causes. First, I have found about a dozen with improperly set auto chokes which are not allowing the chokes to close all the way. Second, I don't feel that the quality control on the jets is very good. Not allowing enough fuel to enter the air horn during choking. Third, seeing that they are not serviceable, if you don't understand complete carb operation and the science behind them, you must replace, which I have to do about 25% of the time. Lucky, they are still under warranty. I can say that I am working with Toro tech service to get this solved, and I woulld say (I hope) this will be solved with the 2013 models.

Rivets said:

The carbs on the new Toros are driving me crazy due to hard restarting problems. I have been working on them since they came out and have boiled it down to three causes. First, I have found about a dozen with improperly set auto chokes which are not allowing the chokes to close all the way. Second, I don't feel that the quality control on the jets is very good. Not allowing enough fuel to enter the air horn during choking. Third, seeing that they are not serviceable, if you don't understand complete carb operation and the science behind them, you must replace, which I have to do about 25% of the time. Lucky, they are still under warranty. I can say that I am working with Toro tech service to get this solved, and I woulld say (I hope) this will be solved with the 2013 models.

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Do you feel the Honda engines are any better??

Most Honda engines are excellent, except for the small verticals which are on the cheap big box mowers. Personally, I don't like Honda, because I feel that they are over priced and repairing them costs more for the customer, due to the fact that the customer must either have them repaired at a shop where they must charge labor rates of the motorcycle techs or at repair shops where they charge a high labor rate on units which they do not do warranty service on. I have repaired many Honda's and the biggest frustration is how hard it is to get service info, because we are not a Honda service center. Lucky, while teaching I made a few good contacts with Honda service techs who have bailed me out many times.

How much is a new carb for the new Toro motors anyway? I still have yet to buy a new mower. I am waiting to see what 2013 models show up. I have heard there are some new Honda mowers or updated ones in the works. Also In my area you are pretty much having to buy from big box stores or order from an online retailer if you want a Toro Super recycler. Another concern I was thinking is the new Toro motors where do you get an air filter? Would I have to order one online every time or will home depot be carrying toro air filters next year along with toro mowers with toro engines? The Toro motors seem to have specs that would make you think they will be a good engine.

stygz said:

How much is a new carb for the new Toro motors anyway? I still have yet to buy a new mower. I am waiting to see what 2013 models show up. I have heard there are some new Honda mowers or updated ones in the works. Also In my area you are pretty much having to buy from big box stores or order from an online retailer if you want a Toro Super recycler. Another concern I was thinking is the new Toro motors where do you get an air filter? Would I have to order one online every time or will home depot be carrying toro air filters next year along with toro mowers with toro engines? The Toro motors seem to have specs that would make you think they will be a good engine.

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I don't how how much new carbs are, etc. But if you are looking to buy from an online retailer, I would suggest Mowers Direct. Lawn Mowers Direct - Your Lawn Mower Superstore – Lawn Mower for Sale, Buy Lawn Mowers, Lawnmower, Lawnmowers, Lawn Mowers for Sale, Buy Lawn Mower

The air filters for the Toro carbs are the same as Briggs, 491588.

I don't know anything about the Toro engine other than what I read on the forum. Please do not buy a GVX series Honda---you will regret it. I have had many Honda engines but the (made in China GVX) is garbage---constant valve issues. Hustler canceled their contract with Honda due to the issues and has gone to primarily Kawasaki. That is what I paid to put on my mower to replace the Honda----I refused to consider the distributor rebuilding the less than 2 yr old motor for the 4th time. It has more power and runs better than the Honda.. The service guys say even the Kohlers and Briggs are not what they once were---building them cheaper and pricing them higher.