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Strange briggs electrical issue
#1
K
kevjns
K
kevjns
Hey All
Have a strange problem with my Bahia ride on mower the engine is the Briggs diamond ic 13.5hp
27M707 - 1187 - E1 Code:980413ZB
Image here https://goo.gl/photos/aFMVtm5a96UF69L66
I have swapped in a complete new loom most of it was self explanatory to fit as it was mainly safety switch plugs etc.
now if I put the key in and turn to 3rd stage start, the engine cranks as it should but even it there is no one on the seat.
if I push either forward or back pedals it wont start, if I leave the handbrake off it wont crank which is as it should be but the seat switch makes no difference.
the loom is new also replaced the seat switch with a new one. got my fluke meter on it and it tests fine.
also strange is that if I turn they key back from last stage it tries to start???.
its had the following new parts all genuine fro briggs and stratton:
new key ignition switch
new solenoid
new fuse holder
new looms
new starter motor
new fly wheel and key
valves checked and set perfectly.
I also noticed there was no wire from the ignition coil as a stop the spade was half missing so I've soldered a wire on but unsure of its location.
any help would be greatly appreciated
kevin
Have a strange problem with my Bahia ride on mower the engine is the Briggs diamond ic 13.5hp
27M707 - 1187 - E1 Code:980413ZB
Image here https://goo.gl/photos/aFMVtm5a96UF69L66
I have swapped in a complete new loom most of it was self explanatory to fit as it was mainly safety switch plugs etc.
now if I put the key in and turn to 3rd stage start, the engine cranks as it should but even it there is no one on the seat.
if I push either forward or back pedals it wont start, if I leave the handbrake off it wont crank which is as it should be but the seat switch makes no difference.
the loom is new also replaced the seat switch with a new one. got my fluke meter on it and it tests fine.
also strange is that if I turn they key back from last stage it tries to start???.
its had the following new parts all genuine fro briggs and stratton:
new key ignition switch
new solenoid
new fuse holder
new looms
new starter motor
new fly wheel and key
valves checked and set perfectly.
I also noticed there was no wire from the ignition coil as a stop the spade was half missing so I've soldered a wire on but unsure of its location.
any help would be greatly appreciated
kevin
#2
L
Lawnranger
L
Lawnranger
One factor to keep in mind is that new does not always equal good. You must verify by testing that all parts of the circuit are good. Side note: a friend of mine restored a Jeep and bought a new loom and had problems with the lights. Turns out the manufacturer of the loom reversed two wires. My friend spent countless hours tracing the problem but he wanted it fixed and his persistence paid off.
The fact that the engine will crank without the seat switch is not out of the ordinary. I own a Grasshopper mower and it will crank without someone in the seat. However, if the blades are engaged and you raise up out of the seat the engine dies. The loom you purchased may be set up different from the original and you should call the manufacturer to verify.
One problem I saw at first glance of your picture is that you have a four terminal solenoid with only three wires connected. Is there a fourth wire? Should the machine have a three wire solenoid? The only way for that setup to crank the engine when turning the ignition switch back from start to run is that something (the switch maybe) is sending a signal to the small wire on the solenoid during the process. Remember, new does not equal good in all cases. If you need a test procedure for the ignition switch, just ask. From what you describe the solenoid is doing its job and I'd be suspicious of the ignition switch first.
The kill wire from the ignition coil goes to the "M" terminal (magneto) on the ignition switch. When you turn the ignition switch to the off position internally it connects the "M" terminal to the "G" terminal (ground) to kill the spark.
The fact that the engine will crank without the seat switch is not out of the ordinary. I own a Grasshopper mower and it will crank without someone in the seat. However, if the blades are engaged and you raise up out of the seat the engine dies. The loom you purchased may be set up different from the original and you should call the manufacturer to verify.
One problem I saw at first glance of your picture is that you have a four terminal solenoid with only three wires connected. Is there a fourth wire? Should the machine have a three wire solenoid? The only way for that setup to crank the engine when turning the ignition switch back from start to run is that something (the switch maybe) is sending a signal to the small wire on the solenoid during the process. Remember, new does not equal good in all cases. If you need a test procedure for the ignition switch, just ask. From what you describe the solenoid is doing its job and I'd be suspicious of the ignition switch first.
The kill wire from the ignition coil goes to the "M" terminal (magneto) on the ignition switch. When you turn the ignition switch to the off position internally it connects the "M" terminal to the "G" terminal (ground) to kill the spark.
#3
K
kevjns
K
kevjns
Thanks for the reply ive put some photos of how it is now link below as mowers in front of me.
https://goo.gl/photos/1DKdinc4ko1sgAar8
Came with 4 way solinoied in pics i have some wires not attached as im trying to find there location now.
https://goo.gl/photos/1DKdinc4ko1sgAar8
Came with 4 way solinoied in pics i have some wires not attached as im trying to find there location now.
#4
K
kevjns
K
kevjns
Progress at last. Ive now found iut i have a few wires missing from the loom firstly theres extra orange in my old loom dont know what the symbol is but theres also diode in the wire.
its wire 19 to 50 then gose to solenoid
Pics https://goo.gl/photos/vT5xaGZASou5rPix6
This must be why im getting so many issues?
its wire 19 to 50 then gose to solenoid
Pics https://goo.gl/photos/vT5xaGZASou5rPix6
This must be why im getting so many issues?
#5
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The wiring systems are all basically the same.
power goes from the hot side of the starter solenoid to the ignition switch usually a red wire and has a fuse in it.
The ignition switch bridges the B ( Battery) terminal with the S ( Start ) terminal.
The colour changes , usually yellow or orange then goes to the blade switch, change of colour again then to the brake switch , changes colour again then to the starter solenoid.
Thus the engine can not crank unless the blades are turned off & the parking brake is turned on.
The spark is controlled by earth wires, lots of them all working in parallel and some times in groups ( seat + brake ).
On some systems and yours seem to be one of them they also run the earth wires to the starting solenoid, mainly to stop owners bypassing safety switches and in most cases it is the seat switch that supplies the earth link to the starter solenoid.
In most cases this can be bypasses by simply putting loop from the solenoid mounting bolt to the neg terminal on the solenoid.
Do yourself a favour and print out several copies of your circuit diagram.
Then colour the individual circuits so they stand out from the other wires .
You have 3 separate circuits.
1) starter motor circuit
2) spark circuit
3) alternator circuit includes lights
Now check each circuit in isolation from the others.
Use come coloured felt tip pens and colour each wire on the diagram the same colour as the wire on the mower as you find them.
Work backwards from the starter solenoid to the starer switch. it is ease to do that way.
Remember for the starter to work, you must have a closed loop from battery to the small terminals on the solenoid.
For the spark to work you must have an open circuit between the coil and every thing the wire is connected to.
power goes from the hot side of the starter solenoid to the ignition switch usually a red wire and has a fuse in it.
The ignition switch bridges the B ( Battery) terminal with the S ( Start ) terminal.
The colour changes , usually yellow or orange then goes to the blade switch, change of colour again then to the brake switch , changes colour again then to the starter solenoid.
Thus the engine can not crank unless the blades are turned off & the parking brake is turned on.
The spark is controlled by earth wires, lots of them all working in parallel and some times in groups ( seat + brake ).
On some systems and yours seem to be one of them they also run the earth wires to the starting solenoid, mainly to stop owners bypassing safety switches and in most cases it is the seat switch that supplies the earth link to the starter solenoid.
In most cases this can be bypasses by simply putting loop from the solenoid mounting bolt to the neg terminal on the solenoid.
Do yourself a favour and print out several copies of your circuit diagram.
Then colour the individual circuits so they stand out from the other wires .
You have 3 separate circuits.
1) starter motor circuit
2) spark circuit
3) alternator circuit includes lights
Now check each circuit in isolation from the others.
Use come coloured felt tip pens and colour each wire on the diagram the same colour as the wire on the mower as you find them.
Work backwards from the starter solenoid to the starer switch. it is ease to do that way.
Remember for the starter to work, you must have a closed loop from battery to the small terminals on the solenoid.
For the spark to work you must have an open circuit between the coil and every thing the wire is connected to.
#6
K
kevjns
K
kevjns
I can start it just the seat safty switch isnt working. Also whats the symbol on the diagram it isnt a buzzer as thats 108 on the diagram
#7
L
Lawnranger
Wire 19 is coming off the "L" (lights) terminal of the ignition switch. Wire 50 has a diode to prevent back-feed. Since the power is coming from the "L" terminal it is probably for the lights and not the starter solenoid. The wire coming off the "S" terminal starts as wire 16 but changes as it goes through the fuse and switch(s) along the way and that wire should go to the starter solenoid. Difficult to tell with only part of the schematic.
L
Lawnranger
Progress at last. Ive now found iut i have a few wires missing from the loom firstly theres extra orange in my old loom dont know what the symbol is but theres also diode in the wire.
its wire 19 to 50 then gose to solenoid
Pics https://goo.gl/photos/vT5xaGZASou5rPix6
This must be why im getting so many issues?
Wire 19 is coming off the "L" (lights) terminal of the ignition switch. Wire 50 has a diode to prevent back-feed. Since the power is coming from the "L" terminal it is probably for the lights and not the starter solenoid. The wire coming off the "S" terminal starts as wire 16 but changes as it goes through the fuse and switch(s) along the way and that wire should go to the starter solenoid. Difficult to tell with only part of the schematic.
#8
L
Lawnranger
See post #2, paragraph #2 of this thread.
L
Lawnranger
I can start it just the seat safty switch isnt working.
See post #2, paragraph #2 of this thread.
#9
L
Lawnranger
What diagram and what symbol are you referring to? If it's the schematic you posted a picture of, 108 is not showing up for me to see. You will have to be more specific.
L
Lawnranger
Also whats the symbol on the diagram it isnt a buzzer as thats 108 on the diagram
What diagram and what symbol are you referring to? If it's the schematic you posted a picture of, 108 is not showing up for me to see. You will have to be more specific.
#10
K
kevjns
Hi
Ive marked the symbol in red non the pic below also included the wire number and corresponding sheets.c
https://goo.gl/photos/TRnzhZUsXVoXoorS9
K
kevjns
What diagram and what symbol are you referring to? If it's the schematic you posted a picture of, 108 is not showing up for me to see. You will have to be more specific.
Hi
Ive marked the symbol in red non the pic below also included the wire number and corresponding sheets.c
https://goo.gl/photos/TRnzhZUsXVoXoorS9
#11
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
OK I just don't get it.
Previously this mower was starting and running fine, the cut out wire just needed sorting out.
http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/small-engine-mower-repair/34923-etesia-ride-mower-electrical-loom-help.html
Now it is back again, with a differnt title which has no relivance to the problem as the Briggs is working fine, it is the mower wiring that is the problem.
The same photos and same wiring diagram have been reposted.
Follow the instruction given to you a few weeks back and you will be fine.
The mower still has the throttle wire kill switch wired up and again none of the posted photos show where the black wire attached to the yellow wires on the throttle plate goes to as you were asked in the previous posts but never bothered to reply to.
I am starting to wonder if you really want help to get this thing going or are just looking to waste every ones time.
As for the "contradictory wiring diagrams" they are not.
The first one is a schematic which shows you how everything is wired together.
The second is a layout and shows where all the plugs are on the loom.
A wire shown in the schematic can look to be 2" long, but on the mower is 40' because the individual items are laid out in an electrically logical manner and not how they are placed on the mower.
SO back to mower wiring 101
Your switch has the following terminals on it and they are wired thus
G = GROUND , earth, negative ,,,,,,,,,this wire just connects to the - terminal of the battery or the frame
B = BATTERY , positive, power ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THis wire goes to the red, power, positive terminal of the battery. Usually it goes from the power feed to the starter solenoid to the switch, via a fuse.
M= MAGNETO, Coil, Spark,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,This is the kill wire to stop the engine going bang when you have finished, it earths out the magneto
S = START, SOLENOID ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,This wire goes to one of the control wires on the starting solenoid. It provides + 12V to the starter solenoid to make it work and power the starter motor
L - LIGHTS ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, This wire turns on the headlamps where fitted. It is the only confusing part as it might be +12V or earth depending upon which alternator is fitted.
A = ALTERNATOR ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, This wire connects the alternator into the circuit so it can recharge the battery
Complications
The power from the S terminal will go through a few switches all of which need to be closed to make a loop from the S terminal all the way to one of the control terminals on the starter solenoid.
Generally from B to S to the PTO ( blade switch ) then to the parking brake switch, then to the solenoid.
Your mower has a 4 pole solenoid so it will need both a + ( via the S terminal ) and a - connection at the solenoid for it to start the engine. As you were told previously. had done previously and now disconnected.
Kill wire M is closed by connecting to the G terminal in the off position to stop the engine running.
Somewhere in the loom there will be a lot of wires that also connect to the magneto to earth . They all work so if any single one of them is closed ( or a couple together ) the magneto earths out and the engine stops.
On mowers that had a pull start B &S also fit a throttle kill switch so when you close the throttle fully a contact behind the throttle plate connects the magneto to earth and the engine also stops.
This is what the short yellow wire is for.
It is not normal to have both a switch kill wire and a throttle kill wire connected at the same time.
If you are having trouble understanding who is who , what is what and which goes where, then do as suggested and color in your wiring diagram. Write the names of the switches on the diagram and where a number is nothing more than a plug or bolt, write PLUG or BOLT on the diagram and it will become obvious.
Previously this mower was starting and running fine, the cut out wire just needed sorting out.
http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/small-engine-mower-repair/34923-etesia-ride-mower-electrical-loom-help.html
Now it is back again, with a differnt title which has no relivance to the problem as the Briggs is working fine, it is the mower wiring that is the problem.
The same photos and same wiring diagram have been reposted.
Follow the instruction given to you a few weeks back and you will be fine.
The mower still has the throttle wire kill switch wired up and again none of the posted photos show where the black wire attached to the yellow wires on the throttle plate goes to as you were asked in the previous posts but never bothered to reply to.
I am starting to wonder if you really want help to get this thing going or are just looking to waste every ones time.
As for the "contradictory wiring diagrams" they are not.
The first one is a schematic which shows you how everything is wired together.
The second is a layout and shows where all the plugs are on the loom.
A wire shown in the schematic can look to be 2" long, but on the mower is 40' because the individual items are laid out in an electrically logical manner and not how they are placed on the mower.
SO back to mower wiring 101
Your switch has the following terminals on it and they are wired thus
G = GROUND , earth, negative ,,,,,,,,,this wire just connects to the - terminal of the battery or the frame
B = BATTERY , positive, power ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THis wire goes to the red, power, positive terminal of the battery. Usually it goes from the power feed to the starter solenoid to the switch, via a fuse.
M= MAGNETO, Coil, Spark,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,This is the kill wire to stop the engine going bang when you have finished, it earths out the magneto
S = START, SOLENOID ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,This wire goes to one of the control wires on the starting solenoid. It provides + 12V to the starter solenoid to make it work and power the starter motor
L - LIGHTS ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, This wire turns on the headlamps where fitted. It is the only confusing part as it might be +12V or earth depending upon which alternator is fitted.
A = ALTERNATOR ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, This wire connects the alternator into the circuit so it can recharge the battery
Complications
The power from the S terminal will go through a few switches all of which need to be closed to make a loop from the S terminal all the way to one of the control terminals on the starter solenoid.
Generally from B to S to the PTO ( blade switch ) then to the parking brake switch, then to the solenoid.
Your mower has a 4 pole solenoid so it will need both a + ( via the S terminal ) and a - connection at the solenoid for it to start the engine. As you were told previously. had done previously and now disconnected.
Kill wire M is closed by connecting to the G terminal in the off position to stop the engine running.
Somewhere in the loom there will be a lot of wires that also connect to the magneto to earth . They all work so if any single one of them is closed ( or a couple together ) the magneto earths out and the engine stops.
On mowers that had a pull start B &S also fit a throttle kill switch so when you close the throttle fully a contact behind the throttle plate connects the magneto to earth and the engine also stops.
This is what the short yellow wire is for.
It is not normal to have both a switch kill wire and a throttle kill wire connected at the same time.
If you are having trouble understanding who is who , what is what and which goes where, then do as suggested and color in your wiring diagram. Write the names of the switches on the diagram and where a number is nothing more than a plug or bolt, write PLUG or BOLT on the diagram and it will become obvious.