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We live in south Kentucky, we moved here from Rochester in NYS. Back up north we had a fabulous lawn, but, down here we have tried just about every grass seed on the market (including zoysia pods) but nothing actually grows, and if it does, it looks like crap. We even tried True Green (mistake) and there was no difference. Plus, all the grass turns brown in the winter around here...never had that issue up north. I've thatched, aerated, put lime down, fertilizers, nitrogen, you name it. I get very little results.

My question is what is the best grass seed for this clay soil?

And, our other problem is it's hard to find real good top soil here in south Kentucky. I'd have to drive like 75 miles just to get a trailer full. What is offered as top soil around here is questionable.

You must be in eastern KY. My father was from eastern KY and worked in a Blue Diamond coal mine. He said the dirt was so bad it wouldn't grow weeds. That bluegrass stuff was for the rich people in western KY.

Have ya tried Milorganite to fertilize, & Tall Fescue ?

Have a soil analysis done. This will tell what you got and what needs to be done to correct the problems.

And in one area is not the same as others. Here mine is now a yellow clay base soil in TN but in Alabama just six miles South it was red clay. Nothing would grow in the red clay stuff that the farmers depleted raising only cotton and corn on. All they did was throw fertilizer at the problem. Its pH was down to 3.5 and required nearly 5 tons of lime just bring up to a neutral 7.0 pH. The grass that would grow on it before several years of liming was sage grass. Here where I am now I am at a 5.5 pH but I haven't limed yet. Got to fix the drainage problem first.

7394 said:

Have ya tried Milorganite to fertilize, & Tall Fescue ?

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no, but i will. One of the last (of many) fertilizers i tried was called Nutri-20. didn't do squat except help weeds grow, especially crabgrass.

StarTech said:

Have a soil analysis done. This will tell what you got and what needs to be done to correct the problems.

And in one area is not the same as others. Here mine is now a yellow clay base soil in TN but in Alabama just six miles South it was red clay. Nothing would grow in the red clay stuff that the farmers depleted raising only cotton and corn on. All they did was throw fertilizer at the problem. Its pH was down to 3.5 and required nearly 5 tons of lime just bring up to a neutral 7.0 pH. The grass that would grow on it before several years of liming was sage grass. Here where I am now I am at a 5.5 pH but I haven't limed yet. Got to fix the drainage problem first.

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i guess i'll get it analyzed at a local co-op. the True Green guy claimed to know what it needed, but that didn't pan out too well either. Strange because our soil is hard red/yellow clay. I'm in the Monticello KY area, so, not that far from Tennessee.

Hammermechanicman said:

You must be in eastern KY. My father was from eastern KY and worked in a Blue Diamond coal mine. He said the dirt was so bad it wouldn't grow weeds. That bluegrass stuff was for the rich people in western KY.

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I'm about in the middle south of Kentucky...Monticello.
We tried that Kentucky 31 which seemed ok, but in many areas, it just wouldn't grow.

Hammermechanicman said:

You must be in eastern KY. My father was from eastern KY and worked in a Blue Diamond coal mine. He said the dirt was so bad it wouldn't grow weeds. That bluegrass stuff was for the rich people in western KY.

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gees....you're right....pricey grass seed.

mark abby said:

We live in south Kentucky, we moved here from Rochester in NYS. Back up north we had a fabulous lawn, but, down here we have tried just about every grass seed on the market (including zoysia pods) but nothing actually grows, and if it does, it looks like crap. We even tried True Green (mistake) and there was no difference. Plus, all the grass turns brown in the winter around here...never had that issue up north. I've thatched, aerated, put lime down, fertilizers, nitrogen, you name it. I get very little results.

My question is what is the best grass seed for this clay soil?

And, our other problem is it's hard to find real good top soil here in south Kentucky. I'd have to drive like 75 miles just to get a trailer full. What is offered as top soil around here is questionable.

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Soil analysis/local Co-op. And stay away from any company that won't tell you exactly what they are spraying on your lawn..as such with the company you mentioned..

You will have to enrich the soil with some sort of compost to break the clay down. Cotton gins or sawmills will have an abundance of rotten cotton hulls or seeds and sawmills will have piles of rotten sawdust. Each will either give it away or sell it at a reasonable price. Tip the loader after he's loaded you and the next trip you'll see larger loads than you paid for. Disc it into your soil well. Bermuda or zoysia is a good southern grass.

I am sure that you have aerated the soil and put a sand peat moss mixture down. Sometimes you have to go 3-5 inches deep. I would not recommend going with a aerator that you can rent, check to see about getting it done professionally. that way they have stronger tynes and larger holes.

I would avoid that the cotton stuff as I tried it in my garden years ago. Well the first year was great but the years after that the Alabama red clay turn to basically rock hard from the cotton fibers. It took me nearly five to restore the garden loam soil with lots and lots of leaves and peak moss. Now sawdust would work fine.

I mean even a rototiller could barely break the surface once the soil started drying out.

I live in NC & have the same nasty, dense red clay soil. If I have to dig in it it's like digging in bricks. I've been in the same house for over 20 years. Until recently I always purchased grass seed for fall overseeding from Home Depot - always with mediocre results. The last couple of years I've been buying seed & fertilizer from our local Seed & Feed store. Regrettably, I don't remember the brands, but I purchased separate shade & sun blends (shade was more expensive). The seed was nad-grabbing expensive, around $120 for 50 lbs for shade and $90 for sun, but it performs much better than the crap I'd been getting from Home Depot. The lesson I learned was to buy quality. I used less and got significantly better results with higher quality seed. Sorry I don't have the brand names, but your local seed & feed store may have "the good stuff". Naturally, it always looks best in spring and fall (pics below were taken last spring).

I'm planning on getting a soil analysis also - always good to know what your soil needs for decent grass.

I work large estate properties in south louisiana.

eventually, you find areas where the clay, sand, and nutrients, or water table just can't sustain normal grass growth. There are just so many factors involved. Ultimately, in problem areas, I take the long term approach...plant test plots with multiple different varieties of grass and see which will grow and endure. In areas, where I need grass to grow quickly in order to fill in exposed soil and prevent erosion, my go to is perennial rye. eventually the zoysia and augustine will overtake it, but it works well to "patch" areas, where we have done dirt work.

another technique is to locate the closest area on the surrounding lawn where the grass is living well and then take a plugs from that and transfer them to the problem areas.. If that doesn't work, then you know pretty much that you are dealing with some kind of nutrient starved soil and it's unlikely anything is going to grow there unless you address that first. I'll give you an example: we have a few places that are near surface springs...always wet just inches below the soil. The bacterial and fungal and mold growth is too toxic for grass growth. For that area, we had to come up with a completely different way to landscape and eventually decided to simple grow bushes and small trees. Some areas we learned could not support growth at all, no matter what we planted and transplanted and we concluded that at some point that area was contaminated or contained naturally occuring heavy metals, toxins, domestic animal runoff, old sewer/septic systems, and even industrial waste. There can also be infestation of nematodes that will destroy new grass growth which can be hard to detect (and yet, pretty easy to control..I use dawn liquid soap!).

You can have the soil chemically diagnosed, yes, but ultimately you are going to have to test what grass and what treatment and what conditions are best to establish new lawn grass. That just takes experimenting. I would go with perennial rye because it is very hardy, grows quickly and is a cheap and will not break the bank if you find even rye isn't going to grow there.

mark abby said:

We live in south Kentucky, we moved here from Rochester in NYS. Back up north we had a fabulous lawn, but, down here we have tried just about every grass seed on the market (including zoysia pods) but nothing actually grows, and if it does, it looks like crap. We even tried True Green (mistake) and there was no difference. Plus, all the grass turns brown in the winter around here...never had that issue up north. I've thatched, aerated, put lime down, fertilizers, nitrogen, you name it. I get very little results.

My question is what is the best grass seed for this clay soil?

And, our other problem is it's hard to find real good top soil here in south Kentucky. I'd have to drive like 75 miles just to get a trailer full. What is offered as top soil around here is questionable.

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When I lived in southern Kentucky, I planted KY bluegrass because Centipede and St Augustine doesn't grow well. Poor soil, lots of rocks, clay, you name it.

I feel your pain! I moved from IL/WI border to a small town Cadiz in western KY, living on Lake Barkley. I went from a great lawn in IL to rocks and scattered greens. I was happy in the beginning that it was green, even if just weeds. We also did alot of construction and other yard items requiring lots of "top soil". I was told (from a trusted contractor) this was the best in the area and it looked nothing like the black crumbly soil we came from. Here is what helped to get to a full green lawn in the front yard (still working on the back side):

• Totally agree with getting your lawn tested, you can use the local farm bureau.
• Aerate, aerate, aerate....I use both physical aerator and liquid aerator (although I had my doubts before using it , the liquid aerator worked well)
• I lime every year (2x) which was a huge improvement in grass growing and weed eradication. In my area the soil is naturally acidic.
• I had better luck with liquid fertilizer (Tru-Green) than solid. I was surprised they did not work out for you.
• Here are the products I would recommend, that I used and continue to use with great results
  • Best grass seed IMO, after trying MANY - Jonathan Green Black Beauty Original (jonathangreen.com)
    • I at times have "protected" this seed by planting rye seed along side to help it along. Due to the heat and lack of rain I either plant in spring (rainy season here), fall and end up watering or at times "dormant seeding" (once ground temp is below 50F). I do not water the grass in summer due to acreage. I only water newly seeded areas when I seed, otherwise as stated no watering.
  • Simple Lawn Solutions (simplelawnsoluions.com)
    • I use their liquid aerator with great results-"Liquid Lawn Loosener"
    • I also have been using their fertilizer products in the areas I do not use Tru Green
    • They have a great tech support and chat; willingly provide advice and support (in my experience)
• I use an aerator attached to my Polaris side by side: I give my wife some wine on a "cool" day and tell her drive it back and forth until I tell you to stop.
  • I have not had luck with commercial aerators that like to go one round and leave. Too many rocks and initially our aerator just bounced around in areas. It takes LOTS of aerating and patience.
• Finally, I cut my lawn on the high side for protection from the heat and to crowd out weeds. But in reality, I cut it high as I have yet to find all the "hidden rocks" in my lawn and those that seem to show up without warning. They clone in my area, I have no doubts. I cut at 4 inches with good luck and a great looking lawn.

I hope this helps.

Have the soil analyzed then treat the soil with the proper fertilizer.….. Otherwise you are wasting money on grass seed.
Want to "Soften up" the clay? Check out AERIFY PLUS (liquid aeration) at www.natureslawn.com I have had good luck with this product and this would be your first step to a nice lawn.……. This stuff really works!

if your soil is way off chemically, a paid for company will take your money and never apply the right chemicals to fix chemistry. Gotta fix it, then seed.

I live near DFW airport in Dallas amd there is a huge band of clay soil that runs SW to NE In this area.
I’ve had best luck with St Augustine Sod.
I then follow it up by following the Scotts Fertilizer Plan for Southern St Augustine.
I usually have the healthiest, thickest turf in our neighborhood.
I also mulch all things (grass and leaves) so I usually skip the fall fertilizer application.

thanks for all the suggestions!
i'll start in the early spring with a soil test (if they have a place around here)

mark abby said:

thanks for all the suggestions!
i'll start in the early spring with a soil test (if they have a place around here)

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Tennessee has a University of Tennessee extension service for agriculture in nearly every county. Maybe Kentucky has the same. I'm sure any college that has an ag program could do soil tests. Check your Co-op stores.

mark abby said:

thanks for all the suggestions!
i'll start in the early spring with a soil test (if they have a place around here)

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I've met a lot of people that live in Kentucky over the years - without exception, all nice, friendly people. I hope you enjoy and appreciate living there. Clay soil does suck, but it can be handled with a little effort and persistence. If there isn't a soil testing facility around where you live, there's always a mail-in option such as the one offered here: https://www.simplysoiltesting.com/SampleSubmission.html (I haven't tried it, just did a quick search - there are many options.

Good luck & Cool Winds, Green Hills

MyGrassHasCrabs said:

I've met a lot of people that live in Kentucky over the years - without exception, all nice, friendly people. I hope you enjoy and appreciate living there. Clay soil does suck, but it can be handled with a little effort and persistence. If there isn't a soil testing facility around where you live, there's always a mail-in option such as the one offered here: https://www.simplysoiltesting.com/SampleSubmission.html (I haven't tried it, just did a quick search - there are many options.

Good luck & Cool Winds, Green Hills

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ha....moving down here from NYS was like getting out of prison and being FREE!! yea, we love it here and i agree, the people are friendly, unlike NYS. Also, in the last 4 years, we just got the most snow ever here...4" lol. Back in NYS that would be nothing.

Anyway, i've saved all the ideas posted here and will be trying many of them out...as soon as this snow melts! Gees, i thought we got away from all that.

mark abby said:

Gees, i thought we got away from all that.

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Nope, we get some here & there. Not common.. But it happens. I don't even own a snow shovel. & I don't want one.

I begin with a soil structure sample to determine what is really there to work with , then you can begin spending money on chemical analysis

SeniorCitizen said:

I begin with a soil structure sample to determine what is really there to work with , then you can begin spending money on chemical analysis

View attachment 67636

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Hey SeniorCitizen - A few follow-on questions:

- Do you just take a shovel and take one sample or multiple samples all over the yard (I have 3 acres)?
- How did you take the sample to put in the jar - just shovel down 3-6 inches or so or more shallow but wider area?
- Once in the jar with the water, shake it up & let it settle out? Those of us blessed with dense red clay might not see as many layers, but it's an interesting exercise.

Thanks!

It all can be taken from 1 location by going down 3-6 inches and mixed . Being qt. jars are inexpensive samples can be in separate jars from multiple locations and the area taken from labeled . Be certain there isn't any organic matter in the sample such as roots , stems etc ..

I would encourage anyone thinking they have a soil problem to take a sample from a few areas of the yard and allow their county extension to advise . After the soil structure is determined then follow their guidelines to determine which vitamins the soil may need .

I don't see any jugs with Topsoil in them ?

Top soil and sub soil are all combination of materials. From place to place it will different. It is that top soil will contain less rocks and more converted organics. Let's face it top soil contains a lot of poop.

One the biggest with very good top soil is the pH balance. Nearly all us have acid rain of sorts. This lowers the soil pH to a point where plants can't absorb need nutrients to grow. When I first to a farm in the area I planted a garden. Well it did terrible. My field corn grew to whooping 12 inch before it started tasseling. Everything just stood there. I did a pH test and it was at 3.5 ph. After applying 4 ton of lime per acre the next year I had 7 foot corn stalks. Even at 4 tons I only managed a 6.5 pH. It took smaller application over the years to bring to a 7 pH. Darn cotton farmer killed the land.

Sub soils are usually unproductive soils as they contain a lot less life supporting ingredients. And a heck a lot more rocks.

Here if you get below a few feet you to soil mix that will not retain water or grow anything. Say dig a pond. It has to lined with clay or it won't retain water.

If jugs can't be viewed i guess the site has more problems than i thought . #25 and #28 show quart jars as sample photos .

No problem here seeing the images. But of course I am using Firefox with ABP and NoScript engaged. Others may be using different systems too. But I think the comment was an off the wall one as nothing was noted as top soil. Noting that top separates into different layers and won't stay as one layer.

Of course nothing will be independently labeled as top soil . So what is top soil and how deep does one dig to get to the bottom of top soil ? # 25 pic is a mixture of soil down to 6 " or 8" where grass roots often thrive. If there is a top soil there may be bottom soil but i don't know where it is and have never tried to find it . I've dug 3-4 ft. post holes and would swear i was close to bottom soil , but i have no proof so i usually don't mention it .

How much you have of top soil layer is variable. Say you are top of a hill then you have a lot less then if you were at the bottom of same hill. I have seen subsoil to right the top ground where erosion has washed away all the top soil.

AChrome said:

You will have to enrich the soil with some sort of compost to break the clay down. Cotton gins or sawmills will have an abundance of rotten cotton hulls or seeds and sawmills will have piles of rotten sawdust. Each will either give it away or sell it at a reasonable price. Tip the loader after he's loaded you and the next trip you'll see larger loads than you paid for. Disc it into your soil well. Bermuda or zoysia is a good southern grass.

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Bermuda and Zoysia do well in the Atlanta area of GA. Bermuda will take over and choke out Zoysia if give the opportunity from my experience.

StarTech said:

No problem here seeing the images. But of course I am using Firefox

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Same here I see the images in glass jars, guess I'm used to about 12" of Black Top Soil. I live next to a dairy farm & get all the good stuff we need. When we moved here about 18 or so years ago the Farmer asked if we needed any fertilizer (poop) So I said Yes, he said can you spread it, I said not easily. He offered his Ford tractor with box blade in back, I spread it over the whole property. Was a bit rich, but it kicked in & really was game changer.

7394 said:

Same here I see the images in glass jars, guess I'm used to about 12" of Black Top Soil. I live next to a dairy farm & get all the good stuff we need. When we moved here about 18 or so years ago the Farmer asked if we needed any fertilizer (poop) So I said Yes, he said can you spread it, I said not easily. He offered his Ford tractor with box blade in back, I spread it over the whole property. Was a bit rich, but it kicked in & really was game changer.

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If you want to try something really rich get ourself a load of chicken poop. Honestly my Dad threw away the shovel afterwards, it took paint off the bed of his truck. r

RayMcD said:

If you want to try something really rich get ourself a load of chicken poop. Honestly my Dad threw away the shovel afterwards, it took paint off the bed of his truck. r

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Yeah, that stuff works great, but the smell is a deal breaker

I haven't seen any pics of anyone's clay top soil in a jar . Jars must be scarce . lol

Chicken poop is best composted before use bit it is not much use on clay soils
The best thing is to add sand in the form of sandstone crusher dust or plain crushed sandstone, it is very cheap.
Clay is clay because of the crystal shape , size and uniformity
Adding gypsum alters the crystal shape chemically
Adding sand alters the uniformity
Cheapest gypsum is old plaster board ripped out of houses run through a coarse shredder
Very fibrous things like palm fronds chopped up & rotary hoed into the soil will also help
Just rotary hoeing in arbourist waste ( chipped ) will make a big difference but make sure when you work the coil you make a slope as clay coils will not drain so if you work it dead flat and get a lot of organic matter into it you have just created an inland swamp every time it gets wet

Either way there is not a simple lazy solution. It will take lots of work to get the soil to where it needs to be.

I had good garden but my mother's husband decided that those cotton seed hulls from the gin was needed. He ruin the soil texture. Yes the first year was great but the years afterward were horrible. It took me over five years to restore the soil to where I had it before. Lots of leaves and peak moss along other additives was needed and definitely wasn't cheap to fix it. And he would not spend a penny to help me either.

Cotton seed hulls do make a excellent mulch , but only if you don't have free ranging chickens . Why ? Because a chicken can scatter a half bushel just looking for 1 little yellow speck of corn that has gotten into it at the feed mill .

I had problem I had was with the stuff from the gin. It contains cotton fibers and it combine with the Alabama Red Clay and became abode bricks after the first year.

And another problem with free range chickens here is they like my tomatoes better than I do.

SeniorCitizen said:

I haven't seen any pics of anyone's clay top soil in a jar . Jars must be scarce . lol

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Full of 'shine at the moment (and I'm to gd lazy to go do it).

so.....bermuda grass....zoysia....or kentucky blue?

mark abby said:

so.....bermuda grass....zoysia....or kentucky blue?

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Your county extension service may be more acquainted with those grasses in your area . Don't be surprised if they ask for a soil sample .

SeniorCitizen said:

Don't be surprised if they ask for a soil sample .

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That's the best beginning. Even more than one in different areas of yer lawn.

One has to wonder, around here the first thing that happens when getting a site ready to build is they remove all the top soil, then after the build they bring in sod and plop it on the hard red soil and wonder why it does not grow. Test all you want to, it is hopeless, Ya got to love it.....r

RayMcD said:

One has to wonder, around here the first thing that happens when getting a site ready to build is they remove all the top soil, then after the build they bring in sod and plop it on the hard red soil and wonder why it does not grow. Test all you want to, it is hopeless, Ya got to love it.....r

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The garden shops now sell "Lawn Underlay" which is basically the fines from timber shredding , probably with a bit of urea to over come the nitrogen requirements of the wood breaking down
Th down side of this is if there are any mushroom spores around you get a wonderful crop, of fatal mushrooms.
Funny aside, despite having all sorts of things with lots of venom , more people die every year from eating death cap mushrooms than all of the bites combined
For a lot of people just putting it in their mouth can cause death . it is very toxic .

Bert, There you go with everything in Aussie land is out to kill you comments...Gee how have you survived this long Bert?

But seriously everyone does need to careful (using common sense) about things. Of course you just don't go out and eat the wild mushrooms. Even experts screw up and get the wrong ones at times. And you got respect things like snakes until you know they are harmless which here luckily is most of them. But play it safe until you know better.

StarTech said:

Bert, There you go with everything in Aussie land is out to kill you comments...Gee how have you survived this long Bert?

But seriously everyone does need to careful (using common sense) about things. Of course you just don't go out and eat the wild mushrooms. Even experts screw up and get the wrong ones at times. And you got respect things like snakes until you know they are harmless which here luckily is most of them. But play it safe until you know better.

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There was a time in my ignorant youth that I thought all snakes were undesirable. Fortunately, I learned better over the years. Now we have a half-dozen black rat snakes wandering the yard at any given time in the spring, some of them > 6' (not an exaggeration). Still kind of "shocks" me briefly when I get surprised by one, but now they're almost domesticated and pay me no mind...kind of like my wife come to think of it, but that's for another thread .

Anyway, 'bout time to lay down some fertilizer & pre-emergent around here (NC). For palaver's sake, does anyone have any input on whether one is better than another and/or which is the best for the money?

StarTech said:

Bert, There you go with everything in Aussie land is out to kill you comments...Gee how have you survived this long Bert?

But seriously everyone does need to careful (using common sense) about things. Of course you just don't go out and eat the wild mushrooms. Even experts screw up and get the wrong ones at times. And you got respect things like snakes until you know they are harmless which here luckily is most of them. But play it safe until you know better.

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Well I got to do some thing to stop all you darn Yanks from coming down here to live.
Picked up a new customer this week from New Hampshire .
They are having troubles coming to grips with the situation that parts do not turn up over night, if not sooner .
Yet another American not happy about gun violence and of course scared to death about all the things that are going to kill their children down here.
So we had a walk around her yard & I managed to show her a Goanna, about 4' long which had apparently been feasting on the contents of their rubbish bin.
Found around 30 green tree frogs , she thought that was great ( yes you can eat them ) plus a coupe of bonk frogs that had been frightening the kids overnight , she was amazed that a frog the size of a thumbnail could make so much noise & we popped one in the bath to show the kids when they got home .
With all of the frogs there were a couple of black snakes so showed her how to open gates & doors to avoid them . Caught a couple of blue tongues , she thought they were very dangerous but was delighted to find they are quite passive and would take sausage mince out of her hand , seems they had been sneaking in a pinching the kittens food overnight . Showed her a couple of red back spiders and the sorts of places where they hang out, a white tail spider & where they hang out , got her to move the shoe rack inside and put a spider trap under it as we do have funnel webs in this area . She did not know that cats will eat spiders ( don't you have that song about eating a fly in the states ?) so she agreed to keep the kitten in the laundry overnight & feed it in the morning . Found a whole stack of huntsmen & wolf spiders , orb spider, giant orb spiders, golden orb spiders , St Andrews cross spider & some black house spiders .
So not much work done, but it was raining lightly and she did sling me big tip plus a cup of tea ( yea an American drinking tea ) with a chocolate brownie , thus not a totally wasted afternoon .

As for mushrooms, the deadly night cap looks identical to a common mushroom in S E Asia so a lot of SE Asians get poisoned by them

Bert, I would come down there myself if knew I could make it. Sounds like you have a lot open space which I love to have around me. Just not a city dweller type person. This is why I got 6 acres here just to keep the neighbors pushed back. Basically I am loner and not a crowd type person. Anyway I have learned my area and it would be hard for this 65 yr old to change now.

And yes learning your environment is very important. Just got to be on your toes about what is around you. We do have own dangerous animals just not as many as you do.

And we here looking to go nearly nuts this Summer as we got a two Cicadas swarms emerging and mating in force. Little red eyed buggers but noisy as heck and it is all day and night. Thanks for having ear plugs...Without them you could not hear yourself think.

StarTech said:

And we here looking to go nearly nuts this Summer as we got a two Cicadas swarms emerging and mating in force. Little red eyed buggers but noisy as heck and it is all day and night. Thanks for having ear plugs...Without them you could not hear yourself think.

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Same said to be gonna happen here.. Arrgh.

StarTech said:

Bert, I would come down there myself if knew I could make it. Sounds like you have a lot open space which I love to have around me. Just not a city dweller type person. This is why I got 6 acres here just to keep the neighbors pushed back. Basically I am loner and not a crowd type person. Anyway I have learned my area and it would be hard for this 65 yr old to change now.

And yes learning your environment is very important. Just got to be on your toes about what is around you. We do have own dangerous animals just not as many as you do.

And we here looking to go nearly nuts this Summer as we got a two Cicadas swarms emerging and mating in force. Little red eyed buggers but noisy as heck and it is all day and night. Thanks for having ear plugs...Without them you could not hear yourself think.

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Apart from brown snakes, tiger snakes & crocodiles, there is very little that will actually attack a person unless you do some thing stupid like cornering it .
The joke about snakes goes like this
If a woman finds a snake, se gets $ 50 out of her purse & asks hubby to go down the pub & get a slab of beer, because by the time he gets back the snake will be gone .
The most common place for a snake bite is a male right forearm to shoulder and this is because when he tryed to spear it with the shovel the snake was quicker , ran up the shovel handle, gave him a nip and shot off .
It can take some snakes several days to make enough venom to paralyse its victim and unless it is dead or paralysed then the snake can not swallow it .
Dingoes around tourist parks , are bit like your brown bears in tourist parks, they have lost their fear of humans , but they are not domesticated so people try to get selfies of them being fed with the expected result . occasionally they will attack a person and we are dong a lot of research into it .
Apparently quite a lot of tanning oils attract dingoes because they smell like a sick animal .
As for cicadas there was a local band that had a hit with a record "the Cicadas that ate Five Dock "

That is one way to get all you right handed people. I am in minority being left handed but according to the doctors I am in my right mind. Mean comment isn't it. But it does kinda aggravate me that a lot times items are for right handed only making nearly to find something that works.

Got admit some the perfumes out really stinks too. I was in a hotel several years ago and some woman was using something that stunk up the whole complex.

my Problem here in Virginia is sandy, grey colored loamy soil. its horrible and the moles and vol tunnels make it look awful. I actually look forward to crab grass season cause in most places that is the only grass that will grow. Well.. except for the chickweed

I live in southeast Ohio, and boy do we have clay. Even heard of Roseville Pottery, Hull Pottery, McCoy pottery, the list goes on. That’s the county I live in.
Check you the products from here. I have used their seed the last few years after fighting the lawn. I use the turf type fescue. My lawn after 4 years is the best I have ever had! All the other posts here are giving you some great advice. I will add that fall is the absolute best time to plant grass seed. With your clay ground, I would water it for a couple weeks if necessary before you plant, use a slit seeded to get the top on the soil slightly open (1/4 inch),

I live in the SE Charlotte NC area. Red clay. I learned long ago on my 25 acres, that throwing money at making the perfect lawn was a fool's errand. Instead, I had the soil tested an many areas and learned what would grow in those areas. Most of the soil is acid, so I planted many acid loving bushes such as blueberries, butterfly bushes, azalea, and so on. Rewarded with lots of butterflies, fruit, birds and wildlife. The lawn is native weeds and grass - it actually is more hardy and native to the area. Planted lots perennial wildflowers and rewarded with ever-changing wildflowers from spring to fall. Planted lots of fruit and nut trees which provide the same and there is enough for us as well as the wildlife. All is good and peaceful and it is so good just sitting around on the porch and deck loving it all. Also, by the way, I have saved lots of money not worrying about the perfect lawn!

(Sorry hit wrong button)
Then water it in for several weeks. Of course all of this is after you get the soil tests, and add all the things it tells you to do. Good luck!!

AChrome said:

You will have to enrich the soil with some sort of compost to break the clay down. Cotton gins or sawmills will have an abundance of rotten cotton hulls or seeds and sawmills will have piles of rotten sawdust. Each will either give it away or sell it at a reasonable price. Tip the loader after he's loaded you and the next trip you'll see larger loads than you paid for. Disc it into your soil well. Bermuda or zoysia is a good southern grass.

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I will second the sawdust recommendation. When I built my house 40 years ago, I spread out the basement subsoil (nasty grayish yellow clay) behind the house. For 2 years even weeds would not grow. I was working at a sawmill at the time, so I decided to try adding sawdust. I added it at about 5 or 6 inches deep and tilled it in. Within 2 years, it was better soil than in my garden. I have been adding sawdust to my garden every few years ever since.
About 10 years ago, I bought a second Troybilt tiller. I got it really cheap because the tine and main shaft bearings and seals were completely shot and I took a gamble hoping that was all it needed. After tearing it down and replacing the bearings and seals (Yay. That was all it needed), I tried it out in the cornfield 30 feet from my garden with the exact same soil minus the sawdust. The difference was night and day.
The dirt in the field was HARD compared to my garden.
The moral of this story is if you add enough sawdust, it becomes more of a loamy soil than clay. Much easier to work and plants grow better.
@ Mark Abby Your soil might need other things mentioned in this thread, but I would definitely add sawdust to the clay.

mark abby said:

Plus, all the grass turns brown in the winter around here...never had that issue up north. I've thatched, aerated, put lime down, fertilizers, nitrogen, you name it. I get very little results.

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You have a soil issue. I have a similar issue in Michigan where it is a clay pan, and all the organic matter is gone.

Have a soil analysis done, or even a kit, and check the pH. Chances are you have acidic soil, and what happens to clay is in acidic conditions it tightens up, and air and water doesn't reach the root zone. If you are too cheap.. You can get an idea if you have acidic soil, if you end up growing a lot of dandelions, and when the soil is dry, it starts to crack. Add pelletized lime, preferably before a gentler rain so it soaks in instead of washes off. It will take a lot and you really can't add too much. It helps balance the pH especially of grass clippings which turn acidic so it speeds up the breakdown of thatch. You can also use wood ash, but you have to be careful with how much you add, you can add too much of that.

You need organic matter. The bacteria, fungus and other micro-organisms are your friends. But generally the aerobic micro-organisms are 'good' and anaerobic bacteria are 'bad'. You can -add- mycorrhyzal fungus and they attach to the grass roots, and can increase the root surface area by 20x. They trade carbon for nutrients and water with the plant. You can buy it. but they need air.

You can make a 'compost tea' and add it to your lawn as well, where you aerate compost water for like a day or so to let aerobic bacteria multiply. Then spray it on your lawn. Dr. Laura Ingham has a way to do it. Once you have some aerobic conditions, you can probably just spray the 'food' part directly on the lawn. It is stuff like yeast extract which you can make with yeast and sugar like what settles out at the bottom of making beer.

And while we are at it, later, you will probably want some beneficial nematodes that attack grubs in the soil which eat plant roots and host other bugs, but they are expensive and prefer oxygenated soil.

Adding a light dusting of sawdust will help as well, which is the browns in the compost.
If you have lots of wood, you can make biochar as well.

The carbon in the soil hosts the bacteria, holds water and nutrients, and keeps the clay from sticking together. Sand can work to some extent as well. you can add like 1/8" a year to the grass without killing it.

In general, think what is best for worms, and it will take a few years, but it will work and even better then the chemicals because you fixed the underlying problem. Let them do the work, but you have to pay them with sources of food and air to breathe.

I am not some weird organic person, I just have compacted clay soil to deal with as well and it is the cheapest, easiest solution for 4 acres.

freedhardwoods said:

I have been adding sawdust to my garden every few years ever since.

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A neighbor regularly blows his saw dust from his wood working into his lawn. I recently saw the Termite exterminator truck there treating for termites.. Coincidence ? IDK..

7394 said:

A neighbor regularly blows his saw dust from his wood working into his lawn. I recently saw the Termite exterminator truck there treating for termites.. Coincidence ? IDK..

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Is there supposed to be a connection between someone blowing sawdust ON the ground near his house with tilling it in the dirt a good distance from the house?

I have lived on my first ever river bed, which is all clay as far down as 6 feet, and I stopped there.. Have found that a lot of Gypsum powder in 50lb bags or more is really great at keeping this clay separated from itself, along with adding some good compost, to help with drainage, and future food for the grass.. My way of dealing with this clay and then planting over 75 different plants, trees, shrubs, and lawns has been this --- For all the planted things, I dug 3' by 3' holes, took all that compacted clay out, and then with a sharpened flat blade shovel, cut the clay into smallest pieces I could make.. Then, to all these clay pieces, into the wheel barrow, throw in about 1/4 bag of Gypsum, a lot of compost, some chicken manure, mix it well, so the clay was now broken down even more into almost a soil like consistency, put it all back into the hole, put the tree,shrub.plant,etc., into the hole, water carefully, and let it go until I put in a 1gph drip emitter or 2 around the trees, and watered every other day, enough water to not flood the holes, but keep them moist on top... After a few years, I had really great results from all the plantings, and most are way ahead of all the things people in this area have had in the ground for years, but without doing what I did to the holes... Every one of them... Yes, it is really hard work, and I have to use a 6 ft long digging bar, that weighs around 15-20 lbs to help me get the hole going deeper when the pick is no longer working... I figured, if these things get a 3 foot head start with good, amended, fertilized, soil, by the time they get to the bottom, their roots will be tough enough, and all the water that has since passed through the bottom of those holes will bring more nutrient rich water down farther, and away they will go through that hard lake bottom clay here.. And it has worked great !!! I have no access to major earth moving power tools, etc., and I don't really care about that either...I DO have an amazing backyard that is way, way, ahead of everyone who lived here before me for sure... Good luck with your project !

Cajun power said:

I work large estate properties in south louisiana.

eventually, you find areas where the clay, sand, and nutrients, or water table just can't sustain normal grass growth. There are just so many factors involved. Ultimately, in problem areas, I take the long term approach...plant test plots with multiple different varieties of grass and see which will grow and endure. In areas, where I need grass to grow quickly in order to fill in exposed soil and prevent erosion, my go to is perennial rye. eventually the zoysia and augustine will overtake it, but it works well to "patch" areas, where we have done dirt work.

another technique is to locate the closest area on the surrounding lawn where the grass is living well and then take a plugs from that and transfer them to the problem areas.. If that doesn't work, then you know pretty much that you are dealing with some kind of nutrient starved soil and it's unlikely anything is going to grow there unless you address that first. I'll give you an example: we have a few places that are near surface springs...always wet just inches below the soil. The bacterial and fungal and mold growth is too toxic for grass growth. For that area, we had to come up with a completely different way to landscape and eventually decided to simple grow bushes and small trees. Some areas we learned could not support growth at all, no matter what we planted and transplanted and we concluded that at some point that area was contaminated or contained naturally occuring heavy metals, toxins, domestic animal runoff, old sewer/septic systems, and even industrial waste. There can also be infestation of nematodes that will destroy new grass growth which can be hard to detect (and yet, pretty easy to control..I use dawn liquid soap!).

You can have the soil chemically diagnosed, yes, but ultimately you are going to have to test what grass and what treatment and what conditions are best to establish new lawn grass. That just takes experimenting. I would go with perennial rye because it is very hardy, grows quickly and is a cheap and will not break the bank if you find even rye isn't going to grow there.

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Yes, I also have used a lot of Perennial Rye grass seeds and had the best results with them.. Perennial = they will always grow and not go dormant, etc...There are a lot of hybrid Perennial Rye grass seeds out too, that perhaps will work better too... I just stick to Scotts Brand seeds and have had great success... You have to, of course, do the work on the bare ground first, for me I used, Gypsum, a good compost, humic acid pellets, Scotts starter fertilizer, their seeds, and a good prep job on the soil that included hand Aerating every square inch of the area, so that the good stuff on top would fall into those holes and start improving it, for long term success... It does not ever happen "overnight" with clay soil, that is for sure... But keep aerating especially, and feeding it, every year, and in a little time, you will see great results that will keep on going way better than doing nothing, but throwing stuff on top of that soil - especially my river bed clay soil... Good luck with this !

mark abby said:

We live in south Kentucky, we moved here from Rochester in NYS. Back up north we had a fabulous lawn, but, down here we have tried just about every grass seed on the market (including zoysia pods) but nothing actually grows, and if it does, it looks like crap. We even tried True Green (mistake) and there was no difference. Plus, all the grass turns brown in the winter around here...never had that issue up north. I've thatched, aerated, put lime down, fertilizers, nitrogen, you name it. I get very little results.

My question is what is the best grass seed for this clay soil?

And, our other problem is it's hard to find real good top soil here in south Kentucky. I'd have to drive like 75 miles just to get a trailer full. What is offered as top soil around here is questionable.

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Soil analysis may not help at all. You may have wonderful, nutritious, balanced soil, except for one thing--it's full of clay.

When damp, take some mix it up, then grab a fistful and squeeze it tightly. Then let go--does it crumble apart? I'll bet not. Poke it, does it crumble? Not likely. Therein (at least for some) lies the issue--the clay. Clay binds the soil tightly, too tightly, water gets "stuck," roots are not happy it can turn into a sort of concrete. In my state of NH I had clay garden soil and asked a agri-agent and he said: "squeeze it."

He suggested, and I did what he suggested: By ground agricultural gypsum. I did, though I can't remember how many bags for my 60x100 garden and like magic, tilled it to a depth of about 7" and *poof* Grab a handful and squeeze... open at it falls apart.

That stayed that way for the future, now well past 20 years. If I remember correctly, clay is made of plate like particles and the plates have an ionic charge that is like having two magnets, they stick tightly to each other. The gypsum neutralizes the ionic charge so the particles do not "stick" to its neighbor.

Most soil analysis does not look at friability (looseness) and that may be your issue.

See: https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/gypsum.pdf

From the above: "With the exception of arid and coastal regions (where soil salts are high) and the southeastern United States (where heavy clay soils are common), gypsum amendment is just not necessary" Note: you live in the "exception."
areas. G'luck.

freedhardwoods said:

I will second the sawdust recommendation. When I built my house 40 years ago, I spread out the basement subsoil (nasty grayish yellow clay) behind the house. For 2 years even weeds would not grow. I was working at a sawmill at the time, so I decided to try adding sawdust. I added it at about 5 or 6 inches deep and tilled it in. Within 2 years, it was better soil than in my garden. I have been adding sawdust to my garden every few years ever since.
About 10 years ago, I bought a second Troybilt tiller. I got it really cheap because the tine and main shaft bearings and seals were completely shot and I took a gamble hoping that was all it needed. After tearing it down and replacing the bearings and seals (Yay. That was all it needed), I tried it out in the cornfield 30 feet from my garden with the exact same soil minus the sawdust. The difference was night and day.
The dirt in the field was HARD compared to my garden.
The moral of this story is if you add enough sawdust, it becomes more of a loamy soil than clay. Much easier to work and plants grow better.
@ Mark Abby Your soil might need other things mentioned in this thread, but I would definitely add sawdust to the clay.

Click to expand...

If you are adding saw dust you should add some nitrogen as the wood decomposing consumes a lot of nitrogen

freedhardwoods said:

Is there supposed to be a connection between someone blowing sawdust ON the ground near his house with tilling it in the dirt a good distance from the house?

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You decide..

Dealing with tricky southern clay soil can be a real challenge, right? It's a whole different ball game compared to the conditions up north. Have you considered consulting with local gardening experts or nurseries in south Kentucky? They might have insights into the best grass seed varieties that thrive in your specific clay soil. As for topsoil, it's a bummer that quality is hard to come by locally. Maybe exploring nearby areas or seeking advice from fellow gardeners could help?