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Scag Turf Tiger/Kohler Command Pro 27 Frustrations
#1
A
arussel88
A
arussel88
2009 Scag Turf Tiger
27hp Kohler Command Pro (I don’t know the model number as the sticker has long since disappeared)
650 hours (653 hours now, bought used 22June2018)
Starts strong, runs great for about 30-40 minutes then begins to lose power while blades are engaged. I can release the blades and let the sucker stand for a few seconds and the engine begins to sound “right” again. Then…once I start mowing again…same thing, engine loses steam. I can let is sit for 30-40 minutes and go through the whole routine of mowing for 30-40 minutes with no problem before the issues start again. There also seems to be an oil leak near the dipstick.
Here’s what I have done:
Compression check: 120psi on both cylinders. I’ve heard this number doesn’t mean much for these engines because they have a built-in release valve.
Replaced spark plugs.
Drained all the previous owners gas and replaced with “clean” gas.
Checked for spark with inline tester both resting, under load, and when it is acting up. Clean spark. At least that what the tester tells me.
Could it be:
Ignition coil? I know there will be a consensus that the DSAI thing is junk and my problem. My ignition coil number is 24-584-36. The kit that is supposed to “fix” this direct ignition problem does not show compatibility with my model coil number.
Worn/sticking valves? If so, can this be rebuilt with long term success or will the problem eventually resurface?
Carburetor?
Tiny rip in the seat?
Yes, I know I have posted this on other forums.
Thanks, all!
27hp Kohler Command Pro (I don’t know the model number as the sticker has long since disappeared)
650 hours (653 hours now, bought used 22June2018)
Starts strong, runs great for about 30-40 minutes then begins to lose power while blades are engaged. I can release the blades and let the sucker stand for a few seconds and the engine begins to sound “right” again. Then…once I start mowing again…same thing, engine loses steam. I can let is sit for 30-40 minutes and go through the whole routine of mowing for 30-40 minutes with no problem before the issues start again. There also seems to be an oil leak near the dipstick.
Here’s what I have done:
Compression check: 120psi on both cylinders. I’ve heard this number doesn’t mean much for these engines because they have a built-in release valve.
Replaced spark plugs.
Drained all the previous owners gas and replaced with “clean” gas.
Checked for spark with inline tester both resting, under load, and when it is acting up. Clean spark. At least that what the tester tells me.
Could it be:
Ignition coil? I know there will be a consensus that the DSAI thing is junk and my problem. My ignition coil number is 24-584-36. The kit that is supposed to “fix” this direct ignition problem does not show compatibility with my model coil number.
Worn/sticking valves? If so, can this be rebuilt with long term success or will the problem eventually resurface?
Carburetor?
Tiny rip in the seat?
Yes, I know I have posted this on other forums.
Thanks, all!
#2
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
No compression release used on command twin engines. Service manual list minimum compression to be at least 160 psi with no more than 15 percent difference between cylinders. Your module doesn't have an upgrade conversion since at the time of manufacture that was the upgraded system, but proper checking of the ignition modules requires the use of a HEI (high energy ignition tester) because a normal inline tester can show a faulty module as good.
I suspect that you have a bad module. When the engine is acting up try grounding the plugs one a a time and if you are dropping a cylinder the engine will die when you ground the good cylinder.
I suspect that you have a bad module. When the engine is acting up try grounding the plugs one a a time and if you are dropping a cylinder the engine will die when you ground the good cylinder.
#3
cpurvis
cpurvis
This is a long shot, but have you checked that the cylinder cooling fins are free of debris?
#4
A
arussel88
Thanks. Ok, just to confirm I will only be able to buy the same module as the two currently on my ride not one of the conversion modules? And by module you mean ignition coil module or is this something separate like that little black box near the engine?
Also, do you think it could be vapor lock or the something with the muffler? I tried all the gas cap tricks and such.
A
arussel88
No compression release used on command twin engines. Service manual list minimum compression to be at least 160 psi with no more than 15 percent difference between cylinders. Your module doesn't have an upgrade conversion since at the time of manufacture that was the upgraded system, but proper checking of the ignition modules requires the use of a HEI (high energy ignition tester) because a normal inline tester can show a faulty module as good.
I suspect that you have a bad module. When the engine is acting up try grounding the plugs one a a time and if you are dropping a cylinder the engine will die when you ground the good cylinder.
Thanks. Ok, just to confirm I will only be able to buy the same module as the two currently on my ride not one of the conversion modules? And by module you mean ignition coil module or is this something separate like that little black box near the engine?
Also, do you think it could be vapor lock or the something with the muffler? I tried all the gas cap tricks and such.
#5
A
arussel88
Clean as a whistle.
A
arussel88
This is a long shot, but have you checked that the cylinder cooling fins are free of debris?
Clean as a whistle.
#6
A
arussel88
A
arussel88
Original poster here....
It looks like I have the SAM module. Part # 24-584-31. Does this mean I need to purchase new coils and a new module or do these conversions eliminate the SAM?
It looks like I have the SAM module. Part # 24-584-31. Does this mean I need to purchase new coils and a new module or do these conversions eliminate the SAM?
#7
I
ILENGINE
The 24 584 31-s SAM used with the 24 584 36-s ignition modules get converted to the new MDI system with kit number 25 707 03-S. Remove and throw away both modules, and the SAM. The kit contains both new modules and the wiring parts to convert to the new system complete with instructions. The kit is just a little under a $100.
I
ILENGINE
Original poster here....
It looks like I have the SAM module. Part # 24-584-31. Does this mean I need to purchase new coils and a new module or do these conversions eliminate the SAM?
The 24 584 31-s SAM used with the 24 584 36-s ignition modules get converted to the new MDI system with kit number 25 707 03-S. Remove and throw away both modules, and the SAM. The kit contains both new modules and the wiring parts to convert to the new system complete with instructions. The kit is just a little under a $100.
#8
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
And taking a different tack.
Get yourself another fuel tank, pinch it off your push mower if you like, it does not need to be a big one.
put some fuel line & a tap on it.
When the mower starts to play up quickly plug in the new tank at the fuel pump inlet , you will need a plug for the old fuel line and a golf T will work really well for this.
If the mower runs fine on the new tank then you have a fuel supply problem generally debris in the tank.
Get yourself another fuel tank, pinch it off your push mower if you like, it does not need to be a big one.
put some fuel line & a tap on it.
When the mower starts to play up quickly plug in the new tank at the fuel pump inlet , you will need a plug for the old fuel line and a golf T will work really well for this.
If the mower runs fine on the new tank then you have a fuel supply problem generally debris in the tank.
#9
A
arussel88
A
arussel88
I pinpointed the oil leak. It's coming from that little screw-a-magid on the breather cover, I can safely assume the gasket is blown? Just below the carburetor. I have seen some posts where this cover design was discontinued due to hose issues but my hose is fine. (Pause for chuckle) Most folks are saying the cracked hose caused some serious carb damage which in turn caused some serious engine damage. Would the worn gasket have the same effect as a cracked hose? If so, how could this ruin the engine? The small "filter" under the breather cover was barely noticeable. Also, cleaned the carb really well. No noticeable signs of malfunction not even much gunk.
Probably going to buy the ignition coils and replace breather cover gasket then sell the dern thing.
If I decided not to sell...A rebuild kit goes for 250. I have a fella who will install for 250. Promises (160psi) after he's done with it. Let's say it's not the coils or carburetor and it's just worn/sticky valves. Can this be "fixed?" Guy at ExMark dealer told me the damage is done and the valves cant be fixed by putting a new set of rings etc on it.
Probably going to buy the ignition coils and replace breather cover gasket then sell the dern thing.
If I decided not to sell...A rebuild kit goes for 250. I have a fella who will install for 250. Promises (160psi) after he's done with it. Let's say it's not the coils or carburetor and it's just worn/sticky valves. Can this be "fixed?" Guy at ExMark dealer told me the damage is done and the valves cant be fixed by putting a new set of rings etc on it.
#10
cpurvis
cpurvis
The Guy at ExMark Dealer is either crooked as a dog's hind leg or dumber than an ox.
I suspect the former.
I suspect the former.
#11
mhavanti
mhavanti
Agree with cpurvis.
#12
A
arussel88
Thanks so much. I hate to keep comfirming....but....
Part # 25 707 03-S will work for me? The suggestions are about 50/50...50-I can't convert because my coil (24-584-36) and module (24-584-31) has either already been updgraded by the previous owner or the srevice bulletin doesn't apply to my motor (PA-CH740-0021) /coil/module, 50-use 25 707 03-S.
Would 25 707 03-S upgrade the coils and eliminate the module system?
A
arussel88
The 24 584 31-s SAM used with the 24 584 36-s ignition modules get converted to the new MDI system with kit number 25 707 03-S. Remove and throw away both modules, and the SAM. The kit contains both new modules and the wiring parts to convert to the new system complete with instructions. The kit is just a little under a $100.
Thanks so much. I hate to keep comfirming....but....
Part # 25 707 03-S will work for me? The suggestions are about 50/50...50-I can't convert because my coil (24-584-36) and module (24-584-31) has either already been updgraded by the previous owner or the srevice bulletin doesn't apply to my motor (PA-CH740-0021) /coil/module, 50-use 25 707 03-S.
Would 25 707 03-S upgrade the coils and eliminate the module system?
#13
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
0Re: Scag Turf Tiger/Kohler Command Pro 27 Frustrations
Here is where things gets complicated. you can get the 24 584 36-s ( 2 wire not 3)modules by themselves for replacement, but the 24 584 31-s SAM is NLA. So if somebody needs just the ignition module then you can get the ignition module but if you need a SAM then you have to order the 25 707 03-s kit. The 25 707 03-s Kit contains 2 new MDI modules, the necessary new kill wire, and a need spade connector to connect to the old kill wire. The old hot wire that went to the SAM gets taped up out of the way and then you remove and throw away the old 24 584 31-s SAM and both of the 24 584 36-s modules.
The different ignition systems are confusing because there was an analog SAM(ASAM) and digital SAM(DSAM) which gets converted to the MDI system. The DSAI system which used 3 wire ignition modules, but no SAM. and now the MDI, which look like normal single wire ignition modules, but you don't have to set an air gap because they are a set position not adjustable ignition module on the newer engines. The conversion kit only is used on the DSAM system.
So when you gave the ignition module part number is doesn't reference the parts bulletin, When you mentioned the SAM part number then that triggered the conversion bulletin. For me when I have an older Kohler with SAM with an ignition problem, I always check the SAM part number against the bulletin to see if it upgrades to the MDI system instead of just replacing the faulty ignition module.
Here is where things gets complicated. you can get the 24 584 36-s ( 2 wire not 3)modules by themselves for replacement, but the 24 584 31-s SAM is NLA. So if somebody needs just the ignition module then you can get the ignition module but if you need a SAM then you have to order the 25 707 03-s kit. The 25 707 03-s Kit contains 2 new MDI modules, the necessary new kill wire, and a need spade connector to connect to the old kill wire. The old hot wire that went to the SAM gets taped up out of the way and then you remove and throw away the old 24 584 31-s SAM and both of the 24 584 36-s modules.
The different ignition systems are confusing because there was an analog SAM(ASAM) and digital SAM(DSAM) which gets converted to the MDI system. The DSAI system which used 3 wire ignition modules, but no SAM. and now the MDI, which look like normal single wire ignition modules, but you don't have to set an air gap because they are a set position not adjustable ignition module on the newer engines. The conversion kit only is used on the DSAM system.
So when you gave the ignition module part number is doesn't reference the parts bulletin, When you mentioned the SAM part number then that triggered the conversion bulletin. For me when I have an older Kohler with SAM with an ignition problem, I always check the SAM part number against the bulletin to see if it upgrades to the MDI system instead of just replacing the faulty ignition module.
#14
A
arussel88
A
arussel88
Re: 0Re: Scag Turf Tiger/Kohler Command Pro 27 Frustrations
Thanks a bunch. So I bought a leak down tester and will give it a try tomorrow. Something I noticed...On my breather cover, I did not have an "oil sentry" or low oil pressure sensor screwed in to that tiny little hole next to the tube. Just a hex drive bolt. Could this have been bypassed somehow? Also, this is exactly where my leak is coming from.
Here is where things gets complicated. you can get the 24 584 36-s ( 2 wire not 3)modules by themselves for replacement, but the 24 584 31-s SAM is NLA. So if somebody needs just the ignition module then you can get the ignition module but if you need a SAM then you have to order the 25 707 03-s kit. The 25 707 03-s Kit contains 2 new MDI modules, the necessary new kill wire, and a need spade connector to connect to the old kill wire. The old hot wire that went to the SAM gets taped up out of the way and then you remove and throw away the old 24 584 31-s SAM and both of the 24 584 36-s modules.
The different ignition systems are confusing because there was an analog SAM(ASAM) and digital SAM(DSAM) which gets converted to the MDI system. The DSAI system which used 3 wire ignition modules, but no SAM. and now the MDI, which look like normal single wire ignition modules, but you don't have to set an air gap because they are a set position not adjustable ignition module on the newer engines. The conversion kit only is used on the DSAM system.
So when you gave the ignition module part number is doesn't reference the parts bulletin, When you mentioned the SAM part number then that triggered the conversion bulletin. For me when I have an older Kohler with SAM with an ignition problem, I always check the SAM part number against the bulletin to see if it upgrades to the MDI system instead of just replacing the faulty ignition module.
Thanks a bunch. So I bought a leak down tester and will give it a try tomorrow. Something I noticed...On my breather cover, I did not have an "oil sentry" or low oil pressure sensor screwed in to that tiny little hole next to the tube. Just a hex drive bolt. Could this have been bypassed somehow? Also, this is exactly where my leak is coming from.
#15
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Parts diagram shows an 1/8 inch pipe plug in that tiny hole. Looks similar to a set screw.
#16
A
arussel88
A
arussel88
So I went ahead and replaced the breather plate...no more oil leaks, that's a win.
I also went ahead and ordered the ignition coil/module replacement kit. I thought it worked but after about 1.5 hours the same thing happened, mower started to lose power.
A few points:
- With each start, the engine cranked for longer than what you would expect but still turned over.
- Even during the hour or so it ran really well, the engine would sound stressed when mowing uphill, but not enough to stall. Flat ground was fine.
- When the engine began to lose power, if I let off the "gas" and disengaged the blades, the engine would roar back to life. I can then reengage and mow for another 20 seconds or so. I could probably repeat this until the yard was finished.
- I noticed the battery gauge went to about -5 when the lose of power would come on.
- Once I decided to call it a day, I disengaged the blades and headed back to the garage with no problems. Full speed, up a rather steep driveway.
I'm going to let er' cool down and do a leak-down test.
Could this have anything to do with the PTO clutch or switch?
I feel like it could be the carburetor but wouldn't the issues begin sooner? Wouldn't issues arise both with blades engaged and while going full speed up a steep driveway?
I also went ahead and ordered the ignition coil/module replacement kit. I thought it worked but after about 1.5 hours the same thing happened, mower started to lose power.
A few points:
- With each start, the engine cranked for longer than what you would expect but still turned over.
- Even during the hour or so it ran really well, the engine would sound stressed when mowing uphill, but not enough to stall. Flat ground was fine.
- When the engine began to lose power, if I let off the "gas" and disengaged the blades, the engine would roar back to life. I can then reengage and mow for another 20 seconds or so. I could probably repeat this until the yard was finished.
- I noticed the battery gauge went to about -5 when the lose of power would come on.
- Once I decided to call it a day, I disengaged the blades and headed back to the garage with no problems. Full speed, up a rather steep driveway.
I'm going to let er' cool down and do a leak-down test.
Could this have anything to do with the PTO clutch or switch?
I feel like it could be the carburetor but wouldn't the issues begin sooner? Wouldn't issues arise both with blades engaged and while going full speed up a steep driveway?
#17
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
You originally stated that you had 120 psi compression. What is the compression reading when the engine is hot. This could be related to the compression but also has a hint of insufficient fuel flow, or possibly a hint of vapor lock. When this thing is acting up how hot is the carb bowl when you touch it with your hand.
#18
A
arussel88
I'll check compression and carb bowl temp tomorrow. I thought about vapor lock but it seems like I wouldn't be able to "save" the engine by backing off the blades. Also, if the engine completely loses power, I can crank it up with no problems. Well....I had some cranking this time but before I changed the coils I had no issues with cranking.
Now that I think of it...even at cold start, with the throttle at "start" position, I barely get any sound of a turn over, it's when I move to "run" that the engine actually turned over. Before the coils, starting in "start" was no problem.
A
arussel88
You originally stated that you had 120 psi compression. What is the compression reading when the engine is hot. This could be related to the compression but also has a hint of insufficient fuel flow, or possibly a hint of vapor lock. When this thing is acting up how hot is the carb bowl when you touch it with your hand.
I'll check compression and carb bowl temp tomorrow. I thought about vapor lock but it seems like I wouldn't be able to "save" the engine by backing off the blades. Also, if the engine completely loses power, I can crank it up with no problems. Well....I had some cranking this time but before I changed the coils I had no issues with cranking.
Now that I think of it...even at cold start, with the throttle at "start" position, I barely get any sound of a turn over, it's when I move to "run" that the engine actually turned over. Before the coils, starting in "start" was no problem.
#19
mhavanti
mhavanti
Won't hurt to take a few minutes to pull the cover tins, check the cooling fins around both cylinders as overheating can kill engines pretty quickly.
#20
A
arussel88
Thanks, I'll check. Wouldn't this cause a complete shutdown? No matter what happens with the power lose, if I disengage the blades..all is corrected and no power issues at all occur.
A
arussel88
Won't hurt to take a few minutes to pull the cover tins, check the cooling fins around both cylinders as overheating can kill engines pretty quickly.
Thanks, I'll check. Wouldn't this cause a complete shutdown? No matter what happens with the power lose, if I disengage the blades..all is corrected and no power issues at all occur.
#21
cpurvis
cpurvis
That's because you've relieved the engine of most of it's power demand when you disengage the blades.Thanks, I'll check. Wouldn't this cause a complete shutdown? No matter what happens with the power lose, if I disengage the blades..all is corrected and no power issues at all occur.
#23
mhavanti
mhavanti
And the answer is?
#24
A
arussel88
A
arussel88
Well......I was all ready to perform the leak down...hooked up the hose...dang tester gauge is broken. Still hooked it up and could hear and feel quite a bit of air coming out of the carb. Will return to Harbor Freight tomorrow for a replacement to get an actual reading.
Something else that i noticed....I noticed there was some gas under the fuel shutoff solenoid. Not much below the solenoid but quite a bit had pooled up in the wiring harness. I can only assume this is not the first time gas has pooled in the harness.
Something else that i noticed....I noticed there was some gas under the fuel shutoff solenoid. Not much below the solenoid but quite a bit had pooled up in the wiring harness. I can only assume this is not the first time gas has pooled in the harness.
#25
J
Joeandlib
J
Joeandlib
Hey-my husband has this exact same problem as you had. Did you ever get your problems fixedWell......I was all ready to perform the leak down...hooked up the hose...dang tester gauge is broken. Still hooked it up and could hear and feel quite a bit of air coming out of the carb. Will return to Harbor Freight tomorrow for a replacement to get an actual reading.
Something else that i noticed....I noticed there was some gas under the fuel shutoff solenoid. Not much below the solenoid but quite a bit had pooled up in the wiring harness. I can only assume this is not the first time gas has pooled in the harness.