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S240 Oil Change

#1

G

GMJim

I bought my S240 about mid summer this year and only have 6.8 hours on it. Winter showed up early this year and it's been sitting for about a month because I've been busy with other things. As an auto mechanic I don't like leaving used oil in an engine over winter storage and plan to change it but was wondering about changing out the break in oil before the (Kawasaki) recommended 8 hours. First off I can't confirm whether or not It's actually break in oil. Because I haven't had time to research the best oil to use in this thing I bought a filter and 10W-30 Turf guard oil from a JD dealer. It's supposed to be regular dino oil and not synthetic. I'll probably switch to synthetic next oil change. So I guess my question is am I dumping break in oil (if in fact it is break in oil) too soon or should I just do it?
Thanks
Jim


#2

I

ILENGINE

You would be fine changing the oil at 6.8 hours. And I have never seen a lawnmower or small engine company use break in oil in any engine.


#3

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Change it. Won't hurt a thing in the universe.


#4

G

GMJim

ILENGINE said:
You would be fine changing the oil at 6.8 hours. And I have never seen a lawnmower or small engine company use break in oil in any engine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I asked the dealer parts guy about the oil and he did say it was break in oil but the service department couldn't confirm it. Another thing I was reading in the manual was about the grease used. I use a black Moly grease for just about everything and the manual warns about mixing grease and naturally recommends their own. Should I use the overly expensive JD grease or will the high quality Molyslip I have be an issue? I'm an engine guy but not small engines so this info is very helpful. Thanks!


#5

cpurvis

cpurvis

Take a look at my picture and you'll see the effects of leaving oil in an engine all winter (every winter) and using inferior dino oil.


#6

AVB

AVB

Break in periods was once common but the oil is usually the same oil that engine normally uses. It just that engine builder wants to make sure all of the manufacturing residues to removed from the engine. It is the same for us that actually rebuild engines. Even as clean as we think got the engine there is still residues left from the honing of the cylinder alone. Engines specially those without oil filters are usually have an oil change within a few hours just to make nothing is floating around in the oil that could damage the engine.

I even do this change out on the V8s I rebuild that have an oil filter.


#7

G

GMJim

cpurvis said:
Take a look at my picture and you'll see the effects of leaving oil in an engine all winter (every winter) and using inferior dino oil.
Click to expand...
Ok! I'll bite. Why is it apart? I've been an auto mechanic / machinist for 46 years and build engines of all kinds BUT not small engines. I'm not afraid to ask questions about things I'm not familiar with and since I'm new to riding lawn mowers I figured this would be a good place to ask questions. I'm also a believer in synthetic lubricants. Opinions are like belly buttons (everybody has one) and I respect opinions other than my own. There are things in this JD manual that have me shaking my head and wonder if it was written for people who have no idea and will believe anything written down. I appreciate the help with my questions!
Thanks
P.S. I did confirm with JD that the on again and off again decision to use break in oil in their Kawasaki engines is on again. I'll leave the oil in for another couple of hours on the advice from Kawasaki service.


#8

B

bertsmobile1

Jim.
To take things from the top.
IT IS A LAWNMOWER ENGINE
IT IS A VERTICAL SHAFT LAWNMOWER ENGINE
IT IS THE CHEAPEST ENGINE IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE
You are stressing about nothing
The engine has an expected life of around 1000 hours as does the hydros
Half of the mowers out there will never get an oil change for their entire life.
The engines are cheap because the precision is very low even by automotive standards.
The engines are lazy ( 4500 rpm ceiling ) low reving with an extremely low power to displacement ratio.
Thus you can toss out most of what you know about engines & engine maintenance as it is overkill with a capital O .
Now FWIW I run all new engines that I fit with plain old SAE 30 mower oil because it is higher zinc than most car oils and contains a lot more anti corrosion addatives than every car oil.
They get between 1 & 2 hours of break in ( well I got to mow my own grass ) after which I do an oil & filter change then hand the mower back to the customer.
I give them a free in warranty service at 50 hours ( no labour charge ) and about 1/3 actually bring them back for it.

About 1/2 the mowers I service come in with the oil lower than the minimum mark on the dip stick .
Now that Honda have exited the mower engine market there are no high precision mower engines left in the market.
If you want to frighten yourself download the IPL for your engine and look at what parts are in there, or to be more precise what parts you would have expected to be in there that are missing .
All mower engines are built to a price, not a quality standard.
If you think I am talking through my anal cavity then look at the difference between the prices of Horizontal crank engines and vertical shaft engines.
The former are nearly twice the price because twice the engineering goes into them and they are expected to run around 10 times the hours that a mower engine does.
But try and find a compressor, pump or generator with an hour meter on them.

The average 500cc air cooled carburettored motorcycle engine puts out around 60 Hp
The average 500cc mower engine put out about 20 Hp.

Now FWIW you will get the best service life from your engine, if you follow your instincts and change the oil immediately after the last mow of the season.
Forget the numbers, they really are just a guide .
And to drive home how meaningless the numbers actually are, the hour meters are fitted by the mower maker, not the engine makers .
Thus on most JD's the meter records the hours that the key is in the on position , ( engine running or not ).
On Toros the meter records the hours that the PTO is on ,( engine running or not ).
Engines fitted with a tiny tach will record the hours that engine is running as they use an induction pick up on one of the HT leads.

I play with vintage & veteran motorcycles and oils are the most debated topic.
My advice about the best oil is the stuff you just took out and the more often the better .
Synthetics will not hurt a mower engine but as most of them have a lower viscosity base they are more prone to leaking , particularly when not being used .
My customers that swear by them do notice that the engine gives off some exhaust smoke when first started and this is simply oil that has leaked past the rings and gets blown into the muffler where it slowly smokes off.
I have removed mufflers to confirm this.
My personal belief is synthetics in the engine are lipstick on a pig, but if pigs wearing lipstick is you thing then go ahead.
It is your lawnmower so do what makes you feel comfortable.
There are lots of people ( including many of my customers ) who use the same oil in everything fo convienance sake and very few of them report a higher rate of failures than others who have a garage with 30 different oils in them.
The caveat on this is the one oil customers do tend to change their oils regularly.


#9

G

GMJim

bertsmobile1 said:
Jim.
To take things from the top.
IT IS A LAWNMOWER ENGINE
IT IS A VERTICAL SHAFT LAWNMOWER ENGINE
IT IS THE CHEAPEST ENGINE IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE
You are stressing about nothing
The engine has an expected life of around 1000 hours as does the hydros
Half of the mowers out there will never get an oil change for their entire life.
The engines are cheap because the precision is very low even by automotive standards.
The engines are lazy ( 4500 rpm ceiling ) low reving with an extremely low power to displacement ratio.
Thus you can toss out most of what you know about engines & engine maintenance as it is overkill with a capital O .
Now FWIW I run all new engines that I fit with plain old SAE 30 mower oil because it is higher zinc than most car oils and contains a lot more anti corrosion addatives than every car oil.
They get between 1 & 2 hours of break in ( well I got to mow my own grass ) after which I do an oil & filter change then hand the mower back to the customer.
I give them a free in warranty service at 50 hours ( no labour charge ) and about 1/3 actually bring them back for it.

About 1/2 the mowers I service come in with the oil lower than the minimum mark on the dip stick .
Now that Honda have exited the mower engine market there are no high precision mower engines left in the market.
If you want to frighten yourself download the IPL for your engine and look at what parts are in there, or to be more precise what parts you would have expected to be in there that are missing .
All mower engines are built to a price, not a quality standard.
If you think I am talking through my anal cavity then look at the difference between the prices of Horizontal crank engines and vertical shaft engines.
The former are nearly twice the price because twice the engineering goes into them and they are expected to run around 10 times the hours that a mower engine does.
But try and find a compressor, pump or generator with an hour meter on them.

The average 500cc air cooled carburettored motorcycle engine puts out around 60 Hp
The average 500cc mower engine put out about 20 Hp.

Now FWIW you will get the best service life from your engine, if you follow your instincts and change the oil immediately after the last mow of the season.
Forget the numbers, they really are just a guide .
And to drive home how meaningless the numbers actually are, the hour meters are fitted by the mower maker, not the engine makers .
Thus on most JD's the meter records the hours that the key is in the on position , ( engine running or not ).
On Toros the meter records the hours that the PTO is on ,( engine running or not ).
Engines fitted with a tiny tach will record the hours that engine is running as they use an induction pick up on one of the HT leads.

I play with vintage & veteran motorcycles and oils are the most debated topic.
My advice about the best oil is the stuff you just took out and the more often the better .
Synthetics will not hurt a mower engine but as most of them have a lower viscosity base they are more prone to leaking , particularly when not being used .
My customers that swear by them do notice that the engine gives off some exhaust smoke when first started and this is simply oil that has leaked past the rings and gets blown into the muffler where it slowly smokes off.
I have removed mufflers to confirm this.
My personal belief is synthetics in the engine are lipstick on a pig, but if pigs wearing lipstick is you thing then go ahead.
It is your lawnmower so do what makes you feel comfortable.
There are lots of people ( including many of my customers ) who use the same oil in everything fo convienance sake and very few of them report a higher rate of failures than others who have a garage with 30 different oils in them.
The caveat on this is the one oil customers do tend to change their oils regularly.
Click to expand...

Thanks for spending the time with all of this info. Believe me I'm not stressing at all. I use a high zinc content oil in some of the flat tappet engines I work on because of cam break in issues. I have a Toro 21 inch lawnmower with a Suzuki engine it and is 26 years old. Doesn't burn a drop of oil and gets synthetic Amsoil oil each year. Like I said earlier I'm not familiar with small engines and I know they are different in many ways so I'll keep on learning.
Thanks


#10

cpurvis

cpurvis

GMJim said:
Ok! I'll bite. Why is it apart? I've been an auto mechanic / machinist for 46 years and build engines of all kinds BUT not small engines. I'm not afraid to ask questions about things I'm not familiar with and since I'm new to riding lawn mowers I figured this would be a good place to ask questions. I'm also a believer in synthetic lubricants. Opinions are like belly buttons (everybody has one) and I respect opinions other than my own. There are things in this JD manual that have me shaking my head and wonder if it was written for people who have no idea and will believe anything written down. I appreciate the help with my questions!
Thanks
P.S. I did confirm with JD that the on again and off again decision to use break in oil in their Kawasaki engines is on again. I'll leave the oil in for another couple of hours on the advice from Kawasaki service.
Click to expand...
If you look close, you'll see that the gasket on that housing failed. That's why the engine was apart--to replace that gasket. I didn't clean the inside because it didn't need cleaning. I do use "C" rated oils such as Rotella,


#11

B

bertsmobile1

GMJim said:
Thanks for spending the time with all of this info. Believe me I'm not stressing at all. I use a high zinc content oil in some of the flat tappet engines I work on because of cam break in issues. I have a Toro 21 inch lawnmower with a Suzuki engine it and is 26 years old. Doesn't burn a drop of oil and gets synthetic Amsoil oil each year. Like I said earlier I'm not familiar with small engines and I know they are different in many ways so I'll keep on learning.
Thanks
Click to expand...

I hope the Suzuki burns some oil as it is a 2 stroke , :) and a very good engine it is too.
I have a couple of them here fitted to 24" Big Bobs and they run flawlessly. How much is due to the Mikuni carb is another question.
Not quite up to the standard of the Victa power Torque which was too good for the USA so your government invented "safety problems" and banned it thus you are unlikely to see one.
When I bought the repair run the vendor spent 1/2 the day reciting "it is a lawnmower, not a space shuttle" and it still took me several years to come to terms with the design & build quality.
I was appaled the first time I pulled one apart & found not only did it have no bearings inside but there was not even a thrust washer between the crank & the sump casting , the engine relied entirely on splash and the filter did nothing but filter some of the oil in the sump that was not being splashed around the engine .
Then the idea of setting end float by using different thickness sump gaskets ( which compress when tightened ) had me scratching my head wondering how these things managed to run al all.


#12

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

bertsmobile1 said:
I hope the Suzuki burns some oil as it is a 2 stroke , :) and a very good engine it is too.
I have a couple of them here fitted to 24" Big Bobs and they run flawlessly. How much is due to the Mikuni carb is another question.
Not quite up to the standard of the Victa power Torque which was too good for the USA so your government invented "safety problems" and banned it thus you are unlikely to see one.
When I bought the repair run the vendor spent 1/2 the day reciting "it is a lawnmower, not a space shuttle" and it still took me several years to come to terms with the design & build quality.
I was appaled the first time I pulled one apart & found not only did it have no bearings inside but there was not even a thrust washer between the crank & the sump casting , the engine relied entirely on splash and the filter did nothing but filter some of the oil in the sump that was not being splashed around the engine .
Then the idea of setting end float by using different thickness sump gaskets ( which compress when tightened ) had me scratching my head wondering how these things managed to run al all.
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking with Briggs when they had different thickness gasket to set endplay, unless they account for crush with the torque of the bolts some how.


#13

Russ2251

Russ2251

Not quite up to the standard of the Victa power Torque which was too good for the USA so your government invented "safety problems" and banned it thus you are unlikely to see one.
Click to expand...
The bashing is gettin' kinda' tired don't ya think?


#14

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

I think the U.S. Has a few more idiots than Australia....


#15

B

bertsmobile1

Russ2251 said:
The bashing is gettin' kinda' tired don't ya think?
Click to expand...
Never let a chance go by Russ
But point is taken.
I will try to limit myself to once per calender year.


#16

G

GMJim

bertsmobile1 said:
I hope the Suzuki burns some oil as it is a 2 stroke , :) and a very good engine it is too.
I have a couple of them here fitted to 24" Big Bobs and they run flawlessly. How much is due to the Mikuni carb is another question.
Not quite up to the standard of the Victa power Torque which was too good for the USA so your government invented "safety problems" and banned it thus you are unlikely to see one.
When I bought the repair run the vendor spent 1/2 the day reciting "it is a lawnmower, not a space shuttle" and it still took me several years to come to terms with the design & build quality.
I was appaled the first time I pulled one apart & found not only did it have no bearings inside but there was not even a thrust washer between the crank & the sump casting , the engine relied entirely on splash and the filter did nothing but filter some of the oil in the sump that was not being splashed around the engine .
Then the idea of setting end float by using different thickness sump gaskets ( which compress when tightened ) had me scratching my head wondering how these things managed to run al all.
Click to expand...

The Suzuki engine in my Toro lawnmower is a 4 stroke. Doesn't burn any oil at all, starts on the first pull.


#17

tom3

tom3

bertsmobile1 said:
Jim.
To take things from the top.
IT IS A LAWNMOWER ENGINE
IT IS A VERTICAL SHAFT LAWNMOWER ENGINE
IT IS THE CHEAPEST ENGINE IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE
Click to expand...

For sure! Look at the millions of B&S engines with untreated bare aluminum bores, iron crankshafts running on the cast aluminum case journals, power take offs running off the camshafts, etc etc. Used to buy a brand new push mower for $49.95 complete here in the states.


#18

B

bertsmobile1

GMJim said:
The Suzuki engine in my Toro lawnmower is a 4 stroke. Doesn't burn any oil at all, starts on the first pull.
Click to expand...
Interesting Jim.
Another new one to me.
Only even seen 2 stroke Suzukis on mowers and my parts wholesalers don't list any 4 stroke Suzuki parts.
Feel like popping up the model numbers ( if they are still there ) as I would like to pull the manuals down off the Toro web site.
Learning about stull I don't know about is the real reason why I am here.


#19

cpurvis

cpurvis

I've got a Toro/Suzuki and it's 2 cycle. I didn't know Suzuki mad 4 cycle engines for Toro, either.


#20

G

GMJim

bertsmobile1 said:
Interesting Jim.
Another new one to me.
Only even seen 2 stroke Suzukis on mowers and my parts wholesalers don't list any 4 stroke Suzuki parts.
Feel like popping up the model numbers ( if they are still there ) as I would like to pull the manuals down off the Toro web site.
Learning about stull I don't know about is the real reason why I am here.
Click to expand...

Model number is 26623. I bought this new in Sept. 1990. The Toro parts manual and info is at the bottom of the post, Just click on it.

20191217_214330_resized.jpg

20191217_214351_resized.jpg

20191217_214212_resized.jpg

Toro Parts

Parts – Lawnmower | Toro

www.toro.com www.toro.com


#21

tom3

tom3

Wow. That's what a Toro should be. I think I see a roller bearing on the crankshaft even. Quality stuff there.


#22

G

GMJim

tom3 said:
Wow. That's what a Toro should be. I think I see a roller bearing on the crankshaft even. Quality stuff there.
Click to expand...

Yeah I just about crapped when I saw the price but It's a quality machine. The ONLY parts I've replaced in 29 years is a front wheel bolt/axle and an idler pulley with a worn bearing for the blade drive belt..


#23

B

bertsmobile1

You are a gentleman sir.
Interesting that it was $ 880 in 1990
So annualized over the 29 years that you have owned it, the grand price of $ 30/yr and it will probably run another 20.
Ask some one to pay $ 880 for a mower now days and they will call you a robber , let alone the 2019 equivalent of $ 3790 ( and that is just inflation ).
A prime example of saving a fortune by spending more on a piece of quality kit something that most people can just not understand .


#24

G

GMJim

bertsmobile1 said:
You are a gentleman sir.
Interesting that it was $ 880 in 1990
So annualized over the 29 years that you have owned it, the grand price of $ 30/yr and it will probably run another 20.
Ask some one to pay $ 880 for a mower now days and they will call you a robber , let alone the 2019 equivalent of $ 3790 ( and that is just inflation ).
A prime example of saving a fortune by spending more on a piece of quality kit something that most people can just not understand .
Click to expand...

Basically I was after the heavy aluminum deck, the 4 cycle Suzuki was a bonus. My Mother bought the next model up with a key start. Battery didn't last long and wound up being a pull start.


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