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Riding Mower: Cub or Deere? 4-ish acres, bumpy terrain, hills, many trees.
#1
D
DeerCub
D
DeerCub
Greetings. I'll be needing to buy a new mower soon. My primary dilemma is between John Deere and Cub Cadet, both of which have a dealership in a nearby town. I need a garden tractor that does well on hills and bumpy terrain. Though there are many trees on the land I'll be mowing, the hills and bumps pose the greatest issues -- as such, a decent turning radius is a bonus rather than a necessity. Ridding the gravel driveway of snow is also a tastk I'd like my mower to be capable of. I'm budgeting this purchase "in the ballpark" of $3,000, phrased as such because Cub's only garden tractor is the XT2 GX54", which sits at $3,300.
Elaborating on the details of the terrain, the main hilly offender is a steep slope that meets the road. At its worst, the slope may be (very rough guess) six yards from bottom to top along the slope. At best, maybe two or less. (I'm not sure what the worst incline is, but it threatened to throw me off the old mower.) The side-to-side length, however, is quite a stretch, probably 250-300 feet. The few other hilly areas on the property are somewhere in between the above two extremes, but far from the worst, and none of them stretch very far.
I know little about how to choose a quality mower. I've heard bad things about Cub Cadet's warranty servicing, but only rumors at this point. John Deere's website isn't very informative as far as distinguishing lawn vs garden tractors. Any assistance with making my decision is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Elaborating on the details of the terrain, the main hilly offender is a steep slope that meets the road. At its worst, the slope may be (very rough guess) six yards from bottom to top along the slope. At best, maybe two or less. (I'm not sure what the worst incline is, but it threatened to throw me off the old mower.) The side-to-side length, however, is quite a stretch, probably 250-300 feet. The few other hilly areas on the property are somewhere in between the above two extremes, but far from the worst, and none of them stretch very far.
I know little about how to choose a quality mower. I've heard bad things about Cub Cadet's warranty servicing, but only rumors at this point. John Deere's website isn't very informative as far as distinguishing lawn vs garden tractors. Any assistance with making my decision is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
#2
BlazNT
Garden tractors have 23" tall or taller tires in rear.
BlazNT
Greetings. I'll be needing to buy a new mower soon. My primary dilemma is between John Deere and Cub Cadet, both of which have a dealership in a nearby town. I need a garden tractor that does well on hills and bumpy terrain. Though there are many trees on the land I'll be mowing, the hills and bumps pose the greatest issues -- as such, a decent turning radius is a bonus rather than a necessity. Ridding the gravel driveway of snow is also a tastk I'd like my mower to be capable of. I'm budgeting this purchase "in the ballpark" of $3,000, phrased as such because Cub's only garden tractor is the XT2 GX54", which sits at $3,300.
Elaborating on the details of the terrain, the main hilly offender is a steep slope that meets the road. At its worst, the slope may be (very rough guess) six yards from bottom to top along the slope. At best, maybe two or less. (I'm not sure what the worst incline is, but it threatened to throw me off the old mower.) The side-to-side length, however, is quite a stretch, probably 250-300 feet. The few other hilly areas on the property are somewhere in between the above two extremes, but far from the worst, and none of them stretch very far.
I know little about how to choose a quality mower. I've heard bad things about Cub Cadet's warranty servicing, but only rumors at this point. John Deere's website isn't very informative as far as distinguishing lawn vs garden tractors. Any assistance with making my decision is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Garden tractors have 23" tall or taller tires in rear.
#3
D
DeerCub
D
DeerCub
Now I don't even remember why I confined myself to JD and CC, so scratch that restriction. I've not heard a single positive thing about MTD, just negative, so I'm looking to avoid those. Uncertain about JD, though, and I've read that they don't make garden tractors, so I'm checking out Craftsman and Husqvarna garden tractors now. The reviewer over at TodaysMower.com was gushing over the 2015 Craftsman G5500 Model 20403 54 in 24 hp in his review. Going to the Sears website to investigate, I find the Craftsman 54" Fast Auto 24 HP Briggs & Stratton V-Twin Turn Tight® Garden Tractor, which would appear to be the current version of what the reviewer was talking about. Someone who reviewed that on the Sears site indicated that it is basically identical to the Husqvarna GT54CS (due to being manufactured by Husqvarna). So, JD is still in the running, but I'm now branching out to consider non-MTD Craftsmans and Husqvarnas.
What are everyone's thoughts on MTD and non-MTD brands? Am I on a good path with my research?
What are everyone's thoughts on MTD and non-MTD brands? Am I on a good path with my research?
#4
BlazNT
BlazNT
Just for your knowledge. Craftsman model numbers starting with 917 are Husqvarna and any other numbers will be MTD.
#5
E
eric102
E
eric102
What you really need is all wheel drive for the steep hills and moving snow, then 4 wheel steering for quickly mowing around trees and landscaping. A John Deere X739 would be perfect for your needs except for the price.
#6
javjacob
javjacob
As far as new John Deere's go the real garden tractors start with the X500 series which cost in the ball park of $6K-$8K and the X700 series which go all the way up to $13K.
The so called tractors you see for sale at places like Lowes and Home Depot are all lawn tractors. One quick way to tell the difference is garden tractors have 23" tall rear tires or bigger and are bolted on with 5 lug nuts. Lawn tractors just have a keyway with 1 bolt in the center.
I would suggest looking at used John Deere garden tractors. There are a lot of good deals on used X500's and X530's. Other older models to look at are the 325, 335, 345, GX and GT series. These are very well built machines.
The so called tractors you see for sale at places like Lowes and Home Depot are all lawn tractors. One quick way to tell the difference is garden tractors have 23" tall rear tires or bigger and are bolted on with 5 lug nuts. Lawn tractors just have a keyway with 1 bolt in the center.
I would suggest looking at used John Deere garden tractors. There are a lot of good deals on used X500's and X530's. Other older models to look at are the 325, 335, 345, GX and GT series. These are very well built machines.
#7
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The difference between lawn tractors and garden tractors is mainly in the transmission.
Garden tractors have far more robust transmissions because they are designed to haul/push impliments such as snow ploughs, rakes , harrows, trenchers ,rotary hoes, etc , etc .
They also have a much more substantial chassis to take this extra load.
Usually a GT will have an engine with more torque. again confusing because the two engines will look the same and have the same HP ratings
GT's will have proper tie rod ends on the steering linkages where as the LT's with just bend over the linkage and poke it through a hole.
Where it gets confusing is a lot of GT's are made with the same press dies as LT's and the difference is the steel is thicker, something that you can not really see and is further obscurred by heavy powder coatings that make thin steel feel thick between your fingers.
like everything, mowers are very price sensitive so the factories try every trick in the book to make theirs 50¢ cheaper than the opposition and this leads to drastic reductions in the quality.
As you go up the price scale, generally you get a far better machine till you end up in the top end of the Lawn Tractor range and drop into Garden tractors where the same philosophy applies so the bottom end Garden tractors are not much different to top end Lawn tractors, save the thicker steel. Then as you go up the price scale they get closer & closer to micro tractors and less like lawn mowers, right up to hydraulic steering & hydraulic PTO's.
Now as to your situation.
1) the bigger the tyre diameter, the smoother the ride over rough terrain
2) the heavier , WIDER and longer the mower, the more stable it will be on slopes
3) lugged tyres will give a lot better traction on slopes than turf tyres.
4) wider wheels spread the load but do not give better stability on slopes.
5) horizontal crankshaft engines handle steep slopes a lot better than vertical crankshaft engines and are generally substantially more robust as they are designed for 5000 hours comparred to 500 for verticals.
Garden tractors have far more robust transmissions because they are designed to haul/push impliments such as snow ploughs, rakes , harrows, trenchers ,rotary hoes, etc , etc .
They also have a much more substantial chassis to take this extra load.
Usually a GT will have an engine with more torque. again confusing because the two engines will look the same and have the same HP ratings
GT's will have proper tie rod ends on the steering linkages where as the LT's with just bend over the linkage and poke it through a hole.
Where it gets confusing is a lot of GT's are made with the same press dies as LT's and the difference is the steel is thicker, something that you can not really see and is further obscurred by heavy powder coatings that make thin steel feel thick between your fingers.
like everything, mowers are very price sensitive so the factories try every trick in the book to make theirs 50¢ cheaper than the opposition and this leads to drastic reductions in the quality.
As you go up the price scale, generally you get a far better machine till you end up in the top end of the Lawn Tractor range and drop into Garden tractors where the same philosophy applies so the bottom end Garden tractors are not much different to top end Lawn tractors, save the thicker steel. Then as you go up the price scale they get closer & closer to micro tractors and less like lawn mowers, right up to hydraulic steering & hydraulic PTO's.
Now as to your situation.
1) the bigger the tyre diameter, the smoother the ride over rough terrain
2) the heavier , WIDER and longer the mower, the more stable it will be on slopes
3) lugged tyres will give a lot better traction on slopes than turf tyres.
4) wider wheels spread the load but do not give better stability on slopes.
5) horizontal crankshaft engines handle steep slopes a lot better than vertical crankshaft engines and are generally substantially more robust as they are designed for 5000 hours comparred to 500 for verticals.
#8
javjacob
javjacob
I agree with most of what you said except #5. How does a horizontal shaft motor do better on slopes and last longer than a vertical shaft motor? A liquid cooled vertical shaft motor with full pressure lubrication will last just as long as a horizontal shaft motor. Vertical shaft motors might have a bad rep since the low end lawn tractors all have vertical shaft engines and many are built really cheap and some don't even have oil filters. The high end lawn tractors and medium duty garden tractors (X300 and X500 series John Deere's) with vertical shaft engines are not cheaped out and built with the same quality as the horizontal shaft motors.
#9
B
bertsmobile1
Horizontal shaft engines have different shape sump.
It is deeper and thus the engine can be tipped to a much greater angle before the oil pump is out of the oil supply.
Vertical shaft motors have a large shallow sump so quite small angles will have the pump pumping frotthy air not oil.
I keep an old sump which I fill with water then tilt to explain this to customers who come in with an oil starvation seizure.
My service footprint is very hilly and I get at least 3 seized engines every season.
This is the prime reason why the instruction book warns against mowing along a slope.
While a steepish slope can topple the mower a quite shallow slope can starve the engine of oil.
Second consideration is service life.
Both types have a design life of around 10 years.
However vertical shafts are only used on mowers and DOMESTIC mowers get used 1 day a week 20 to 30 weeks a year around 50 hours a year so have a 500 hour service life
Horizontal shaft engines go on pumps, compressors, skid steers, tow motors, trenchers, rotary hoes and the like which are designed to be used every day and their 10 year life goes 5000 hours.
Thus the horizontal motor is built to a much higher standard than a vertical engine, better quality materials and better made which is reflected in the price.
Two otherwise identical looking engines, the vertical shaft will be nearly 1/2 the price of the horizontal engine because it is made cheaper to be used almost excluseivly in the very price sensitive lawn mower market.
Honda was the big exception, their engines were almost the same which made them too expensive for use in lawnmowers because not even commercial users were willing to pay the extra for a superior engine that would pay for the excess price tag within the first 12 months. Honda refused to downgrade their engines so they exited the vertical engine market.
Not too long ago. all the top end commercial mowers used horizontal shaft engines and lot of the better ones still do because the engines are better.
There is a world of difference between a forged steel crankshaft and a cast malleable iron crankshaft.
The former is found in nearly all horizontal engines and the latter is found in most vertical shaft engines and all domestic vertical engines.
B
bertsmobile1
I agree with most of what you said except #5. How does a horizontal shaft motor do better on slopes and last longer than a vertical shaft motor? A liquid cooled vertical shaft motor with full pressure lubrication will last just as long as a horizontal shaft motor. Vertical shaft motors might have a bad rep since the low end lawn tractors all have vertical shaft engines and many are built really cheap and some don't even have oil filters. The high end lawn tractors and medium duty garden tractors (X300 and X500 series John Deere's) with vertical shaft engines are not cheaped out and built with the same quality as the horizontal shaft motors.
Horizontal shaft engines have different shape sump.
It is deeper and thus the engine can be tipped to a much greater angle before the oil pump is out of the oil supply.
Vertical shaft motors have a large shallow sump so quite small angles will have the pump pumping frotthy air not oil.
I keep an old sump which I fill with water then tilt to explain this to customers who come in with an oil starvation seizure.
My service footprint is very hilly and I get at least 3 seized engines every season.
This is the prime reason why the instruction book warns against mowing along a slope.
While a steepish slope can topple the mower a quite shallow slope can starve the engine of oil.
Second consideration is service life.
Both types have a design life of around 10 years.
However vertical shafts are only used on mowers and DOMESTIC mowers get used 1 day a week 20 to 30 weeks a year around 50 hours a year so have a 500 hour service life
Horizontal shaft engines go on pumps, compressors, skid steers, tow motors, trenchers, rotary hoes and the like which are designed to be used every day and their 10 year life goes 5000 hours.
Thus the horizontal motor is built to a much higher standard than a vertical engine, better quality materials and better made which is reflected in the price.
Two otherwise identical looking engines, the vertical shaft will be nearly 1/2 the price of the horizontal engine because it is made cheaper to be used almost excluseivly in the very price sensitive lawn mower market.
Honda was the big exception, their engines were almost the same which made them too expensive for use in lawnmowers because not even commercial users were willing to pay the extra for a superior engine that would pay for the excess price tag within the first 12 months. Honda refused to downgrade their engines so they exited the vertical engine market.
Not too long ago. all the top end commercial mowers used horizontal shaft engines and lot of the better ones still do because the engines are better.
There is a world of difference between a forged steel crankshaft and a cast malleable iron crankshaft.
The former is found in nearly all horizontal engines and the latter is found in most vertical shaft engines and all domestic vertical engines.
#10
javjacob
javjacob
Good info! I do have to disagree that all vertical shaft engines are built cheaper though the majority I would agree. Honda builds a lot of vertical shaft engines that last thousands of hours and so does Kawasaki. The air cooled Kawasaki vertical shaft motors are pretty well known for going 2,000 hours and the liquid cooled Kawasaki vertical motors are well known to last twice as long as the air cooled versions. Actually they don't really even know the lifespan of the liquid cooled Kawasaki vertical shaft motors because very few have actually been wore out yet. There are exceptions is all I am saying.
#11
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
We are getting way off topic here however when I open up a vertical shaft engine and see a lipped ball race on the lower bearing rather than a thrust washer taking up the end float sitting on the bare case, I will change my opinion. Or even a radial roller / ball carrying the weight of the crank with a roller on the top to take the latteral load levered through the crank.
Remember the crank is being pulled by the drive belts and this force acts as a lever on the crank with the fulcrum at the lower bearing and the resistive load at the upper bearing.
Horozontal cranks can & many do have the crank case joint along the line of the crank which allows for self aligning ball baring to take up the end float rather than doing things like fitting thicker gaskets to adjust end float.
And yes Honda used to make a lot of vertical engines which were the top line but they only do the small push mower engines now.
Kawakasi moved in to take Honda's place but they are doing what Honda refused to do , downgrade their product to a price level that the "market" will pay.
Talk to any one who repairs engines and they will tell you the quality is on the decline.
Remember the crank is being pulled by the drive belts and this force acts as a lever on the crank with the fulcrum at the lower bearing and the resistive load at the upper bearing.
Horozontal cranks can & many do have the crank case joint along the line of the crank which allows for self aligning ball baring to take up the end float rather than doing things like fitting thicker gaskets to adjust end float.
And yes Honda used to make a lot of vertical engines which were the top line but they only do the small push mower engines now.
Kawakasi moved in to take Honda's place but they are doing what Honda refused to do , downgrade their product to a price level that the "market" will pay.
Talk to any one who repairs engines and they will tell you the quality is on the decline.
#12
RudyP
I have been following this thread and wanted to know which machine you decided on. I too am looking to purchase a new lawn tractor soon, although my old Cub is still going strong. I only mow 2 acres but it is has some slopes and a few challenging areas and I definitely will not drop down to the weaker K46 trans offered in either the Cub XT2 or JD X300 series. The Cub XT3 fits my wallet better than the higher priced JD X500 or JD X700 series albeit they would accommodate a hitch for plows, discs, etc. that I could use, where as the Cub XT3 will not. Thanks for any responses or advice.
RudyP
Greetings. I'll be needing to buy a new mower soon. My primary dilemma is between John Deere and Cub Cadet, both of which have a dealership in a nearby town. I need a garden tractor that does well on hills and bumpy terrain. Though there are many trees on the land I'll be mowing, the hills and bumps pose the greatest issues -- as such, a decent turning radius is a bonus rather than a necessity. Ridding the gravel driveway of snow is also a tastk I'd like my mower to be capable of. I'm budgeting this purchase "in the ballpark" of $3,000, phrased as such because Cub's only garden tractor is the XT2 GX54", which sits at $3,300.
Elaborating on the details of the terrain, the main hilly offender is a steep slope that meets the road. At its worst, the slope may be (very rough guess) six yards from bottom to top along the slope. At best, maybe two or less. (I'm not sure what the worst incline is, but it threatened to throw me off the old mower.) The side-to-side length, however, is quite a stretch, probably 250-300 feet. The few other hilly areas on the property are somewhere in between the above two extremes, but far from the worst, and none of them stretch very far.
I know little about how to choose a quality mower. I've heard bad things about Cub Cadet's warranty servicing, but only rumors at this point. John Deere's website isn't very informative as far as distinguishing lawn vs garden tractors. Any assistance with making my decision is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I have been following this thread and wanted to know which machine you decided on. I too am looking to purchase a new lawn tractor soon, although my old Cub is still going strong. I only mow 2 acres but it is has some slopes and a few challenging areas and I definitely will not drop down to the weaker K46 trans offered in either the Cub XT2 or JD X300 series. The Cub XT3 fits my wallet better than the higher priced JD X500 or JD X700 series albeit they would accommodate a hitch for plows, discs, etc. that I could use, where as the Cub XT3 will not. Thanks for any responses or advice.
#13
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
With all the available information on the slope angle a specific tractor is capable of safely mowing it is kind of ridiculous tractors are still being rolled and injuring or killing people. Measuring the slope of your terrain to compare it to your tractor's capability, well that's grade school math, just do it.
#14
RudyP
RudyP
I totally agree. Negotiating slope angles is a piece of cake with my old shaft drive Cub, I just move the cold beverage from the cup holder and park my butt on the high side fender then let'r rip tater chip.:laughing: