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Replacement Engine Flywheel mismatch questions
#1
F
fergy59
F
fergy59
Howdy folks,
I have a Dixon with a locked B&S 28Q777 that I'm replacing with the recommended B&S 33R877-0003, with instructions to reuse the flywheel and alternator from the old engine. The Dixon was given to me by good friends, elderly lady who's husband had drained the oil for an oil change and forgot to add new oil, so it locked up tight next time she tried to mow with it.
The old engine has a 16 amp alternator and the new only a 9 amp. Thus the reuse of the old parts on the new engine. So, I've swapped the alternator and voltage regulator and was putting the old flywheel on when the thought occurred to me to lay both flywheels side by side and compare them. I immediately noticed that the outside magnet that sits on the rim of the flywheel to fire the magneto coil is in a different orientation compared to the flywheel sheer key slot. I mean it is way off, maybe a third to half way around the flywheel compared to the old one. I verified that I'm not insane and laid a screwdriver against it to make sure I was looking at the magnets on each of them and the screwdriver snapped up against it like it should on both.
It seems to me that if I install the old flywheel on the new engine the spark timing would be way off, right?
So, I flip both flywheels over and inspect the alternator magnets and they seem to be identical in size, and in researching this last night I read on the B&S Alternator replacement guide "The 9 and 16 amp regulated systems use flywheels with the large alternator magnets." The old engine is 16 A and new engine is 9 A.
It would seem to me that I could use the 16 amp alternator from the old engine and the new flywheel in combination since the alternator magnets are the same size and the engine timing would then be correct, right? (I didn't want to install the old flywheel just to see if it worked because I believe having the timing that far off could potentially cause damage??) Have any of you experienced something similar?
I've asked this question on the B&S support Q&A as well as sent the support techs a message asking the same question. Just thought I'd try here and see if anyone has experience with this.
Thanks in advance!
fergy
I have a Dixon with a locked B&S 28Q777 that I'm replacing with the recommended B&S 33R877-0003, with instructions to reuse the flywheel and alternator from the old engine. The Dixon was given to me by good friends, elderly lady who's husband had drained the oil for an oil change and forgot to add new oil, so it locked up tight next time she tried to mow with it.
The old engine has a 16 amp alternator and the new only a 9 amp. Thus the reuse of the old parts on the new engine. So, I've swapped the alternator and voltage regulator and was putting the old flywheel on when the thought occurred to me to lay both flywheels side by side and compare them. I immediately noticed that the outside magnet that sits on the rim of the flywheel to fire the magneto coil is in a different orientation compared to the flywheel sheer key slot. I mean it is way off, maybe a third to half way around the flywheel compared to the old one. I verified that I'm not insane and laid a screwdriver against it to make sure I was looking at the magnets on each of them and the screwdriver snapped up against it like it should on both.
It seems to me that if I install the old flywheel on the new engine the spark timing would be way off, right?
So, I flip both flywheels over and inspect the alternator magnets and they seem to be identical in size, and in researching this last night I read on the B&S Alternator replacement guide "The 9 and 16 amp regulated systems use flywheels with the large alternator magnets." The old engine is 16 A and new engine is 9 A.
It would seem to me that I could use the 16 amp alternator from the old engine and the new flywheel in combination since the alternator magnets are the same size and the engine timing would then be correct, right? (I didn't want to install the old flywheel just to see if it worked because I believe having the timing that far off could potentially cause damage??) Have any of you experienced something similar?
I've asked this question on the B&S support Q&A as well as sent the support techs a message asking the same question. Just thought I'd try here and see if anyone has experience with this.
Thanks in advance!
fergy
#2
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
How about supplying the type numbers after the model number on the old engine so we can pull the diagrams up ourselves.
#3
NorthBama
NorthBama
The difference would be in the alternator wire winding, if the magnets are the same. I have changed to the yellow connector with matching voltage regulator
#5
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
NO, you can not use that 33 series flywheel on the 28 series engine which is why the key/magnet spacing are intellectually different. You can use the original 9 amp charging system of your 28 series OR you can use the stator and regulator from the 33 series engine with your 28 flywheel and, depending on the inside magnet size of the 28 series flywheel, get either 16 amp or 9 amp. Nine amp will run your electric PTO, charge battery, etc.
Walt Conner
Well I tried to delete this post but couldn't. I reversed the engine designations but the same applies just switch my engine designation.
Walt Conner
Well I tried to delete this post but couldn't. I reversed the engine designations but the same applies just switch my engine designation.
#6
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
From the briggs dealer website is shows the recommended engine is a 31L777-0136 pr 31S977-0006 which doesn't mention replacing the flywheel or stator. the 33R877-0003 is a different crankshaft and flywheel, so the key orientation could be different. Unless you have a very heavy electrical load you should be able to use the 9 amp system that came with the new engine and be fine. The 16 Amp system and regulator is possible but you will need to use the 33 flywheel.
#7
F
fergy59
F
fergy59
That is interesting information that you got off the B&S Dealer website. I did my inquiry with brandnewengines.com and took their recommendation on the engine I bought. I should have joined here first! Thankfully it looks like I can make it work though. I've already swapped the alternator and regulator. I will put the new flywheel back on and I should be in pretty good shape.
Thank you all for your quick responses and valuable input. I really appreciate all of you!
One more thing: Does anyone know the flywheel bolt torque specs for the 33R877-0003?
Thanks,
fergy
Thank you all for your quick responses and valuable input. I really appreciate all of you!
One more thing: Does anyone know the flywheel bolt torque specs for the 33R877-0003?
Thanks,
fergy
#10
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
By the way, what Dixon do you have? I have some new and used Dixon parts left if you are in need of something.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
#11
F
fergy59
Mine is a ztr 4515b I think. It was given to me with the engine locked up from half an oil change.
By the way, how much gap should be between the flywheel and the coil?
F
fergy59
By the way, what Dixon do you have? I have some new and used Dixon parts left if you are in need of something.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
Mine is a ztr 4515b I think. It was given to me with the engine locked up from half an oil change.
By the way, how much gap should be between the flywheel and the coil?
#12
T
Tinkerer200
Most people just use a business card, .010"- .014". I can send you a Service manual covering your engine(s) if you like. Address below put in proper format and remind me what you want, engine(s) model number.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
T
Tinkerer200
\Mine is a ztr 4515b I think. It was given to me with the engine locked up from half an oil change.
By the way, how much gap should be between the flywheel and the coil?
Most people just use a business card, .010"- .014". I can send you a Service manual covering your engine(s) if you like. Address below put in proper format and remind me what you want, engine(s) model number.
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
#13
F
fergy59
F
fergy59
Thanks!
I got under the mower yesterday and man is there a lot going on under there! I removed the bolt from the shaft and the PTO clutch (I guess) came loose but seems to be hanging on a spring and some other apparatus that I'll have to figure out. I anticipate that the upper pulley will be a fun piece to remove too. It doesn't look like they left a big enough hole to remove the engine and "then" remove the pulley. I have the back of the mower up as high as my floor jack will get it which is just high enough to get my head under there and one arm to work with and knock dirt loose to fall in my eyes!
Have any of you had experience with the under side of one of these and have any bits of advice or warnings for me? I'm kind of discovering as I go along in this process. It is a Dixon ZTR 4515 B.
I got under the mower yesterday and man is there a lot going on under there! I removed the bolt from the shaft and the PTO clutch (I guess) came loose but seems to be hanging on a spring and some other apparatus that I'll have to figure out. I anticipate that the upper pulley will be a fun piece to remove too. It doesn't look like they left a big enough hole to remove the engine and "then" remove the pulley. I have the back of the mower up as high as my floor jack will get it which is just high enough to get my head under there and one arm to work with and knock dirt loose to fall in my eyes!
Have any of you had experience with the under side of one of these and have any bits of advice or warnings for me? I'm kind of discovering as I go along in this process. It is a Dixon ZTR 4515 B.
#14
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
Yeah, I am a former Cert. Dixon Service Tech. Fortunately I retired from that before that model came out. I have bought and sold, traded, in a few of them though. That spring hanging down and the other apparatus is the anchor for the PTO to keep the clutch from spinning ripping the wires out. I don't remember for sure but seems like you should be able to get the engine off with pulley in place. I think you are talking about the small pulley. IF it is "grown fast", I try to get a blunt air chisel bit in behind the pulley on the hub and knock it off. Hammer and pc of steel may work. IF that doesn't work, I drill a hole thru the pulley on each side of the hub out far enough away from the hub to get a washer and 5/16" nut on a grade 8 bolt. Drill matching holes in a pc. of 3/8" thick by 1-1/2" wide or so flat steel. Lay that across the end of the crankshaft insert bolts long enough to reach thru the steel pulley and tighten each alternately. Hit that pc. of steel a sharp blow over the crankshaft end.
I have some instructions on adjusting this drive if you want them.
Lots of luck
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
I have some instructions on adjusting this drive if you want them.
Lots of luck
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
#15
F
fergy59
I would like those instructions for sure. Once I get some light under there and can see, there may be a hole. Either way, I have a flywheel puller kit that I believe I can drill the holes in the pulley and probably remove it that way like you said. Thanks so much for sharing your experience!
fergy P.S. the parts diagram shows a big hole in the chassis for the pulley so I'm going to believe it has one.
F
fergy59
Yeah, I am a former Cert. Dixon Service Tech. Fortunately I retired from that before that model came out. I have bought and sold, traded, in a few of them though. That spring hanging down and the other apparatus is the anchor for the PTO to keep the clutch from spinning ripping the wires out. I don't remember for sure but seems like you should be able to get the engine off with pulley in place. I think you are talking about the small pulley. IF it is "grown fast", I try to get a blunt air chisel bit in behind the pulley on the hub and knock it off. Hammer and pc of steel may work. IF that doesn't work, I drill a hole thru the pulley on each side of the hub out far enough away from the hub to get a washer and 5/16" nut on a grade 8 bolt. Drill matching holes in a pc. of 3/8" thick by 1-1/2" wide or so flat steel. Lay that across the end of the crankshaft insert bolts long enough to reach thru the steel pulley and tighten each alternately. Hit that pc. of steel a sharp blow over the crankshaft end.
I have some instructions on adjusting this drive if you want them.
Lots of luck
Walt Conner
wconner5 at frontier dot com
I would like those instructions for sure. Once I get some light under there and can see, there may be a hole. Either way, I have a flywheel puller kit that I believe I can drill the holes in the pulley and probably remove it that way like you said. Thanks so much for sharing your experience!
fergy P.S. the parts diagram shows a big hole in the chassis for the pulley so I'm going to believe it has one.
#16
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Fergy this way is similar to what Walt said.... If you have a air chisel hold the pulley and use the chisel on the shaft..... The vibrations and you pulling on it should break it loose.......
CAUTION put a bolt in the hole so you don't mess up the inner threads............
Works like a charm for me on flywheels and pulleys all the time ~!~!~!
Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!
CAUTION put a bolt in the hole so you don't mess up the inner threads............
Works like a charm for me on flywheels and pulleys all the time ~!~!~!
Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!
#18
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Get it up higher and make sure you have it on some strong axel stands.
More men have died under ZTR's than on them.
The hydrostatic pressure from 400lbs of ZTR hitting your chest will crush internal organs even if there is enough space not to break all your ribs.
A PIA operation but jack- axel stands; jack on bricks raise axel stands; jack on more bricks.
Before you start get the front casters off the ground and some stands under the frame at the front enough to keep the casters off the floor.
ZTR's are balanced very finely on the rear wheels, I can generally put a shoulder strap on hooked to the front and lift it high enough to put some axel stands on the frame outriggers to the casters.
Where people come unstuck is lifting the back high enough to put most of the weight on the front casters then the machine will roll forward, off the jack.
You will find your car jack will work better than the floor jack, well I did anyway .
Like Bou, I find the air chisel works really well.
I ground an impact grade 1/2" socket extension to fit in my air chisel then put a bolt in whatever I am trying to remove, screwed out just enough to take the weight .
A socket on the end of the extension stops it bouncing off ( impact grade socket as well )
For pulleys in that space I use builders wedges ( 3 ) hammered under the sprocket till the sprocket just starts to bend then hit the shaft with the air chisel.
When the wedges come loose tap the pulley back on, some more penetrant, tap the wedges back in and repeat.
And when the new one goes back in , some nickel anti sieze on the shaft , just a thin smear will make this a lot easier in the future.
The shafts on the pulleys are made from a free machining grade of steel to reduce the cost of machining the key slot.
The down side is all free machining steels rust while you watch them.
More men have died under ZTR's than on them.
The hydrostatic pressure from 400lbs of ZTR hitting your chest will crush internal organs even if there is enough space not to break all your ribs.
A PIA operation but jack- axel stands; jack on bricks raise axel stands; jack on more bricks.
Before you start get the front casters off the ground and some stands under the frame at the front enough to keep the casters off the floor.
ZTR's are balanced very finely on the rear wheels, I can generally put a shoulder strap on hooked to the front and lift it high enough to put some axel stands on the frame outriggers to the casters.
Where people come unstuck is lifting the back high enough to put most of the weight on the front casters then the machine will roll forward, off the jack.
You will find your car jack will work better than the floor jack, well I did anyway .
Like Bou, I find the air chisel works really well.
I ground an impact grade 1/2" socket extension to fit in my air chisel then put a bolt in whatever I am trying to remove, screwed out just enough to take the weight .
A socket on the end of the extension stops it bouncing off ( impact grade socket as well )
For pulleys in that space I use builders wedges ( 3 ) hammered under the sprocket till the sprocket just starts to bend then hit the shaft with the air chisel.
When the wedges come loose tap the pulley back on, some more penetrant, tap the wedges back in and repeat.
And when the new one goes back in , some nickel anti sieze on the shaft , just a thin smear will make this a lot easier in the future.
The shafts on the pulleys are made from a free machining grade of steel to reduce the cost of machining the key slot.
The down side is all free machining steels rust while you watch them.
#19
F
fergy59
F
fergy59
I have it on jack stands on the front corners, and on my floor jack in the back. It is a higher than normal floor jack, and an old one that has a wide stance and lots of beef. I do appreciate the advice though because Lord knows, I've watched enough AFV to know there are many who need the extra safety advice!
I got the four bolts out holding the engine down and was able to shift the engine forward just enough to get the belt off the upper pulley and sure enough there was a large hole to not have to worry about removing the pulley before removing the engine. Took the engine to the bench and drained the oil and turned it on the end to work on the pulley and it just slid right off without any serious resistance! So now I just need to get the chassis cleaned up and the new engine is ready to put in. Done for today.
I got the four bolts out holding the engine down and was able to shift the engine forward just enough to get the belt off the upper pulley and sure enough there was a large hole to not have to worry about removing the pulley before removing the engine. Took the engine to the bench and drained the oil and turned it on the end to work on the pulley and it just slid right off without any serious resistance! So now I just need to get the chassis cleaned up and the new engine is ready to put in. Done for today.
#20
F
fergy59
F
fergy59
OK, new engine is installed and everything hooked up. Had to cut and splice the power/ground wire to the fuel pump? as the old wiring had them swapped in the connector. Oh, and I did find the spark plug cracked in half, might have done that myself when I removed it to check for spark when it wouldn't start, before I discovered the backwards wiring on the fuel pump. I installed the old spark plug from the old engine for now.
Anyway it started right up after the wires were right and it runs nice for 5-10 seconds and sputters to a stop almost like it is running out of fuel. It will start right back up in usually two tries and run again for 5-10 seconds before shutting down.
It is full of oil, up to the full mark on the stick.
It came with a new air filter and fuel filter already installed on the fuel line. Maybe I should replace all the fuel line up to the new stuff that came installed on the engine? Other than that, any suggestions? I am at a loss...
Anyway it started right up after the wires were right and it runs nice for 5-10 seconds and sputters to a stop almost like it is running out of fuel. It will start right back up in usually two tries and run again for 5-10 seconds before shutting down.
It is full of oil, up to the full mark on the stick.
It came with a new air filter and fuel filter already installed on the fuel line. Maybe I should replace all the fuel line up to the new stuff that came installed on the engine? Other than that, any suggestions? I am at a loss...
#21
T
Tinkerer200
T
Tinkerer200
Probably has a solenoid on the bottom of the carb idoes it click when you turn the key to on? IF has the solenoid it needs 12V to it when switch is on.
Walt Conner
Walt Conner
#22
F
fergy59
F
fergy59
Problem solved! When I replaced the fuel line and pulled the old fuel line off the bottom of the gas tank, only a little bit of fuel Spilled Out of the fitting. I ran a small piece of wire through the hole and suddenly the gas gushed all over the place. So apparently the little nipple had a clog. I will clean the tank once I figure out how to remove it but for now I know what to watch for. Mower is running like it should. I ran it for several minutes at different speeds only hitting full throttle momentarily after starting and on occasion and haven't run it under a load yet other than to move a few inches forward and backward and engaged the pto once to see it work. I'm ready to test it on grass!
#23
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
in order for fuel to get out, air has to get into the tank.
Because it is after the mower deck that air will be dusty.
Add to that the odd blade of grass ( which goes translucent in fuel but does not break down ) and you the receipe for a nice fuel plug.
Generally it will manifest itself as running fine for a set period of time , say 1 hour then starving and refusing to run till the next day when it dutifully runs for around the same time then goes into an encore performance.
A quick shot of compressed air up the fuel line every now & then should see you through the season ( fuel cap off naturally ) when you can pull the tank & clean it properly.
We had a spate of 2000 series Cubs doing this and all of them had a moulding fin inside the tank outlet a few minutes with a scalpel and they were as right as rain and some of these had very long service records for random stopping.
Way way back we had a poster who photographed what came out of hi tank, pliers , a glove, some bailing wire, a couple of old cap vents , sticks & stones really amazing.
Because it is after the mower deck that air will be dusty.
Add to that the odd blade of grass ( which goes translucent in fuel but does not break down ) and you the receipe for a nice fuel plug.
Generally it will manifest itself as running fine for a set period of time , say 1 hour then starving and refusing to run till the next day when it dutifully runs for around the same time then goes into an encore performance.
A quick shot of compressed air up the fuel line every now & then should see you through the season ( fuel cap off naturally ) when you can pull the tank & clean it properly.
We had a spate of 2000 series Cubs doing this and all of them had a moulding fin inside the tank outlet a few minutes with a scalpel and they were as right as rain and some of these had very long service records for random stopping.
Way way back we had a poster who photographed what came out of hi tank, pliers , a glove, some bailing wire, a couple of old cap vents , sticks & stones really amazing.
#25
HawkeyeChuck
HawkeyeChuck
I had a similar opportunity to replace an engine on my Dixon. I found my engine replacement - 31S977-0016 on Outdoor Power Direct. They had a good customer service rep that helped me with the electrical system. I got my engine in one day. Hats off to them!
Briggs and Stratton 31S977-0006-G1 17.5HP Intek Engine - https://goo.gl/BTXbTQ
Briggs and Stratton 31S977-0006-G1 17.5HP Intek Engine - https://goo.gl/BTXbTQ
#26
F
fergy59
My new engine looks identical to yours except for the sticker. What is the difference in the Professional and the Intek? (other than price)
F
fergy59
I had a similar opportunity to replace an engine on my Dixon. I found my engine replacement - 31S977-0016 on Outdoor Power Direct. They had a good customer service rep that helped me with the electrical system. I got my engine in one day. Hats off to them!
Briggs and Stratton 31S977-0006-G1 17.5HP Intek Engine - https://goo.gl/BTXbTQ
My new engine looks identical to yours except for the sticker. What is the difference in the Professional and the Intek? (other than price)