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Red wire super hot!

#1

C

cubcadet79

Hello,

Just getting the mower dusted off today. I ran into a problem. I have a picture below.

So, I turned the key a few times and it lacked oomph.

A little background: When I turn and hold the key it usually (for the last 3 years) fires, pauses like it gets stuck, then right that instant I lift and then push down the throttle, then the firing resumes and then it starts.

So I tried this way of starting it, but there wasn't enough oomph.

I started smelling a little burning, especially as I inspected the battery (I suspected the battery was low since it's 2 years old and was left in place over the winter).

I touched the red positive cable and it was very hot. It was hot enough to melt some plastic around a bolt adjoined to the red wire. I don't know what the bolt is for.

Anyway here is the picture, it will help explain.
The green circle is where if you touched the wire you could tell how hot it was.
The red circle is the bolt that got so hot it melted the plastic that it was in.
The blue circles are the bolts that are holding the thing that the red circle bolt was in before it got super hot.
The white circle is the obviously corroded terminal with a possible crimp in the red cable.

1586022546237.png

One other funny thing that happened was i touched the red circle bolt to the frame and the engine wanted to fire.

So, questions are:
What caused this melting problem? The dirty terminal? Crimp?
Should that red wire EVER be hot like that?
Do I need to replace some kind of unit that the blue circle bolts are holding that seems to be where the red circle bolt was situated before it melted out?
Any advice on the starting issue that is 3 years old now so i don't have to jigger it to get it started?

THANK YOU!!!


#2

R

Rivets

The corrosion is an obvious problem, as it is offering a high amount of resistance which will lead to overheating. I would start by cleaning all those connections and make sure no corrosion is left behind. After you finish cleaning I recommend that you get a tube of di-electric grease and make sure all charts of the connections gets good coat. Post back if you have more problems.


#3

I

ILENGINE

Sounds like the engine is not turning over and the key has been held to the point that is melted the plastic housing of the starter solenoid. The two bolts in blue are most likely the bolts that mount the solenoid to the frame. I would start by making sure you can turn the engine over by hand a few revolutions to confirm that it isn't seized or hydrolocked with gas. May need to remove the spark plug to assist turning over.


#4

C

cubcadet79

cubcadet79 said:
Hello,

Just getting the mower dusted off today. I ran into a problem. I have a picture below.

So, I turned the key a few times and it lacked oomph.

A little background: When I turn and hold the key it usually (for the last 3 years) fires, pauses like it gets stuck, then right that instant I lift and then push down the throttle, then the firing resumes and then it starts.

So I tried this way of starting it, but there wasn't enough oomph.

I started smelling a little burning, especially as I inspected the battery (I suspected the battery was low since it's 2 years old and was left in place over the winter).

I touched the red positive cable and it was very hot. It was hot enough to melt some plastic around a bolt adjoined to the red wire. I don't know what the bolt is for.

Anyway here is the picture, it will help explain.
The green circle is where if you touched the wire you could tell how hot it was.
The red circle is the bolt that got so hot it melted the plastic that it was in.
The blue circles are the bolts that are holding the thing that the red circle bolt was in before it got super hot.
The white circle is the obviously corroded terminal with a possible crimp in the red cable.

View attachment 51345

One other funny thing that happened was i touched the red circle bolt to the frame and the engine wanted to fire.

So, questions are:
What caused this melting problem? The dirty terminal? Crimp?
Should that red wire EVER be hot like that?
Do I need to replace some kind of unit that the blue circle bolts are holding that seems to be where the red circle bolt was situated before it melted out?
Any advice on the starting issue that is 3 years old now so i don't have to jigger it to get it started?

THANK YOU!!!
Click to expand...

I have the battery cleaned. I got the di-electric grease as well. Thank you.

Also, I have removed the solenoid that had a bolt melt out of it. I have a new one on order.

I'm concerned about the fraying on the wire. Do I need to clip off the circle and get a new one?

1586837977283.png


#5

B

bertsmobile1

If it was in my shop. I would replace both battery wires
I havve seen way to many on mowers that sit outside or just under an awning where the battery leads are corroded almost completely through 1/2 way between each end due to water getting sucked in .
Whe the replacements get fitted, I let them sit out in the sun all day so the wire is hot ( & hopefully dry ) then seal each end with liquid electrical tape
When the cables age bolted to the battery or frame , more liquid electrical tape .
No water = no corrosion = happy electrical system .
This of course just prevents electrical problems & won't be of any use if your engine is hydro locked or the ACR is not functions & putting way too heavy a load on the starter.
Every company recommends no more than 30 sec of continious cranking with a 2 minute wait between each attempt for everything to cool down.


#6

StarTech

StarTech

Without the equipment model and the engine's model and type (spec) numbers it is only a guessing game but there are a few common things to mention. Also from the image it does kinda look like a Cub Cadet but that is just a guess.

As said first make sure the engine's ACR (automatic compression release) is working unless the engine has hydraulic lifters which does this. There should be no hard cranking. And yes the piece circled in Red was part of the starter solenoid which severely overheated and melted. This also can be cause cranking too long or by a partially shorted starter.

The image in post #4 does shows a cable that needs either repairing or replacement. If your mower is a MTD this cable and the battery ground return cable are probably copper clad aluminum and 8 Ga. It is undersized even if it solid stranded copper. It needs to be 6 Ga copper cable with well crimped terminals. Since most DIYers don't have the proper crimpers it is recommended that purchase already made replacement cables. I had to replace a lot of half done crimped cable terminals. Most cable lug terminals require a hydraulic crimper to properly crimp them.

Also your starter should be checked for mechanical and electrical problems like bad bushings and partially shorted armature windings.


#7

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Part of my annual maint on mowers is to clheck battery connections and clean as needed and then spray with Permatex 80370 battery protector. I tried the liquid electrical tape thing once. Worked well till i tried to change the battery. Too much to aggravation to clean it off.


#8

StarTech

StarTech

Hammermechanicman said:
Part of my annual maint on mowers is to check battery connections and clean as needed and then spray with Permatex 80370 battery protector. I tried the liquid electrical tape thing once. Worked well till i tried to change the battery. Too much to aggravation to clean it off.
Click to expand...
That why I prefer cable lugs, a conductive antioxidant, and heat shrink. Doesn't 100% prevent corroding but does help prevent battery acid getting wicked into the cable.


#9

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

It does amuse me when i get older equipment in with electrical work by, shall we say, uninformed novices. Or the utube vids of some guy who is self taught acting like an expert showing how to crimp connectors wrong.


#10

StarTech

StarTech

Yes I don't even bother to watch those vids. My crimper can crimp so tight that is actually fuses all the strand and cable as on piece but that isn't how the crimp should be done either.


#11

B

bertsmobile1

Hammermechanicman said:
Part of my annual maint on mowers is to clheck battery connections and clean as needed and then spray with Permatex 80370 battery protector. I tried the liquid electrical tape thing once. Worked well till i tried to change the battery. Too much to aggravation to clean it off.
Click to expand...
I use longish bolts to connect the battery terminals with wing nuts
When you pait the terminal, you only need to cover the bit where the nut, lug & terminal are all in contact because to get a galvanic cell you need the metals to be connected and an electroylte on the edge .
I do not cover the end of the bolt so there is somewhere for jumper leads to make contact.


#12

B

bertsmobile1

StarTech said:
Yes I don't even bother to watch those vids. My crimper can crimp so tight that is actually fuses all the strand and cable as on piece but that isn't how the crimp should be done either.
Click to expand...
FWIW I use a nut splitter with the cutting edge ground round.
Works a lot better than the $ 150 dedicated battery terminal crimper.
And yes I like then really tight as well
The trouble is the strand size & lay of the actual wires.

What I have noticed is some of the Chinese made AYP copies fitted with the Chinese Kohler Courage engines have battery cables that are copper plated steel wires.
Anything to make them cheaper I suppose.


#13

StarTech

StarTech

Here my crimper came from Harbor Freight which currently without coupon 60 usd. I have in the last few made enough cables to pay for it.


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

1586906530353.jpg
Got this tiller in a few days ago for carb work. Cust also said problem with the starter. When you turn the key to start the starter drags slow and the throttle cable starts smoking. The jankey ground connection doesn't ground to the engine and the starter current is going through the throttle cable. Just one more thing to fix.


#15

StarTech

StarTech

Lost of ground between the engine and frame on that TB Horse.


#16

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Yup. More wiring by an uninformed novice i get to fix.


#17

C

cubcadet79

Thanks for all the advice. I'm rapidly out of my depth but will push on, as I can only imagine how backed up the local lawnmower shop is currently.

So here is a recap of the starting issue, which seems to have likely caused the burnt solenoid.

On cold start it would never fire up, no matter how long you turned the key. I didn't bother with trying that much. I don't see much success with any motors that way.

So I lift the choke. THAT doesn't work either if I just keep the key cranked.

But when I crank the key with the choke up and within 2-3 seconds, push the choke down, it is more successful than anything. In fact I think I have to start like this even warm most times.

The SOUND it makes during this start up is the following: it makes the first click, something metallic kind of jumps off to start the crank and then instantly gets slowed down to a total halt like it got jammed. It's at that point that if I push the choke down it will resume the crank and start up.

So is that likely a starter issue? Or ACR?

This Cub Cadet mower has definitely seen a decent share of rainy summer nights. It is model number 17AI2ACP056 893-999.

Thanks all!!!


#18

C

cubcadet79

So I replaced the solenoid, brushed the terminals, applied some grease and it started right up. The hesitation in the turning over is still there. I will have that looked at now that it can start. The red wire does not get so hot anymore. Thanks again.


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