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Rattling noise when rotating flywheel

#1

J

JimP2014


So here's a video I made today so the background story is Friday I started noticing white smoke coming out of the muffler took off the air filter and there was white smoke coming out of that I was thinking it's probably a head gasket so I took off the cylinder head and removed the spark plug and then I noticed what I was rotating the flywheel there's this weird rattling noise I never heard it before. So I did search on what this could be meaning when you rotate the flywheel Piston makes this rattling noise or the engine itself makes a rattling noise and there's like eight different things could be but I'm hoping with the video someone who's had experience looking at something like this before and they're able to say I know exactly what that is if that's possible that would be fantastic otherwise since I already have to replace the head gasket I will do that but beyond that is a flywheel key damaged are there some magnets underneath the flywheel that came loose like there's all kinds of things and I just wonder if anyone can just tell from hearing this what I need to look at size of course replacing the head gasket since I already was planning on doing that.

It is a Sears Craftsman lt 2000 , 19.5 horsepower OHV engine I can provide more specifications I just thought that it's something that could happen to many different models and it would all produce that same kind of rattling noise.

Thanks,
Jim


#2

J

JimP2014


So here's a video I made today so the background story is Friday I started noticing white smoke coming out of the muffler took off the air filter and there was white smoke coming out of that I was thinking it's probably a head gasket so I took off the cylinder head and removed the spark plug and then I noticed what I was rotating the flywheel there's this weird rattling noise I never heard it before. So I did search on what this could be meaning when you rotate the flywheel Piston makes this rattling noise or the engine itself makes a rattling noise and there's like eight different things could be but I'm hoping with the video someone who's had experience looking at something like this before and they're able to say I know exactly what that is if that's possible that would be fantastic otherwise since I already have to replace the head gasket I will do that but beyond that is a flywheel key damaged are there some magnets underneath the flywheel that came loose like there's all kinds of things and I just wonder if anyone can just tell from hearing this what I need to look at size of course replacing the head gasket since I already was planning on doing that.

It is a Sears Craftsman lt 2000 , 19.5 horsepower OHV engine I can provide more specifications I just thought that it's something that could happen to many different models and it would all produce that same kind of rattling noise.

Thanks,
Jim
If you have a list of eight things or 10 things that it could be I have that list already thanks on that but I'm interested in knowing exactly what it is so if you don't know that I already got the general list or even if you can narrow it down to two things that would be fantastic truly

Jim


#3

J

JimP2014


So here's a video I made today so the background story is Friday I started noticing white smoke coming out of the muffler took off the air filter and there was white smoke coming out of that I was thinking it's probably a head gasket so I took off the cylinder head and removed the spark plug and then I noticed what I was rotating the flywheel there's this weird rattling noise I never heard it before. So I did search on what this could be meaning when you rotate the flywheel Piston makes this rattling noise or the engine itself makes a rattling noise and there's like eight different things could be but I'm hoping with the video someone who's had experience looking at something like this before and they're able to say I know exactly what that is if that's possible that would be fantastic otherwise since I already have to replace the head gasket I will do that but beyond that is a flywheel key damaged are there some magnets underneath the flywheel that came loose like there's all kinds of things and I just wonder if anyone can just tell from hearing this what I need to look at size of course replacing the head gasket since I already was planning on doing that.

It is a Sears Craftsman lt 2000 , 19.5 horsepower OHV engine I can provide more specifications I just thought that it's something that could happen to many different models and it would all produce that same kind of rattling noise.

Thanks,
Jim
I changed my mind it's not a rattling noise it's more like a wild boar but it's real unfortunately.


#4

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

put some oil in the cylinder and see if it goes away.


#5

J

JimP2014

put some oil in the cylinder and see if it goes away.
Hello thank you very much I will try that tomorrow.

Jim


#6

J

JimP2014

Hello thank you very much I will try that tomorrow.

Jim
So I tried what you said and nothing changed and so I tried to kind of get on the ground and make a long story short something to do with the drive shaft the pulley + the mower deck belt so I just slightly unhook the belt so to speak + the noise went away so there's something going on and I have to get on the ground but it was some sort of rattling noise so when things dry up but that's good to know I had no idea what was going on and I did your test like I said and the cylinder looks really clean out cracks or scores or whatever in it so maybe just the head gasket and get those bolts to 18.3 foot pounds pretty sure that's the spec.

Jim


#7

J

JimP2014

So I put the belt back on over the belt guide the one for way up front the drive shaft mower deck pulley and the noise goes away completely while rotating the flywheel. It should be the case where when everything is correctly configured there's a noise when you remove the belt over that guide there's no noise and you can go back and forth noise no noise noise no noise noise but not this.


#8

J

JimP2014

I just wanted to give an update on that rattling noise so it turns out the front left belt guide is in close contact with the pulley for the mower deck and that pulley comes off the drive shaft so I don't know if it's supposed to make contact if somehow u-shaped belt guide was bent but that definitely is the source of the rattling noise so it's where you have the cylinder head off the spark plug out and you're rotating the flywheel and you hear a rattling noise. I'm going to have to check the other side and see how close the belt guide is to the large pulley on the drive shaft but I'm guessing they shouldn't be touching neither of them?

Jim


#9

D

Douglas Lee

Sounds like a scrape to me?
Douglas Lee
*


#10

J

JimP2014

Sounds like a scrape to me?
Douglas Lee
*
Yeah now that I know what it is and I'm reading what you're saying that's the noise it's a scraping noise it's not that easy to bend that belt guide back away from the pulley I just don't want to break anything with heavier equipment let's say.


#11

J

JimP2014

The noise it was rattling that had to do with a belt guide that has been fixed.


So I took apart the cylinder head portion of the engine cleaned everything put in a new head gasket set the gap for the intake at 0.004 and for the exhaust 0.006.

I basically put the rest of the engine the top part of the engine together again check the oil.

Had difficulty starting at each time I had charge the battery back up so finally I got it going this time + first of all it runs at very high speed and it's running real erratically and it's making a lot of popping noise and then I shut it down.

Is this typical of a flywheel key ruined I did not take the flywheel off but maybe I need to take the flywheel off maybe something is wrong with the Gap for the intake or the exhaust valve or anything else anybody else can think of is to why this is going on I know it's a zoomed in video I wasn't planning on doing that but that's what happened.

Thanks,
Jim


#12

J

JimP2014

So the latest is it runs so erratically as soon as you start the engine it seems like after ruling out the flywheel key it has to be a carburetor issue Or I messed up with the valve clearances but I'm including a picture of the flywheel and the key and based on what I see I'm going to say I'm 90% positive the flywheel key is okay but if somehow it's destroyed below what you can't see then it could be the flywheel key.

Jim

Attachments





#13

B

bentrim

A sheared flywheel key will change the ignition timing. It will not change the speed of the engine, if anything will make it no start, pop back thru the carburetor, or run very labored.
You had the carburetor off to remove the head, be sure the linkage is free and set in the right holes. Be sure the governor spring is hooked correctly and not stretched when in the slow position. You may also have to adjust the governor per the service manual.
FYI the choke if integrated with the throttle should be applied when the controol is pushed to the extrme position. If not that will make it hard to start. Also be aware those engines have a problem with the compression release. It is evident when the valves have too much clearance or if the valve are adjusted properly the engine will pause or stop when coming up on compression. If you suspect that may be the problem take the valve cover off and watch the lower valve while turning the engine over you should see a small movement and of course the full movement of the valves opening and closing. The compression release is part of the camshaft.


#14

J

JimP2014

A sheared flywheel key will change the ignition timing. It will not change the speed of the engine, if anything will make it no start, pop back thru the carburetor, or run very labored.
You had the carburetor off to remove the head, be sure the linkage is free and set in the right holes. Be sure the governor spring is hooked correctly and not stretched when in the slow position. You may also have to adjust the governor per the service manual.
FYI the choke if integrated with the throttle should be applied when the controol is pushed to the extrme position. If not that will make it hard to start. Also be aware those engines have a problem with the compression release. It is evident when the valves have too much clearance or if the valve are adjusted properly the engine will pause or stop when coming up on compression. If you suspect that may be the problem take the valve cover off and watch the lower valve while turning the engine over you should see a small movement and of course the full movement of the valves opening and closing. The compression release is part of the camshaft.
Wow good points. I am on autopilot with this thing and not paying attention - Thanks!

"lower valve while turning the engine over you should see a small movement " <-- will check that out too.

One thing I failed to mention here was one of those head bolts ended up with a rounded hex head. So that I have coming today. Lower left bolt when facing engine. I have to see if that was causing a problem too. I was wondering if that bolt was slightly looser than the others, it was difficult to get it to 18.3 ft lbs. cuz it kept spinning with the torque wrench up near 16 I think.

I can say after doing this a million times it seems, I only remove two bolts from the intake manifold and move the entire carb assembly away from the engine. So I do not mess with those linkages at all. But will inspect them for sure.

Jim


#15

J

JimP2014

Wow good points. I am on autopilot with this thing and not paying attention - Thanks!

"lower valve while turning the engine over you should see a small movement " <-- will check that out too.

One thing I failed to mention here was one of those head bolts ended up with a rounded hex head. So that I have coming today. Lower left bolt when facing engine. I have to see if that was causing a problem too. I was wondering if that bolt was slightly looser than the others, it was difficult to get it to 18.3 ft lbs. cuz it kept spinning with the torque wrench up near 16 I think.

I can say after doing this a million times it seems, I only remove two bolts from the intake manifold and move the entire carb assembly away from the engine. So I do not mess with those linkages at all. But will inspect them for sure.

Jim
So I checked all the linkages + they seem fine I took off the valve cover gasket the exhaust valve specifically that hex nut and that torx screw they were very loose so that means the exhaust valve was always open I guess and maybe that explains why the engine went into this high Rev situation but I tightened it down all correctly I got 0.007 in for the valve clearance everything's all tightened down but one thing I DId notice is that one portion during the rotation of the flywheel that rocker arm is shakes back and forth and I'm trying to upload a video but something happened where I can't but is that typical where if the rocker arm isn't in a situation where it's under tension during one specific part of the flywheel rotation it can be kind of loose even though nothing's falling off on either side? I'm going to try and upload the video again so you can see exactly what I mean

Thanks,
Jim


#16

J

JimP2014


This is the video of that rocker arm shaking here is the video of the rocker arm shaking I'm not sure if when it's not under tension it should shake this violently?


#17

B

bentrim

From the video it appears you have excessive clearence betweenn the valve stem and rocker arm. If the valves are adjusted properly there should be just a small movement of the rockers, the feeler gauge should eliminate any play.
By what I am referring to if you turn the engine over slowly the intake valve (bottom) as the piston is coming up on compression will lose all clearance and just open the valve slightly for a brief period this release just enough compression to allow the electric starter to spin the engine or on a rope start to pull the rope easily without pulling the whole mwer backwards.
If there is no small lift seen The adjustment is not right, but more than likely the compression release on the cam has failed, which is common for these engines


#18

J

JimP2014

From the video it appears you have excessive clearence betweenn the valve stem and rocker arm. If the valves are adjusted properly there should be just a small movement of the rockers, the feeler gauge should eliminate any play.
By what I am referring to if you turn the engine over slowly the intake valve (bottom) as the piston is coming up on compression will lose all clearance and just open the valve slightly for a brief period this release just enough compression to allow the electric starter to spin the engine or on a rope start to pull the rope easily without pulling the whole mwer backwards.
If there is no small lift seen The adjustment is not right, but more than likely the compression release on the cam has failed, which is common for these engines
Bentrim I do know what you speak, and I was wondering that. A few years ago I watched a video by FNGuitar player ( something like that ) and he called it a bump.

I was trying to figure this out earlier. I had no conclusion either way. I am taking your instructions "outside" I am not getting it right now but I will.

Thanks,
Jim


#19

J

JimP2014

I will make a video of this bump or non bump, I am leaning more towards no bump ( bad ) but I do not know for sure.


#20

J

JimP2014

I will make a video of this bump or non bump, I am leaning more towards no bump ( bad ) but I do not know for sure.
One thing I forgot to ask am I focusing the video on where those springs are or on the other side where those push rods are?

Thanks,


#21

B

bentrim

The intake valve will lose clearance and the valve will open slightly. So it doesn't matter where your main focus is on. If you do focus on the push rod side it will move first until the clearance of the valve setting is gone then the rocker will get tight and move the valve.
Hope that is what you did not u8nderstand.


#22

J

JimP2014

The intake valve will lose clearance and the valve will open slightly. So it doesn't matter where your main focus is on. If you do focus on the push rod side it will move first until the clearance of the valve setting is gone then the rocker will get tight and move the valve.
Hope that is what you did not u8nderstand.
Thank you for the reply dark here now but tomorrow morning I can get going on that flywheel is torqued down to I think 90 90 foot pounds and it's entirely possible because that rocker arm was extremely loose then when I started the engine it was because of that and not so much because of that bump that might be missing like you're saying I don't know but tomorrow morning but thanks for the additional information.

Jim


#23

J

JimP2014

Thank you for the reply dark here now but tomorrow morning I can get going on that flywheel is torqued down to I think 90 90 foot pounds and it's entirely possible because that rocker arm was extremely loose then when I started the engine it was because of that and not so much because of that bump that might be missing like you're saying I don't know but tomorrow morning but thanks for the additional information.

Jim
But the one thing that I really should mention because to figure something out you have to know all the background or the problem what was going on is it it was smoking like white smoke coming out of the muffler area and then when I shut down the engine there would be smoke coming out of the intake white smoke so and I thought I was losing power but I'm not positive on that but that's why I got the whole thing apart.

Jim


#24

sgkent

sgkent

in for a penny in for a pound


#25

J

JimP2014


So I think this video shows that little bump and that would prove the compression mechanism is working.

The video was upside down the intake valve is really on the bottom.


#26

B

bentrim

But the one thing that I really should mention because to figure something out you have to know all the background or the problem what was going on is it it was smoking like white smoke coming out of the muffler area and then when I shut down the engine there would be smoke coming out of the intake white smoke so and I thought I was losing power but I'm not positive on that but that's why I got the whole thing apart.

Jim
White/blue smoke will be produced by oil. If you inspect the gasket especially the area that borders the push rod cavity you should see a place where it is "blown out" This allows compression into the crankcase.Since the breather cannot handle the extra blow by it forces oil into the tube that connects the breather to the air inlet housing under the air filter. If you look closely at the inlet housing and the carburetor bore you should see an oil residue. If you had removed the hose from the inlet it would have had heavy blowby and possibliy even oil from it. Yes the distance between the head bolts makes it a common problem on the Briggs engines. Briggs is supposed to have released new head bolts and increased the torque to 250 inch pounds, see attachment.
FYI if the 1st two numbers on the valver are 28 - 31 - 33 flywheel torque is 100 pound feet

Attachments


  • Head Bolt Torque APSI87_-_LO.pdf
    2.1 MB · Views: 4


#27

J

JimP2014


So this is the engine running there was major smoke and it was most likely coming from when I took the valve cover gasket off so I ran it on say idle for about 10 minutes it seems to be okay but this is the part that I just can't predict what'll happen when the machines actually in use + it's just frustrating when someone says how old is that thing and then the implication is get another one well I'm of the opinion you should be able to identify the problem and just don't say well it's old or some other BS there has to be a reason so I don't know after this. But I definitely will read the post above that I really can't see right now.

Jim


#28

J

JimP2014

White/blue smoke will be produced by oil. If you inspect the gasket especially the area that borders the push rod cavity you should see a place where it is "blown out" This allows compression into the crankcase.Since the breather cannot handle the extra blow by it forces oil into the tube that connects the breather to the air inlet housing under the air filter. If you look closely at the inlet housing and the carburetor bore you should see an oil residue. If you had removed the hose from the inlet it would have had heavy blowby and possibliy even oil from it. Yes the distance between the head bolts makes it a common problem on the Briggs engines. Briggs is supposed to have released new head bolts and increased the torque to 250 inch pounds, see attachment.
FYI if the 1st two numbers on the valver are 28 - 31 - 33 flywheel torque is 100 pound feet
Briggs & Stratton recently changed to a new design cylinder head bolt for model 210000, 310000, and 330000 OHV engines. The new bolts require a higher torque during installation. At the same time, we have modified the bolt tightening sequence to reduce chances of head warpage at the higher torque settings. To prevent confusion, use only the new tightening sequence and new torque value when servicing both older and newer designs, including the model 280000 OHV. The following procedure will replace what is currently shown in repair manual 276781 Single Cylinder OHV Air-Cooled Engines. 1. Ensure cylinder and head mating surfaces are clean and dry. 2. Using a new head gasket, install the cylinder head on the cylinder and start the screws by hand. 3. Step-torque the screws in the sequence shown below until the final torque is achieved. Final torque is 250 lbin (28.2 Nm).

OK so Therefore, 250 inch-pounds is equal to 20.83 foot-pounds.

And I was at 100 ft. lbs with my torque wrench this is good.

That 20.83 foot lbs exceeds current torque wrench but interesting - thanks! I read previously it was 18.3 ft. lbs. I wonder if the change was prompted by consumers constantly blowing head gaskets?

And I just bought 2 of these and currently using one of them:

Briggs and Stratton Genuine 592244 ( ~$8/ea. )Screw Replaces 94565 93211 691651 691651 <--- using the 592244 in lower left position when facing valve cover.​


Thanks BenTrim,
Jim
P.S. "White/blue smoke will be produced by oil. If you inspect the gasket especially the area that borders the push rod cavity you should see a place where it is "blown out" This allows compression into the crankcase.Since the breather cannot handle the extra blow by it forces oil into the tube that connects the breather to the air inlet housing under the air filter. If you look closely at the inlet housing and the carburetor bore you should see an oil residue. If you had removed the hose from the inlet it would have had heavy blowby and possibliy even oil from it." - I will have to re-read this, I don't get it right now.


#29

J

JimP2014

Briggs & Stratton recently changed to a new design cylinder head bolt for model 210000, 310000, and 330000 OHV engines. The new bolts require a higher torque during installation. At the same time, we have modified the bolt tightening sequence to reduce chances of head warpage at the higher torque settings. To prevent confusion, use only the new tightening sequence and new torque value when servicing both older and newer designs, including the model 280000 OHV. The following procedure will replace what is currently shown in repair manual 276781 Single Cylinder OHV Air-Cooled Engines. 1. Ensure cylinder and head mating surfaces are clean and dry. 2. Using a new head gasket, install the cylinder head on the cylinder and start the screws by hand. 3. Step-torque the screws in the sequence shown below until the final torque is achieved. Final torque is 250 lbin (28.2 Nm).

OK so Therefore, 250 inch-pounds is equal to 20.83 foot-pounds.

And I was at 100 ft. lbs with my torque wrench this is good.

That 20.83 foot lbs exceeds current torque wrench but interesting - thanks! I read previously it was 18.3 ft. lbs. I wonder if the change was prompted by consumers constantly blowing head gaskets?

And I just bought 2 of these and currently using one of them:

Briggs and Stratton Genuine 592244 ( ~$8/ea. )Screw Replaces 94565 93211 691651 691651 <--- using the 592244 in lower left position when facing valve cover.​


Thanks BenTrim,
Jim
P.S. "White/blue smoke will be produced by oil. If you inspect the gasket especially the area that borders the push rod cavity you should see a place where it is "blown out" This allows compression into the crankcase.Since the breather cannot handle the extra blow by it forces oil into the tube that connects the breather to the air inlet housing under the air filter. If you look closely at the inlet housing and the carburetor bore you should see an oil residue. If you had removed the hose from the inlet it would have had heavy blowby and possibliy even oil from it." - I will have to re-read this, I don't get it right now.
I just inspected around the breather tube and the fuel filter and going back towards where the steering wheel is and I noticed dirt particles that had oil on them. I am confused as to what this means I am to do next. This is from before, meaning I am not sure if I fixed this in the short 10 minute test I did, but I cleaned all that stuff off. But if it happens again what does that mean?

Thanks,
Jim


#30

J

JimP2014

I was able to install a new head gasket on this 19.5 horsepower Briggs& Stratton OHV engine I ran it a couple times and someone mentioned about checking the torque on the head bolts after running it for a little while and I did do that + below is something that I had read which I never knew but the question is so at this point I don't see any literature where it says you should check the cylinder head bolts every couple weeks every couple months.

I didn't know it at the time but I think when the white smoke started coming out of the intake that maybe the head gasket wasn't blown maybe the head bolts were just loose and I had no idea so I replaced the head gasket anyways that's all in the past but going forward how often would someone check the head bolts to see if anything came loose and is that a typical kind of problem they just work themselves out during usage of the riding lawn mower.

Something I just read
  1. 5. Re-Torque After Run-in:
    After the initial run-in or warm-up of the engine, re-check the torque to the manufacturer's specified settings.

    Thanks,
    JIm






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