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Raptor SD deck spring

Jun 22, 2014#1

K

Kremeneon

With past talk about springs and belt tension I present for discussion the factory RSD tension spring and the spring used on many/most other models, x-one, fastrack, etc...

Jun 22, 2014#2

DSepe

Good work!

Jun 22, 2014#3

M

mooch91

Direct replacement with noticeable improvement???

Jun 23, 2014#4

K

Kremeneon

OEM Raptor SD Spring (Hustler 604291)
Alternate spring (Hustler 781302)

The alternate spring is larger wire, and less coils, which increase tension. It also has a much larger wind diameter, which decreases tension. The larger wind also means it makes contact with the deck in one spot at the far anchor from the idler. Raising that anchor a hair (bending) should resolve the contact.

I have not mowed with it, Wet grass. adding any links (I only have 1" chain at the moment, and one link is too loose) reduces tension below what the factory spring provides. With no links, direct drop in, there seems to be a slight increase in tension as measured by belt deflection from the idler to the clutch. I also marked the idler slider and the alternate spring does bring it in 2-3mm more than the factory spring.

Blade engagement/running all seem about the same, wobble might be improved a bit by feel. I need to have someone sit in the seat with blades on so I can observe belt and spring activity.

Jun 23, 2014#5

djdicetn

Kremeneon said:
With past talk about springs and belt tension I present for discussion the factory RSD tension spring and the spring used on many/most other models, x-one, fastrack, etc...

I hope that everyone that is making modifications to the springs on their Raptor RSD's are getting the blessing of Hustler and/or their dealer on these mods!!! IMHO, I would be hesitant to arbitrarily change a tension spring from the OEM on my ZTR because I'm certain that a spring with "too much" tension could potentially be as bad as a spring with "not enough" tension. Too much belt tension could "possibly"cause premature idler pulley bearing failure or even spindle bearing problems......don't you think????

Jun 23, 2014#6

R

RaptorSD

The belt is supposed to dance around when running. I'd be worried about belt wear and spindle bearings with the commercial spring installed anchor to anchor, the difference in tension from stock is not even close.

I maintain that the stock spring is perfectly fine on this mower.

Jun 23, 2014#7

djdicetn

RaptorSD said:
The belt is supposed to dance around when running. I'd be worried about belt wear and spindle bearings with the commercial spring installed anchor to anchor, the difference in tension from stock is not even close.

I maintain that the stock spring is perfectly fine on this mower.

I completely agree....I've noticed a "wobble" in my belt when running since day one. Gotta be "normal". As long as the grass is being cut cleanly and the belt isn't coming off I don't even give it any thought.

Jun 23, 2014#8

K

Kremeneon

RaptorSD said:
The belt is supposed to dance around when running. I'd be worried about belt wear and spindle bearings with the commercial spring installed anchor to anchor, the difference in tension from stock is not even close.

All valid.

On the spring difference though, did you measure it? Appearance on springs can be deceiving. I do intend to measure pull force before trying it for real. I need to build a jig in the woodshop with my fish scale.

Here's a snippet from the FasTrack SD service manual, this is the entirety of its content on deck belt adjustment:

The spindle belt tension remains constant by means of a tension
idler and spring. The spring tension should be such that the
belt does not slip under normal operating load conditions,
assuming the belt is not excessively worn or damaged. As the
belt stretches and wears in, adjustment may become necessary.
To increase belt tension, move the spring chain one (or more)
link(s) at the anchor point on the deck frame.

IMPORTANT: Do not over tension the spring to compensate
for a badly worn belt or pulley.

Spring length after tensioning new belt. Measured from outside of hook to outside of hook with deck set at 3¼" cut height: 8.3"-9.3"

So the instructions are: belt slips, make it tighter, but not too tight. Start at specified tension resulting from 8.3-9.3" end to end on spring.

The issue I'm having is that my center blade slips in thicker stuff. Leaving a trail of half cut yard. The left and right are cutting the same thing perfectly. The center pulley has the least amount of belt contact so it would of course slip first. This slip happens and I don't hear the engine load up at all. I know the Kawa's are good, but not that good. What use (other than for marketing) is a 23, 50, or 1000 HP engine on the back if power delivery is limited to less than what can be generated?

Jun 23, 2014#9

djdicetn

Kremeneon said:
All valid.

On the spring difference though, did you measure it? Appearance on springs can be deceiving. I do intend to measure pull force before trying it for real. I need to build a jig in the woodshop with my fish scale.

Here's a snippet from the FasTrack SD service manual, this is the entirety of its content on deck belt adjustment:

So the instructions are: belt slips, make it tighter, but not too tight. Start at specified tension resulting from 8.3-9.3" end to end on spring.

The issue I'm having is that my center blade slips in thicker stuff. Leaving a trail of half cut yard. The left and right are cutting the same thing perfectly. The center pulley has the least amount of belt contact so it would of course slip first. This slip happens and I don't hear the engine load up at all. I know the Kawa's are good, but not that good. What use (other than for marketing) is a 23, 50, or 1000 HP engine on the back if power delivery is limited to less than what can be generated?

Slippage of the belt on the center pulley has got to be deck design/components. I have the same Kawa engine(691v) on my Gravely(except it's the FX series rather than the FR series) and I don't have that problem(and I cut through 8" windrows before installing my mulch kit). It's definitely not the Kawa engine.

Jun 23, 2014#10

Carscw

Running a spring that is to strong will wear out the bearings on idler pulleys and spindles a lot faster.
As long as the belt does not slip in thick grass then leave it be.

You should be able to see the idler pulley arm moving when the blades are running.

. If the spring is to strong it will not let the idler pulley loosen the belt when under a heavy load.

Jun 23, 2014#11

Carscw

I had a deck that the center pulley would slip. I added I idler pulley
And sold the mower.

Jun 23, 2014#12

R

RaptorSD

Kremeneon said:
The issue I'm having is that my center blade slips in thicker stuff. Leaving a trail of half cut yard. The left and right are cutting the same thing perfectly. The center pulley has the least amount of belt contact so it would of course slip first. This slip happens and I don't hear the engine load up at all. I know the Kawa's are good, but not that good. What use (other than for marketing) is a 23, 50, or 1000 HP engine on the back if power delivery is limited to less than what can be generated?

You sure it's not the deck folding the grass before it's cut? Take a look at the shape of the deck, the front angle directs tall stuff outward. It's not uncommon to have to go back over high grass/weeds the opposite direction, is it the pulley slipping? What blades are you using, a high lift(higher pitch than stock) leaves uncut strips on mine in tall grass.

Jun 23, 2014#13

K

Kremeneon

djdicetn said:
Slippage of the belt on the center pulley has got to be deck design/components. I have the same Kawa engine(691v) on my Gravely(except it's the FX series rather than the FR series) and I don't have that problem(and I cut through 8" windrows before installing my mulch kit). It's definitely not the Kawa engine.

I'm definitely not implying any issue with the engine at all, it is a beast!

I'm saying the mower should be able to stall the engine if pushed hard enough, not slip blades at something quite less than full torque output.

Jun 23, 2014#14

K

Kremeneon

RaptorSD said:
You sure it's not the deck folding the grass before it's cut? Take a look at the shape of the deck, the front angle directs tall stuff outward. It's not uncommon to have to go back over high grass/weeds the opposite direction, is it the pulley slipping? What blades are you using, a high lift(higher pitch than stock) leaves uncut strips on mine in tall grass.

Folding is certainly a possibility, I'm just trying to sort it out and I don't have lab engineering instruments at home, diagnosis via elimination... My gut says it is the center pulley slipping.

I have Oregon gator g5's on it now, same thing happens with stock blades also.

Jun 23, 2014#15

R

RaptorSD

Kremeneon said:
Folding is certainly a possibility, I'm just trying to sort it out and I don't have lab engineering instruments at home, diagnosis via elimination... My gut says it is the center pulley slipping.

I have Oregon gator g5's on it now, same thing happens with stock blades also.

Does the cut look like this? Scag Lawn Mower or Brush Mower?.dv - YouTube

Looks like the ZTR is taking an extra pass or half pass almost everywhere. My RSD will do at least that good there!

Jun 23, 2014#16

K

Kremeneon

I've mowed stuff at least that thick or more, RSD eats it up as well or better. Sort of hard to tell but yes, I do see some similar "chop".

Jun 23, 2014#17

T

Tta197

RaptorSD said:
The belt is supposed to dance around when running. I'd be worried about belt wear and spindle bearings with the commercial spring installed anchor to anchor, the difference in tension from stock is not even close.

I maintain that the stock spring is perfectly fine on this mower.

I thought you said you changed your spring to the heavier Fastrack spring back in the recall thread?

Jun 24, 2014#18

K

Kremeneon

Wow, crickets.....

Carscw said:
.... If the spring is to strong it will not let the idler pulley loosen the belt when under a heavy load.

The idler is on the slack side of the clutch, not the tension side, it cannot dynamically unload the belt.

Jun 24, 2014#19

Carscw

Kremeneon said:
Wow, crickets..... The idler is on the slack side of the clutch, not the tension side, it cannot dynamically unload the belt.

I guess you really do not get how it all works.
When you get in heavy grass the spring is pulled on. If the spring is to strong it will hold the belt to tight

Jun 24, 2014#20

K

Kremeneon

Carscw said:
I guess you really do not get how it all works.
When you get in heavy grass the spring is pulled on. If the spring is to strong it will hold the belt to tight

Please explain how load pulls the idler.

Jun 24, 2014#21

K

Kremeneon

I mowed this tonight.

There is indeed laydown happening, so I ignored that.

To test for power delivery I left a wide swath of laydown and covered it with a few passes of clippings, a _lot_, then went though that, full deck width.
Engine loaded up, but never bogged, the chute exit mimicked that of a silage chopper. I had the chute raised about 25 degrees and stuff was flying 20'.
On completing the pass, the area was vacuumed clean and cut evenly.

Can't be belt slip tonight.

RaptorSD: thanks for pointing out the center-prone laydown.

Jun 24, 2014#22

Carscw

Kremeneon said:
Please explain how load pulls the idler.

Do you really not know?

Jun 24, 2014#23

K

Kremeneon

Carscw said:
I guess you really do not get how it all works.
When you get in heavy grass the spring is pulled on. If the spring is to strong it will hold the belt to tight

Carscw said:
Do you really not know?

I thought I did, I've been told I'm wrong twice now without explanation why.

I understand what you are saying if the idler was on the tension side of the clutch. It would act as a torque limiter, opening up and releasing tension and letting things slip. I don't think this is ever a good design except in a cassette player or something.

Being on the run-off/going-off side of the clutch it is different, this is naturally the least 'tight' area of the belt since the highest tightness is between the clutch and right blade, energy/tension is absorbed by that blade. Then on to the center blade, where more is absorbed, then to the left blade, where all remaining energy is absorbed. It is like an endless string being pulled through the system. The tension spring is there to provide enough pull to keep belt friction over contact area on the clutch and drive pulleys enough to not slip since the belt isn't cogged or anything (or a chain)

Jun 24, 2014#24

chemingthroughtheleather

I'm lost in translation?:confused2: Maybe my ADD kicking in...please simplify this process. Nice pics! That field looks like mine,plenty of thatch to stunt thick growth.I just don't want the hassle of de-thatchment!:laughing:

Jun 25, 2014#25

DSepe

You should send that sunsetting hustler pic to hustler. It's that set up. Tagline "Conquer your lawn while making the neighbors jelly" (jealous for you old folk).

Jun 25, 2014#26

K

Kremeneon

chemingthroughtheleather said:
That field looks like mine,plenty of thatch to stunt thick growth.I just don't want the hassle of de-thatchment!:laughing:

It was bush hogged last fall. There's no real thatch but a lot of standing/leaning straw. A pass with deck on the transport hook and a finisher pass at 3.5" left pretty much cut stems and visible soil (and three families of VERY pissed off ants, need to take a jug of chem back there next time)

RaptorSD said:
I agree with Carscw and I've seen it first hand when my original spring distended trying to cut a field that high early in the season, damp with the chute down.

Bent/deformed? at what part of the spring?

RaptorSD said:
Kremeneon, the stock spring will cut that all day long with the mower setup like you have it.

It did. That whole ~2 acres was knee high, I've been working on it a little at a time and the photo is of finishing the last bit.

DSepe said:
You should send that sunsetting hustler pic to hustler. It's that set up. Tagline "Conquer your lawn while making the neighbors jelly" (jealous for you old folk).

I did, thanks for the suggestion!

Jun 3, 2018#27

T

tbob

Tensioner pulley came loose. How do reinstall?

Jun 4, 2018#28

K

Kremeneon

tbob said:
Tensioner pulley came loose. How do reinstall?

Is the pulley still attached to its sled and the whole thing came out, or is the bolt missing ?

Jun 5, 2018#29

mhavanti

Kreme,

I have no idea what all the hoopla is about. You have one of those hard to find, Mohawk decks that so many are seeking. Run it like the wild Indian you are and that sucker will keep on tickin' till you kill it. By the way, Mohawks are hard to kill.

Max

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Raptor SD deck spring

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