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PTO/Clutch Issue

#1

B

bamadirtrider

Friend has a SCAG Tiger Cat 61. Switched the PTO on and blew a 20 amp fuse on the right fuel cell Immediately. Didn't actuate the deck at all. Replaced it and blew again with no deck action. Put another fuse in so he could get it home(Its cranks up & drives no problem).
He then placed another 20 amp in, flipped the PTO switch on and blew the fuse. OHM'ed the clutch - 0.0. Put 12 volts to the clutch and it actuated. Reattached the wires and put a 25 amp fuse in and switched the PTO on and the blades turned as advertised. Only left it engaged for a couple seconds so he wouldn't burn anything. We are stumped: How does the clutch OHM a 0.0 and blow normal fuse & yet will work with a higher rated fuse?? And any suggestions for a fix is appreciated.
TIA


#2

StarTech

StarTech

Once you get down to under 1 ohm its takes a milliohms meter to measure that and most el cheapo meters simply can't read accurately this low.

But yes a clutch that is partially shorted can still operate but will over the charging system and a lot of the time start melting connector and burn off wire insulation. That PTO clutch should not be pulling more 7 amps at the most so install a 7.5 amp inline with the clutch and if blows replace the clutch.


#3

Its Me

Its Me

Tell your friend not to cut all the way to the roots of the grass, slow the froward speed down, that will lengthen the life of the clutch, they get to hot, slip, both of those build up head and then the problems start showing up, that clutch should last many years if used as designed.


#4

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

StarTech said:
Once you get down to under 1 ohm its takes a milliohms meter to measure that and most el cheapo meters simply can't read accurately this low.

But yes a clutch that is partially shorted can still operate but will over the charging system and a lot of the time start melting connector and burn off wire insulation. That PTO clutch should not be pulling more 7 amps at the most so install a 7.5 amp inline with the clutch and if blows replace the clutch.
Click to expand...
Most PTO clutches should be between 2-4 ohms when checking with a multimeter. Could be wires that are worn and shorting out to ground. Check wiring and repair wiring or replace PTO clutch. What is age of Scag and hour meter reading?


#5

B

bamadirtrider

Tiger Small Engine said:
Most PTO clutches should be between 2-4 ohms when checking with a multimeter. Could be wires that are worn and shorting out to ground. Check wiring and repair wiring or replace PTO clutch. What is age of Scag and hour meter reading?
Click to expand...
5 years and just over 500 hours.


#6

B

bamadirtrider

Its Me said:
Tell your friend not to cut all the way to the roots of the grass, slow the froward speed down, that will lengthen the life of the clutch, they get to hot, slip, both of those build up head and then the problems start showing up, that clutch should last many years if used as designed.
Click to expand...
He only cuts to 2.5 inches and never lets grass grow long. The company he retired from hired him to maintain the landscape and pay him by the hour so as to speed . . . LOL.


#7

R

RevB

bamadirtrider said:
Friend has a SCAG Tiger Cat 61. Switched the PTO on and blew a 20 amp fuse on the right fuel cell Immediately. Didn't actuate the deck at all. Replaced it and blew again with no deck action. Put another fuse in so he could get it home(Its cranks up & drives no problem).
He then placed another 20 amp in, flipped the PTO switch on and blew the fuse. OHM'ed the clutch - 0.0. Put 12 volts to the clutch and it actuated. Reattached the wires and put a 25 amp fuse in and switched the PTO on and the blades turned as advertised. Only left it engaged for a couple seconds so he wouldn't burn anything. We are stumped: How does the clutch OHM a 0.0 and blow normal fuse & yet will work with a higher rated fuse?? And any suggestions for a fix is appreciated.
TIA
Click to expand...
Imagine a face palm image right about here. Put in another fuse? Damn thing is trying to tell you something is shorted but, no, put in another one just to make sure. Then another. Then one with a higher amperage. Let's burn up the damn wiring too. Speaking of which...stop fixating on the clutch now, look at the wiring and connectors.


#8

StarTech

StarTech

RevB said:
Imagine a face palm image right about here. Put in another fuse? Damn thing is trying to tell you something is shorted but, no, put in another one just to make sure. Then another. Then one with a higher amperage. Let's burn up the damn wiring too. Speaking of which...stop fixating on the clutch now, look at the wiring and connectors.
Click to expand...
This a 7.5 amp should be installed in all PTO clutch wiring harnesses so when one is partially shorted it blew that fuse. I have replace a lot melted connector housings because some just larger and larger fuses.

I even had that told me go jump in the lake because the clutch was still working and that he would not replace that expensive item. Well his mower looked like this the other day.
1710598790860.png
Was it worth it not listening someone that knew better?


#9

R

RevB

StarTech said:
This a 7.5 amp should be installed in all PTO clutch wiring harnesses so when one is partially shorted it blew that fuse. I have replace a lot melted connector housings because some just larger and larger fuses.

I even had that told me go jump in the lake because the clutch was still working and that he would not replace that expensive item. Well his mower looked like this the other day.
View attachment 68068
Was it worth it not listening someone that knew better?
Click to expand...
Non-electron familiar folks think fuses protect the device. Nope. They protect the wiring to the device.


#10

B

bamadirtrider

RevB said:
Imagine a face palm image right about here. Put in another fuse? Damn thing is trying to tell you something is shorted but, no, put in another one just to make sure. Then another. Then one with a higher amperage. Let's burn up the damn wiring too. Speaking of which...stop fixating on the clutch now, look at the wiring and connectors.
Click to expand...
Certainly appreciate all that helpful information! Had I wanted to get blistered like that I would have attended a Don Rickles show and sat right down front. If you need help in how to just roll on by a post you have an issue with and can't use a civil tone I can carve out about 6 months to teach you as that May just be enuf!
Bugger off!


#11

B

bamadirtrider

StarTech said:
Once you get down to under 1 ohm its takes a milliohms meter to measure that and most el cheapo meters simply can't read accurately this low.

But yes a clutch that is partially shorted can still operate but will over the charging system and a lot of the time start melting connector and burn off wire insulation. That PTO clutch should not be pulling more 7 amps at the most so install a 7.5 amp inline with the clutch and if blows replace the clutch.
Click to expand...
He put an inline fuse of 7.5A in circuit and blew it immediately: the blades didn't even try to turn. So He'll be ordering a clutch.
Thanks for the info. Now to find the best deal on a clutch. Any suggestions/recommendations appreciated!


#12

StarTech

StarTech

Okay which mower is it.

1710633501384.png


#13

B

bamadirtrider

StarTech said:
Okay which mower is it.

View attachment 68076
Click to expand...
it is a Model: STCII-61V-32BV
S/N: R3100200


#14

StarTech

StarTech

about a 2019 model.
Scag PN 462339 around $400

Xtreme X0651 (order thru Stens or Xtreme, One year warranty). About $260, Better clutch and less than the price of the Scag if you buy direct and install it yourself but please the install instructions.


#15

B

bamadirtrider

StarTech said:
about a 2019 model.
Scag PN 462339 around $400

Xtreme X0651 (order thru Stens or Xtreme, One year warranty). About $260, Better clutch and less than the price of the Scag if you buy direct and install it yourself but please the install instructions.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the help. Will do.


#16

B

bertsmobile1

I will double up on what Star said
I managed to totally stuff an Extreme clutch by using my rattle gun
Expensive lesson learned
Had to make an offset open ender from some scrap 3/16" steel plate to hold the crankshaft from turning while tensioning the clutch.
And I know it will sound silly, but the dome washer ( where fitted ) is a lock washer and yo goes on so the bolt head compresses the dome


#17

B

bamadirtrider

bertsmobile1 said:
I will double up on what Star said
I managed to totally stuff an Extreme clutch by using my rattle gun
Expensive lesson learned
Had to make an offset open ender from some scrap 3/16" steel plate to hold the crankshaft from turning while tensioning the clutch.
And I know it will sound silly, but the dome washer ( where fitted ) is a lock washer and yo goes on so the bolt head compresses the dome
Click to expand...
Appreciate that info. Will tell my neighbor to read up some before attempting replacement!


#18

StarTech

StarTech

Copy of instructions and warning label just in case you don' t get them. Also make sure you
use anti seize compound when installing on the crankshaft. The next tech will thank you.

1710764528170.png
1710764607478.png
Image of the warning label, ignore the tools as those are installing a different style of
clutch but the warning is the same. Proprietary custom tool masked out. Not used on
Scag setup.
1710765361360.png


#19

B

bamadirtrider

StarTech said:
Copy of instructions and warning label just in case you don' t get them. Also make sure you
use anti seize compound when installing on the crankshaft. The next tech will thank you.

View attachment 68085
View attachment 68086
Image of the warning label, ignore the tools as those are installing a different style of
clutch but the warning is the same. Proprietary custom tool masked out. Not used on
Scag setup.
View attachment 68089
Click to expand...
Awesome info. Might have just saved him some extra dough! Appreciate it.


#20

B

bertsmobile1

Over the years I have gotten smarter or perhaps lazier not sure
Now when I fit a clutch I run a stud up the crankshaft , slide the clutch up till it just touched the end of the crankshaft then tighten a wing nut to draw the clutch up
So much easier than trying to hold it up laying on your back with the pulley in front of your nose .
The when you get to slot for the key it is just a case of a bit of a jiggle to make sure it is lined up.
Extreme put a square punch mark in the clutch to show you where the key is which is very civilised of them and was not in my instructions .
Still takes me 1/2 hour then again I could never get an LP record on the turntable is one shot either .


#21

B

bamadirtrider

Question: His appears to be a CCW Clutch (Pulley down - Toward the ground and clutch toward engine case. He has the Special-Washer which is about 1/4 inch wide!(His Does Not have the D-Spacer!). He can't figure out how to hold the assembly in order to torque the bolt??? I watched about every video on the Xtreme web site and didn't see how that is done. Tightening IF he had a D-Spacer is obvious but he sees no way to tighten with the giant flat washer! Anyone know how to do that.


#22

I

ILENGINE

Remove the spark plugs. Turn the engine by hand until one of the pistons is coming up toward TDC on compression stroke(valves need to be closed to prevent possible damage), and then stuff as much starter rope into the spark plug hole as possible and turn the piston up against the rope to lock the crankshaft from turning. torque the clutch bolt.


#23

StarTech

StarTech

Either that or remove the engine shroud then using a large flat blade screwdriver insert the tip into the flywheel ring gear and hold up against one the ignition coil's mounting studs. Then have a someone or himself tighten the retaining screw to torque spec. I do this here on most engines with some exception on large ZTRs that my arms are not long enough to reach both places at the same time.


#24

B

bertsmobile1

And I would give Xtreme a quick call to make sure that the end cap is correct
Never seen one that was not D shaped so yours might be a hangover monday morning special .


#25

StarTech

StarTech

Xtreme PTO clutches do come without the Double D adapter/spacer, Just depends on the application. Also even if the Double D spacer was they all don't take the same size tool. There is at least 5 different sizes.

Hustler Super Z is one example of not having the spacer. Also the Scag Turf Tigers I work on is another. See the following note from Xtreme.

1711970667453.png​



#26

B

bamadirtrider

Update: We installed the clutch following the guidelines in the install pages AND those that were presented here! He is cutting grass as I type this and wanted to thank everyone for the help in troubleshooting the issue and install guidance!! It was much appreciated! I add my thanks as well!


#27

B

BromD

Tiger Small Engine said:
Most PTO clutches should be between 2-4 ohms when checking with a multimeter. Could be wires that are worn and shorting out to ground. Check wiring and repair wiring or replace PTO clutch. What is age of Scag and hour meter reading?
Click to expand...
I have a STT61V-27KA. I just checked my clutch and it read 2.3 ohms. So it should be good right? I have a bad switch for sure but need to know if clutch should be replaced also...


#28

StarTech

StarTech

It should be fine unless there a random shorting occurring during rotation while engaged.


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