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Parking Lithium powered Equipment in the house or garage

#1

C

CaptFerd

The Danger of Parking Lithium powered Mowers, Bikes ect in the garage or house. Examples of other smaller devices as well and their dangerous surprises.



#2

B

bertsmobile1

Been saying this for as long as I have been here
Charge Li batteries on a metal or stone surface where there is ventilation and nothing near them to catch fire
If the battery overheats and that is 70C to 85C depending upon the chemistry or the very thin separator membranes rupture the battery will explode
Like a rocket engine the battery has both the fuel and the oxidizating agent in the one container so you can not stop the reaction in any way shape or form once it starts
The intense heat will cause what ever is near by ( starting with the plastic case ) to catch fire and from there it will spread .
All you can do is stand there hose in hand saturating everything else near by to prevent it catching fire & the fire spreading to engulf your garage / house / car etc .
The gasses generated are highly toxic as of course are the fumes & smoke from what ever else the battery sets alight .

As this week will have record temperatures well over 40C in much of the USA expect to see a lot of E vehicles catching fire
Out front on a 40+ day the bitumen road can get to 80C well above the self ignition temperature of cheap Li batteries .


#3

C

CaptFerd

bertsmobile1 said:
Been saying this for as long as I have been here
Charge Li batteries on a metal or stone surface where there is ventilation and nothing near them to catch fire
If the battery overheats and that is 70C to 85C depending upon the chemistry or the very thin separator membranes rupture the battery will explode
Like a rocket engine the battery has both the fuel and the oxidizating agent in the one container so you can not stop the reaction in any way shape or form once it starts
The intense heat will cause what ever is near by ( starting with the plastic case ) to catch fire and from there it will spread .
All you can do is stand there hose in hand saturating everything else near by to prevent it catching fire & the fire spreading to engulf your garage / house / car etc .
The gasses generated are highly toxic as of course are the fumes & smoke from what ever else the battery sets alight .

As this week will have record temperatures well over 40C in much of the USA expect to see a lot of E vehicles catching fire
Out front on a 40+ day the bitumen road can get to 80C well above the self ignition temperature of cheap Li batteries .
Click to expand...
Very well said


#4

G

GrumpyCat

CaptFerd said:
The Danger of Parking Lithium powered Mowers, Bikes ect in the garage or house. Examples of other smaller devices as well and their dangerous surprises.

Click to expand...
OMG! Gasoline never burns! No one has ever lost a garage, home, or business to a gasoline fire!

Or not.

Be sure to leave your cellphones outside on a non-flammable surface. And laptops. And everything.


#5

B

bertsmobile1

GrumpyCat said:
OMG! Gasoline never burns! No one has ever lost a garage, home, or business to a gasoline fire!

Or not.

Be sure to leave your cellphones outside on a non-flammable surface. And laptops. And everything.
Click to expand...
Difference is I can grab the fire blanket off the wall or the fire extinguisher under the lathe & out it out
I can not do that with a burning battery
I can leave a can of fuel on the dash board in the sunlight, it may swell split the container & go everywhere but it will not burst into flames & burn the car out .
People do stupid things refuling and pay the price
Find any Li battery device with a spontaneous combustion warning.
Amazing that my blades have a cancer warning because they contain nickel but the Li devices carry no warning about charging failures other than "incorrect charging or using another charger may damage this device "
Not quite the same as "can burst into flames & burn your house down "


#6

G

GrumpyCat

bertsmobile1 said:
Difference is I can grab the fire blanket off the wall or the fire extinguisher under the lathe & out it out
I can not do that with a burning battery
I can leave a can of fuel on the dash board in the sunlight, it may swell split the container & go everywhere but it will not burst into flames & burn the car out .
People do stupid things refuling and pay the price
Find any Li battery device with a spontaneous combustion warning.
Amazing that my blades have a cancer warning because they contain nickel but the Li devices carry no warning about charging failures other than "incorrect charging or using another charger may damage this device "
Not quite the same as "can burst into flames & burn your house down "
Click to expand...
So when is the last time any of that happened? Say cellphone on car dash bursting into flames? Or Garmin GPS for that matter (you know all Garmin GPSs the past 20 years have lithium batteries?) and we put our GPSs on the car dash and leave them there when parked.

On the other hand it is not too unusual to see a car beside the interstate, burned. Or a burned patch on the road.

In your defense there is a flood of junk Chinese e-bikes with poor construction, poor design, and poor battery management which are catching fire in operation and when being charged.


#7

B

bertsmobile1

I helped a truck driver put out a fire in his engine bay because I was riding my motorcycle so had a leather jacket, gloves & full face so I could get in and trip the cab latch then he could use his fire extinguisher
The fire was caused by a shop rag left in the engine bay
I have been using a Li powered phone for 15 years and it has been fine
A friend had his Samsung explode and burn out his van
He was out riding with me at the time & left the phone on the dash on the charger while we were away because it was flat
Lucky that the other 3 bikes were not in the back at the time
So no every one will not spontaneously combust but it is prudent to treat them as if they can
Every house does not burn down, get flooded or struck by lightening but we all have insurance just in case they do .

The brand new Dewalt ZTR was made in the USA and while it was outside normal operational use at the mower show being test run all day it still burst into flames .
Apparently MTD decided to delay the sale of them till they found out why

I can prevent a petrol fire by handleing it properly
I can not tell the internal integregty of a Li cell so they all get treated as if they can spontaneously combust .
I replace 20 or so perfectly good magneto coils a year because the electronic control chip has failed
electronics fail all the time but it is the consequences of them failing that is the problem
If mark had left his pone on the seat or centre console it probably would have been fine

How many people got cancer from a mower blade ?
yet they have warnings on them but Li powered devices do not have proper warnings or instructions

Tesla have been looking at a battery plant in Australia but they can not find any shipping company that will freight them for less than the cost of making them in the USA because of insurance .
In my workshop all of the bulk flamibles have to be stored in a fire proof cabinet or my insurance policy is void and this includes all of the spay cans other than those in use


#8

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

GrumpyCat said:
So when is the last time any of that happened? Say cellphone on car dash bursting into flames? Or Garmin GPS for that matter (you know all Garmin GPSs the past 20 years have lithium batteries?) and we put our GPSs on the car dash and leave them there when parked.

On the other hand it is not too unusual to see a car beside the interstate, burned. Or a burned patch on the road.

In your defense there is a flood of junk Chinese e-bikes with poor construction, poor design, and poor battery management which are catching fire in operation and when being
Click to expand...
bertsmobile1 said:
I helped a truck driver put out a fire in his engine bay because I was riding my motorcycle so had a leather jacket, gloves & full face so I could get in and trip the cab latch then he could use his fire extinguisher
The fire was caused by a shop rag left in the engine bay
I have been using a Li powered phone for 15 years and it has been fine
A friend had his Samsung explode and burn out his van
He was out riding with me at the time & left the phone on the dash on the charger while we were away because it was flat
Lucky that the other 3 bikes were not in the back at the time
So no every one will not spontaneously combust but it is prudent to treat them as if they can
Every house does not burn down, get flooded or struck by lightening but we all have insurance just in case they do .

The brand new Dewalt ZTR was made in the USA and while it was outside normal operational use at the mower show being test run all day it still burst into flames .
Apparently MTD decided to delay the sale of them till they found out why

I can prevent a petrol fire by handleing it properly
I can not tell the internal integregty of a Li cell so they all get treated as if they can spontaneously combust .
I replace 20 or so perfectly good magneto coils a year because the electronic control chip has failed
electronics fail all the time but it is the consequences of them failing that is the problem
If mark had left his pone on the seat or centre console it probably would have been fine

How many people got cancer from a mower blade ?
yet they have warnings on them but Li powered devices do not have proper warnings or instructions

Tesla have been looking at a battery plant in Australia but they can not find any shipping company that will freight them for less than the cost of making them in the USA because of insurance .
In my workshop all of the bulk flamibles have to be stored in a fire proof cabinet or my insurance policy is void and this includes all of the spay cans other than those in use
Click to expand...
We will be reading and hearing, and in some cases, experiencing battery power vs gas power for many years to come. I am already sick of it. The battery people come rushing to the defense of Lithium and the gas people stand by their preferred choice. Unless it is a cell phone or drill/impact battery, I got no love for batteries.


#9

B

bertsmobile1

Li is a wonderful source of power for small items like phones , cameras, laptops
It is marginal for things like scooters
It is a disaster for things like cars & trucks
And as for bolting one to the side of your house sucking up solar power a real fools errand.
E-things have a place , they are convienant , cheaper to make & require less maintenance .
However people should be made aware of the potential for disasters.
Then when our house burns out because you did not follow the rules it is your fault & your fault alone
Mercury cells are also dangerous, just in a different way .


#10

C

CaptFerd

Most older people that dont worry about it are thinking that their ole gas powered mower will take them through the change for the rest of their lives so why bother. The others that except and defend it are justifying their mistakes. By acknowledging and being aware of the dangers, my grandchildren and great grandchildren will be watching their grandchildren's burnt homes on the evening news.


#11

1

1 Lucky Texan

from firefightergarage.com

1689013054814.png


#12

papajack

papajack

Is it worth the chance? You can not put out one of these fires. My wife's Samsung Cell phone swelled up, ready to catch fire. We happen to see it in time.


#13

G

GrumpyCat

papajack said:
Is it worth the chance? You can not put out one of these fires. My wife's Samsung Cell phone swelled up, ready to catch fire. We happen to see it in time.
Click to expand...
Not all lithium batteries are fire hazards.


#14

C

CaptFerd

GrumpyCat said:
Not all lithium batteries are fire hazards.
Click to expand...
Who you going to believe your eyes or CNN.


#15

papajack

papajack




#16

papajack

papajack

www.consumerreports.org

'Fire! Fire! Fire!’ The Perplexing, Deadly Electric Bike Problem. - Consumer Reports

Electric bike fires can be deadly and are increasing. Consumer Reports investigates why the bikes' lithium-ion batteries explode and what can be done to fix the problem.
www.consumerreports.org www.consumerreports.org


#17

papajack

papajack

States are going to ban gas engines.
finance.yahoo.com

At least 8 states plan to ban gas-powered car sales after 2035 — 3 ways to capitalize on this seismic shift

A bet for the future?
finance.yahoo.com finance.yahoo.com


#18

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

papajack said:
States are going to ban gas engines.
finance.yahoo.com

At least 8 states plan to ban gas-powered car sales after 2035 — 3 ways to capitalize on this seismic shift

A bet for the future?
finance.yahoo.com finance.yahoo.com
Click to expand...

Are the cops going to arrest a person for using an internal combustion engine? You act like you are happy about it.


#19

papajack

papajack

Tiger Small Engine said:
Are the cops going to arrest a person for using an internal combustion engine? You act like you are happy about it.
Click to expand...
The way this is going, yes. Cops can be sent to arrest you for a CO2 law. Look what happened during COVID-19. People were arrested for being outside by themselves.
In 2026, all cars will have a kill switch built in. Your car will be monitored. A lawyer said he sees people getting automatic speeding tickets in the mail in the future. Once cities see this, they can make a lot of money.


#20

G

GrumpyCat

Tiger Small Engine said:
Are the cops going to arrest a person for using an internal combustion engine? You act like you are happy about it.
Click to expand...
You couldn't bother reading the link before shooting off at the mouth?

The supposed ban is of "new car sales". Infinitely (by political lifetimes) in the future when The Little Men In Power enacting this ban won't be around to actually have to enforce it. The same sort of Little Men today who do not enforce theft below $950.


#21

G

GrumpyCat

papajack said:
The way this is going, yes. Cops can be sent to arrest you for a CO2 law. Look what happened during COVID-19. People were arrested for being outside by themselves.
In 2026, all cars will have a kill switch built in. Your car will be monitored. A lawyer said he sees people getting automatic speeding tickets in the mail in the future. Once cities see this, they can make a lot of money.
Click to expand...
We learned during COVID. We won't tolerate such a police state... for a few years yet.

Kill switches will not be enacted.

We've been hearing of all these things since the Science Fiction genre was invented.


#22

papajack

papajack

GrumpyCat said:
You couldn't bother reading the link before shooting off at the mouth?

The supposed ban is of "new car sales". Infinitely (by political lifetimes) in the future when The Little Men In Power enacting this ban won't be around to actually have to enforce it. The same sort of Little Men today who do not enforce theft below $950.
Click to expand...
I have read it. Global warming is meant to give the government more power. With today's technology and what's coming, your house and cars will be controlled. For example, Exceed your carbon footprint with your car. It could be disabled for the rest of the month. They are already talking bout doing this for the companies and farms.
In Denver, when it got too hot, the city could cut off the AC to your home to help the power grid. This was for people who had thermostats on the web.


#23

papajack

papajack

When more people have these batteries we will see more problems. Besides the power grid can not support charging all these batteries.


#24

papajack

papajack

GrumpyCat said:
We learned during COVID. We won't tolerate such a police state... for a few years yet.

Kill switches will not be enacted.

We've been hearing of all these things since the Science Fiction genre was invented.
Click to expand...
Kill switches is already the law. They will be put in new cars. They used drunk driving as the excuse. You will be monitored to start the car. While driving if the device decides u r a problem the car is cut off.


#25

T

TiredRetired

LifePo4 are very safe and stable lithium batteries. I have read that Ryobi 40V HP are LifePo4 but cannot confirm. I always remove my standard lithium ion batteries from the charger when charged and keep them in a metal cabinet or ammo box. Overkill? Maybe but I sleep well at night. :)


#26

papajack

papajack

You can't be too careful. Ammo box is a good idea.


#27

B

bertsmobile1

TiredRetired said:
LifePo4 are very safe and stable lithium batteries. I have read that Ryobi 40V HP are LifePo4 but cannot confirm. I always remove my standard lithium ion batteries from the charger when charged and keep them in a metal cabinet or ammo box. Overkill? Maybe but I sleep well at night. :)
Click to expand...
No I would say your being sensible
My battery tools live under the steel welding bench and get recharged on the top of the welding bench with a lot of free space around them and near to the front should the worst happen .
All the other stuff like phones , computers & cameras get recharged in the laundry tub .
Very few will spontaneously combust when sitting there turned off , most of the problems occur when the charge regulating circuit fails or people use the wrong chargers .
Some batteries have the regulator built into the battery while others use regulated charging.
The big problem is really cheap ( usually Chinese ) equipment that has neither because the supplied charger is wrong for the battery .
We have had a spate ( over 100 ) e-bike failures for this reason
A battery is an explosive device ( all batteries ) as they are energy containers .
Drop a spannar on top of a flooded cell battery and see what happens after a few minutes
Lithium batteries are just a bit worse because they contain both an oxadising agent & a reducing agent separated by a thin plastic membrane .
People forget that a battery charging & discharging is a CHEMICAL REACTION so both generates heat and will be affected by heat .
This is why battery tools & cars perform poorly in cold weather .


#28

7394

7394

That's why I like antique vehicles..


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