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Opinions on Scag Patriot for 2 acre homeowner
#1
J
JPE
J
JPE
I'll be closing on my new home in 3 weeks so it's time to start looking at ZTRs. After talking to some folks (friends, relatives, and coworkers) advice is pretty much all over the map on brands and models which, I suppose, it both good news and bad. Good in that there are a lot of quality brands with loyal followings, and bad in that there's no consensus on what's important in a residential ZTR. So I figured why not turn to the internet to make sure what I'm looking at is in line with my requirements and expectations. :laughing:
First off, a little about my property. It's 2 acres, relatively flat (small drainage ditch at the front along the road), few trees (9 total) with lots of space between the trees (no trees are planted close to each other), 820 linear feet of fence (9' spacing between poles and 4' 2"x4" no-climb wire). Seeing as I'm north of 50 comfort is important to me. Also on my list of important things are: reliability, cut quality, minimal time spent cutting the grass, long life (I would love if this is the only ZTR I had to buy), and of course price.
So I went to one of my local Scag dealers this afternoon and he let me ride the Liberty Z and the Patriot on the field next door. The field looked smooth - flat with no ruts and no rocks or dips that I could see. But even looking relatively smooth, I was bounced out of the seat several times while riding the Liberty. And it was pretty jarring hitting unseen bumps even when I didn't get bounced all the way up. But on the Patriot things were much better. It was more of what I would describe as a bouncy ride instead of a jarring one. He didn't have a Freedom to demo, but I suspect the ride is similar to the Liberty
I know it's a subjective question, but what are your thoughts on the Patriot for my application? Are there other things I should be considering?
Thanks,
JPE
First off, a little about my property. It's 2 acres, relatively flat (small drainage ditch at the front along the road), few trees (9 total) with lots of space between the trees (no trees are planted close to each other), 820 linear feet of fence (9' spacing between poles and 4' 2"x4" no-climb wire). Seeing as I'm north of 50 comfort is important to me. Also on my list of important things are: reliability, cut quality, minimal time spent cutting the grass, long life (I would love if this is the only ZTR I had to buy), and of course price.
So I went to one of my local Scag dealers this afternoon and he let me ride the Liberty Z and the Patriot on the field next door. The field looked smooth - flat with no ruts and no rocks or dips that I could see. But even looking relatively smooth, I was bounced out of the seat several times while riding the Liberty. And it was pretty jarring hitting unseen bumps even when I didn't get bounced all the way up. But on the Patriot things were much better. It was more of what I would describe as a bouncy ride instead of a jarring one. He didn't have a Freedom to demo, but I suspect the ride is similar to the Liberty
I know it's a subjective question, but what are your thoughts on the Patriot for my application? Are there other things I should be considering?
Thanks,
JPE
#2
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
Hi. A few things. Any of those mowers will do the job and give you many years of service on a 2 acre lawn. Zero-turn mowers are pretty quick, so the ride can seem harsh, and being as it's a rigid frame, it kind of is. The tires provide most of the shock absorption. Unfortunately, many dealers don't bother to bring the tires down to the recommended pressures...they leave them at shipping pressure which is max PSI, generally around 22, whereas they should be in the 10-12 PSI range. No idea what the ones you rode were at. An upgrade to a suspension seat or a suspension seat base makes a big difference in what you'll feel.
With that said, the Patriot would knock out your 2 acres quickly, give a beautiful cut and probably last you the rest of your life. Personally I'd pick a Kawasaki engine over a Kohler, but opinions will vary. I think the Freedom is actually more like the Patriot than the Liberty, with the Patriot being sort of a Freedom pro.
Other mowers to consider in the same/similar league that I'm familiar with are the Exmark Radius and the Bob-Cat XRZ Pro/XRZ Pro RS. Excellent warranty on the Bob-Cat. You'd need to step up to the Radius X to get away from the proprietary Exmark engines, but from what I've heard they're pretty good engines, made in China for Exmark by Loncin.
However, I don't think you really need to look further than the Patriot if it's in your budget. About the only thing negative I can say about Scag machines is that they're very heavy and tend to rut. But weight = traction too and that weight comes from their sturdy build. The lighter machines can struggle for traction.
With that said, the Patriot would knock out your 2 acres quickly, give a beautiful cut and probably last you the rest of your life. Personally I'd pick a Kawasaki engine over a Kohler, but opinions will vary. I think the Freedom is actually more like the Patriot than the Liberty, with the Patriot being sort of a Freedom pro.
Other mowers to consider in the same/similar league that I'm familiar with are the Exmark Radius and the Bob-Cat XRZ Pro/XRZ Pro RS. Excellent warranty on the Bob-Cat. You'd need to step up to the Radius X to get away from the proprietary Exmark engines, but from what I've heard they're pretty good engines, made in China for Exmark by Loncin.
However, I don't think you really need to look further than the Patriot if it's in your budget. About the only thing negative I can say about Scag machines is that they're very heavy and tend to rut. But weight = traction too and that weight comes from their sturdy build. The lighter machines can struggle for traction.
#3
J
JPE
J
JPE
Thanks for the comment, Darryl. I've look at Exmark and Bob-Cat (and Hustler and Gravely and Torro and and and) and while you can get a quality machine from any manufacturer, I've narrowed it down to Scag based on friends with personal experience and a solid brand history. And really for no other reason than I could go back and forth between brands forever and never reach a decision on what to buy, so I just made the executive decision to go with Scag. :smile:
And you're right, it's more fair to compare the Patriot and the Freedom, not the Liberty. But for $1500 more on the Patriot I can get the Kawasaki FX vs. the Kohler on the Freedom, plus the suspension seat, plus the better/faster hydros. For me personally that seems like money well spent. And yeah, it's more than I want to spend, but it's always cheaper to buy once than twice.
And you're right, it's more fair to compare the Patriot and the Freedom, not the Liberty. But for $1500 more on the Patriot I can get the Kawasaki FX vs. the Kohler on the Freedom, plus the suspension seat, plus the better/faster hydros. For me personally that seems like money well spent. And yeah, it's more than I want to spend, but it's always cheaper to buy once than twice.
#4
D
Darryl G
Sounds like a good plan as long as the Scag dealer is reputable and reasonably convenient. I'm a firm believer that a good nearby dealer can be as or more important than the color of the machine. The Patriot is enough machine to be cutting a 2 acre lawn almost indefinitely, but you could always upgrade to the Tiger Cat II to be sure. :laughing:
D
Darryl G
Thanks for the comment, Darryl. I've look at Exmark and Bob-Cat (and Hustler and Gravely and Torro and and and) and while you can get a quality machine from any manufacturer, I've narrowed it down to Scag based on friends with personal experience and a solid brand history. And really for no other reason than I could go back and forth between brands forever and never reach a decision on what to buy, so I just made the executive decision to go with Scag. :smile:
And you're right, it's more fair to compare the Patriot and the Freedom, not the Liberty. But for $1500 more on the Patriot I can get the Kawasaki FX vs. the Kohler on the Freedom, plus the suspension seat, plus the better/faster hydros. For me personally that seems like money well spent. And yeah, it's more than I want to spend, but it's always cheaper to buy once than twice.
Sounds like a good plan as long as the Scag dealer is reputable and reasonably convenient. I'm a firm believer that a good nearby dealer can be as or more important than the color of the machine. The Patriot is enough machine to be cutting a 2 acre lawn almost indefinitely, but you could always upgrade to the Tiger Cat II to be sure. :laughing:
#5
D
DK35vince
D
DK35vince
Sounds like you have done your homework and that machine should last you a long time.
#6
jekjr
jekjr
Go a head and buy a Tiger Cat II Scag. It will last you 25 years or longer. The Velocity Deck is a game changer when it comes to cutting grass. Get either the 52" or 61" with a Kawasaki engine. There is nothing on the market that we have ever run or saw run that will out cut it.
#7
J
JPE
I'm already going over budget with a Patriot. I just can justify going that much over budget again for the Tiger Cat II. Yeah, I've heard great things about the deck, and the TC2 will last forever. But realistically the Patriot should last me forever too, and while it won't be as nice a cut as the TCII it should still be a plenty acceptable cut. At least that's how I'm looking at it, but I don't have experience with ZTRs so I realize I could be wrong.
J
JPE
Go a head and buy a Tiger Cat II Scag. It will last you 25 years or longer. The Velocity Deck is a game changer when it comes to cutting grass. Get either the 52" or 61" with a Kawasaki engine. There is nothing on the market that we have ever run or saw run that will out cut it.
I'm already going over budget with a Patriot. I just can justify going that much over budget again for the Tiger Cat II. Yeah, I've heard great things about the deck, and the TC2 will last forever. But realistically the Patriot should last me forever too, and while it won't be as nice a cut as the TCII it should still be a plenty acceptable cut. At least that's how I'm looking at it, but I don't have experience with ZTRs so I realize I could be wrong.
#8
J
JPE
Yeah, there another dealer I have to go check out. The first dealer was good but I figure it's worth checking out the other. The dealer I haven't checked out yet is 20 miles and 30 minutes away from my new property so it's a little closer than the one I visited. As for the TC2 - yeah, that's a little more than I can justify. :laughing:
Thanks - that's my hope.
J
JPE
Sounds like a good plan as long as the Scag dealer is reputable and reasonably convenient. I'm a firm believer that a good nearby dealer can be as or more important than the color of the machine. The Patriot is enough machine to be cutting a 2 acre lawn almost indefinitely, but you could always upgrade to the Tiger Cat II to be sure. :laughing:
Yeah, there another dealer I have to go check out. The first dealer was good but I figure it's worth checking out the other. The dealer I haven't checked out yet is 20 miles and 30 minutes away from my new property so it's a little closer than the one I visited. As for the TC2 - yeah, that's a little more than I can justify. :laughing:
Sounds like you have done your homework and that machine should last you a long time.
Thanks - that's my hope.
#9
mcdonell
I agree with jekjr. While the lower priced Skags might actually be the best value for you, higher price models will give a better ride, cut, and durability long after you forget the cost difference. There is a reason I see more Cat II's vs Patriots or Libertys in landscape trailers.
I have just 3 acres in Texas and use a Cheetah with 61 velocity cut. My son has 2 acres and a Cat II. We both have budget concerns. However, we decided the task of mowing is best performed by a commercial choice machine with solid experience. Admittedly, the better seat is more important each year. :wink:
Just my cents.
mcdonell
Go a head and buy a Tiger Cat II Scag. It will last you 25 years or longer. The Velocity Deck is a game changer when it comes to cutting grass. Get either the 52" or 61" with a Kawasaki engine. There is nothing on the market that we have ever run or saw run that will out cut it.
I agree with jekjr. While the lower priced Skags might actually be the best value for you, higher price models will give a better ride, cut, and durability long after you forget the cost difference. There is a reason I see more Cat II's vs Patriots or Libertys in landscape trailers.
I have just 3 acres in Texas and use a Cheetah with 61 velocity cut. My son has 2 acres and a Cat II. We both have budget concerns. However, we decided the task of mowing is best performed by a commercial choice machine with solid experience. Admittedly, the better seat is more important each year. :wink:
Just my cents.
#10
J
JPE
McDonell - I agree, it's the debate between cut quality and cost. Certainly the Velocity deck on the TC II will provide a better cut than the deck on the Patriot, but I do believe the deck on the Patriot will provide a good cut and getting the better cut just doesn't seem worth the extra $1500 - $2000 for the Cat II. I certainly could be wrong, but seeing as the Patriot will allow me to cut the yard in ~30 minutes I just can't see going longer than 1 week between cuts in the height of the growing season here in North Texas so I have to believe it will be an acceptable cut to me without major clumping or other problems. If you think I'm wrong about that, please let me know!
And as for ride quality - I found the Patriot ride quality to be perfectly acceptable at full speed vs. the Liberty which wasn't in the same league!
J
JPE
I agree with jekjr. While the lower priced Skags might actually be the best value for you, higher price models will give a better ride, cut, and durability long after you forget the cost difference. There is a reason I see more Cat II's vs Patriots or Libertys in landscape trailers.
I have just 3 acres in Texas and use a Cheetah with 61 velocity cut. My son has 2 acres and a Cat II. We both have budget concerns. However, we decided the task of mowing is best performed by a commercial choice machine with solid experience. Admittedly, the better seat is more important each year. :wink:
Just my cents.
McDonell - I agree, it's the debate between cut quality and cost. Certainly the Velocity deck on the TC II will provide a better cut than the deck on the Patriot, but I do believe the deck on the Patriot will provide a good cut and getting the better cut just doesn't seem worth the extra $1500 - $2000 for the Cat II. I certainly could be wrong, but seeing as the Patriot will allow me to cut the yard in ~30 minutes I just can't see going longer than 1 week between cuts in the height of the growing season here in North Texas so I have to believe it will be an acceptable cut to me without major clumping or other problems. If you think I'm wrong about that, please let me know!
And as for ride quality - I found the Patriot ride quality to be perfectly acceptable at full speed vs. the Liberty which wasn't in the same league!
#11
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
Scag offers 0% financing you know. https://www.scag.com/financing.html
Edit: oops, looks like that deal expired, but maybe there's a new one? A lot of pros, including myself finance with Sheffield Financial.
Edit: oops, looks like that deal expired, but maybe there's a new one? A lot of pros, including myself finance with Sheffield Financial.
#12
J
JPE
Yeah, but I have the money and I'd rather not finance if I don't have to. And yeah, at 0% I could invest the money and have it make me some more money, but I'd rather just have it paid for. It might be because I'm old but it just doesn't seem right to finance a mower that's just used for your own yard. :biggrin:
J
JPE
Scag offers 0% financing you know. https://www.scag.com/financing.html
Edit: oops, looks like that deal expired, but maybe there's a new one? A lot of pros, including myself finance with Sheffield Financial.
Yeah, but I have the money and I'd rather not finance if I don't have to. And yeah, at 0% I could invest the money and have it make me some more money, but I'd rather just have it paid for. It might be because I'm old but it just doesn't seem right to finance a mower that's just used for your own yard. :biggrin:
#13
B
bertsmobile1
Well no reason to feel like that.
When powered mowers were new, they were made well and thus had a mark up sufficient to maintain a lot of factories.
Dad bought his first powered mower for our 1/2 acre in 1963 . It was around 59 gunieas ( 59 pound 59 shillings & 59 pence )
We paid it off over 3 years by which time the price had doubled with interest but day earned £ 8 / week which was the minimum basic wage in those days.
The story for the fridge that replaced the ice box was the same .
There is no shame to finance , particularly if it is for a long term piece of equipment.
Oh & my sister still has that mower.
She lives in a 3 floor walk up ( apartments to some ) and the ground keeper uses it to mow the common grounds for her block & the block next door as they ripped down the fence to make a nice sized yard for kids to run around in.
Finance for a piece of trash that ends up in landfill before it is paid off is a crime but if you need to do it for well made equipment, then it is an investment.
It helps the shop to clear stock before they have to go into overdraft to pay for it & it helps the factory so every one benefits.
B
bertsmobile1
Yeah, but I have the money and I'd rather not finance if I don't have to. And yeah, at 0% I could invest the money and have it make me some more money, but I'd rather just have it paid for. It might be because I'm old but it just doesn't seem right to finance a mower that's just used for your own yard. :biggrin:
Well no reason to feel like that.
When powered mowers were new, they were made well and thus had a mark up sufficient to maintain a lot of factories.
Dad bought his first powered mower for our 1/2 acre in 1963 . It was around 59 gunieas ( 59 pound 59 shillings & 59 pence )
We paid it off over 3 years by which time the price had doubled with interest but day earned £ 8 / week which was the minimum basic wage in those days.
The story for the fridge that replaced the ice box was the same .
There is no shame to finance , particularly if it is for a long term piece of equipment.
Oh & my sister still has that mower.
She lives in a 3 floor walk up ( apartments to some ) and the ground keeper uses it to mow the common grounds for her block & the block next door as they ripped down the fence to make a nice sized yard for kids to run around in.
Finance for a piece of trash that ends up in landfill before it is paid off is a crime but if you need to do it for well made equipment, then it is an investment.
It helps the shop to clear stock before they have to go into overdraft to pay for it & it helps the factory so every one benefits.
#14
J
JPE
J
JPE
bertsmobile1, certainly no shame in financing a quality piece of gear that will last decades. It’s just a personal thing with me, I’d rather pay for my equipment outright. Having said that though, my house has a mortgage and 1 of my two cars has payments because I financed it.
It’s not that I don’t think a TigerCat II would be nice and is worth the money for a lot of people. It’s just that I can’t justify the step up from a Patriot to a TC II for a 2 acre lawn. Many people on this forum can justify it, and for them that’s great.
It’s not that I don’t think a TigerCat II would be nice and is worth the money for a lot of people. It’s just that I can’t justify the step up from a Patriot to a TC II for a 2 acre lawn. Many people on this forum can justify it, and for them that’s great.
#15
D
Darryl G
OK, I just thought I'd mention it.
FYI, the next door neighbor to one of my mowing accounts has a Freedom Z Pro, which I believe became the Patriot, and it leaves a very nice cut and he has been very happy with it. I looked it over when he first got it and have watched him mow with it and it seems like a fine machine.
I think you're being unrealistic to think you'll cut 2 acres in a half hour, but it should have no trouble knocking it out "quickly". Those acre per hour productivity numbers given by manufacturers are best case at full speed and are just not realistic in my experience.
Personally I give you credit for wanting to buy an entry level commercial machine from a dealer rather than doing what I feel too many homeowners with large lawns do...buy a residential Z mower from a big box store.
D
Darryl G
Yeah, but I have the money and I'd rather not finance if I don't have to. And yeah, at 0% I could invest the money and have it make me some more money, but I'd rather just have it paid for. It might be because I'm old but it just doesn't seem right to finance a mower that's just used for your own yard. :biggrin:
OK, I just thought I'd mention it.
FYI, the next door neighbor to one of my mowing accounts has a Freedom Z Pro, which I believe became the Patriot, and it leaves a very nice cut and he has been very happy with it. I looked it over when he first got it and have watched him mow with it and it seems like a fine machine.
I think you're being unrealistic to think you'll cut 2 acres in a half hour, but it should have no trouble knocking it out "quickly". Those acre per hour productivity numbers given by manufacturers are best case at full speed and are just not realistic in my experience.
Personally I give you credit for wanting to buy an entry level commercial machine from a dealer rather than doing what I feel too many homeowners with large lawns do...buy a residential Z mower from a big box store.
#16
J
JPE
Fair enough, but even if it takes me 45 minutes to an hour to mow the 2 acres (did I mention flat with almost no trees? :smile: ) I still figure that's quick enough to get in a weekly mowing. It's not like I'd be tempted to let the lawn get out of control because "I just don't have the time right now". That's really all I was trying to say.
And I admit I was looking at big box store stuff but a good friend said he went through 2 big box store ZTRs which broke down after a couple of seasons before he bought his Ferris. He advised me to spend a little more once than try to cheap out and spend it many times. Also, another friend has a Scag that he's run with no problems for 10 years. That was enough to convince me to buy quality gear once rather than cheaper stuff many times.
J
JPE
OK, I just thought I'd mention it.
FYI, the next door neighbor to one of my mowing accounts has a Freedom Z Pro, which I believe became the Patriot, and it leaves a very nice cut and he has been very happy with it. I looked it over when he first got it and have watched him mow with it and it seems like a fine machine.
I think you're being unrealistic to think you'll cut 2 acres in a half hour, but it should have no trouble knocking it out "quickly". Those acre per hour productivity numbers given by manufacturers are best case at full speed and are just not realistic in my experience.
Personally I give you credit for wanting to buy an entry level commercial machine from a dealer rather than doing what I feel too many homeowners with large lawns do...buy a residential Z mower from a big box store.
Fair enough, but even if it takes me 45 minutes to an hour to mow the 2 acres (did I mention flat with almost no trees? :smile: ) I still figure that's quick enough to get in a weekly mowing. It's not like I'd be tempted to let the lawn get out of control because "I just don't have the time right now". That's really all I was trying to say.
And I admit I was looking at big box store stuff but a good friend said he went through 2 big box store ZTRs which broke down after a couple of seasons before he bought his Ferris. He advised me to spend a little more once than try to cheap out and spend it many times. Also, another friend has a Scag that he's run with no problems for 10 years. That was enough to convince me to buy quality gear once rather than cheaper stuff many times.
#17
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
As for residential ZTRs, apart from the JD's & the Time Cutters everything else I have seen is pure trash.
The McCullochs, can' remember the models, vibrated themselves to death in under 3 years,
Frames were all cracked, can't remember how many spindle housing they went through but at least 1 pair a season per mower.
Got 2 RT Husqvarnas , total trash and both of the customers are regretting their purchases.
Luckily both of them kept their tractors or they would need to be accompanied by big game hunters going from the garage to the front gate.
The McCullochs, can' remember the models, vibrated themselves to death in under 3 years,
Frames were all cracked, can't remember how many spindle housing they went through but at least 1 pair a season per mower.
Got 2 RT Husqvarnas , total trash and both of the customers are regretting their purchases.
Luckily both of them kept their tractors or they would need to be accompanied by big game hunters going from the garage to the front gate.
#18
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
A nice thing about the Patriot is that they have a choice of both powered and non-powered rear baggers for it, should you decide to add one. The powered ones are pricey so it's nice to have the option in case you just want to be able to pick up leaves in the fall or something.
#19
cpurvis
cpurvis
The lifetime of any machine is determined by the availability of replacement parts. Once the manufacturer puts "no longer available" in the description of parts, you're relegated to scrounging for hopefully NOS parts but sometimes used parts will be all that's available. It doesn't matter whether you bought the "commercial" unit or the "homeowner" model, things wear out on both. Sometimes time does as much damage to a machine as use.
#20
J
JPE
Did I mention not a lot of trees? :smile: And not a lot of trees in the neighbors' properties. There's a stand of trees running along a creek but 600ft. away from the edge of my property. Here's a picture of my lot:
J
JPE
A nice thing about the Patriot is that they have a choice of both powered and non-powered rear baggers for it, should you decide to add one. The powered ones are pricey so it's nice to have the option in case you just want to be able to pick up leaves in the fall or something.
Did I mention not a lot of trees? :smile: And not a lot of trees in the neighbors' properties. There's a stand of trees running along a creek but 600ft. away from the edge of my property. Here's a picture of my lot:
#21
J
JPE
cpurvis, good point. From what I've read Scag is pretty good about providing replacement parts for a long time though, right? Not that it's guaranteed they will continue to do that, or do that for whatever model I choose, but at least they have a history of providing parts for a long time.
J
JPE
The lifetime of any machine is determined by the availability of replacement parts. Once the manufacturer puts "no longer available" in the description of parts, you're relegated to scrounging for hopefully NOS parts but sometimes used parts will be all that's available. It doesn't matter whether you bought the "commercial" unit or the "homeowner" model, things wear out on both. Sometimes time does as much damage to a machine as use.
cpurvis, good point. From what I've read Scag is pretty good about providing replacement parts for a long time though, right? Not that it's guaranteed they will continue to do that, or do that for whatever model I choose, but at least they have a history of providing parts for a long time.
#22
cpurvis
cpurvis
I don't have any experience with Scag, so I can't answer that directly. If you're on good terms with a Scag dealer's parts man, you could ask what models they made 25 years ago and then ask if parts are still available for those models.
Keep in mind, any of the suppliers to Scag (or any mower manufacturer) can quit producing replacement parts for the components they supplied to Scag, such as engines, hydros, etc. I'm in that situation with a 25 y/o Cub Cadet.
Keep in mind, any of the suppliers to Scag (or any mower manufacturer) can quit producing replacement parts for the components they supplied to Scag, such as engines, hydros, etc. I'm in that situation with a 25 y/o Cub Cadet.
#23
mcdonell
mcdonell
The Cheetah is Scags fastest mower and I have owned it four years. I budget 2 hours to mow my 3 acres and that does not include the needed shower from all the dust.
I find it uncomfortable to run the Cheetah in the high speed trans axle setting. Which means I am mowing at no more than about 11 mph. I find that speed sometimes a little rough riding and quick to steer. I have hit a few things over the years. Wife smiles at me and asks if I meant to bend that fence post in half. I tell her the Scag is undamaged. Truth is while the mower boasts speeds of up to 16 mph, I do not care to mow my place that fast or make all the divots. I am more comfortable slowing down a bit.
When I was shopping for a mower I talked to a bunch of folks. Nearly all said they wished their mower would go faster. I solved that with buying the Cheetah. The dealer said it was overkill for my 3 acres. I had my mind made up that I wanted speed, the suspension seat and suspension seat platform only offered on the Cheetah. I also wanted the 61 inch deck. I wanted to make the mowing chore quick.
My best friend has a 61 inch Turf Tiger. My son has a 54 inch Cat II. They are both happy Scag owners. My mower only gets about 50 to 75 hours per year. The Cheetah is overkill, too fast, and more expensive than I needed. Everyone was right, but I had my mind made up. Now, I am glad I bought it and would probably do it again. lol
We all have to do what we think feels right for us. That is why Scag makes so many models.
I find it uncomfortable to run the Cheetah in the high speed trans axle setting. Which means I am mowing at no more than about 11 mph. I find that speed sometimes a little rough riding and quick to steer. I have hit a few things over the years. Wife smiles at me and asks if I meant to bend that fence post in half. I tell her the Scag is undamaged. Truth is while the mower boasts speeds of up to 16 mph, I do not care to mow my place that fast or make all the divots. I am more comfortable slowing down a bit.
When I was shopping for a mower I talked to a bunch of folks. Nearly all said they wished their mower would go faster. I solved that with buying the Cheetah. The dealer said it was overkill for my 3 acres. I had my mind made up that I wanted speed, the suspension seat and suspension seat platform only offered on the Cheetah. I also wanted the 61 inch deck. I wanted to make the mowing chore quick.
My best friend has a 61 inch Turf Tiger. My son has a 54 inch Cat II. They are both happy Scag owners. My mower only gets about 50 to 75 hours per year. The Cheetah is overkill, too fast, and more expensive than I needed. Everyone was right, but I had my mind made up. Now, I am glad I bought it and would probably do it again. lol
We all have to do what we think feels right for us. That is why Scag makes so many models.
#24
BlazNT
BlazNT
I have both a 1999 Exmark and 1999 Toro that still have almost all the parts made for them. Most Commerical mowers doo unless it was only a few years run on the model.
#25
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
A few comments about the Scag Patriot:
Scag did finally listen to their dealer requests and put together a machine with features that only the upper level commercial machines have as standard equipment.
The Patriot was introduced in 2015 and has been upgraded since then. As mower manufacturers usually do a 24 month production run of specific models, as a perspective buyer, do your homework and check the parts manuals for upgrades in models and know what model numbers pertain to which production runs.
As ZTRs with mid mounted mower decks are dusty by nature of their design, it is important to know what type of air filtration system is installed on the engine options that are offered. Kawasaki FX series engines have the Donaldson dual element type air filter system and this is a good thing. The FX series engines also have an engine old cooler and this is also a good thing.
Scag put the Patriot together as an entry level commercial machine with a top level engine. Having a 6.5 gallon single fuel tank is a good thing. The latest model Patriots have an adjustable suspension seat and this is a good thing.
Almost all ZTRs have a rigid suspension which makes them a hard riding machine. Larger tires and suspension seats make the ride more comfortable and the Patriot is an acceptable compromise between lower entry level machines and upper level commercial rated machines such as the Tiger Cat II and Turf Tiger. It is all about the money!
The Patriot has either Hydro-Gear 3400 (61" deck) or 3100 (52" deck) hydrostatic drives with cooling fans, both of these drive systems are very good.
The mower deck although not a Velocity deck, has been upgraded with a larger width deck chute than the original design decks.
Scag does offer two collection systems on the Patriot, a mower deck spindle driven blower model and a mower deck air flow model among other options.
I do limited service on Scags and other makes of tractors/mowers and have had no problems getting parts for older model Scag machines. My local Scag dealer may not have the part in stock but will get the part(s) within a few days, no problem. And having been a power equipment mech and parts man, it is always good to have a great relationship with both!
Scag did finally listen to their dealer requests and put together a machine with features that only the upper level commercial machines have as standard equipment.
The Patriot was introduced in 2015 and has been upgraded since then. As mower manufacturers usually do a 24 month production run of specific models, as a perspective buyer, do your homework and check the parts manuals for upgrades in models and know what model numbers pertain to which production runs.
As ZTRs with mid mounted mower decks are dusty by nature of their design, it is important to know what type of air filtration system is installed on the engine options that are offered. Kawasaki FX series engines have the Donaldson dual element type air filter system and this is a good thing. The FX series engines also have an engine old cooler and this is also a good thing.
Scag put the Patriot together as an entry level commercial machine with a top level engine. Having a 6.5 gallon single fuel tank is a good thing. The latest model Patriots have an adjustable suspension seat and this is a good thing.
Almost all ZTRs have a rigid suspension which makes them a hard riding machine. Larger tires and suspension seats make the ride more comfortable and the Patriot is an acceptable compromise between lower entry level machines and upper level commercial rated machines such as the Tiger Cat II and Turf Tiger. It is all about the money!
The Patriot has either Hydro-Gear 3400 (61" deck) or 3100 (52" deck) hydrostatic drives with cooling fans, both of these drive systems are very good.
The mower deck although not a Velocity deck, has been upgraded with a larger width deck chute than the original design decks.
Scag does offer two collection systems on the Patriot, a mower deck spindle driven blower model and a mower deck air flow model among other options.
I do limited service on Scags and other makes of tractors/mowers and have had no problems getting parts for older model Scag machines. My local Scag dealer may not have the part in stock but will get the part(s) within a few days, no problem. And having been a power equipment mech and parts man, it is always good to have a great relationship with both!
#26
J
JPE
Thanks for the comments mcdonell. I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment "we all have to do what we think feels right for us". I also appreciate you being honest about your Cheetah - you know it's overkill for your job, and you're still happy with it. Nothing wrong with that!
Good to know. Hopefully Scag will have parts available for the Patriot for a long while. I guess it's technically only been a model for about 5 years but I'm guessing the Freedom Z HD which it evolved from shares a large number of parts. Certainly parts available might be another advantage to the TC II but hopefully that won't be an issue.
Thanks for the comments Mad Mackie! I'll check the parts manuals and see what the upgrades are on the Patriot. Do those manuals contain the time periods for the production runs and model numbers that correspond to those runs?
And like you said, it's all about the money. Would I like the full platform suspension, the Velocity deck, the extra speed, the cast iron spindles, the replaceable caster arms, and the tiger eye monitoring of the TC II? Sure I would. Do I want to pay $1500 - $2000 for those? No I don't. I know I'll be happy with the Patriot features for a long long time!
And as you and others have said, a good relationship with your dealer (sales AND parts) is invaluable. That's why I'll be checking out another dealer in a week or two. I want to find the best place to buy based on relationship, not just price.
J
JPE
The Cheetah is Scags fastest mower and I have owned it four years. I budget 2 hours to mow my 3 acres and that does not include the needed shower from all the dust.
I find it uncomfortable to run the Cheetah in the high speed trans axle setting. Which means I am mowing at no more than about 11 mph. I find that speed sometimes a little rough riding and quick to steer. [SNIP]
When I was shopping for a mower I talked to a bunch of folks. Nearly all said they wished their mower would go faster. I solved that with buying the Cheetah. The dealer said it was overkill for my 3 acres. I had my mind made up that I wanted speed, the suspension seat and suspension seat platform only offered on the Cheetah. I also wanted the 61 inch deck. I wanted to make the mowing chore quick.
[SNIP] The Cheetah is overkill, too fast, and more expensive than I needed. Everyone was right, but I had my mind made up. Now, I am glad I bought it and would probably do it again. lol
We all have to do what we think feels right for us. That is why Scag makes so many models.
Thanks for the comments mcdonell. I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment "we all have to do what we think feels right for us". I also appreciate you being honest about your Cheetah - you know it's overkill for your job, and you're still happy with it. Nothing wrong with that!
I have both a 1999 Exmark and 1999 Toro that still have almost all the parts made for them. Most Commerical mowers doo unless it was only a few years run on the model.
Good to know. Hopefully Scag will have parts available for the Patriot for a long while. I guess it's technically only been a model for about 5 years but I'm guessing the Freedom Z HD which it evolved from shares a large number of parts. Certainly parts available might be another advantage to the TC II but hopefully that won't be an issue.
A few comments about the Scag Patriot:
Scag did finally listen to their dealer requests and put together a machine with features that only the upper level commercial machines have as standard equipment.
The Patriot was introduced in 2015 and has been upgraded since then. As mower manufacturers usually do a 24 month production run of specific models, as a perspective buyer, do your homework and check the parts manuals for upgrades in models and know what model numbers pertain to which production runs.
As ZTRs with mid mounted mower decks are dusty by nature of their design, it is important to know what type of air filtration system is installed on the engine options that are offered. Kawasaki FX series engines have the Donaldson dual element type air filter system and this is a good thing. The FX series engines also have an engine old cooler and this is also a good thing.
Scag put the Patriot together as an entry level commercial machine with a top level engine. Having a 6.5 gallon single fuel tank is a good thing. The latest model Patriots have an adjustable suspension seat and this is a good thing.
Almost all ZTRs have a rigid suspension which makes them a hard riding machine. Larger tires and suspension seats make the ride more comfortable and the Patriot is an acceptable compromise between lower entry level machines and upper level commercial rated machines such as the Tiger Cat II and Turf Tiger. It is all about the money!
The Patriot has either Hydro-Gear 3400 (61" deck) or 3100 (52" deck) hydrostatic drives with cooling fans, both of these drive systems are very good.
The mower deck although not a Velocity deck, has been upgraded with a larger width deck chute than the original design decks.
Scag does offer two collection systems on the Patriot, a mower deck spindle driven blower model and a mower deck air flow model among other options.
I do limited service on Scags and other makes of tractors/mowers and have had no problems getting parts for older model Scag machines. My local Scag dealer may not have the part in stock but will get the part(s) within a few days, no problem. And having been a power equipment mech and parts man, it is always good to have a great relationship with both!
Thanks for the comments Mad Mackie! I'll check the parts manuals and see what the upgrades are on the Patriot. Do those manuals contain the time periods for the production runs and model numbers that correspond to those runs?
And like you said, it's all about the money. Would I like the full platform suspension, the Velocity deck, the extra speed, the cast iron spindles, the replaceable caster arms, and the tiger eye monitoring of the TC II? Sure I would. Do I want to pay $1500 - $2000 for those? No I don't. I know I'll be happy with the Patriot features for a long long time!
And as you and others have said, a good relationship with your dealer (sales AND parts) is invaluable. That's why I'll be checking out another dealer in a week or two. I want to find the best place to buy based on relationship, not just price.
#27
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Hi JPE,
On the Scag website at the bottom of the home page is a link to manuals. Find the Patriot link and you will see 3 different PIN number groups, the first being the latest model. Open each link and you will see the publishing date along with the PIN number group. Print these pages and bring them along with you when you visit your Scag dealers and look over any Patriot machines that they may have in stock. This way you will know specifically which production run you are looking at and what is standard equipment on that particular machine. The suspension seat is only on the latest run.
Years back I replaced the stock seat on my Tiger Cub with a mid range suspension seat and this seat was $600 back then and needed an additional electrical harness to connect to the Scag electrical system. This seat is very comfortable and well worth the money, but it would have been good to have known about seat options when I bought this machine new in 2008. In other words I had not done my homework before I went looking for a new machine. :ashamed:
Years back most Scag machines had the Advantage series mower decks. Scag upgraded to the Velocity series decks on later model and current upper level machines. They still produce what is an upgraded Advantage deck and use it on lower level machines. The major upgrade that was done was to make the discharge area wider and this is what is on the Patriot and many other mid and lower level machines.:smile:
On the Scag website at the bottom of the home page is a link to manuals. Find the Patriot link and you will see 3 different PIN number groups, the first being the latest model. Open each link and you will see the publishing date along with the PIN number group. Print these pages and bring them along with you when you visit your Scag dealers and look over any Patriot machines that they may have in stock. This way you will know specifically which production run you are looking at and what is standard equipment on that particular machine. The suspension seat is only on the latest run.
Years back I replaced the stock seat on my Tiger Cub with a mid range suspension seat and this seat was $600 back then and needed an additional electrical harness to connect to the Scag electrical system. This seat is very comfortable and well worth the money, but it would have been good to have known about seat options when I bought this machine new in 2008. In other words I had not done my homework before I went looking for a new machine. :ashamed:
Years back most Scag machines had the Advantage series mower decks. Scag upgraded to the Velocity series decks on later model and current upper level machines. They still produce what is an upgraded Advantage deck and use it on lower level machines. The major upgrade that was done was to make the discharge area wider and this is what is on the Patriot and many other mid and lower level machines.:smile:
#28
J
JPE
J
JPE
Thanks for the info on the links, Mad Mackie!
One other quick question to all the experts out there. I assume that the service life of the sealed aluminum ball bearing spindles on the Patriot will still be a long time (500+ hours even with 1/3 of those hours in 90+ degree North Texas heat?) assuming I don't hit things with the blades, in which case a sealed aluminum spindle can be instantly destroyed, but so can a greaseable cast iron spindle with roller bearings...right? And worse case, even if I get 500 hours out of the spindles, I could just replace them in ~15 years when I hit that mark, assuming they're still manufactured. I'm just trying to make sure that there isn't a huge advantage in terms of lifespan of the mower with the TC II. I just can't see there being a huge advantage for my little yard, but I figure it was worth asking the question. A TC II seems like such overkill to me.
One other quick question to all the experts out there. I assume that the service life of the sealed aluminum ball bearing spindles on the Patriot will still be a long time (500+ hours even with 1/3 of those hours in 90+ degree North Texas heat?) assuming I don't hit things with the blades, in which case a sealed aluminum spindle can be instantly destroyed, but so can a greaseable cast iron spindle with roller bearings...right? And worse case, even if I get 500 hours out of the spindles, I could just replace them in ~15 years when I hit that mark, assuming they're still manufactured. I'm just trying to make sure that there isn't a huge advantage in terms of lifespan of the mower with the TC II. I just can't see there being a huge advantage for my little yard, but I figure it was worth asking the question. A TC II seems like such overkill to me.
#29
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I have not heard anyone complain about the aluminum spindle housings on Scag machines. Scag aluminum housings are fairly strong compared to many other makes.
I have replaced both aluminum and cast iron spindle housings on many different makes. Moisture and dissimilar metals contribute to corrosion of the aluminum housings. Grass clipping accumulation under the deck will ad to corrosion/rust problems on any deck, keeping it clean and dry prolongs the life.
I have replaced both aluminum and cast iron spindle housings on many different makes. Moisture and dissimilar metals contribute to corrosion of the aluminum housings. Grass clipping accumulation under the deck will ad to corrosion/rust problems on any deck, keeping it clean and dry prolongs the life.
#30
J
JPE
Thanks for the confirmation. Clean and dry, along with well maintained, seem to be the keys to a long service life for just about any machine I've dealt with. :smile:
J
JPE
I have not heard anyone complain about the aluminum spindle housings on Scag machines. Scag aluminum housings are fairly strong compared to many other makes.
I have replaced both aluminum and cast iron spindle housings on many different makes. Moisture and dissimilar metals contribute to corrosion of the aluminum housings. Grass clipping accumulation under the deck will ad to corrosion/rust problems on any deck, keeping it clean and dry prolongs the life.
Thanks for the confirmation. Clean and dry, along with well maintained, seem to be the keys to a long service life for just about any machine I've dealt with. :smile:
#31
B
bertsmobile1
And the big killer, washing down a hot mower in particular using the wash out port when hot will draw water into the bearings and cause them to fail in a single season.
B
bertsmobile1
I have not heard anyone complain about the aluminum spindle housings on Scag machines. Scag aluminum housings are fairly strong compared to many other makes.
I have replaced both aluminum and cast iron spindle housings on many different makes. Moisture and dissimilar metals contribute to corrosion of the aluminum housings. Grass clipping accumulation under the deck will ad to corrosion/rust problems on any deck, keeping it clean and dry prolongs the life.
And the big killer, washing down a hot mower in particular using the wash out port when hot will draw water into the bearings and cause them to fail in a single season.
#32
J
JPE
I'm going to try and live my life without a handheld/backpack lawn blower, but I do have a 30 gallon compressor in the garage and blower gun that I intend to use to blow the grass off before putting the mower away.
J
JPE
And the big killer, washing down a hot mower in particular using the wash out port when hot will draw water into the bearings and cause them to fail in a single season.
I'm going to try and live my life without a handheld/backpack lawn blower, but I do have a 30 gallon compressor in the garage and blower gun that I intend to use to blow the grass off before putting the mower away.
#33
B
bertsmobile1
Yep,
An air duster is what I use in the workshop.
On with a 4' long shaft so you can get into all the nooks & crannies and under the pulley guards without eating dust & grass clippings.
Even more important is between the cooling fins on the trannies.
B
bertsmobile1
I'm going to try and live my life without a handheld/backpack lawn blower, but I do have a 30 gallon compressor in the garage and blower gun that I intend to use to blow the grass off before putting the mower away.
Yep,
An air duster is what I use in the workshop.
On with a 4' long shaft so you can get into all the nooks & crannies and under the pulley guards without eating dust & grass clippings.
Even more important is between the cooling fins on the trannies.
#34
D
Darryl G
I can't imagine life without a big backpack blower, even as just a homeowner with a large lawn. Yeah you can blow your mower off with a compressor, but for general lawn maintenance they make the place look so much better so quickly. I blow the porch, the siding and screens all around, the AC unit, the basement bulkhead, the beds, the cars including after washing, the driveway, leaves, sticks, twigs, nuts, driveway gravel, heavy grass windrows, drainage ditches and pipes, etc, etc. They'll even blow light brush. The new 80cc blowers, the Stihl BR800s and the Echo 8010, are awesome for large properties. About $600. LOVE my Echo. If you can't get one right away try to add one later. Don't waste your money on a handheld for a property that big! 65cc backpack blower at least. Tell me you don't want something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DXVh0wPs7g :smile:
D
Darryl G
I'm going to try and live my life without a handheld/backpack lawn blower, but I do have a 30 gallon compressor in the garage and blower gun that I intend to use to blow the grass off before putting the mower away.
I can't imagine life without a big backpack blower, even as just a homeowner with a large lawn. Yeah you can blow your mower off with a compressor, but for general lawn maintenance they make the place look so much better so quickly. I blow the porch, the siding and screens all around, the AC unit, the basement bulkhead, the beds, the cars including after washing, the driveway, leaves, sticks, twigs, nuts, driveway gravel, heavy grass windrows, drainage ditches and pipes, etc, etc. They'll even blow light brush. The new 80cc blowers, the Stihl BR800s and the Echo 8010, are awesome for large properties. About $600. LOVE my Echo. If you can't get one right away try to add one later. Don't waste your money on a handheld for a property that big! 65cc backpack blower at least. Tell me you don't want something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DXVh0wPs7g :smile:
#35
C
cruzenmike
C
cruzenmike
I use my blower attachment on my Ryobi SS26 to blow off the Exmark after each use. It has enough power to get all of the grass out from under the deck and the leaves from the engine screen. I could never use this thing for leaves on the lawn in the fall, but for after mowing and edging it is preferable, especially since I go right from edging, to whacking to blowing all without shutting it off. If money permits I hope to upgrade to the Honda VersAttach system this year!!
#36
D
Darryl G
Just wondering...do you "accidentally" break those on machines that you service? :wink:
D
Darryl G
And the big killer, washing down a hot mower in particular using the wash out port when hot will draw water into the bearings and cause them to fail in a single season.
Just wondering...do you "accidentally" break those on machines that you service? :wink:
#37
C
cruzenmike
I have never been able to figure out why they have those wash out ports either! Another big issue is that many of the spindles on these machines are aluminum and if hot enough after use are also more prone to cracking when cold water is introduced. Manufacturers likely made the decision to include these parts because most consumers aren't going to get under the deck and scrape it out, and if the washout process helps to eliminate even half of what is caked under the deck, the user will have a more positive experience while cutting (due to improved airflow).
C
cruzenmike
And the big killer, washing down a hot mower in particular using the wash out port when hot will draw water into the bearings and cause them to fail in a single season.
I have never been able to figure out why they have those wash out ports either! Another big issue is that many of the spindles on these machines are aluminum and if hot enough after use are also more prone to cracking when cold water is introduced. Manufacturers likely made the decision to include these parts because most consumers aren't going to get under the deck and scrape it out, and if the washout process helps to eliminate even half of what is caked under the deck, the user will have a more positive experience while cutting (due to improved airflow).
#38
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I have a Stihl BR600 and while operating my Scag Tiger Cub with a 3 bag collection system I need to periodically blow the dust and crud off the machine and me. I wear a dust mask, goggles, hat and hearing protection but the rest of me and the machine get dirty! A blow gun from an air compressor doesn't put out enough air volume to clean the collection bags so along with a back pack blower, I can do a fairly good cleanup between jobs.
Over the many years that I have mowed, I have noticed a cross contamination of weeds between customers places and to my own. Although it is difficult to clean the underside of the deck between jobs, I try my best to do it. As grass is usually damp and clippings accumulate in clumps under the deck, I sometimes remove the collection blower on a job site after mowing and cleanup as best that I can before moving on to the next job or quitting for the day. When the grass is dry and dusty, the mower deck stays cleaner but the machine and me get filthy!
I'm down to only 4 accounts plus my own place and a few spring/fall only cleanup folks.:smile:
Over the many years that I have mowed, I have noticed a cross contamination of weeds between customers places and to my own. Although it is difficult to clean the underside of the deck between jobs, I try my best to do it. As grass is usually damp and clippings accumulate in clumps under the deck, I sometimes remove the collection blower on a job site after mowing and cleanup as best that I can before moving on to the next job or quitting for the day. When the grass is dry and dusty, the mower deck stays cleaner but the machine and me get filthy!
I'm down to only 4 accounts plus my own place and a few spring/fall only cleanup folks.:smile:
#39
B
bertsmobile1
Why,
You give advice to your customers
They fail to take it so you get to replace spindle bearings one or two times a season at $ 40 a spindle.
So on a 3 spindle deck. $ 120 for 1/2 hours work & $ 60 in parts.
OR $ 60 to do the same job using the bearings that the customer supplies because the !#*#? bearing I use only last 1/2 a season.
Keeps me in booze :drink:
B
bertsmobile1
Just wondering...do you "accidentally" break those on machines that you service? :wink:
Why,
You give advice to your customers
They fail to take it so you get to replace spindle bearings one or two times a season at $ 40 a spindle.
So on a 3 spindle deck. $ 120 for 1/2 hours work & $ 60 in parts.
OR $ 60 to do the same job using the bearings that the customer supplies because the !#*#? bearing I use only last 1/2 a season.
Keeps me in booze :drink:
#40
J
JPE
J
JPE
Ok, maybe I need to look at picking up a blower too. :smile:
I was hoping to get away without one - I don’t have any leaves to speak of that fall/blow into the yard. And I was thinking of just making a pass over the driveway and walkway with the mower after cutting and trimming. But a blower would certainly be easier and it would also let me easily blow off the mower.
I was hoping to get away without one - I don’t have any leaves to speak of that fall/blow into the yard. And I was thinking of just making a pass over the driveway and walkway with the mower after cutting and trimming. But a blower would certainly be easier and it would also let me easily blow off the mower.
#41
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
If you don't have bulk leaves and debris to deal with, you can probably get by with a smaller unit. Something with a 50cc engine and putting out 500+ cfm at 200+ mph will tidy things up fairly quickly without breaking the bank. The Husqvarna 150bt is arguably the best value in the 50cc range. It's a slightly cheaped-out Lowes version of their dealer model 350bt. The Echo pb580 is a nice unit for the price too. Having run the 76cc Husqvarna 580bt for several years and an 80cc Echo pb8010 for a season, the smaller units seem like toys to me. But to someone who hasn't been spoiled by using monster backpack units, a smaller one would probably make you happy. My brother-in-law is perfectly happy with the 150bt unit I gifted him for use on his 3 acres.
The thing with using your mower as a blower is that it doesn't really do the job properly - the grass tends to build up at the edges, forming unsightly rafts of grass clippings, and you're putting hours on a machine that costs 10 to 20 times as much as one designed to do the job. Granted, it's not a lot of extra time on the machine, but still...
The thing with using your mower as a blower is that it doesn't really do the job properly - the grass tends to build up at the edges, forming unsightly rafts of grass clippings, and you're putting hours on a machine that costs 10 to 20 times as much as one designed to do the job. Granted, it's not a lot of extra time on the machine, but still...
#42
jekjr
20 years from now that won't be $100 a year. The seat is better the deck is incredibly better. Not just in cut but the ability to cut if you get into the position to have to cut it tall. Blade change is much better from my understanding. I personally have not used the home owner models but I do know that the Velocity deck has the nuts on top and you can take a cordless impact and change the blades in 5 minutes easily. We do it multiple times a day with the ones we run. Many pro's that you could quite possibly wish a couple of years down the road that you went ahead and got.
Just my opinion. Good luck in what ever you get.
jekjr
McDonell - I agree, it's the debate between cut quality and cost. Certainly the Velocity deck on the TC II will provide a better cut than the deck on the Patriot, but I do believe the deck on the Patriot will provide a good cut and getting the better cut just doesn't seem worth the extra $1500 - $2000 for the Cat II. I certainly could be wrong, but seeing as the Patriot will allow me to cut the yard in ~30 minutes I just can't see going longer than 1 week between cuts in the height of the growing season here in North Texas so I have to believe it will be an acceptable cut to me without major clumping or other problems. If you think I'm wrong about that, please let me know!
And as for ride quality - I found the Patriot ride quality to be perfectly acceptable at full speed vs. the Liberty which wasn't in the same league!
20 years from now that won't be $100 a year. The seat is better the deck is incredibly better. Not just in cut but the ability to cut if you get into the position to have to cut it tall. Blade change is much better from my understanding. I personally have not used the home owner models but I do know that the Velocity deck has the nuts on top and you can take a cordless impact and change the blades in 5 minutes easily. We do it multiple times a day with the ones we run. Many pro's that you could quite possibly wish a couple of years down the road that you went ahead and got.
Just my opinion. Good luck in what ever you get.
#43
J
JPE
I hear ya. I do love doing shade tree "mechanic-ing" on cars and motorcycles and expect I'll enjoy it on a mower too. The greaseable cast iron spindles with roller bearings on the TC II seem like they will last forever in my application. But it also seems like the aluminum sealed spindles with ball bearings will also be good enough to last forever for me. Certainly the Velocity 2 deck is better on the TC II but, once again, the deck on the Patriot (Advantage deck?) will be good enough for me. And while I'm sure the seat on the TC II is better, the seat on the Patriot was still good on my test ride. I expect the extra speed of the TC II would also be nice...but once again, it's all about price vs. features. I did notice that Scag has the STCII-52V-22FX listed as a "Promotional Model" but they don't say what that means in terms of discount versus their normal list price.
Right now I'l still leaning towards the Patriot, but I don't disagree that the TC II has a lot of desired upgrades. I guess we'll see what I end up with in 17 days when I go to buy my mower. :smile:
J
JPE
20 years from now that won't be $100 a year. The seat is better the deck is incredibly better. Not just in cut but the ability to cut if you get into the position to have to cut it tall. Blade change is much better from my understanding. I personally have not used the home owner models but I do know that the Velocity deck has the nuts on top and you can take a cordless impact and change the blades in 5 minutes easily. We do it multiple times a day with the ones we run. Many pro's that you could quite possibly wish a couple of years down the road that you went ahead and got.
Just my opinion. Good luck in what ever you get.
I hear ya. I do love doing shade tree "mechanic-ing" on cars and motorcycles and expect I'll enjoy it on a mower too. The greaseable cast iron spindles with roller bearings on the TC II seem like they will last forever in my application. But it also seems like the aluminum sealed spindles with ball bearings will also be good enough to last forever for me. Certainly the Velocity 2 deck is better on the TC II but, once again, the deck on the Patriot (Advantage deck?) will be good enough for me. And while I'm sure the seat on the TC II is better, the seat on the Patriot was still good on my test ride. I expect the extra speed of the TC II would also be nice...but once again, it's all about price vs. features. I did notice that Scag has the STCII-52V-22FX listed as a "Promotional Model" but they don't say what that means in terms of discount versus their normal list price.
Right now I'l still leaning towards the Patriot, but I don't disagree that the TC II has a lot of desired upgrades. I guess we'll see what I end up with in 17 days when I go to buy my mower. :smile:
#44
F
ferrerlawncare
F
ferrerlawncare
Do you have a Spartan dealer nearby? I've had one for almost 3 years and it's comparable to all the top picks I've seen in this thread, better than most in my opinion. I'm selling mine and have to keep lowering the price just because people don't know what it can do. Look into it. If you're near TN come drive this one and take it home. I'll get a new one next year when I'm able to. Right now I have jobs that need a stand on mower, can't get it til this one sells.
#45
J
JPE
J
JPE
ferrerlawncare, there are some Spartan dealers close by, but I'm going to stick with a Scag. No need to open up that can of worms again. :smile: I can compare brands until I'm blue in the face and never buy a mower.
#46
J
JPE
J
JPE
I noticed the 52" TC II with Kawasaki is listed as a "National Promo Model" on Scag's website: https://scag.com/national_promotions.html
Are the promo models really "specially priced"? And if so, how much less is the special pricing than the normal pricing?
Are the promo models really "specially priced"? And if so, how much less is the special pricing than the normal pricing?
#47
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Darryl G
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Darryl G
JPE - I don't have direct experience with Scag mowers other than their 1980s walk-behinds, but I don't think you can't go wrong with either the Patriot or the TC. The Patriot will easy do what you want it too for many years as far as mowing the lawn. Yes the TC will probably do it a bit better and faster. With that aside, if you'll be doing any sort of "rough duty" work with it such as towing heavy carts or trailers, pulling aerators, sweepers or dethatchers, infrequent mowing of overgrown and/or rough areas, your needs would probably be served best by a TC. I wouldn't recommend using the Patriot as a tractor basically.
#48
J
JPE
Darryl. I hadn’t mentioned it before, but pulling a cart was definitely one of the things I intended to use the mower for. Basically hauling plants, dirt and mulch for the 10’ x 20’ garden - along with fertilizer spreading and aerating.
J
JPE
JPE - I don't have direct experience with Scag mowers other than their 1980s walk-behinds, but I don't think you can't go wrong with either the Patriot or the TC. The Patriot will easy do what you want it too for many years as far as mowing the lawn. Yes the TC will probably do it a bit better and faster. With that aside, if you'll be doing any sort of "rough duty" work with it such as towing heavy carts or trailers, pulling aerators, sweepers or dethatchers, infrequent mowing of overgrown and/or rough areas, your needs would probably be served best by a TC. I wouldn't recommend using the Patriot as a tractor basically.
Darryl. I hadn’t mentioned it before, but pulling a cart was definitely one of the things I intended to use the mower for. Basically hauling plants, dirt and mulch for the 10’ x 20’ garden - along with fertilizer spreading and aerating.
#50
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Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
250 pound towing limit on all Scag ZTRs. These machine are not made to tow heavy loads as the hydrostatic drives are designed for low torque higher speeds.
#51
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JPE
Yep, I’m certainly not intending to try and load rocks or other heavy items. Do you still think he TC II would be better than the Patriot in that regard?
So if I tow less than the 250 pound limit and I don’t do it too frequently, is there any advantage to the heavier duty hydros/pumps on the TC II vs. the Patriot?
J
JPE
Yeah garden cart should be fine within reasonable limits.
Yep, I’m certainly not intending to try and load rocks or other heavy items. Do you still think he TC II would be better than the Patriot in that regard?
250 pound towing limit on all Scag ZTRs. These machine are not made to tow heavy loads as the hydrostatic drives are designed for low torque higher speeds.
So if I tow less than the 250 pound limit and I don’t do it too frequently, is there any advantage to the heavier duty hydros/pumps on the TC II vs. the Patriot?
#52
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cruzenmike
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cruzenmike
If you plan to pull a plug aerator with a zero turn, you are setting yourself up for failure; literally a hydrostatic failure. An aerator is classified as a "ground-engaging" attachment in which most if not ALL zero turns are NOT rated for. As for the cart, about 150 lbs should be the max. None of this takes into account any type of terrain. If you pull a 100 lb cart up a short 10 degree incline it could be like pulling 500 lbs on flat land (I don't know the math but I hope you get what I am saying). It is for this reason that most of the zero turns out there do not have a hitch. Those that do, it's a mistake. Zero Turns are lawn cutting machines only and should be treated as such!
#53
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Darryl G
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Darryl G
For yard duty I think you'll be fine with the Patriot. For farm duty I think you'd be asking for trouble. That's what I was trying to say.
#54
J
JPE
Gotcha, thanks.
But really any ZTR is asking for trouble doing farm duty. A tractor's the right machine for that job. So I really shouldn't consider that an advantage of the TC II.
J
JPE
If you plan to pull a plug aerator with a zero turn, you are setting yourself up for failure; literally a hydrostatic failure. An aerator is classified as a "ground-engaging" attachment in which most if not ALL zero turns are NOT rated for. As for the cart, about 150 lbs should be the max. None of this takes into account any type of terrain. If you pull a 100 lb cart up a short 10 degree incline it could be like pulling 500 lbs on flat land (I don't know the math but I hope you get what I am saying). It is for this reason that most of the zero turns out there do not have a hitch. Those that do, it's a mistake. Zero Turns are lawn cutting machines only and should be treated as such!
Gotcha, thanks.
For yard duty I think you'll be fine with the Patriot. For farm duty I think you'd be asking for trouble. That's what I was trying to say.
But really any ZTR is asking for trouble doing farm duty. A tractor's the right machine for that job. So I really shouldn't consider that an advantage of the TC II.
#55
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Darryl G
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Darryl G
Blah. 1900 hours on my Lazer Z HP with no hydro issues. That's with one oil and filter change at 500 hours. It's pulled a 4 foot plug aerator weighted down with rocks for days at a time, dragged heavy tarps full of debris, dragged roped-up brush piles, bulldozed mountains of leaves and pulled plenty of mulch in a dump cart. And it doesn't even have hydro cooling fans. HG 10cc pumps and Parker/Ross wheel motors. Sorry but I do not think hydros are that fragile.If you plan to pull a plug aerator with a zero turn, you are setting yourself up for failure; literally a hydrostatic failure. An aerator is classified as a "ground-engaging" attachment in which most if not ALL zero turns are NOT rated for. As for the cart, about 150 lbs should be the max. None of this takes into account any type of terrain. If you pull a 100 lb cart up a short 10 degree incline it could be like pulling 500 lbs on flat land (I don't know the math but I hope you get what I am saying). It is for this reason that most of the zero turns out there do not have a hitch. Those that do, it's a mistake. Zero Turns are lawn cutting machines only and should be treated as such!
#56
C
cruzenmike
I guess it would all depend on the durability of separate pumps and motors vs integrated ones. It very well could be that the HG 3100's or 3400's can handle more than what's in your machine. But the question becomes, does your single experience warrant recommending to a perspective buyer, purchasing a machine to use for things to which A) it is not intended and B) the manufacturer will not warranty when it fails?
Hey, we're all here to help, but nobody should offer up advise on anyone doing anything that is unsafe or is outside of the manufacturer's recommendations!!
C
cruzenmike
Blah. 1900 hours on my Lazer Z HP with no hydro issues. That's with one oil and filter change at 500 hours. It's pulled a 4 foot plug aerator weighted down with rocks for days at a time, dragged heavy tarps full of debris, dragged roped-up brush piles, bulldozed mountains of leaves and pulled plenty of mulch in a dump cart. And it doesn't even have hydro cooling fans. HG 10cc pumps and Parker/Ross wheel motors. Sorry but I do not think hydros are that fragile.
I guess it would all depend on the durability of separate pumps and motors vs integrated ones. It very well could be that the HG 3100's or 3400's can handle more than what's in your machine. But the question becomes, does your single experience warrant recommending to a perspective buyer, purchasing a machine to use for things to which A) it is not intended and B) the manufacturer will not warranty when it fails?
Hey, we're all here to help, but nobody should offer up advise on anyone doing anything that is unsafe or is outside of the manufacturer's recommendations!!
#57
D
Darryl G
Exactly Mike. That's why I wanted to make sure he was planning to just use it for light duty work. :smile:
People put plow blades, snowblowers, rotary brooms, tow-behind leaf collection systems and other implements on Z mowers all the time with good results. I've only got a JRCO front tine-rake detchatcher for mine, but prefer it on my walk behind. But saying that Z mowers are only designed for mowing is misleading IMO. No it's not a garden tractor or compact utility tractor, but you can use accessories with Z mowers without issues, within reason. Mower manufacturers sell them specifically for their machines! You just have to use your head and know the difference between use and abuse.
Edit: Check this out. This machine is factory equipped with a 5 foot snow blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcBOGGIKX8
Check out Dixie Chopper, Grasshopper and Walker too. They ALL SELL FACTORY GROUND-ENGAGING EQUIPMENT FOR THEIR HYDRO ZERO-TURN MOWERS. I think my advice is sound...
D
Darryl G
I guess it would all depend on the durability of separate pumps and motors vs integrated ones. It very well could be that the HG 3100's or 3400's can handle more than what's in your machine. But the question becomes, does your single experience warrant recommending to a perspective buyer, purchasing a machine to use for things to which A) it is not intended and B) the manufacturer will not warranty when it fails?
Hey, we're all here to help, but nobody should offer up advise on anyone doing anything that is unsafe or is outside of the manufacturer's recommendations!!
Exactly Mike. That's why I wanted to make sure he was planning to just use it for light duty work. :smile:
People put plow blades, snowblowers, rotary brooms, tow-behind leaf collection systems and other implements on Z mowers all the time with good results. I've only got a JRCO front tine-rake detchatcher for mine, but prefer it on my walk behind. But saying that Z mowers are only designed for mowing is misleading IMO. No it's not a garden tractor or compact utility tractor, but you can use accessories with Z mowers without issues, within reason. Mower manufacturers sell them specifically for their machines! You just have to use your head and know the difference between use and abuse.
Edit: Check this out. This machine is factory equipped with a 5 foot snow blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcBOGGIKX8
Check out Dixie Chopper, Grasshopper and Walker too. They ALL SELL FACTORY GROUND-ENGAGING EQUIPMENT FOR THEIR HYDRO ZERO-TURN MOWERS. I think my advice is sound...
#58
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cruzenmike
As with all machines it's got to be the right one for what you're doing.
C
cruzenmike
Exactly Mike. That's why I wanted to make sure he was planning to just use it for light duty work. :smile:
People put plow blades, snowblowers, rotary brooms, tow-behind leaf collection systems and other implements on Z mowers all the time with good results. I've only got a JRCO front tine-rake detchatcher for mine, but prefer it on my walk behind. But saying that Z mowers are only designed for mowing is misleading IMO. No it's not a garden tractor or compact utility tractor, but you can use accessories with Z mowers without issues, within reason. Mower manufacturers sell them specifically for their machines! You just have to use your head and know the difference between use and abuse.
Edit: Check this out. This machine is factory equipped with a 5 foot snow blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcBOGGIKX8
Check out Dixie Chopper, Grasshopper and Walker too. They ALL SELL FACTORY GROUND-ENGAGING EQUIPMENT FOR THEIR HYDRO ZERO-TURN MOWERS. I think my advice is sound...
As with all machines it's got to be the right one for what you're doing.
#59
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Darryl G
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Darryl G
Agreed, and that's why I recommended that he go with the commercial TC II if his machine was going to be used for "farm duty".As with all machines it's got to be the right one for what you're doing.
#60
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
The TC II has a 250 pound towing limit as do most or all Scag ZTRs. It really is a matter of how ZTRs steer and stop more than the gross weight of the towed load. When traction of either rear tire is lost, what happens to the towed load? ZTRs have a strong tendency to slide sideways as there is no control of the front wheels. ZTRs can slide forward down hills even with good traction of the rear tires and this is why many of us ZTR operators will back the machine down the hill and mow up, it takes more time but easier than going into the street, a wall or the woods.:confused2:
I have a JRCO double row tine de-thatcher attachment for my Tiger Cub with collection system, super performing attachment when coupled with a collection system.
I have a JRCO double row tine de-thatcher attachment for my Tiger Cub with collection system, super performing attachment when coupled with a collection system.
#61
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JPE
J
JPE
Thanks for all the comments on towing and attachments. From the high corner of my lot to the low corner of my lot is a 2.75% grade. Apart from the drainage ditch parallel to the road there just isn’t much in the way of up or down in the land. I figure as long as I’m using good equipment and staying within the limits set by Scag I should be OK. Having said that, I’ve seen more than a few videos of people that have torn the hitch mounting area of their ZTR. And sadly their usual comment is to “beef up the read bumper area where the hitch mounts”. :thumbdown: If they’re pulling too much of a load for the machine their answer shouldn’t be to try and mount. I assume the engineers that design these ZTRs would make that hitch mounting area the weak link so that it fails before the hydros fail or the mower slides into a copse of trees or flips over. But even so extended time near the limit isn’t good either.
#62
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JPE
J
JPE
Thanks for all the advice. I went by the closer dealer today at lunch - liked them a lot. I talked to the mechanic and then the owner. Turns out they just had a 2018 TC II with 180 hours on it traded in by a commercial mower who trades in every year. I test rode it - started and rode perfectly and the deck was in great shape. I won't have a two-toned seat, but for less than the price of a new Patriot I get a 1 year old TC II. :biggrin: They're going to change the oil, grease it, and put on new blades this afternoon. I'll post some pictures later this week when it's delivered. Once again, thanks for all the help and advice! :thumbsup:
#63
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JPE
J
JPE
Just got it delivered! I can't wait to get out there with it and get the lawn mowed - the lawn doesn't really need it but it just seems like the thing to do. :laughing:
#65
J
JPE
I mowed the back acre and it was sweet! Fast, comfy, and did a fine job even if most of the grass wasn't very tall yet. And using the PB-580 to blow it off after I was done was quick and easy - thanks for the advice to get a backpack blower.
J
JPE
Congratulations. It looks sweet !
I mowed the back acre and it was sweet! Fast, comfy, and did a fine job even if most of the grass wasn't very tall yet. And using the PB-580 to blow it off after I was done was quick and easy - thanks for the advice to get a backpack blower.
#66
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Darryl G
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Darryl G
Glad to hear.
The PB 580 is a good choice for a homeowner. I've run side-by-side with one and it gets the job done. Good balance of air flow and MPH and not too annoying to listen too. Never tried one on but Echo does a good job with comfort and ergonomics in general.
Did you see the new Echo PB8010 blower? I picked one up last fall and it's amazingly powerful! About twice the air volume as yours. I've got 110 hours on it already (I added an hour meter).
The PB 580 is a good choice for a homeowner. I've run side-by-side with one and it gets the job done. Good balance of air flow and MPH and not too annoying to listen too. Never tried one on but Echo does a good job with comfort and ergonomics in general.
Did you see the new Echo PB8010 blower? I picked one up last fall and it's amazingly powerful! About twice the air volume as yours. I've got 110 hours on it already (I added an hour meter).
#67
J
JPE
J
JPE
Yeah, I saw the PB-8010 at the dealer when I bought the mower. It wasn’t as big or as heavy as I thought it would be but I just couldn’t justify the step up in price for the 580. Not that it isn’t worth the price difference, but for me as a homeowner the 580 does everything I need. And years ago I used to have a handheld gas blower so any backpack is a huge step up. I’ll be using the SRM-225 tomorrow morning to clean up the trees and fence but I expect it’ll be similar to the 580 vs 8010 - not as fast or powerful but certainly good enough for me to get the job done.
#68
J
JPE
J
JPE
I should have said the SRM-225 compared to one of the X series trimmers is like the 580 vs. the 8010.
#69
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Darryl G
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Darryl G
I actually wouldn't recommend the 8010 for a homeowner unless they have a large property with lots of trees, are already half deaf and are large and strong.
It's great for bulk debris but the air stream is so wide that it can scatter debris to areas you've already cleaned. Control issues basically. And it's loud as hell with a raspy tone, very thirsty, the tube is heavy/tiring to use and trying to keep up with it can be exhausting. You need to move quickly to use all of its power basically.
But for a pro like me the ability to move large amounts of leaves and sticks in all conditions, blast out under my truck and trailer quickly and to clear hard surfaces from 30 feet away is worth it. I've actually done cleanups in the rain with an umbella duct taped to mine, lol.
It's great for bulk debris but the air stream is so wide that it can scatter debris to areas you've already cleaned. Control issues basically. And it's loud as hell with a raspy tone, very thirsty, the tube is heavy/tiring to use and trying to keep up with it can be exhausting. You need to move quickly to use all of its power basically.
But for a pro like me the ability to move large amounts of leaves and sticks in all conditions, blast out under my truck and trailer quickly and to clear hard surfaces from 30 feet away is worth it. I've actually done cleanups in the rain with an umbella duct taped to mine, lol.
#70
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JMaldaner
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JMaldaner
Thanks to the OP for this thread! I've read all seven pages and found the discussion robust and very informative. I am in a similar situation, or will be in a couple of years after we pay off a Kubota tractor. In my situation, the lawn and garden shop where I have gotten excellent service on my current mower, although it is a brand they do not stock, is a Scag dealer. I was really hoping to be able to do business with this dealer when it was time to buy a new ZTR, and based on this thread it looks like I would be well-served with a Scag!