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Old Murry 14.5 Briggs.
#1
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
ill not start. I try bwlow to give you an isea of my steps
this is the data on it
12597 Briggs & Stratton
BS 14.5 hp
287707-0225-01
Murray
42910X92A
95334-18933
It was working great. I use it to pull a cart, no deck. I have had it about two months. I want to take care of it and the steering drove me crazy so I ordered parts to freshen it up. All parts like the axles bearings and such and it would not crank back up when I got done. I also got a key switch #92556, so I took that as an opportunity to replace it. I tested the old switch and nothing but the spring was going on it. key start and lights position had continuity, I tested the new switch and it was not a dud so I installed the new one. I tried to clean the inside of the harness plug and used a dot of die grease on each lug and plugged it in. still not a sound or whimper when turning the key.. After fixing the steering issues while the gas tank was removed and the gears removed, cleaned and greased I replaced the key switch.
Since I could not hear the solenoid click when key in start. I got the service manual on the engine and followed the solenoid test best I could. They say the part is a 3 pole #24285 but the one in my tractor has 4 poles of sorts. two on top of course. see photo D=spade terminal and on the side is a round one not mentioned in the test procedure. It has a round terminal and round connector wire that I think connects to the key ground switch by itself. I have to check that tomorrow. I still followed the instructions and the starter got a hit when i completed the circuit like in the drawing. I attached the test instructions with red is part #2
So how do I do this test with the solenoid in place? The round terminal marked in red is not accounted for in the instructions and when I did the test anyway using these instruction's and ignoring the red dot. it caused the starter to start. I remover my meter so it did not harm it.
I jumped my seat switch since no deck. The PTO switch is in place and is not depressed. The clutch switch I suspect is my problem if that will cause no power to anything. no head lights. but something happened when i completed that circuit with my meter just like the manual says. it was set for diode. The switch photo has the lug on the left edge is the one I think may be to the solenoid, all the other lugs fit in the harness plug.
Thanks if you can help me sort the solenoid test out.
this is the data on it
12597 Briggs & Stratton
BS 14.5 hp
287707-0225-01
Murray
42910X92A
95334-18933
It was working great. I use it to pull a cart, no deck. I have had it about two months. I want to take care of it and the steering drove me crazy so I ordered parts to freshen it up. All parts like the axles bearings and such and it would not crank back up when I got done. I also got a key switch #92556, so I took that as an opportunity to replace it. I tested the old switch and nothing but the spring was going on it. key start and lights position had continuity, I tested the new switch and it was not a dud so I installed the new one. I tried to clean the inside of the harness plug and used a dot of die grease on each lug and plugged it in. still not a sound or whimper when turning the key.. After fixing the steering issues while the gas tank was removed and the gears removed, cleaned and greased I replaced the key switch.
Since I could not hear the solenoid click when key in start. I got the service manual on the engine and followed the solenoid test best I could. They say the part is a 3 pole #24285 but the one in my tractor has 4 poles of sorts. two on top of course. see photo D=spade terminal and on the side is a round one not mentioned in the test procedure. It has a round terminal and round connector wire that I think connects to the key ground switch by itself. I have to check that tomorrow. I still followed the instructions and the starter got a hit when i completed the circuit like in the drawing. I attached the test instructions with red is part #2
So how do I do this test with the solenoid in place? The round terminal marked in red is not accounted for in the instructions and when I did the test anyway using these instruction's and ignoring the red dot. it caused the starter to start. I remover my meter so it did not harm it.
I jumped my seat switch since no deck. The PTO switch is in place and is not depressed. The clutch switch I suspect is my problem if that will cause no power to anything. no head lights. but something happened when i completed that circuit with my meter just like the manual says. it was set for diode. The switch photo has the lug on the left edge is the one I think may be to the solenoid, all the other lugs fit in the harness plug.
Thanks if you can help me sort the solenoid test out.
Attachments
#2
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I just checked that the switch you purchased is the correct one for your unit. Don’t know how many times people just buy a switch which looks the same. The difference between a 3 pole and 4 pole solenoid is that the extra small pole is an external ground, where the 3 pole is grounded internally. When switching from 3to 4 you need to add a ground wire. Try this testing procedure and reply back. Using your results we will be able to tell tell how to proceed.
Electrical* problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*
Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position q(you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).*
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).*
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
Electrical* problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*
Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position q(you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).*
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).*
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
#3
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
Thank you kindly. I will do this today.
I know this now now
7.5 fuse is fine
battery is new and charged.13.0 when I checked. lives on a trickle charger.
battery ground was fixed day I bought it. bought longer cable due to terminal slant on the on battery sanded paint off base
Both switches were tested
I mentioned I had jumped the seat switch because I suspect all the safety interlocks. i mentioned that above too. This task of being clear works both ways you ned to carefully reaf what i write in order to see what I am/have done.
I have the correct parts manual and the service manual so I do not guess.
The largest question I asked, you did not mention was how to test the solenoid with the difference in the manual instructions for a 3 pole but it actually is a live (wires on each terminal) 4 pole. I will take a photo of it. i posted the manual instructions to make it easy to understand what I was saying. I also mentioned what happened when you follow the instructions' on the test to the letter, you get no reading you get an attempted start.
will post back later with your results.
I know this now now
7.5 fuse is fine
battery is new and charged.13.0 when I checked. lives on a trickle charger.
battery ground was fixed day I bought it. bought longer cable due to terminal slant on the on battery sanded paint off base
Both switches were tested
I mentioned I had jumped the seat switch because I suspect all the safety interlocks. i mentioned that above too. This task of being clear works both ways you ned to carefully reaf what i write in order to see what I am/have done.
I have the correct parts manual and the service manual so I do not guess.
The largest question I asked, you did not mention was how to test the solenoid with the difference in the manual instructions for a 3 pole but it actually is a live (wires on each terminal) 4 pole. I will take a photo of it. i posted the manual instructions to make it easy to understand what I was saying. I also mentioned what happened when you follow the instructions' on the test to the letter, you get no reading you get an attempted start.
will post back later with your results.
#5
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
i am going now to perform those tests. here is a look at how the area we discussed looks
removed
removed
#7
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
I hooked my test light alligator clip to the battery. Touched the bottom round post with the probe on the test light and it kicked the starter. I was attempting step #3
#8
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
#4 I took my meter and clamped it to the solenoid post that does not have the positive battery wire attached then I took the negative wire and hooked it to the negative side of the battery I put meter on DC volts and went to my key switch on the lawn mower and put it in crank position and I got nothing, nothing in just on position. No reading change on meter.
I checked new switch on 3 positions when I installed it. Switch should not be problem. In fact I put old one on meter and it tested good as well. I swapped it back no change.
Power to starter has been verified when it turned when I was touching lower solenoid post on the bottom.
I checked new switch on 3 positions when I installed it. Switch should not be problem. In fact I put old one on meter and it tested good as well. I swapped it back no change.
Power to starter has been verified when it turned when I was touching lower solenoid post on the bottom.
#10
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Are you saying you have 12VDC on both small terminals of the solenoid when you turn the key to the start position?
#11
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
i not sure how to respond?
were you reading my post while doing something else? how does no reading turn into 12v? no reading=0 not 12v. I covered the run position and the start position in my post
were you reading my post while doing something else? how does no reading turn into 12v? no reading=0 not 12v. I covered the run position and the start position in my post
#12
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
Rivets instructions feel like a cut and paste. Can anyone else offer me any help. I have been doing a good job of making myself clear. So since I have jumped the safety switches and tested my key switch and have heard my starter function it is either the wiring or the solenoid
I can not tell whether the solenoid is bad so I went and bought a new one. a Briggs 5409K. I just have to figure out how to attach the round wire. I think if I use a solid piece of cooper wire and attach it to a spade terminal and then crimp the bare cooper wire it to the wring harness round terminal for the bottom of the original solenoid that might work to wire the harness up to the Briggs. then I can try again to start it.
I can not tell whether the solenoid is bad so I went and bought a new one. a Briggs 5409K. I just have to figure out how to attach the round wire. I think if I use a solid piece of cooper wire and attach it to a spade terminal and then crimp the bare cooper wire it to the wring harness round terminal for the bottom of the original solenoid that might work to wire the harness up to the Briggs. then I can try again to start it.
#13
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Ok, I’ll give this one more try, but I’m not to positive you will know what to do. If you want to question my ability or what I’m doing, you can do so, but realize I’ve worked on small engines for 50+ years and I think I do know a whole lot more about electrical troubleshooting than you do. The procedure I posted is one that two of us members developed to help DIY guys test electrical starting systems. It assumes the the individual has an understanding of basic electrical terms and how to use basic testing equipment. A test light is very, very seldom hooked into a circuit the way you described you did. If you are using a test light instead of a VOM to do these tests, the clamp should be connected to a good earth ground and the probe is then used to trace voltage. What you did was jumping the circuit between two points, bypassing the solenoid. You could do the same with any jump lead.
Now you say my procedure is just a cut and paste plagiarism, so I guess you really don’t know how to follow a systematic procedure. I guess you were doing something else and didn’t read this part of the procedure.
“Electrical* problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.”
That being said I wish you good luck in solving this problem without spending too much money on parts you don’t need and burning your bridges with other members of this forum. I will be following this thread, but I can’t help you because you can’t follow simple directions. Bye, Bye, Bye.
Now you say my procedure is just a cut and paste plagiarism, so I guess you really don’t know how to follow a systematic procedure. I guess you were doing something else and didn’t read this part of the procedure.
“Electrical* problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.”
That being said I wish you good luck in solving this problem without spending too much money on parts you don’t need and burning your bridges with other members of this forum. I will be following this thread, but I can’t help you because you can’t follow simple directions. Bye, Bye, Bye.
#14
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
Oh that's a shame. Cut and paste means that you tell everybody the same thing and you haven't even proofread what you told me. Lots of your advice was useless and confusing because it was useless.
I believe you told me that I needed to be careful and be clear when you weren't careful you didn't read what I wrote thoroughly. So that does not mean that I cannot follow directions? you're welcome to follow the thread you might learn something.
I believe you told me that I needed to be careful and be clear when you weren't careful you didn't read what I wrote thoroughly. So that does not mean that I cannot follow directions? you're welcome to follow the thread you might learn something.
#15
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
So the 15$ part is not worth anymore of my time and since the mower is old replacing the part is a good idea for myself. Before installing the new solenoid, I tested it just like I did the new key switch. You never know and that test will save time should it be a dud.
So to test the new solenoid I got my NOCO XL jump pack and clamped the black clamp to the install bracket on the solenoid to ground it and touched the red clamp to the lower pole on the solenoid and I got a big click. I set up my electrical tester for a capacitor test and put my red clamp back on the lower solenoid post and quickly checked the two top posts and it beeped and then quickly unhooked my positive jumper off the bracket. That simply quick test means I can use the new solenoid with confidence.
When I replaced the battery at the beginning of the season I freshened up my ground on the battery and I will do the same thing when I remove the old solenoid, ensuing it has a good ground mating surface. The base is the ground on a 3 pole solenoid. I have new safety switches on order and until they arrive I will keep those jumped. It should crank up after the new solenoid install. The wiring was not stretched or damaged so I doubt anything is wrong with that. The harness switch plug had plenty of dirt and such packed in the plug and I did my best to clean that up during the switch install so that hopefully will not be a problem
So to test the new solenoid I got my NOCO XL jump pack and clamped the black clamp to the install bracket on the solenoid to ground it and touched the red clamp to the lower pole on the solenoid and I got a big click. I set up my electrical tester for a capacitor test and put my red clamp back on the lower solenoid post and quickly checked the two top posts and it beeped and then quickly unhooked my positive jumper off the bracket. That simply quick test means I can use the new solenoid with confidence.
When I replaced the battery at the beginning of the season I freshened up my ground on the battery and I will do the same thing when I remove the old solenoid, ensuing it has a good ground mating surface. The base is the ground on a 3 pole solenoid. I have new safety switches on order and until they arrive I will keep those jumped. It should crank up after the new solenoid install. The wiring was not stretched or damaged so I doubt anything is wrong with that. The harness switch plug had plenty of dirt and such packed in the plug and I did my best to clean that up during the switch install so that hopefully will not be a problem
#16
S
slomo
slomo
S
slomo
Hold the phone tiger. Rivets is a WELL valued guy here on the forum. Even if he pasted, I would follow EVERY SINGLE WORD HE PASTED. I'll admit your responses were near proper English. I was having a tough time figuring out what you did myself. Oh and welcome to the forum.Oh that's a shame. Cut and paste means that you tell everybody the same thing and you haven't even proofread what you told me. Lots of your advice was useless and confusing because it was useless.
I believe you told me that I needed to be careful and be clear when you weren't careful you didn't read what I wrote thoroughly. So that does not mean that I cannot follow directions? you're welcome to follow the thread you might learn something.
slomo
#17
S
slomo
slomo
S
slomo
Capacitor test? Please explain. Do you mean continuity test? I'm lost.....So the 15$ part is not worth anymore of my time and since the mower is old replacing the part is a good idea for myself. Before installing the new solenoid, I tested it just like I did the new key switch. You never know and that test will save time should it be a dud.
So to test the new solenoid I got my NOCO XL jump pack and clamped the black clamp to the install bracket on the solenoid to ground it and touched the red clamp to the lower pole on the solenoid and I got a big click. I set up my electrical tester for a capacitor test and put my red clamp back on the lower solenoid post and quickly checked the two top posts and it beeped and then quickly unhooked my positive jumper off the bracket. That simply quick test means I can use the new solenoid with confidence.
When I replaced the battery at the beginning of the season I freshened up my ground on the battery and I will do the same thing when I remove the old solenoid, ensuing it has a good ground mating surface. The base is the ground on a 3 pole solenoid. I have new safety switches on order and until they arrive I will keep those jumped. It should crank up after the new solenoid install. The wiring was not stretched or damaged so I doubt anything is wrong with that. The harness switch plug had plenty of dirt and such packed in the plug and I did my best to clean that up during the switch install so that hopefully will not be a problem
slomo
#18
B
bertsmobile1
Typing out the same set of instruction 15 times a day is boreing & time consuming.
The advice was all good .
Nothing there was contradictory.
If I had of read your post before Rivets did then you would have gotten my cut & paste response for failure to crank .
Nothing special about you , your mower or any body elses for that matter.
A failure to crank is a failure to crank and unless personally verified by me everything & every one is suspect.
I am sorry to hear you have a fatal disease and can not afford to spend 20 seconds of what little time you have left on the planet to read some FACTS that are not 100% pertanent to your mower.
Good luck in your afterlife .
B
bertsmobile1
We all do it.Oh that's a shame. Cut and paste means that you tell everybody the same thing and you haven't even proofread what you told me. Lots of your advice was useless and confusing because it was useless.
I believe you told me that I needed to be careful and be clear when you weren't careful you didn't read what I wrote thoroughly. So that does not mean that I cannot follow directions? you're welcome to follow the thread you might learn something.
Typing out the same set of instruction 15 times a day is boreing & time consuming.
The advice was all good .
Nothing there was contradictory.
If I had of read your post before Rivets did then you would have gotten my cut & paste response for failure to crank .
Nothing special about you , your mower or any body elses for that matter.
A failure to crank is a failure to crank and unless personally verified by me everything & every one is suspect.
I am sorry to hear you have a fatal disease and can not afford to spend 20 seconds of what little time you have left on the planet to read some FACTS that are not 100% pertanent to your mower.
Good luck in your afterlife .
#19
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I’m really sorry if my English and grammar is not proper for this forum. It was never one of my strong suits and when you learn things by doing, not reading, most people understand that. I didn’t see in the forum rules that using proper English and grammar was required. Steelmon are you willing to have me forward my reply’s to you for a grammar check, before posting, I would be willing to do that. I’m willing to learn something new everyday, as I know electrical troubleshooting, but am very poor at PROPERLY get my point across with good English. Let me know if you want to be chief of the grammar police squad. PS: This was not cut and pasted, I typed it myself.
#20
S
stihlman
S
stihlman
I got it done. Not sure which safety switch it was and I am not going to take time to figure that out. I have them ordered. My ignition system is in better shape now and it was worth the effort. That is a well made little tractor.
Jumping each safety switch early on allowed me to exclude the main electrical components as the source of trouble. I can't be certain but I think the chassis ground might have been intermittent. All grounds are now improved so maybe it might survive another decade.
Jumping each safety switch early on allowed me to exclude the main electrical components as the source of trouble. I can't be certain but I think the chassis ground might have been intermittent. All grounds are now improved so maybe it might survive another decade.
#21
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Next time you go to a auto parts or electronics store, get a can of "Liquid Electrical Tape "
The paint over the chassis connection on a hot day in the afternoon.
Do the same with the battery terminals and that will keep the moisture out
The paint over the chassis connection on a hot day in the afternoon.
Do the same with the battery terminals and that will keep the moisture out
#22
M
mmoffitt
M
mmoffitt
I'm in suspense here..like watching a tennis match or an old Perry Mason episode when he is closing in on the real murderer!
REPORT!
REPORT!