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Folks,
Back in about 1996 I inherited my father’s 1440 Cub rider with mower deck and blower.
This machine is built like a tank, and has been a real help as a mowing backup and driveway cleaner in the winter.
Over the years I’ve replaced the PTO, alternator and two years ago the starter. Last week it was running like new.
This am I went out to blow out the driveway and it wouldn’t crank. The PTO will engage, everything seems normal, the battery is new. The main fuse is fine.
But, the starter won’t kick in. I tried jumping the solenoid and all I got was sparks, so it would seem there is a short somewhere?
Any suggestions aren’t more than welcome. Could the “new” starter be bad??

Thanks,
Jack

Give this procedure a try to locate your problem, which to me sounds like a bad solenoid or starter. Let us know what you find.


Electrical* problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.

Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.

First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*

Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*

Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*

Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position q(you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).*

Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).*

Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.

After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.

Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.

Good stuff from Rivets.
One of the first things i do when i have a no crank issue is check the battery and then if it has a separate atart relay i simply take a car jumper cable and jump the 2 large terminals on the relay. If engine cranks over there is a problem with either the relay or wiring associated with the low current start circuit. If it does not crank either high current cable connections or starter. If starter has solenoid on starter jump across the 2 large terminals on solenoid. Take less than a minute to figure out if you have a high current or low current problem. High current problem includes battery to engine ground and battery to relay and relay to starter connection and starter. Low current side includes ignition switch, start inhibit switches, possible inhibit relays, start relay and wiring.

Folks,
The battery is excellent. It’s almost new and kept on a minder.
What concerns me is that I jumped the two main positive terminals on the solenoid with a screw driver, like we used to do on cars back in the day. It pr@ctically melted the screwdriver. Short somewhere?
I was going to isolate the starter and try attaching a separate battery to it, to see if it would turn. Thoughts?

Remove the starter and see if you can take a screwdriver and turn the starter gear and rotate the starter armature. If not locked up take a pair of jumper cables and battery neg to the frame and touch the battery pos cable to the starter terminal. If starter doesn't spin bad starter. Sparks and no spin bad starter. Spins good starter.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Thanks for the reply.
I’ll give it a shot and let you know.

I sometimes take a starter (that's off the mower), attached the jumper cables to it. When it spins, I put the gear into a piece of soft wood with some force. Something like a 2X4 pine. That tells me if the starter is not only good or bad. But also if it's weak.
I'm thinking you have a bad starter, if you've jumped the solenoid and still not getting anything.

I removed the starter yesterday and tried an external battery. Sparks everywhere.
So, I ordered an OEM replacement.
The current item was obtained from a local (and highly regarded) mower repair shop.
I never looked at the labeling when I installed it, but now I see that it probably should have included a fortune cookie.
Stay tuned?

Coelacanth64 said:

I removed the starter yesterday and tried an external battery. Sparks everywhere.
So, I ordered an OEM replacement.
The current item was obtained from a local (and highly regarded) mower repair shop.
I never looked at the labeling when I installed it, but now I see that it probably should have included a fortune cookie.
Stay tuned?

Click to expand...

What do you mean by "sparks everywhere?

Sorry. Work got in the way.
As of today, new starter and solenoid. If I jump the solenoid the starter will crank the engine.
But, the starter will not engage using the key. If I turn the key the oil light will come on, the headlights work, and the PTO will click on and off.
If I turn the key to the start position the dash light comes on indicating that the brake pedal needs to be depressed. If I depress the pedal the light goes off, but the starter does not engage If I turn the key to the start position.
Could the switch be the culprit? Should I try jumping the leads from the switch to the battery end of the solenoid?

Coelacanth64 said:

Sorry. Work got in the way.
As of today, new starter and solenoid. If I jump the solenoid the starter will crank the engine.
But, the starter will not engage using the key. If I turn the key the oil light will come on, the headlights work, and the PTO will click on and off.
If I turn the key to the start position the dash light comes on indicating that the brake pedal needs to be depressed. If I depress the pedal the light goes off, but the starter does not engage If I turn the key to the start position.
Could the switch be the culprit? Should I try jumping the leads from the switch to the battery end of the solenoid?

Click to expand...

You absolutely checked the fuse, right? If you can't see a broken link, check it with a meter anyways. Sometimes they break on the sides, and not the middle, where you can't actually see the break. I've spent 4 hours on a mower on day trying to figure out why I was not getting juice to the starter. Checked the fuse a few times before I finally broke down and checked it with the meter.

Have you even bothered to read and go through the procedure I posted. If you would have, instead of throwing parts at it, all of us would have a better idea of what is going on.

So when you bypass the solenoid it cranks & starts.
Well the next thing to check would be the solenoid and you do that by jumping the trigger wires
If that works then you check the trigger wires for 12V on one side & ground on the other.
I will not go through my routine as Rivits has already posted his and as all roads lead to Rome it matters not which method you use.
Otherwise I will give you the phone number of my parts supplier cause I get 10% off the top on all of the unnecessary parts you buy that didn't fix your problem.

Sorry, Rivets....yes.
1.) fuse was fine, but I put a new one in anyway
2.) power from the battery to the solenoid is as it should be, about 12.5v
3.) there is no power to the small positive lead on the solenoid with brake depressed and key turned to start position
4.) there is no power to the starter side of the solenoid with pedal depressed and key turned to start, likewise the starter itself
5.) seat safety switch was disabled about 20 years ago
6.) old starter would not turn, but I’m going to tear it down to see why
7.) new starter turns and cranked the engine normally when I jumped the main positive leads on the old solenoid

I’m attaching a picture of the solenoid I just installed.
Hey, the old one came with the mower. Preventive maintenance?

Oh, and I cleaned and abraded every electrical contact and surface I could find.

No power to the small terminal on the solenoid means you must backtrack that red wire back to the key switch. Probably goes through three or four safety switches and PTO switch. If you provide the model and serial numbers we might find you a wiring diagram.

You really need to find the proper wiring diagram for your engine and start st the ignition switch and see if you have battery voltage from the S terminal to ground when you turn the key to the start position. If so you need to wotk your way through the start inhibit switches till you find out where you are losing voltage. Most mowers have at least a seat, brake and PTO switches but can be more complicated. If you don't have a wiring diagram at each of those switches you should get battery voltage on 2 of the terminals when you turn the key to the start position. If you don't either switch is in the wrong state or bad switch. This is with the switches connected and back probing the connectors.

Who are you talking to?

O.K., if the ignition switch is in the run position and I flip the PTO switch I can hear the PTO engage and disengage, the seat switch is bypassed. I have not checked the brake switch, but if I depress the pedal the warning light about depressing the pedal in order to start goes off.
is there any easy way to test the ignition switch itself?

Factory number: 142-633-100
Serial number: 0000829137

B= battery should be battery voltage.
S =start should connect to B with the key in the start position
Numbers are very small & cast into the back of the switch.

The terminals that engage the PTO clutch are not the same ones that complete the circuit to the starter
So you see we are going full circle back to Rivets original listructions.

Yes, I understand.
Is there something in Rivets original checklist that I didn’t adequately answer?

So, if I connect switch tab B to S, and the key is in the Start position, the starter should spin and the mower should start?

Here is what I have.....

Your reply was what we needed, but you must do the testing with a test light or VOM. Most PTO switches contain two individual switches, one to engage the clutch and a second safety switch to prevent the engine from starting when the clutch is engaged. You must test each switch and connecting wire individually. An assistant will definitely be helpful, as you will start at the key switch B Terminal, then S terminal and then tracing each wire and switch down to the solenoid. You a looking for a lose of 12 V, by either a bad switch or bad wire. This can easily take an hour to do so, even with help, depending on the size of the unit I’ve spent entire days solving electrical problems. What Bert meant is that you are now back to where we started, but with new parts installed and problem not solved. The #1 rule in solving electrical problems is “ NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING”, which you failed to do, when you started switching out parts after making an assumption. Review numbers 1-4 in the procedure I posted earlier before starting. We’ve all done this in the past and have learned the hard way, just like you are at this point, to stick to the steps or it will cost you time and money.

I don't think he is listening or understanding what needs to be done. That why I deleted the posts that I did that had the wiring diagram and other info. I don't think he would even to follow the diagram layout.

It is about as bad as the guy that wired up the lights on Farmall Super M here. I didn't think anyone could mess up connecting up two wires but he did.

So I am going back to not listening myself.

We’ll get there, this will be just like solving an electrical problem, slow, steady and when things don’t make sense start over.

Rivets, first I want to thank you, Bert, Hammer and PT for the assistance. I’ve utilized this forum several times before with issues related to this mower and every time the problem has been solved. Obviously, I don’t do this for a living. But, I don’t mind learning, either.
To answer your suggestion, I’m testing everything with a multimeter. And, I’ll proceed as your directions indicate.
But, first I need to get back to the Farmall and finish their wiring.

Farmall is easier to work on, because you can get at 95% of what you want.

No,
If you jump B to S and all of the safetys are working, the engine will spin
However IF IT HAS A FUEL SOLENOID it will not start because there will be no power to the fuel solenoid

Coelacanth64 said:

Folks,
The battery is excellent. It’s almost new and kept on a minder.
What concerns me is that I jumped the two main positive terminals on the solenoid with a screw driver, like we used to do on cars back in the day. It pr@ctically melted the screwdriver. Short somewhere?
I was going to isolate the starter and try attaching a separate battery to it, to see if it would turn. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Stop & have a little think .
I can weld with a current of 40 amps
the starter draws around 200
So yes leave the screwdriver on there for long enough and you will melt it.

So now you pull the magneto wire of the magneto ( just to be safe )
and make a patch lead to jump between the B & S .
If the engine cranks then you switch is duff.
If it does not then the PTO or brake switch is duff.
And this includes th wires between then as it is not a new machine and what happns is copper wire work hardens from the vibrations then breaks right on the crimp,

Bert/Rivets,
Thanks.
Question....in the image I attached I can clearly see S, but I don’t see B? Or, am I mistaken? Can you tell me what the other letters represent?
Next, I need a clarification. This am I plugged the ignition switch back in. I then turned the key to the run position. The lights work, and the PTO clicks enabled/disabled. If I turn the switch to start the brake pedal light comes on, but if I depress the pedal the light goes off. Would that happen if the switch was bad?
Oh, and....yeah, I get the whole screwdriver across the terminals thing. I’m learning. Slow, but.....here’s hoping.

Come on...I just can't believe you are that out of it Coelacanth64. Bert and Rivets both are instructing you on exactly what to do and what is possibly wrong.

Maybe Bert and/or Rivets can get it through to you that the brake switch is a two pole switch so yes it can be bad as can the PTO switch with it being also a two pole switch, and of course possible bad wiring between. You must trace the wiring and do the electrical tests.

Plus somebody either got the wrong keyswitch to start with or it is mis-stamped even though it is connecting correctly on the start circuit as indicated by the brake light. Only an ohm out will tell if it is just mislabeled or the wrong switch.

SKU 725-3163 superseded to 925-3163.

According to the diagram for the unit you provided us with numbers for, you have the wrong switch. The switch you should have is part number 925-3163. If I am correct, this would be the cause of your problems. If you punch in this number into goggle, you will see that the terminal identification is different. Bert, would you check my conclusion?
B= Battery
M= Magneto
S= Start
G=Ground
A=Accessories
L=Lights

O.K., and so this is why I don’t do Farcebook, or Instacram, or Snapcrap. Next somebody will be body shaming, or picking on my ethnicity.
As a refresher,....I don’t do this for a living. I have no idea what a two pole switch is, but I’m SAS gonna find out.
Likewise, as to the switch. To the best of my knowledge this switch has never been replaced. But, my father might have needed to back in the ‘90’s. Regardless, it has worked fine for me for over 20 years.

No matter. I want to thank everyone for their help.
Did I start out by trying to guesstimate the cause and then throw parts at it? Yep. Why? Because I was hoping for a quick fix. Between work, taking care of my 83 year old mother in law with dementia, and trying to take the load off my four shot a day diabetic wife, yes...I was hoping this would go easy. Nope.
So, I’m going to use all of your information and see what results. I’ll take it from here.

But, you might want to keep an eye on the obits section of the local newspaper.

Now I do know how it is to take care of someone with dementia. It is a 24/7 job in itself or at it was for me. NO help from my brother at all. I had to give up on working during the time as all the help I had was the nurse's aid 3x a week. My thinking during that time wasn't very clear either. Total exhaustion with maybe 2 hours of sleep per day. It took me over a year to recoup after my mother's death.

I not trying to pick on you but you do need to try to follow instructions given if possible.

As what is a 2 pole switch. A double pole switch is referred as a double pole, single throw switch. It's just the combination of two SPST switches that are controlled simultaneously by one mechanism. It can also be a double throw switch combination or as in your PTO switch a double throw with a center position. The brake switch is one Normally Open switch and one Normally Closed switch. Now the PTO is a little more complicated as has a center position that is active ON to operate the PTO clutch.

Anyway I leaving the forum as I need to for my sake.

Using the information in posts # 30 & # 31.
Your machine is quite old any way older than anything I can cross refference
Make sure you know which terminal is M & G because if you accidentially send voltage down the M wire you will fry the chip in the magneto.
Once you are sure then test the key for the connections as per the chart previously posted
Bridge the B & S terminals at the plug with a short wire with a spade terminal at both ends
Then go to the PTO switch.
With the B & S bridged 2 wires at PTO switch will have 12V on them.
If not then the wire from the ignition switch & the PTO switch is broken .
If you do have 12V at 2 terminals on the PTO switch work out which is the clutch & which is the cranking circuit.
Pull the plug off the the PTO switch and jump the cranking circuit wires ( usually they will be coloured )
If the engine now cranks then the PTO switch is duff.
If not go down to the brake switch.
Again one wire should have 12V on it and when depressed it should pass the 12 to the terminal opposite it ( flat to flat not edge to edge ).
If yes then make another little jumper lead and check there is 12 V both sides.
You now need to follow that 12V to find the break in the wire.
This assumes that CC does not use a relay.

Folks,
The return of the village idiot.
I just came in, did not see the most recent replies prior. Sorry.
Thank you for the wiring schematic and all the directions.
As soon as I get my MIL’s dryer bearing replaced I’ll study what you sent.
Hopefully within the hour.

I do believe I’ve found my ignition switch, however.
Identical labeling and post positioning.
John Deere?



If so, I have no idea why?

But,....I have the switch and harness out of the dash to make it a one person job. I plugged the switch back in to the harness, turned the switch to the run position, and using the multimeter leads I contacted B to S1. Blew the fuse. The Brake pedal is depressed, brake switch warning light off. Replaced the fuse. Connected B to S2. Nothing. However, with the switch in the run position and the brake pedal down I hear a random clicking sound.

Feel free to express consternation.

The Stens 430-128 is not the same switch as Stens 430-404

AVB said:

The Stens 430-128 is not the same switch as Stens 430-404
View attachment 50779

Click to expand...

Thank you, sir.
I‘ll try that when I get home.

AVB said:

Anyway I leaving the forum as I need to for my sake.

Click to expand...

whoa, wait, why??????

Follow up. Maybe the solution?
I figured I’d look at the brake switch.
Discovered that the brake switch lever had partially broken from its mount. It wasn’t completely depressing the switch.
But, like the ignition switch, this part is very different physically from the OEM replacement.
Oh, well....maybe I’ll just hang the switch on the hood??

Addendum: The brake switch lever was attached to the brake shaft using a saddle mount with a bolt through the side facing the driver. The lever had broken about 3/4 through from the mount. Using a common Craftsman open ended wrench and PB Blaster I tried to remove the bolt. No excessive torque was applied. Bolt head sheared off. So much for the lever.
So, I removed the brake switch and its bracket and then removed the switch from the bracket. Pushing the switch manually and turning the key to start, the motor started normally. Good.
I considered replacing the switch lever. But, when I looked up the part the item in the schematic was different in construction and mounting method from what I have. O.K, my mower is a FrankenCadet. John Deere ignition switch? Brake switch lever from a Yugo??

Anyhow, I cut a notch in the body panel and move the switch outboard. Starts and runs like a charm now, but I guess I ruined any chance at collector value?? (Tongue firmly in cheek)



Regardless, I want to again thank everybody for their assistance with this, and their patience with me.
This forum is a god send.
We expect heavy snow for the next two days. This was completed just in time!