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New Coil No spark

#1

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

My John Deere F510 riding mower will not spark. Has new plug , new OEM coil, new plug boot. Sanded magnet front and back. Gap is set to .012 on coil. Disconnected kill wire. Grounding plug firmly. Flywheel spins fast. Still no spark. What else could it possibly be?


#2

R

Rivets

First check to see if you mounted the coil upside down. Second set the air gap to .010”. If that fails post all engine numbers.


#3

J

jd 300

Check the spark igniter ignition module it's a little square chip that fires the coil. This is on a john deere kaw engine next to the starter. Then check Amazon they are a lot cheaper then john deere.


#4

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

I d
jd 300 said:
Check the spark igniter ignition module it's a little square chip that fires the coil. This is on a john deere kaw engine next to the starter. Then check Amazon they are a lot cheaper then john deere.
Click to expand...
i don’t see anything that looks like a little small chip next to the starter. This mower is 27 years old and it may not have one. There is a clylinder looking module next to the starter that connects the large red wire to the battery.


#5

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

Rivets said:
First check to see if you mounted the coil upside down. Second set the air gap to .010”. If that fails post all engine numbers.
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t be able to mount the coil upside down and have it still connect to the kill wire and spark plug. However I tried it upside down just to check to see if that might work and it did not. Set air gap to .010. Did not help. This is a kawa PA 420A-BS02. E/No pa 420A009701.


#6

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp said:
I d

i don’t see anything that looks like a little small chip next to the starter. This mower is 27 years old and it may not have one. There is a clylinder looking module next to the starter that connects the large red wire to the battery.
Click to expand...
Ok. I guess there is a igniter ignition module. They have one for sale. on Amazon for $80.00. This seems to connect to the kill wire and. Everyone has been telling me to try to get spark with kill wire disconnected. I like your advice. Is there a way to test the one on there?


#7

J

jd 300

The little silver square chip is on my 14 hp kaw engine john deere which is over 20 years old.I looked your engine up at the kaw site and it has a igniter module look for it. part number 21119-2101 igniter. BOUGHT MINE WHEN IT WENT KUPUT ON E-BAY. You would need a good one to see what the difference is with yours.


#8

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

jd 300 said:
The little silver square chip is on my 14 hp kaw engine john deere which is over 20 years old.I looked your engine up at the kaw site and it has a igniter module look for it. part number 21119-2101 igniter.
Click to expand...
I see Am132770. Which says it fits F510. Looks like mine.


#9

R

Rivets

You were told that because you never told us what engine you had.


#10

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp said:
I see Am132770. Which says it fits F510. Looks like mine.
Click to expand...
Flound it with your number for $14.00.


#11

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp said:
Flound it with your number for $14.00.
Click to expand...
I obviously will have to have the kill wire connected to the coil for this part to work.


#12

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

Rivets said:
You were told that because you never told us what engine you had.
Click to expand...
Ok. Not sure what you mean. Did you see the post of my engine number. What would you recommend I try next. It’s a Kawa PA 420A


#13

R

Rivets

Yes, you posted the engine numbers after I posted my recommendation. I don’t see where anyone told you to disconnect the kill wire, I sure didn’t.


#14

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

Rivets said:
Yes, you posted the engine numbers after I posted my recommendation. I don’t see where anyone told you to disconnect the kill wire, I sure didn’t.
Click to expand...
Ok. I have tried it both ways and no spark. Do you know what else I should try?


#15

R

Rivets

PA420A does not come up as a good number. Everything I find says your unit will have a Kawasaki model F420C engine. Here is the service manual for that engine. Maybe this will help you. https://www.mymowerparts.com/pdf/Ka...20V-FC540V-KAWASAKI-SERVICE-REPAIR-MANUAL.pdf


#16

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

Rivets said:
PA420A does not come up as a good number. Everything I find says your unit will have a Kawasaki model F420C engine. Here is the service manual for that engine. Maybe this will help you. https://www.mymowerparts.com/pdf/Ka...20V-FC540V-KAWASAKI-SERVICE-REPAIR-MANUAL.pdf
Click to expand...
I looked that service manual over and I’m pretty sure that is not my engine. I only have one coil and that one has two coils. This is a John Deere F510 with a Kawasaki PA 420A engine.


#17

B

bertsmobile1

Ok,
I did some digging and the PA420A engine was fitted to the JD F510 mower
The PA420A engine is fitted with an external trigger module , called an Igniter for some stupid reason known only to Kawasaki

Now magneto ignitions theory 101
When a magnet approaches a coil it will generate a voltage in that coil.
then as the magnet departs in will generate another voltage with the opposite polarity
Depending upon which way the maget is fitted or the coil is would will determine if you get a posative pules first followed by a neagative one or visa versa
To make a spark you have to suddenly collapse a flux field within a coil by grounding it. at its highest voltage ( remember it is AC so it can be + or - volts ).
To prevent any spark being generated by the coil it gets grounded all the time.
Decades ago this was done with a set of points that grounded the primary winding plus a switch running in parallel with the points .
Points do not care weather they are working on the + pulse or the - pulse .
In 1966 a clever Hungarian immigrant living in OZ worked out he could replace the troublesome points with a solid state trigger using the rising voltage in the coil to cause the coil to ground at the right time.
This was called the Hall effect trigger and was marketed by them as the Atom ignition module. A stand alone solid state device that you simply replaced the points with.
However this device IS POLARITY SENSITIVE .
After patient had expired so they would not have to pay the 50¢ royalty every engine maker that had not already switched to solid state ignition did so by fitting their own module.
Then the engine makers realized that they could incorperate this trigger chip within the coil and charge a small fortune for them.

Now your engine originally had a stand alone trigger ( igniter ) module with a plain coil.
So to work it has to be used with a plain coil not a latter one with a module included .
I fear that your problem is you have non compatiable magneto parts or a dead igniter module that you are yet to locate

So follow the kill wire it should connect to the igniter module and it has to be there some where unless the coil has been upgraded to one with an inbuilt module.

You might find this Video form Taryl Fixes all helpful.
Note to work you have to install the coil upside down to get to polarity of the generated voltage correct for the module to work
Kawasaki igniter coil ignition modification.


#18

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

bertsmobile1 said:
Ok,
I did some digging and the PA420A engine was fitted to the JD F510 mower
The PA420A engine is fitted with an external trigger module , called an Igniter for some stupid reason known only to Kawasaki

Now magneto ignitions theory 101
When a magnet approaches a coil it will generate a voltage in that coil.
then as the magnet departs in will generate another voltage with the opposite polarity
Depending upon which way the maget is fitted or the coil is would will determine if you get a posative pules first followed by a neagative one or visa versa
To make a spark you have to suddenly collapse a flux field within a coil by grounding it. at its highest voltage ( remember it is AC so it can be + or - volts ).
To prevent any spark being generated by the coil it gets grounded all the time.
Decades ago this was done with a set of points that grounded the primary winding plus a switch running in parallel with the points .
Points do not care weather they are working on the + pulse or the - pulse .
In 1966 a clever Hungarian immigrant living in OZ worked out he could replace the troublesome points with a solid state trigger using the rising voltage in the coil to cause the coil to ground at the right time.
This was called the Hall effect trigger and was marketed by them as the Atom ignition module. A stand alone solid state device that you simply replaced the points with.
However this device IS POLARITY SENSITIVE .
After patient had expired so they would not have to pay the 50¢ royalty every engine maker that had not already switched to solid state ignition did so by fitting their own module.
Then the engine makers realized that they could incorperate this trigger chip within the coil and charge a small fortune for them.

Now your engine originally had a stand alone trigger ( igniter ) module with a plain coil.
So to work it has to be used with a plain coil not a latter one with a module included .
I fear that your problem is you have non compatiable magneto parts or a dead igniter module that you are yet to locate

So follow the kill wire it should connect to the igniter module and it has to be there some where unless the coil has been upgraded to one with an inbuilt module.

You might find this Video form Taryl Fixes all helpful.
Note to work you have to install the coil upside down to get to polarity of the generated voltage correct for the module to work
Kawasaki igniter coil ignition modification.
Click to expand...
Very interesting post. I was able to locate the little silver box and JD gave me the part Number to order a new one. Only $10.00. It would be fantastic if this finally solved my problem. You are very knowledgeable and I sure appreciate your insightful help.


#19

I

ILENGINE

bertsmobile1 said:
Ok,
I did some digging and the PA420A engine was fitted to the JD F510 mower
The PA420A engine is fitted with an external trigger module , called an Igniter for some stupid reason known only to Kawasaki
Click to expand...
think of the igniter as a ECU and the phaser as a trigger coil like was would be used on motorcycles and ATV's used with a normal powered coil.


#20

B

bertsmobile1

I was a partner in a domestic courier business.
Atom industries were one of our customers.
I like to know who I work for & what they do.
made the job a lot more interesting than treating every customer job as a snatch & run.


#21

R

Rivets

Smarter than me, as I couldn’t even find a PA420A engine. Most be getting old.


#22

B

bertsmobile1

Could not find it through the Kawasaki portal but was there in the JD portal.
Guess it is a unique number for JD so one can not use generic Kawasaki parts.
Now experienced enough with the big K to know if it is just a different name or not.


#23

R

Rivets

Can’t get into JD portal from home, so that makes sense. Wish the OP would under stand he needs to help us by posting all numbers, decal numbers from the frame would have allowed me to get in the back door. Oh well, have a good Easter.


#24

B

bertsmobile1

Kawasaki comes through one of my wholesalers web site.
Downs side of that is after 1/2 hour of no activity the wholesalers site tosses me out so I have to start from scratch again.
The JD portal is access in a similar mannar except it is unintentional and will eventually get closed out but while the sun is shining I will make hay .


#25

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

bertsmobile1 said:
Ok,
I did some digging and the PA420A engine was fitted to the JD F510 mower
The PA420A engine is fitted with an external trigger module , called an Igniter for some stupid reason known only to Kawasaki

Now magneto ignitions theory 101
When a magnet approaches a coil it will generate a voltage in that coil.
then as the magnet departs in will generate another voltage with the opposite polarity
Depending upon which way the maget is fitted or the coil is would will determine if you get a posative pules first followed by a neagative one or visa versa
To make a spark you have to suddenly collapse a flux field within a coil by grounding it. at its highest voltage ( remember it is AC so it can be + or - volts ).
To prevent any spark being generated by the coil it gets grounded all the time.
Decades ago this was done with a set of points that grounded the primary winding plus a switch running in parallel with the points .
Points do not care weather they are working on the + pulse or the - pulse .
In 1966 a clever Hungarian immigrant living in OZ worked out he could replace the troublesome points with a solid state trigger using the rising voltage in the coil to cause the coil to ground at the right time.
This was called the Hall effect trigger and was marketed by them as the Atom ignition module. A stand alone solid state device that you simply replaced the points with.
However this device IS POLARITY SENSITIVE .
After patient had expired so they would not have to pay the 50¢ royalty every engine maker that had not already switched to solid state ignition did so by fitting their own module.
Then the engine makers realized that they could incorperate this trigger chip within the coil and charge a small fortune for them.

Now your engine originally had a stand alone trigger ( igniter ) module with a plain coil.
So to work it has to be used with a plain coil not a latter one with a module included .
I fear that your problem is you have non compatiable magneto parts or a dead igniter module that you are yet to locate

So follow the kill wire it should connect to the igniter module and it has to be there some where unless the coil has been upgraded to one with an inbuilt module.

You might find this Video form Taryl Fixes all helpful.
Note to work you have to install the coil upside down to get to polarity of the generated voltage correct for the module to work
Kawasaki igniter coil ignition modification.
Click to expand...
Well I got the new ignition igniter installed and I still don’t have spark.tried it with the new coil and even with the old one. Checked wiring over that it attaches to and do not see any breaks. There is this little plastic cylinder on the wire and I can’t tell why it is there or what is inside it. I will try to post a pic of it.

Attachments





#26

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp said:
Well I got the new ignition igniter installed and I still don’t have spark.tried it with the new coil and even with the old one. Checked wiring over that it attaches to and do not see any breaks. There is this little plastic cylinder on the wire and I can’t tell why it is there or what is inside it. I will try to post a pic of it.
Click to expand...
I put a wire to jump around the plastic thing and that did not help. Here is a kind of curious thing. I can pull up on the pto button and still get the mower to crank. I don’t remember being able to do this before. I thought that having the pto engaged acted like a kill switch in the past. I could really use some help from you experts to solve this for me. Hate to give up on this mower after all these years.


#27

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp said:
I put a wire to jump around the plastic thing and that did not help. Here is a kind of curious thing. I can pull up on the pto button and still get the mower to crank. I don’t remember being able to do this before. I thought that having the pto engaged acted like a kill switch in the past. I could really use some help from you experts to solve this for me. Hate to give up on this mower after all these years.
Click to expand...
The other thing I changed on this mower is a new ignition switch. I have to use a extra toggle switch with my ignition switch to connect two of the poles together so that it will crank. I have been using it this way for ten years or so. Just makes me wonder if that caused something else to go wrong. I have looked at the four fuses on the mower and they look fine. But if it’s cranking fast would any of this matter? Doesn’t this boil down to a coil and a spark plug along with the ignition igniter? Should I try ordering another OEM coil , maybe a John Deere one ?


#28

B

bertsmobile1

Yes if you can crank with the PTO engaged the switch or the wiring is a problem.
The PTO also has a magneto kill wire as part of it so it may have been the PTO switch all along.
Advising how to test this over the web will be a problem as there are several ways it could be wired.
Usually the kill wire wold go to the ignition module but some mowers have it spliced into the loom and others have 2 terminals on the module itself.


#29

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

bertsmobile1 said:
Yes if you can crank with the PTO engaged the switch or the wiring is a problem.
The PTO also has a magneto kill wire as part of it so it may have been the PTO switch all along.
Advising how to test this over the web will be a problem as there are several ways it could be wired.
Usually the kill wire wold go to the ignition module but some mowers have it spliced into the loom and others have 2 terminals on the module itself.
Click to expand...
. Thanks for your response.
Should I try disconnecting the pro switch and cranking to see if I have a spark.


#30

B

bertsmobile1

You can not do that because the PTO switch is part of the cranking circuit as well so you can not crank the engine with the blades engaged.
That is why there are 5 to 7 wires on the plug.
JD generally uses a relay to fire the starting solenoid
One st of safety switches is connected to the negative trigger and the others are connected to the posititive trigger so both have to be in the right place before the engine will crank.


#31

StarTech

StarTech

Okay try unplugging the connector circled in the following diagram. It is the magneto kill wire. If your engine should start you either need to run it out fuel, pull the plug wire, or choke it to death. It does run then you a problem in the kill circuit.
JD F510 Ignition.png


#32

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

Can I disconnect that and see if I have spark by grounding the end of the plug? Like I have been doing.


#33

StarTech

StarTech

Yes as long as the ignitor is still plugged in.


#34

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

StarTech said:
Yes as long as the ignitor is still plugged in.
Click to expand...
Ok I finally had the chance to try your last advice on disconnecting that wire. Didn’t get a spark. Before I tried it I looked and the mower was definitely not engaged. But in case the pto thought it was I also tried unplugging it. Didn’t help either. Any other suggestions? Another man said I should check the shear pin , but I don’t think that it could be broken because it is not a direct drive being a front mower. And I don’t remember hitting anything with the mower that would have caused that. Could it still be a faulty coil? Any help you might have or suggestions would really be appreciated as I’m about to give up.


#35

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

StarTech said:
Yes as long as the ignitor is still plugged in.
Click to expand...
Any more advise on this. Still no spark.


#36

StarTech

StarTech

Even though you have the unitized PA420 the follow for the FC420V ignition should be the same resistance check for the ignition modules.
KAW FC420 Ignition checks.JPG


#37

ReallyneedHelp

ReallyneedHelp

StarTech said:
Even though you have the unitized PA420 the follow for the FC420V ignition should be the same resistance check for the ignition modules.
View attachment 51687
Click to expand...
Sorry that is over my head. I don’t know what to do with that information


#38

StarTech

StarTech

Oh I see the rest of the info didn't post. May be this is more your speed as it is more related to the problem.
FC420 Ingition 2 resistance checks.JPG


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