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Hello,

I am looking to buy a new zero turn lawn mower and there is two model who intereste me. I never owned one before.

I need your help to make the best purchase.

Which one would you recommend between John Deere and Toro ?


John Deere Z245 48"
- 23HP Briggs & Stratton
- 2-years/120 hours Limited Warranty

OR

TORO SS5060 50"
- 24HP Kawasaki V-Twin
- 3-years warranty


Thanks for your help.

Toro represents a great value! We have a 1HP more powerful Kawasaki engine, a 2 larger deck, and a 3-year warranty. We also have several features the competitive mower does not: Smart Speed control system for smooth, precise control when trim work needs to be done around obstacles, an 18 extra-tall contoured seat for premium comfort vs. a 15 seat, an automatic parking break that automatically engages so you don't have to remember or find a separate parking brake lever. The warranty is also unlimited hours.

We encourage you to find a dealer who will let you drive each model, and hopefully, the Toro TimeCutter SS advantages will become apparent!

Just looking at the specs ... I have to agree with Toro, and like he said try a test drive and see how things compare... IF you do get to do that .. Please post back with your findings... :smile:KennyV

Z445


About another model, the John Deere Z445 which i was sure that come with a 27HP Kawasaki but there is an error on JD website. The Z445 come with a 27HP Briggs & Stratton ELS (Extended Life Serie)

The JD rep said to me that JD stopped using the Kawasaki because it was not well ventilated, air filter misplaced.

What worths the Briggs & Stratton ELS ?

Re: Z445

Waterr said:

About another model, the John Deere Z445 which i was sure that come with a HP Kawasaki but there is an error on JD website. The Z445 come with a 27HP Briggs & Stratton ELS (Extended Life Sere)

The JD rep said to me that JD stopped using the Kawasaki because it was not well ventilated, air filter misplaced.

What worths the Briggs & Straiten ELS ?

Click to expand...

That may be true in Canada but not in USA.
I looked at a new Z 445 with Kawasaki in it this week.

2011 JD Z445


@Black Bart : i have called JD in USA and it is the same engine for USA/Canada

It come with a 27HP John Deere Cyclonic Engine (Briggs & Stratton ELS).

What worth this engine on the 2011 JD Z445 ?

Re: Z445

Black Bart said:

That may be true in Canada but not in USA.
I looked at a new Z 445 with Kawasaki in it this week.

Click to expand...

Then you looked at a leftover 2010. ALL 2011 Z445's have a Briggs ELS Motor. Briggs was given the exclusive contract on the Z series . My JD contact said it came down to the fact that the current kawasaki v twin would not meet new emission specs and Briggs already meets them. Another sell point is the air cleaner and engine layout in the mower. Briggs did an outstanding job with the air filtration and designed the motor specifically for the way it sits in the mower. They (JD) apparently are paying slightly MORE for the Briggs than the Kawasaki.
I've been a Kawasaki fan for years, my ancient Kawi powered lx178 is indestructible (well the motor is , the rest of the tractor is another story) ...however , Briggs apparently has made significant strides. After hearing it run (This is no 1980's Briggs!) , testing it under load and listening to the pros and cons I bought 2 new Z445's today. I'm very happy with my purchase(s)

I too, have been looking at the 445. My local dealer had a model from last year with the Kawi in it, and also new ones from this year. The other difference was the 2800 transmission this year versus the Parker drives ( i believe ) last year. I'm most interested in the mulching feature. I have a JD LT160 with the 42" Freedom deck now, and have been very satisfied with the mulching of this deck. But......I want to get in on the fun of a ZT like my neighbours, and finish my lawn in record time if you know what i mean. Thanks for any input.

Hi OP,

I bought a ss5060 about 3 weeks ago and have mowed with it 3 times. Here is my view:

Pros:

1. I put the recycler kit on myself. Removing the deck is easy, although it is heavy and bulky. Adding the recycler kit is a 30 minute job, good instructions.
2. Lots of power out of that Kawasaki engine, I burned about 2.5 gallons on mowing the total 4 acres I have mowed.
3. Nice smooth cut, even mowing diagonal on a 10 degree slope.
4. Comfortable seat and I adjusted levers for comfortable position.
5. Speed control is real nice, can set for slow range for around fences, edging, etc and high speed for open turf. It's a nice blend of control for tight spots and pure mowing speed.

Cons:

1. The engine is louder than my old mower (JD L130 with 23HP Kohler under front hood).
2. The right rear storage bin is hard to reach (a minor deal)
3. The front wheels had bushings in them, I replaced the bushings with ball bearings ($26 and an hour).
4. The manual is pretty well written, would be much better if is listed required tools for each section.

I like mine, this is more a first glimpse and not a readout on reliability.

cheers,
heathtx

One additional thing about the Toro.....

I just changed the engine oil after 7 hours. Changing the oil is a bit of a PITA.

You must:

1. make a small plastic catch cup to place under the filter drain ledge. Not hard, but keep engine shelf clean
2. Make sure your filter wrench adapter will grab the dimpled end of the filter. There is no room to use the band type filter wrench.

Good thing I don't have do do this until 200 hours total again.........

Still, it's a great mower!

I just finished shopping for a new mower, and while looking at John Deeres at my local dealer, I was told that the JD200 series ( 225 and 245 ) which Lowes sells are light duty. The 445 , which is sold only by dealers has a stronger drive train and deck and has a better warranty.

What -I- learned the hard way:

I would never buy another Exmark product

But more importantly I would never buy a zt again-for someone who is coming from a lt/gt they look neat and the first few times they 'appear' to be alot faster or they are faster until you take a good look at your lawn and it suddenly dawns on you that you cannot make a zero turn on turf without damaging it, NO ONE can make a zt on grass without damaging it.

Yes the zt, or the more commercial zt mowers do have incredible forward speeds but the rapid miles per hour are useless unless one is on a 5 star golfcourse green-or unless one is fortunate enough to have a chiropractor in the family or as a good friend; for the average home turf conditions you will find yourself mowing at reduced lawn tractor speeds AND you will quickly discover that turning a tractor of whatever turning radius is no more time consuming than making three point turns on your smurfy new zt.

The ONLY area one will truly benefit from a zero turn is if you have an incredible number of 'gotta go arounds' in your yard, but it would have to be an awful lot of obstacles.

Lastly, I believe that Briggs has, on their website, a real good blurb on why the zt application is such a hostile one for any engine, and why they went to the 'new' cyclonic air filtration. But even the Deere spec ELS with the neat oil cooler and funky 'cyclonic' filter is still a Briggs. The ELS or 'Professional' is an Intek-ask the dealer to see the manuals and it is listed plainly as such. BUT in fairness to Briggs, while I will never every own another, many tens of thousands of other owners would.

Just one guys opinions.

Sure wish I would have seen all those Cub Cadet pictures on that web site BEFORE I went the Exmark zt route-a horizontal Kohler Command out of 'harms' way up front UNDER the hood, drive shaft, monster cast iron drive, six quarts of juice, with external spin on hydro filter, real bolted on rear wheels----

And think about this, just what good are cup holders on a zero turn?

For me, buying a zero turn; in the end, made zero sense.

robert said:

What -I- learned the hard way:

I would never buy another Exmark product

But more importantly I would never buy a zt again-for someone who is coming from a lt/gt they look neat and the first few times they 'appear' to be alot faster or they are faster until you take a good look at your lawn and it suddenly dawns on you that you cannot make a zero turn on turf without damaging it, NO ONE can make a zt on grass without damaging it.Yes the zt, or the more commercial zt mowers do have incredible forward speeds but the rapid miles per hour are useless unless one is on a 5 star golfcourse green-or unless one is fortunate enough to have a chiropractor in the family or as a good friend; for the average home turf conditions you will find yourself mowing at reduced lawn tractor speeds AND you will quickly discover that turning a tractor of whatever turning radius is no more time consuming than making three point turns on your smurfy new zt.

The ONLY area one will truly benefit from a zero turn is if you have an incredible number of 'gotta go arounds' in your yard, but it would have to be an awful lot of obstacles.

Lastly, I believe that Briggs has, on their website, a real good blurb on why the zt application is such a hostile one for any engine, and why they went to the 'new' cyclonic air filtration on the Deere spec ELS which even with the neat oil cooler and funky 'cyclonic' filter because a Briggs ELS or Briggs 'Professional' is an Intek-ask the dealer to see the manuals and it is listed plainly as such. BUT in fairness to Briggs, while I will never every own another, many tens of thousands of other owners would.

Just one guys opinions.

Sure wish I would have seen all those Cub Cadet pictures on that web site BEFORE I went the Exmark zt route-a horizontal Kohler Command out of 'harms' way up front UNDER the hood, drive shaft, monster cast iron drive, six quarts of juice, with external spin on hydro filter, real bolted on rear wheels----

And think about this, just what good are cup holders on a zero turn?

For me, buying a zero turn; in the end, made zero sense.

Click to expand...

Robert just because you can not turn a ZTR without making divots does not mean others can not.
The real problem is with the operator not the machine.

That may be one of the advantages of a tractor is very little skill involved in operating it.
Other than requiring a small degree of skill to operate it the ZTR is a much better mower for cutting grass now for other uses the tractor has some advantages and that is why I have both types.

I have been mowing with a ZTR for 25 years and have not had all those problems that you had in the few weeks that you mowed with one.

Black Bart, well then let me say that while using my Exmark when I zero turn on my lawn the turf gets damaged, when I zero turn on the driveway I can plainly see the rubber marks.
Are you saying that other zt mowers do NOT lock one drive when making a true zero turn?

Remember that by definition a 'zero turn' is being able to turn within the length/dimentions of the wheel base of the piece of equipment, it requires zero additional space-total swing area may be greater but the wheelbase, if I am using the correct terminology, must turn within its own dimention.

robert said:

Black Bart, well then let me say that on my Exmark when I zero turn on my lawn gets damaged, when I zero turn on the driveway I can plainly see the rubber marks.
Are you saying that other zt mowers do NOT lock one drive when making a true zero turn?

Click to expand...

They will lock the wheel if the operator allows it but if you don't want to tear up the grass you must keep the wheels turning.

It is not rocket science just give it a little thought about what you are doing.
I'm sure others with ZTR experience will be along shortly to back me up on this.

Only time I really think about it is in the spring when the ground is really soft and even then I mow without tearing out a blade of grass.

My new EZ Track is easier to drive than my big 725 GH because the GH weighs much more so it becomes critical to NOT allow the tires to stop turning.

Ever hear the saying practice makes perfect.

I have 2 tractors and 2 ZTR mowers and if I had to go down to just one to use for mowing //Rolling/Aeratting/Dethaching/Pulling my sprayer/pulling my granular fertilizer spreader it would be the new ez trak.

Yes the tractor is nicer for pulling all those other things but I only pull them once a year but I mow every week and the EZ Trak is light years ahead of a tractor for mowing.

Believe me Robert I could take that Exmark that you are constantly bitching about and mow your lawn in half the time you can with your tractor and the lawn will look better also. :biggrin:

I have a friend that is a commercial cutter he used Grasshoppers for about 10 years then switched to Exmark and has been using them for about 12 years.

He likes the Exmark better and I have watched him and his employees mowing and it is amazing to watch then mowing at nearly 15mph.

He mows all the malls and commercial places around here and runs the hell out of them 12 hours a day.

I agree it's operator error. You can't expect homeowners who mow an hour or two a week to fully grasp zt. I can do zt without tearing up anything. I run one at work and home.

Just goes to show you can't teach old dogs new tricks.

Here's what i wrote a week or so ago in the John Deere section

"Got a chance to mow last night finally..........I also cut at 3" height, and I have to say I had no issues at all with strips being left or uneven cuts. And I was cutting fast. My only problem was small tears in the turf from not turning properly. Controls not worn in yet, or more likely the friggin operator

I'll go with the operator. Having said that, i had no issues at all. It sounds kinda strange that they cut plastic away. Thats the whole idea of the mulching kit, is the baffle that is placed in there.

Advise if you've had any luck. I'm gonna get a pic of mine, when I get my MoJack tomorrow. I'll post it when i get a chance.

Cheers

tom"

I got my new eXmark 24/50 ZTR Thursday afternoon and used it yesterday. I am very pleased with the way it cut. My yard is covered with Bermuda grass that I seeded in Late April and I cut it without any damage to the new grass. The mower is very responsive and wants to go. I can see where a newby to ZTR.s might take a while to master it. I cut grass at my Church in Clarksville, for about 15 years with a Bobcat 60" ZTR mower, and I had no problems with the eXmark.

Ken

robert There are tens of thousands using ZTR's every wk. With no damage to the grass...
You have actually came across the problem that you were having...
If you need to make an actual Zero turn... Then that's what you want to do... You Do Not want to pivot a turn. A pivot is NOT a zero turn...
To Zero turn left, you Reverse the left drive while rolling the right drive forward. The machine will rotate on it's width... with Less disturbance than any sharp turn on a regular tractor... & you had the perfect spot to practice these type of turns, on concrete where you will see the difference...

It will take a bit of practice to become proficient with a ztr... but the incredible maneuverability in a zero turn is why it is worth the small effort to learn the system...
And like Bart said you have to have both Drive wheels turning when ever you are making a change in direction, this will become a natural adjustment in the controls as you use them...

Your body is also a ztr... if you make all your turns by pivoting on a planted foot, you'll have the same problems, especially if you are wearing shoes with great traction, like golf shoes... you have to learn how to turn whenever you try something different...

The only time I ever do a true pivot turn is with an Ag tractor when doing row crop work... That is at the end of run where I want to turn 180 degrees and offset the width of the tractor.... That is NOT a Zero turn...
Like anything worthwhile there is a bit of a learning curve, You have to regulate the rotational speeds of the two drive wheels in order to vary the direction your traveling, anytime you stop one, and leave the other moving, you will pivot your turn...
When your mowing, A true zero turn is rarely needed.. but when it is , you can not substitute a pivot... :smile:KennyV

KennyV said:

robert There are tens of thousands using ZTR's every wk. With no damage to the grass...
You have actually came across the problem that you were having...
If you need to make an actual Zero turn... Then that's what you want to do... You Do Not want to pivot a turn. A pivot is NOT a zero turn...
To Zero turn left, you Reverse the left drive while rolling the right drive forward. The machine will rotate on it's width... with Less disturbance than any sharp turn on a regular tractor... & you had the perfect spot to practice these type of turns, on concrete where you will see the difference...

It will take a bit of practice to become proficient with a ztr... but the incredible maneuverability in a zero turn is why it is worth the small effort to learn the system...
And like Bart said you have to have both Drive wheels turning when ever you are making a change in direction, this will become a natural adjustment in the controls as you use them...

Your body is also a ztr... if you make all your turns by pivoting on a planted foot, you'll have the same problems, especially if you are wearing shoes with great traction, like golf shoes... you have to learn how to turn whenever you try something different...

The only time I ever do a true pivot turn is with an Ag tractor when doing row crop work... That is at the end of run where I want to turn 180 degrees and offset the width of the tractor.... That is NOT a Zero turn...
Like anything worthwhile there is a bit of a learning curve, You have to regulate the rotational speeds of the two drive wheels in order to vary the direction your traveling, anytime you stop one, and leave the other moving, you will pivot your turn...
When your mowing, A true zero turn is rarely needed.. but when it is , you can not substitute a pivot... :smile:KennyV

Click to expand...

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I am sorry gentlemen but it is impossible to make a zero turn without locking one wheel, and when you lock one wheel, on turf, you will damage the grass, and if you don't like my comments on Exmark don't read them. :cool2:

robert said:

I am sorry gentlemen but it is impossible to make a zero turn without locking one wheel, and when you lock one wheel, on turf, you will damage the grass, and if you don't like my comments on Exmark don't read them. :cool2:

Click to expand...

YEP Robert you are right the problem is the rest of the people in the world is wrong.

What is really sad is the posts you have made to newbies about ZTR's they will not know how Misinformed you are about this and take your advice and that is sad.

After all these people have told you that you are wrong then you come back with a post like this one. No one can help you. As for me I will take your advice and not read your post. CARRY ON.

black bart, I could mow my lawn in half the time it takes you to bi__h about my posts :biggrin:

KennyV said:

robert There are tens of thousands using ZTR's every wk. With no damage to the grass...
You have actually came across the problem that you were having...
If you need to make an actual Zero turn... Then that's what you want to do... You Do Not want to pivot a turn. A pivot is NOT a zero turn...
To Zero turn left, you Reverse the left drive while rolling the right drive forward. The machine will rotate on it's width... with Less disturbance than any sharp turn on a regular tractor... & you had the perfect spot to practice these type of turns, on concrete where you will see the difference...

It will take a bit of practice to become proficient with a ztr... but the incredible maneuverability in a zero turn is why it is worth the small effort to learn the system...
And like Bart said you have to have both Drive wheels turning when ever you are making a change in direction, this will become a natural adjustment in the controls as you use them...

Your body is also a ztr... if you make all your turns by pivoting on a planted foot, you'll have the same problems, especially if you are wearing shoes with great traction, like golf shoes... you have to learn how to turn whenever you try something different...

The only time I ever do a true pivot turn is with an Ag tractor when doing row crop work... That is at the end of run where I want to turn 180 degrees and offset the width of the tractor.... That is NOT a Zero turn...
Like anything worthwhile there is a bit of a learning curve, You have to regulate the rotational speeds of the two drive wheels in order to vary the direction your traveling, anytime you stop one, and leave the other moving, you will pivot your turn...
When your mowing, A true zero turn is rarely needed.. but when it is , you can not substitute a pivot... :smile:KennyV

Click to expand...

Robert,
Dude he's telling you in plain English. What don't you get? Also in my personal zt owner manual it instructs you how to do a true zt using this method.
It's sad when people get stuck in their ways and cannot adapt.

robert said:

I am sorry gentlemen but it is impossible to make a zero turn without locking one wheel, and when you lock one wheel, on turf, you will damage the grass, and if you don't like my comments on Exmark don't read them. :cool2:

Click to expand...

IT is impossible to make a ZTR with one wheel locked... That is a pivot turn. and a pivot will definitely disrupt what ever is under that stopped wheel.

This whole discussion is about ZTR mowers... you have been making pivot turns... I realize you were using a ZTR mower to do that, but that is NOT the way to make a turn.

As for your comments regarding Exmark... ? I can't comment on your experience..
BUT your comment regarding a zero radius turn, that needs a reply... as Bart pointed out, others that want to know about ZRT's need to know why there is a right way and a wrong way to use the steering on a ZTR...

You are wanting to claim that "it is impossible to make a zero turn without locking one wheel"
That is a PIVOT turn, not a ZTR turn... And if you continue doing it wrong, it can NEVER come out right...
and that is okay, so long as you are not trying to tell others that the only way to do something, is the Wrong way to do it...

I know you can drive a screw in with a hammer or a screwdriver. But I would never say you Must use a hammer to drive in a screw... although it would appear to work, it will not be as functional and will most likely damage the contact area ... Use the appropriate tool & learn the appropriate method to use it... :smile:KennyV

Ken, what you and others are saying is that tight turns can be made without much turf damage, which is true, but a zero turn cannot, no way, no how its impossible;

Scag Power Equipment - Frequently Asked Questions

And another is anyone needs one:
sorry I cannot get the link to This Old House to work, they also stated that damage to turf is unavoidable when making zero turns, that the only way to turn without scuffing the grass is to either make a three point turn or make long circular turns-this is exactly what I discovered also.

robert said:

Ken, what you and others are saying is that tight turns can be made without much turf damage, which is true,

Click to expand...

robert like I have already stated... A ZTR is not that frequently made... BUT when done properly will disturb nothing. Even though they are rare, there has to be 100's of thousands made cutting grass all across this country...

I think you may be deliberately avoiding the geometry involved when discussing a true ZTR turn versus a Pivot turn...
I find it hard to believe that you are not capable of grasping this method... and you must be pretending to be this obtuse...
But for those that have the opportunity to try the proper method of turning, from standers to riders... In situations that require a good and fast job... you will find ZTR's...

so I guess you need to keep saying there is no way... while the rest of us keep doing it... Like the song once said... : it must be magic ...:smile:KennyV

Robert: I believe the term " locked wheel " is causing the confusion. When talking about a zero turn, forget about a locked wheel. As KennyV stated, if you want to make a zero turn to the left, bring the left lever all the way back while simultaneously pushing the right lever all the way forward. Neither wheel is stopped ( locked ). Simultaneous lever movement is the key. The left drive wheel will reverse in an arc to the right while the right drive wheel will go forward in an arc to the left. The center of mass of the mower will remain where it was when you initiated the turn and the direction of travel of the mower will have changed 180 degrees. This is a Zero turn.
If you bring the left lever back to the neutral position while simultaneously pushing the right lever all the way forward, the left drive wheel will remain in place while the right drive wheel is pushing forward. When the mower is facing 180 degrees from the original direction of travel it will have moved exactly one mower width to the left. That is a Pivot turn, and since the left wheel is not driving, it will damage whatever is beneath it.

I haven't tried it, but I imagine that if you are going fast in one direction and attempt a zero turn, you will have some skidding and resulting damage to the grass.

Happy cutting,

Cajun Ken

Ken, Scag pretty much is saying the same as I aren't they?

So now I understand about Robert... WOW!

Here, check this out:

How to Make a Proper "Zero" Turn

Black Bart said:

Robert just because you can not turn a ZTR without making divots does not mean others can not.
The real problem is with the operator not the machine.

That may be one of the advantages of a tractor is very little skill involved in operating it.
Other than requiring a small degree of skill to operate it the ZTR is a much better mower for cutting grass now for other uses the tractor has some advantages and that is why I have both types.

I have been mowing with a ZTR for 25 years and have not had all those problems that you had in the few weeks that you mowed with one.

Click to expand...

Agree! If you are ripping your lawn on turns, you are not providing the proper speed to the rear wheels. The inside wheel needs to turn at the correct slow speed while the outside wheel turns at a faster speed. variations between the two will change the radius of the turn. If the inside wheel is to slow it can rip the grass in tight turns. The inside wheel has to turn, but this will also mean that you need to turn the outside wheel even faster to keep the desired radius. Its possible to even cause the inside wheel to run backwards when turning, which will really dig up the lawn! Just need to take it nice and slow to find the right combination of speeds needed for each wheel. The goal is to keep the rear axle perpendicular to the object you are cutting around.

Waterr said:

Hello,

I am looking to buy a new zero turn lawn mower and there is two model who intereste me. I never owned one before.

I need your help to make the best purchase.

Which one would you recommend between John Deere and Toro ?


John Deere Z245 48"
- 23HP Briggs & Stratton
- 2-years/120 hours Limited Warranty

OR

TORO SS5060 50"
- 24HP Kawasaki V-Twin
- 3-years warranty


Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

I cannot seem to find a "Z245" on the John Deere website. I find a Z425 or Z445 with 48" decks. If you want a heavy duty residential ZTR I recommend that you take a look at the Gravely ZT HD. Below is a link to my local dealer showing the models in that series, their specs and their pricing if you care to take a look:

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dae06 said:

Here, check this out:

How to Make a Proper "Zero" Turn

Click to expand...

I have begun using the "3-Point Turn" method and it completely eliminates divots!!!!