Need help bad with Honda 215HXA vibration -New member!

[WmLiedtke]

Gave my father-in-law my prized mower when I bought a home where I needed a rider. Mower is a Honda 215HXA but has no serial # on it anywhere. Metal tag just says 215HXA and below that is says "JH". So I can't advise serial number. Has blade brake, 5HP engine, and Xenoy deck w/ Hydrostatic drive. F-I-L is 83 years old and insists on mowing his yard and FIVE others as they are "OLD people". (he is not!). His son hit buffalo box with mower and thought was that crank was bent. Mower would start, but blades wobbled horribly. They removed blades and clutch hub wobbled badly so they suspected crankshaft. Mower has been sitting for few years and I just bought him a Toro with blade brake, Self-propelled, etc. I decided to bring Honda home and see for myself. Blades were beat up and off mower and when I pulled starter cord, blade brake "hub" wobbled badly. I sensed that crank likely had a stub shaft for mowers with blade brake that might be bent and worth a look anyway. This is best mower I ever owned and Dad was sick about this "gift" being ruined. I pulled very simple blade brake off mower which would still start, but just vibrate badly. Put dial indicator on stub shaft for blade brake (can these be bought separately?) and working with it slowly with small steel mallet, got all wobble out. Had .040" runout when I started, but .000" when I finished. Bought new blades and put everything back together. All it needs is new belt as belt has a break in it now and will likely split in two soon. New belt ordered.

Here is issue-Thanks for staying with me. Start mower and it vibrates BADLY. Engage blade and it is smooth as silk. Release blade clutch and vibrates and makes a sound like blade hitting something, but blade is not turning! Blade clutch is only a 1/2 belt pulley, a metal disk, a concave thin clutch disk, and a thick outer clutch hub that gets bolted through to crankshaft and then blades bolt to it. Not understanding why vibration is only when clutch is disengaged, I removed blades and all blade brake parts. Start mower, and now vibration is gone again. I can tilt mower and see that stub shaft for blade brake is true and engine with nothing on it is smooth as glass. Doubt crank could be anything, but fine. If I re-assemble blade brake and blades, start mower, vibration is back bad unless blades are engaged. Woodruff key is in place. Mowed front yard and pleasure of fine mower was back until I released blade clutch and vibration back. All that happens is hub slides up and down on stub shaft engaging or disengaging clutch. What could case blade brake installed to cause vibration unless new blades are spinning? I am sick!! Sorry to be so long, but wanted to be as complete as possible. I will likely remove blades and see what clutch hub looks like spinning vs. slipping and vibrating deck so bad muffler shroud vibrated itself OFF!

Bill
Portage, IN.

 

[ILENGINE]

The blade clutch may have a bearing in it that is bad, which spins when the clutch is disengaged but locked up when the clutch is engaged.

 

[WmLiedtke]

There is a bearing at very end of blade-clutch assm.- right before bolt that secures everything to crank. That is a great suggestion. I have always been a little weak when it comes to mechanical engineering and bearings. Inner races, outer races, tapered roller, yada yada, but the bearing suggestion is only thing that fits. I just can't get my head around why "loading" that bearing up (which I guess I am doing by engaging clutch) makes a bad bearing vibration-free. I am going to put stuff back little by little and I imagine that with that bearing now way more "in play" in my 58 year-old OCD mind, I will figure it out. My Brother-in-law really took some heat from my father-in-law for hitting the buffalo box that they have mowed-around literally for decades. I drove from Portage, IN. to Plano, IL. to buy a 6-month-old Toro as I respect Dad's knowledge so much as he was a heavy equipment mechanic for 30 years. I trusted that if he said crank was bad, it was and paid $250 for a as-new Toro and got a $120 ticket in the process-1st in 35 years! I knew there was a reason I moved from Illinois(!). Back OT...I took mower home and put new wheels, blades, and belt on old Honda after crank hub was true and mower ran smooth before I but stuff back. Now, I will put $300 more bux into it to prove the motor is fine. Fear you have created now is that it is bottom crank bearing as it has to withstand blows by mallet. Thanks though for your insight.

 

[ILENGINE]

Think of it this way, when the clutch is disengaged the inside of the bearing spins with the crankshaft. When you engage the blade, the clutch causes the outside race of the bearing to spin with the blade, which means that both the inside and outside of the bearing turn with the blade, accessionally stopping the bearing

 

[WmLiedtke]

Think of it this way, when the clutch is disengaged the inside of the bearing spins with the crankshaft. When you engage the blade, the clutch causes the outside race of the bearing to spin with the blade, which means that both the inside and outside of the bearing turn with the blade, accessionally stopping the bearing

Excellent explanation and you make it "visible" in my head! Not to push my luck, but since you obviously know your stuff, would you think it "likely" that I can dismiss the crank bearing and focus attention only on brake/clutch bearing or at least something specific to the clutch assm.? With blades (brand new) not turning there was terrible vibration. As I stated, with blades spinning-all smooth. So, I removed everything from crank hub-removed blades, entire clutch assm., inner hub that also functions to make a surface "Vee" for belt to ride on and started her up- Smooth as silk-really, no vibration at all and I had wife tilt mower while running enough for me to see crank hub, but not starve oil, and it sad no detectable wobble of any kind. Can that eliminate crank bearing or would that still be a possibility as it is smooth only with no load whatsoever? I'm thinking belt is snug and could be pulling crank to side and with belt thrown off when "belt inner-hub" is removed allowing belt to flop off, that might fool me. I so want to believe it is isolated to clutch/bearing! Since not all Hondas with that motor (GXV140 I believe) had a blade clutch, is it a safe assumption that crank actually ends flush with Xenoy deck and units with clutch brake get a reverse thread stub shaft that has slot for woodruff key and that this stub shaft could be removed and replaced had I not been able to tap wobble out of it? Bet it is locktite'd like heck to the crank even though reverse thread should prevent from ever loosening. Can that shaft be bought by itself? I can't find a diagram with part number for that shaft. It seems straight anyway. Back to topic...can I likely rule-out crank bearings based on anything I described to you about operation? May be calling for parts!

 

[ILENGINE]

I believe you can rule out crankshaft bearings as a problem and would focus on the bearing thats in the clutch, I bet it has a rough spot if you turn it by hand, and will feel gritty.

 

[WmLiedtke]

I have one on order. I agree it feels "bumpy" like balls or rollers have a flat spot on them. Made the mistake of taking apart the blade brake fork which released the big spring and has now become a source of contention. The rod that goes through the center of big clutch spring seems to have nothing that keeps it in place. No cotter pin or anything that keeps it centered in the spring and aligned with holes in cup washers. I will know this damn mower well when I am done!

Thanks for all the help!

Bill

 

[ILENGINE]

Had to change all three spindles on a 46" MTD a few years back under warranty, because of a bearing vibration that would make you feet go numb after about 10 minutes.

 

[WmLiedtke]

Interesting, but will (hopefully) not be my issue unless it is blade clutch bearing which is on order. The pin that goes through the main blade clutch spring- does it go through the hole at top such that nothing will hold it there or does the cup washer go on and then top of spring pin go under l -shaped plate at top with just separating force holding it in? It popped apart in my face so fast I never saw what held that spring retaining pin at the top. It must not go down through the hole at top, but go under and top of pin fall in a small pocket?? Iwish I never had taken that spring loose, but new belt must go around it.

 

[ILENGINE]

I was looking at the parts breakdown, and it is about as clear as mud. do you have a parts breakdown to look at, it may help at least as far as order of parts to reassembly.