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Was at the local Menards about an hour ago, picked up a brochure about their lawn care equipment. It states neither horsepower nor torque of the push mower engines, only cc's displacment for gas powered engines, either 139cc or 173cc, and , for the two BRUTE brand mowers, only "premium Briggs and Stratton" no displacement given. The sale flyer that arrived in yesterdays paper from Home Depot has 3 push mowers pictured and described, still no horsepower or torque given. The Sears sale insert, at least, describes one model as 158cc, 5.5 foot pounds gross torque. To those buying a new push mower I advise getting at least 158cc and 5.5 foot ponds torque, the smaller 139cc engines will work pretty hard and a small engine working hard will use as much fuel as a bigger engine running comfortably. All my pushers are at least 173cc and I am very happy with their performance.

Just my biased opinion, once again.

Yes JD,it's kinda hard to figure out this "new"way of rating mowers.good info to know russ

Great advice! I know its only going to get more confusing with hp and all that as these engine emission regulations begin to get enforced and implemented. :confused2:

I found this chart. It is an approximate. Bear in mind that carburation and muffler plays a HUGE role in horsepower. This chart was compiled mainly for push mowers, snowblowers,tillers.

123 cc = 4 hp
179 cc = 5 hp
208 cc = 8 to 9 Gross Torque = 5.5 to 6 hp
277 cc = 11 to 11.5 Gross Torque = 7 to 8 hp
291cc = 9hp
305 cc = 13.5 to 14.5 Gross Torque = 9 to 10 hp
342 cc = 15.5 to 16.5 Gross Torque = 11 to 12 hp
357 cc = 13 hp
420 cc = 13-15 hp

indypower said:

I found this chart. It is an approximate. Bear in mind that carburation and muffler plays a HUGE role in horsepower. This chart was compiled mainly for push mowers, snowblowers,tillers.

123 cc = 4 hp
179 cc = 5 hp
208 cc = 8 to 9 Gross Torque = 5.5 to 6 hp
277 cc = 11 to 11.5 Gross Torque = 7 to 8 hp
291cc = 9hp
305 cc = 13.5 to 14.5 Gross Torque = 9 to 10 hp
342 cc = 15.5 to 16.5 Gross Torque = 11 to 12 hp
357 cc = 13 hp
420 cc = 13-15 hp

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THANK YOU....very useful information...:thumbsup:

jd i don't know if this has anything to do with it or not but a couple years ago there was a major lawsuit filed because the engine manufacture rated the engine hp larger than it really was i know i got a letter about it but i don't remember what all it said now maby they think if they say cc's instead of hp we won't compare.:confused2:

jd335 said:

jd i don't know if this has anything to do with it or not but a couple years ago there was a major lawsuit filed because the engine manufacture rated the engine hp larger than it really was i know i got a letter about it but i don't remember what all it said now maby they think if they say cc's instead of hp we won't compare.:confused2:

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Yeah...I gpt a letter too "Lawnmower Class Action" the lawyers who started it are the only ones who came out ahead.

well that is all ways the case isn't it

Hey if the attorneys were not litigating ... they might try mowing.
And then our fun activity could become over run by incompetent beginners, lets leave them indoors and us outdoors... :smile:KennyV

A little off topic, but many places advertise electric tools as peak horsepower. That is a measure of the maximum toque an electric motor can develop right before it stalls (quits turning) and burns up. Obviously, you can't run a tool like this all day. I suspect a lot of the mowers were rated the same way, they could make the numbers, but at the expense of excessive fuel comsumption, excessive pollution or shortened engine life. Torque is somewhat meaningless, it is a measure of force, not power. I regularly develop 115 ft-lbs of torque when I tighten the lug nuts on my truck, but I don't think I can mow much grass with a torque wrench. Finally, as one of the racing greats (whose name I forget) said, there is no replacement for displacement. So this is good advice, the smallest motor I've got is a Honda 160 cc on my power washer. My new Toro has a Kohler XT-7, which the Kohler website says is 173 cc and 4.8 horsepower. I'll see how it goes when the grass really takes off.

Grass ala Mowed said:

A little off topic, but many places advertise electric tools as peak horsepower. That is a measure of the maximum toque an electric motor can develop right before it stalls (quits turning) and burns up. Obviously, you can't run a tool like this all day. I suspect a lot of the mowers were rated the same way, they could make the numbers, but at the expense of excessive fuel comsumption, excessive pollution or shortened engine life. Torque is somewhat meaningless, it is a measure of force, not power. I regularly develop 115 ft-lbs of torque when I tighten the lug nuts on my truck, but I don't think I can mow much grass with a torque wrench. Finally, as one of the racing greats (whose name I forget) said, there is no replacement for displacement. So this is good advice, the smallest motor I've got is a Honda 160 cc on my power washer. My new Toro has a Kohler XT-7, which the Kohler website says is 173 cc and 4.8 horsepower. I'll see how it goes when the grass really takes off.

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Not off topic at all...my one year old Yardpro (sold at Menards, it's a silver Husqvarna) has that Kohler XT-7 engine...I LOVE the Kohler, most powerful, fuel efficient, oil tight mower engine I have ever used...it cuts like it's well over 173cc, you will be happy with the performance.

You make a good point about torque, how do they measure it on a mower engine? I torque the lugnuts on my GMC to 110 pounds feet...never thought about how that related to a mower engine output.

Great post !!! :thumbsup:

Basically they fit some sort of brake on the engine and try to slow the engine down and measure the force this causes at the end of a known length lever. If the most force an engine can develop at the end of a one foot long lever is 10 pounds, it is developing 10 foot-pounds of torque. Torque times rpm equals horsepower. A diesel engine might only develop 350 horsepower at a maximum rpm of 1800 rpm, but could be north of 1000 foot pounds of torque. A high performance gas engine might make 600 hp at 7000 hp and only 500 foot pounds of torque. The diesel will kick butt in a 30,000 pound truck and the gas engine in a sports car. A lawn mower is closer to the truck in its application, constant heavy load (relative to its size) so torque is theorectically a good measure, but there needs to be some rpm, like I said, it's hard to cut my lawn with my torque wrench, even if I'm developing 15 times the torque of my Toro!

Grass ala Mowed said:

A little off topic, but many places advertise electric tools as peak horsepower. That is a measure of the maximum toque an electric motor can develop right before it stalls (quits turning) and burns up. Obviously, you can't run a tool like this all day. I suspect a lot of the mowers were rated the same way, they could make the numbers, but at the expense of excessive fuel comsumption, excessive pollution or shortened engine life. Torque is somewhat meaningless, it is a measure of force, not power. I regularly develop 115 ft-lbs of torque when I tighten the lug nuts on my truck, but I don't think I can mow much grass with a torque wrench. Finally, as one of the racing greats (whose name I forget) said, there is no replacement for displacement. So this is good advice, the smallest motor I've got is a Honda 160 cc on my power washer. My new Toro has a Kohler XT-7, which the Kohler website says is 173 cc and 4.8 horsepower. I'll see how it goes when the grass really takes off.

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I am often humored by these electric motor ratings. Most 120v appliances are limited to 1500 watts or 15 amps can't remember which. Just really curious how you get enough power out of an appliance with an 18 ga power cord that says it has 6.0 peak hp. What a load of crap.

Grass ala Mowed said:

Basically they fit some sort of brake on the engine and try to slow the engine down and measure the force this causes at the end of a known length lever. If the most force an engine can develop at the end of a one foot long lever is 10 pounds, it is developing 10 foot-pounds of torque. Torque times rpm equals horsepower. A diesel engine might only develop 350 horsepower at a maximum rpm of 1800 rpm, but could be north of 1000 foot pounds of torque. A high performance gas engine might make 600 hp at 7000 hp and only 500 foot pounds of torque. The diesel will kick butt in a 30,000 pound truck and the gas engine in a sports car. A lawn mower is closer to the truck in its application, constant heavy load (relative to its size) so torque is theorectically a good measure, but there needs to be some rpm, like I said, it's hard to cut my lawn with my torque wrench, even if I'm developing 15 times the torque of my Toro!

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Thanks for explanation...but when I think of the amount of force that mower engine can develop at the end of a 22 inch blade (not quite a foot from the center) it's hard to believe they are only rated at about 7 foot pounds max. I read someplace that the impact of getting a hand or foot hit by a spinning mower blade is as much as being hit by a pistol bullet. Don't think I'd want to compare the two first hand...

JDGreen - Thats the speed part. The tip of a 22 inch mower blade will travel 5 3/4 feet per revolution. At 3600 rpm that's 60 revolutions per second or 345 feet/second, which is roughly 235 mph and the blade weighs a lot more than a pistol bullet.

jenkinph - You're right, with no losses, it takes 746 watts to make 1 horsepower. Fifteen amps at 120 volts is 1800 watts or slightly less than 2 1/2 horsepower. It takes a few seconds for most circuit breakers to trip, they usually have an inverse current/time curve, the higher the overload, the quicker the trip. So, for an instant, you can exceed the breaker's trip rating and easily develop over 3 horsepower. If you persist, the breaker trips. If you're on a 20 amp breaker, the motor will burn up and protect the breaker from tripping. (BTW, a new motor for a Craftsman 1 1/2 hp table saw costs roughly $125.)

Grass ala Mowed said:

Torque is somewhat meaningless, it is a measure of force, not power. I regularly develop 115 ft-lbs of torque when I tighten the lug nuts on my truck, but I don't think I can mow much grass with a torque wrench.

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I disagree. Torque is what does the work, not HP. My tractor with 16hp (diesel) has WAY more power than my lawnmower with 20 (gas). It's all about the torque. The diesel puts out about twice the torque of my gas engine. Kinda like the guys that pull a boat with a diesel vs a guy that uses a gas engine. Both can do fine on the flats, but put them in the hills and the diesel will walk away from the gas truck, and get better mileage doing it, because of torque.

If the mower "A" has the same displacement as mower "B" with higher torque, mower "A" will bog down big time as soon as you hit the higher grass with it.

I am somewhat new to this forum, but see some complaining about lawyers making money on the lawsuits, and yet this forum allowed someone else to post, yet another, class action lawsuit about power claims. All this for the grand payout of $35, whoopee

Keep that up and they won't have to worry about claims, except the claim for bankruptcy. It "torques" me to see a lawsuit about a mower engine that's rated 6hp and puts out 5.1. Do these same clowns pull the engine on their cars to do the same?

That's the way to drive even more jobs offshore, sue the few companies left that sell here. I had been wondering why the canadian, Kubota, web site shows way more info, including prices, than the USA site. Most likely they don't want to get sued over some small typo of an error on the specs.

Torque is a measure of force. Horsepower is a measure of work. Horsepower is foot pounds in a given amount of time. Newton figured that a strong horse could raise 550 pounds one foot (550 foot pounds) in one minute. I don't disagree with you, there are two ways to make horsepower, lots of cubic inches and torque or lots of rpm. As I already said, I don't want to go drag racing with a 350 hp, 1000 foot pound diesel nor do I want to pull a semi trailer with a 500 hp 8000 rpm small block chevy. Finally, with the exceptions of gross negligence, lawyers are a waste of whatever. For that matter, so are companies that make extreme claims about their products.

BTW, my work involves large diesel generators, rated around 6000 hp and displacing 1045 cubic inches per cylinder (Colt Peilstick PA6B-16). We're replacing the little ones that only have 645 cubic inches per cylinder (EMD 645-16)!

I have heard the argument FOR the manufacturers was they were either using SAE or net (one is higher), and they had the option of using either.

I guess they lost because they didn't tell anyone which standard they were using, and the conditions........but they probably were just inflating the dam things as well, citing a new magical way of coming up with bigger numbers. Heck the governments (federal, state, and local) do that all the time......how 'bout a class action lawsuit against them?

I am about to buy a mower after using a Craftsman 6.6 hp self-propelled mower for 8 yrs that cost $400. back then. Now, I'm looking at a Troy Bilt that's push only with 5.5 pound torque. I haven't the slightest idea how much power that is, though all 8 reviews were great. Now, I'm confused with the above chart saying this mower has less power than the 4.5 hp one I had 15 yrs ago. At my age 68, I'd like one that's not too hard to push. Wouldn't the lower #s make it a bit lighter? My son refuses to mow every weekend, so I just might do it myself -Think I should I go for it? It's only $200. or bite the bullet for self-propelled?

You can thank a bunch of lawyers in IL and WI for the engine manufacturers not indicating the HP on small engines. All the small engine manufacturers were involved in this suit and Briggs & Stratton payed out 51 million dollars to this suit, they were the biggest. Having been a new Briggs & Stratton engine purchaser several years back I received a notice from the court handling this suit giving me the option to be part of it. Having purchased two engines within the time frame, an 8.5 HP and an 18 HP I was entitled to a wopping $40!!!! I chose to pass on this large amount of cash and not get involved with the nit picking bunch of thieves, the lawyers I mean!!!!!! I've never met a lawyer that admitted that he or she could have been wrong about something!!!!
Check this out
http://www.jsonline.com/business/85489322.html
Mad Mackie in Taxonnecticut

Mr Mackie... I read this a little differently.
"Identical engines were labeled with different horsepower ratings, misleading consumers into believing they were getting more power by purchasing more expensive models, according to one of the lawsuits."

to have the same engine labeled differently and have the purchase price adjusted upwards to me should be considered fraud.

"Sometimes, the same engine was advertised as having different horsepower ratings depending on how it was sold."

I also had recieved a letter, I was never unhappy with the power of any of my briggs engines so I ignored it. What I would question here is... was this a briggs issue or the mower manufacturer issue? It would seem that the individual manufacturers, snapper, toro, mtd, etc... would have had to been part of this and therefore should have shared part of the blame. I mean really how much due diligence would it have taken to see that 2 diff briggs engines had the exact same parts list?

The air intake, exhaust, different accessories and end item manufacturer affect the HP of an engine which is determined at the blade.
Having been in the equipment servicing business (bicycles to jet aircraft) since the 50s, I have seen the lawyers do their thing increasingly as time has passed. Their greed and selfishness is expressed in "consumer protectionism". They have developed a pattern whereby their profits are maximized and their "protection of the consumer" has been minimized to the extent that protecting the consumer is a phrase that they use as a joke meaning that their profits are "looking good" when putting together a case.
I have been in the yacht and aircraft servicing business and I have dealt with folks with above the average means.

by the way I agree with everything said about lawyers...