Export thread

Hello, I'm Steve from Boston. I could really, really use some input on my lawn. I have been working at the strip of grass in front of my house beside the street for several years now, and have done all I can think of to improve it. In 2015, It was originally maybe 5% grass and the rest burnt out or weeds, just horrible. So, I totally overhauled it, scraped the excess soil + leveled it off to counteract the buildup of organic matter that had increased the height far higher than the curb over 100+ years, With it now physically formed properly, I cut it a giant tree root protruding in one area to finalize that part of it. I then brought in a nice compost mix, and spread it all throughout, raking it in thoroughly. Over the next month I worked to add, high quality mostly kentucky blue grass seed, with some fescue incase the bluegrass got knocked back by our summer heat. There is a big norway maple on one side that provides some shade, which is a nice relief for it from direct uv rays. I also added lime(or hardwood ash depending on the year), and Milorganite. I used no chemical fertilizer. The seed all came up great, and looked beautiful.

I thought, great, the soil remediation worked, limed counteracted whatever salt the trucks sprayed during winter+any soil natural acidity, and Milorganite helped with soil enrichment/fertilizer, I'm all set. But... only a week or so later, let's call it late spring/early summer, The lawn, in seemingly random areas, began to go yellow/brown. It became almost, more dry/coarse, changed from that lively soft green grass to something seemingly being drained of it's essence. My reaction that year, 2015, was "it needs water", so I watered it every day. It did not help. I'd say 50% of the front lawn died out this way, and I had to reseed in fall to bring it back; it was very, very disappointing.

2016: The grass came in beautifully in the spring, and.I repeated the same process; Milorganite+pelletized Lime, and once again, it looked beautiful - golf course lawn; thick, lush, deep green. Also once again, the same curse of late spring hit again. Random yellowing, then browning/thinning, then death. I was baffled/disappointed/frustrated. Were there grubs chewing away at it? I dug in random areas, found almost nothing, maybe 1-2 grubs, threw them to the birds. Is there a gas line leak somewhere? The pipes are pretty new, so unlikely, but how can I be sure? All these 'what if' thoughts running through my head. So I did all I could do; let it die off halfway again during summer, reseeded in fall.

2017: Came in great again early/mid spring, but this year I instead of watering consistently, I watered with longer breaks in between, but more deeply, thinking maybe the constant water was causing a fungus or something that was causing this. No difference, same exact problems.

2018: When warmer daytime temps hit along with spring rains, it once again came in great, so I repeated same watering pattern; deeply/thoroughly. This year, though, I used a high quality expensive chemical fertilizer made mainly for lawns, but used it sparingly so as no to burn the lawn, instead of using Milorganite, thinking maybe the soil was just lacking in NPK or some other nutrient. This doesn't seem to make sense logically, since it grows so perfectly in early spring, but I was at a loss at this point. The resuls were exactly the same; lawn did great 'til late spring/early summer, then the seemingly sporadic 50% yellow/brown/burnout. I really don't feel the chem fert "burn" the lawn in traditional means, it died out the same as the other years. I had lost more grass this summer than previous years, so I decided to change my seed entirely to a different brand, type, everything. There was still some bluegrass, but it was more a fescue(TTTF) dominant mix with some perennial ryegrass. This was, like the others, a high quality seed. As with the emerging spring grass, the newly seeded grass in the fall came up beautifully. Early spring and fall seem never to be a problem - the problem starts late spring and ends in fall when temps begin to cool a bit.

2019: Almost an exact repeat this year.

--Now, Present Year/Month--
2020: Another almost exact repeat. I tried to give it "just enough" water. We had great spring rains, it pushed up and filled in so thickly, it looks as if not even crabgrass could get started. Just perfect looking. But now, the same thing is beginning to happen AGAIN. Not everywhere, maybe 20-30% of it so far. It begins with the lawnmower cutting it, and for the first time after maybe 6-8 mows, the tips of the grass are clearly brown, making the grass look brownish. No idea why the lawn mower(Honda twin blade, no bag recycling), is turning tips brown, since it does not do this for the first few early-mid spring cuts. .Then, certain areas began to yellow, become thin, blades lose their tithe, and are seemingly waning away again to brown dead nothing. Right now as I post this(5-30-2020) none of it is dead/brown YET, but it looks like it's par for course again.

I've thought of as many possible things as I could. Even such things as..could the mower be randomly leaking oil/gas over some areas without me knowing? But I've seen/smelt nothing of the sort, nor would it make sense since im meticulous with machine maintenance.
What I'm putting on the lawn is so mild, I just can't picture lime/Milorganite having any kind of negative impact on it.
After trying both watering methods; small amount of water every or every other day, and deep water every 4-6 days. Neither made a difference.
I've even pushed my finger into about 30 different areas all over the lawn, and the soil was damp, so there was certainly available moisture. The grass seems very firmly rooted, too, and the soil type is, to me, ideal. Not a heavy clay, not a light sand; right in between.

The only potential 'negative' I noticed is that when I water, it pools in some areas. I don't know if this is because of the amount of organic materials being shot down into the lawn/soil by the twin blade mulching Honda, which I push rather slowly so it minces everything up very fine, and perhaps the soil can't decompose it all quickly enough, or if the soil - in some areas at least - just can't take that much water that quickly for whatever reason, if it needs a surfactant, or physical aeration, or what.

That is literally the only thing I can come up with. I do not understand, for the life of me, what could be causing this problem, and it's immensely frustrating. There are a couple neighbors who have old, old lawns, do near-nothing to them, and though they don't look as nice in early-mid spring, they don't have this problem, so they transition into summer perfectly and end up looking better, very healthy, all summer long, even if they go dormant due to summer heat, they bounce right back late summer/fall. They are species/cultivars of grass that obviously are acclamated and in harmony/have tolerance to my area. But, like I said, I tried many types of seed, and none seem to work. I've worked on many people's lawns over the years(not professional, but more as an educated amateur), and I've never once seen a problem like this which I can't logically reason through. Some might be thinking "soil test", which I've never had done, but also gives me pause because the lawn grows beautifully in spring and seeds come up beautifully in fall and re-emerge just as nicely in spring, so a nutrients detriment? I just don't know, don't think so, but obviously I can't know for sure. I cut it rather short but not short short, maybe 1.5-2". I one year tried cutting it closet to 2.5", but it seemed not to want to grow that high, and began to flop over when it got close to 2.5". If I recall, the same issues with yellow/browning happened regardless.

Does anyone have ANY input for this? I am completely out of ideas, and exhausted, over this little strip of front lawn. I can't know what's underneath the ground re: pipes, don't realy want to call digsafe or the town and get them to check for leaks, and truly don't think it's something like a leaky gas line. They can usually detect those anyway, and I've had that before @ old house and you could easily smell it; no such smell here. Also, I don't have a sprinkler system, but I water religiously, out there at 5-6 am watering it deeply before heat can evaporate it. In the real real hot days of mid/late summer I'll spritz it mid-day when its scorching, like golf courses do - just for a couple minutes - so the water can wick away the damaging super heat. I mean I've tried everything to keep this grass alive. I might be forgetting something, since this has been a 5 year struggle and there's so much to it, but that's as best as I can sum it up.

ANY advice/input/questions would be highly appreciated; thank you very much.

Here is an example of how it looked early spring after it came in. To me, this looks healthy, starting to bounce back from winter and thicken up.:



It then gets to it's "best" look, around mid-spring, right before late spring, meaning, right before it begins to fade to yellow in certain areas:




I will go out and take pics of the yellowing/thinning tomorrow to give you an idea, but you can imagine it I'm sure.
Once again, any replies of any kind are greatly appreciated, thank you again.

I suspect you are dealing with years and years of salt treatments that leaches into the grass roots with the rain and sprinkling. Maybe having some soil samples taken or you take them as send them in and see what is going on. But I suspect salt leach from the underlying soils and then the annual salt treatment by the city just adds to what is already there.

Like what was said above, get some soil samples asap. Have you aerated at least every other year? Gypsum can help with compacted soil.

Do the other neighbors on your block have this same issue..?
Just wondering if salt is the problem it would be everyone's problem..

gotomow said:

Like what was said above, get some soil samples asap. Have you aerated at least every other year? Gypsum can help with compacted soil.

Click to expand...

No, never aerated, certainly could use it like any lawn to better get oxygen/water down to roots, but I've poked my finger down all over the place and the soil is moist 3"+ down, but yes aerating would benefit, just expensive to rent them so haven't yet. Funny thing is it really isn't compacted. I've poked and prodded it so much with machines/hands/fingers, and it's really a nice consistency, pretty loose for established lawn soil.

4getgto said:

Do the other neighbors on your block have this same issue..?
Just wondering if salt is the problem it would be everyone's problem..

Click to expand...

Surprisingly no, they don't seem to. Theirs just has the normal mid-summer heat induced hibernation, yellows/browns a little, then bounces back in late summer, not having died much if at all and looking green/healthy again. I really feel singled out with his problem. The neighbors established old lawns, looks like mostly KBG mix, just come back naturally, looking worse than mine in spring, but then actually surviving the whole year while mine wilts like a dying flower.

ILENGINE said:

I suspect you are dealing with years and years of salt treatments that leaches into the grass roots with the rain and sprinkling. Maybe having some soil samples taken or you take them as send them in and see what is going on. But I suspect salt leach from the underlying soils and then the annual salt treatment by the city just adds to what is already there.

Click to expand...

Yes, I thought above adding more ash/lime down, just haven't dont anything additional yet. I've never taken a soil sample wouldn't even know where to send to...maybe a local tech agricultural/horticultural school would be able to do it? Or is there an online service?

A theory a friend had was something he experienced in a house he lived in. Grass would come up beautifully green in early spring, then late spring would begin to wane, yellow/brown just like this. He finally figured out, with help from older neighbors, there was bedrock and an old garage fundation maybe 4-5" + beneath the soil, so it would heat up early spring and help the lawn, likea heating pad, but then early summer it would overheat and burn the roots/grass, killing it, and there was nothing he could do about it. Now, my situation is, sidewalk, then lawn, then road. Sidewalk/curb/road are all asphalt, but I don't know, maybe there were granite cobblestones or concrete road/sidewalk down there years ago before I moved in and they paved over it, and it still sits beenath the grass, heating up the roots beyond what they can handle. Now, I've seen no evidence of any of this, but It just got me thinking; and I don't think the asphalt sidewalk/curb/road would have this overheating affect on it. I might poke around the soil with pitchfork or somthing similar to try to see if I can find bedrock/concrete or something else that would hold radiate heat upwards.

Back in the old timey days when I was a kid my dad wanted a nice garden statement in front of our L shaped driveway. For several years he met with frustration about the results. He consulted the local garden society who finally came up with the answer. A layer of hardpan soil, in his case hardpan clay was the culprit. Hardpan soil After removal of the hardpan layer, I remember helping with this, (easy to remember all the shovel time lol) it did pay off.

Plants will do this if they're given too much water.

I'm sorry I have been so busy lately I have not been able to get out and take new photos. I leave when it's dark, and come home when it's dark.
When I got home today, though, I made it a point to check for "heat signatures" with my body over the yellowing areas of the lawn.
I physically felt the area above the yellowing grass in front - both with my hand and by putting my cheek against the lawn, which is how the pros I've heard often do it, and I could feel the heat radiating off of that area - the soil feels very hot, unnaturally hot, and the soil, unlike all the other soil around it where the grass was very green/lush/healthy/soft, this soil was very hard - I think the theory of there being stone/concrete/clay/somethingsimilar underneath those areas might be true. The heat was radiating off the area like it radiates off of your head during a fever or something. It was hot to an extent that I would not think anything could survive, almost as if lava flowed beneath. This might be the answer as to why the grass is dying, at least part of it. My friend, whose friend had this issue with the foundation radiating heat upwards to the soil/lawn, his grass would do phenomenal during early spring due to warmth from below, and since it was still cool outside the grass loved it, but the old concrete garage foundation beneath it heated up so quickly late spring/early summer, the grass just couldn't survive. I'll have to just excavate at least a small 5-10 inch square area and see what's under it. It might be very telling. Either way, there seems to be a definite correlation between the areas of green, soft, lush healthy grass, and the yellowed areas. The soil is vastly different in temp, moisture and hardness in both. Doing my best to juggle real life and keep you guys updated, thank you for bearing with me.

Maybe stick a thermometer in the ground in different area and even compare with some others on the block.
Hey they probably think you're nuts already when they seen you listening to the ground...! ?

4getgto said:

Maybe stick a thermometer in the ground in different area and even compare with some others on the block.
Hey they probably think you're nuts already when they seen you listening to the ground...! ?

Click to expand...

Lmao....they definitely think I'm insane the way I've babied my lawn for the past few years now, but it's truly embarassing when you baby it like I have and it STILL turns yellow/brown/dies, then your 80 yr old neighbor does nothing, puts nothing down, and hers looks perfect. It's maddening, really.

Thermometer is good idea...have to find one. TY

I was also wondering if something like a southern hot-weather grass would do well in those areas, bermuda or bent or something.. I dont have much experience w/those, so no idea how they'd tolerate Boston climate and this warmth on their roots all summer.

motaro38 said:

Lmao....they definitely think I'm insane the way I've babied my lawn for the past few years now, but it's truly embarassing when you baby it like I have and it STILL turns yellow/brown/dies, then your 80 yr old neighbor does nothing, puts nothing down, and hers looks perfect. It's maddening, really.

Thermometer is good idea...have to find one. TY

I was also wondering if something like a southern hot-weather grass would do well in those areas, bermuda or bent or something.. I dont have much experience w/those, so no idea how they'd tolerate Boston climate and this warmth on their roots all summer.

Click to expand...

I'm not thinking a warm weather grass would be your answer in Boston..?
I'm curious what's down under 2-3" . Kinda sounds like someone may have put some &hitty fill in and sprinkled grass seed on top.

4getgto said:

I'm curious what's down under 2-3" . Kinda sounds like someone may have put some &hitty fill in and sprinkled grass seed on top.

Click to expand...

Below lies your answer, 4get.

So, I finally got out to take some photos. I dug up the worst area, in the corner of the lawn where the grass is yellow/brown possibly dead. What I found was basically a healthy 2-3" layer of organic matter that was obviously holding moisture/nutrients, with the roots not pushing much past that, then beneath that, what looked like just contractor fill - light colored dry soil that had many small rocks in it and was on the sandy side, so obviosly not soil that holds moisture/nutrients. I think I would have to amend it by taking out a foot or so of this soil and bringing in some high quality top soil. My theory on a masonry element beath the soil is so far unproven, though I only dug in one area. You'll notice from photos that nearby areas are still green(ish); this is where I brought in top soil/compost to remedy the area due to having to scrape down the high areas from years of buildup from previous owner(s), scraping it lower than level thus having to ultimately level it to the curb/sidewalk by bringing in the topsoil to fill these areas... seemed to make a lasting difference. I'm wondering if I can simply mulch with lawn mower and add milorganite 3-4 times a year to rectify this situation, or if it will take excavation/removal of the poor soil beneath and replacement of it with quality top soil. Anyway, here are the photos; as always, any input appreciated, thanks.

I see roots down into the rubble and doubt that it is the actual problem.
W grow healthy grass in less than 1" of soil over rocks
What I see is compaction and shallow watering.
he other problem is the pH of the rubble comparered top the pH of the soil & the mulch on top of the soil .
IS this compatiable with your grass ?
or is the rubble left overs from construction & contains toxic chemicals like concrete binders ?
I would suggest hiring a deep aerotaters , preffably one that pulls little plugs out of the ground followed by a deep watering to get some water down into that sub soil
IF this makes the dead areas substantially worse by the end of the seasont then you know that sub soil is toxic to your grass & that area probably will need a deep exacvation to remove that rubble.

bertsmobile1 said:

What I see is compaction and shallow watering.

Click to expand...

╪╪ We've tried watering frequently(every day, sometimes more than once) and for 5-10 min, as well as infrequently (every 3-5 days) but deeply, 30-40 min, and neither seemed to make a difference versus the other, but I'm sure helped more than not watering at all.. I also spritz it for 2-3 min around mid-day during the real hot 85º+ days in summer, just to wick the heat away via evaporation, like golf courses do, regardless of the watering method I'm using. I've read that this helps to take the stress away from the grass in hot weather.

bertsmobile1 said:

The other problem is the pH of the rubble compared top the pH of the soil & the mulch on top of the soil. IS this compatible with your grass? Or is the rubble left overs from construction & contains toxic chemicals like concrete binders?

Click to expand...

╪╪ I don't think they contain toxic anything, but I'd have to get it thoroughly tested for that. It's been exposed to the elements for 5+ years, so I'd think the rain/snow/sleet/hail would wash any of that down and out of the area by now right?
╪╪ I don't see much evidence of concrete work on the area. It's really just asphalt and then stone dust/hardpack beneath it. Even the curbstone is asphalt. It does heat up, but nothing I can do about that.
╪╪ Not sure what the PH of the 'quality' soil on top -or- the PH of the 'construction' soil beneath; I simply put pelletized lime or hardwood ash down every spring to bring down the acidity that was thrown onto it by the salt trucks in the winter, + Massachusetts soil tends to be acidic anyway. I've used many different types of seed over past 5 years; different brands of KBG, TTTF, and Perennial Rye. All seem to be effected equally. Never used something elite like Midnight due to these other "big box" purchased grasses getting damaged, didn't want to burn money on expensive elite dwarf KBG cultivars when it might just get eviscerated and be a waste of money.
╪╪ And yes, I saw those little roots going down into the rubble, so I don't think the rubble is toxic to it in any way, but the grass certainly seems to prefer to hang around the upper 2" or so of rich in organic material soil instead of pushing roots down deep into the 'rubble'. If I had known the quality of this construction soil beneath this area, I would have dug it out 10" down and replaced with top soil.
╪╪Even still, and correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't seem like an impossibility to, over time, remediate this soil by continuing to add organic matter to it, and letting the bugs/microbes do the work on the soil beneath, essentially creating 6" or so of my own top soil?

bertsmobile1 said:

I would suggest hiring a deep aerotaters , preffably one that pulls little plugs out of the ground followed by a deep watering to get some water down into that sub soil
IF this makes the dead areas substantially worse by the end of the season then you know that sub soil is toxic to your grass & that area probably will need a deep exacvation to remove that rubble.

Click to expand...

╪╪ Yes, this is a good idea. I used to borrow a friends rental aerator, but he did not rent one this year, and in the past I never aerated this particular part of the property. Unlike my last location, which was heavy clay, this area is the opposite - sandy underneath the 2" of good soil - so I didn't feel I needed to aerate, thinking the oxygen/water would simply flow right down easily. But, what you say makes sense in terms of using the plug aerator and water to detect toxicity. Also, aerating certainly can't hurt, especially if I brought in compost post-aeration and spring raked it into all the plug holes, helping to improve the soil quality at the same time. Might be a good idea to do that during a second aeration, though, if I'm going to use the first aeration to test for toxicity from the construction "rubble" sub-soil. Thank you for the response. Hopefully I interpreted everything you said correctly.

You don't suppose this was the "roll out" grass mat they use as a quick green lawn.? Would kinda explain that it's just in the front that people see when buying a house. Sorta looks like a layer put over the cheap fill.

Down here the slime bag developer trick is to scalp all of the top soil off a building site & sell it
When they have finished they just grade the remaining ground then spray on a mix of grass seeds & fertilizer
This makes for a lush deep green lawn till the house id sold then the first really hot day everything dies.

4getgto said:

You don't suppose this was the "roll out" grass mat they use as a quick green lawn.? Would kinda explain that it's just in the front that people see when buying a house. Sorta looks like a layer put over the cheap fill.

Click to expand...

Could have been, 4get, yes, the initial "lawn" post-flip of house. That or just cheap contractor's seed. But, I've spent 5 years adding topsoil/compost mix, Lasco chem fert one year, Milorganite all other years (4x apps of Milorganite), + top dressing from my father's own leaf/grass compost soil, and mulching at a slow push pace with 21" Honda twin-blade mower. So, I suspect that layer of 2-3" rich blackish soil is from my efforts not theirs.

bertsmobile1 said:

Down here the slime bag developer trick is to scalp all of the top soil off a building site & sell it. When they have finished they just grade the remaining ground then spray on a mix of grass seeds & fertilizer. This makes for a lush deep green lawn till the house id sold then the first really hot day everything dies.

Click to expand...

Certainly sounds like exactly what's happening to me, and would be congruent with the rest of the "work" (hackfest) they did on interior/exterior of house. Mom bought it and knew no better, just got duped by the shiny exterior...until the bathroom/kitchen tiles/grout began to crack due to inadequate support from joists that needed to be sistered and subfloor that needed to be replaced/beefed up/leveled.

Well, good news appears to be that my initial fear/theory of some kind of masonry beneath the soil heating up and killing roots is not the culprit, at least appearedly, if you'd all agree on that. Culprit seems to be inadequate depth of quality loom/organic matter beneath the grass. I can't afford a bobcat to scrap up a foot of soil and bring in new topsoil, so I think I'll have to do with, at some point, maybe late summer/early fall, renting aerator and bring in "black gold" from my dad's compost pile, removing the old plugs and then spring raking in the rich compost into the holes, while continuing to add much Milorganite, watering on a frequent basis, and mulching with lawn mower every mow until the leaves become too thick in the fall, then just repeating this process yearly.

Do you all agree?

Also, do you think switching to chemical fertilizer would remediate this problem? I hate to do it, but chem fert would be quickly absorbed by lawn, and wouldn't require deep, healthy soil.

We've tried watering frequently(every day, sometimes more than once) and for 5-10 min, as well as infrequently (every 3-5 days) but deeply, 30-40 min, and neither seemed to make a difference versus the other, but I'm sure helped more than not watering at all.. I also spritz it for 2-3 min around mid-day during the real hot 85º+ days in summer, just to wick the heat away via evaporation, like golf courses do, regardless of the watering method I'm using. I've read that this helps to take the stress away from the grass in hot weather.

Click to expand...

If I would in your feet, I wouldn't water lawn so often. But actually it depends on situation with weather and precipitations in your area. Usually, when I need to get some useful information about lawn and howto mow it - I visit this resource here ( Lawnista.com ), and I can say for sure that it's one of the most informative websites I could find on the web.

sanchezz02 said:

If I would in your feet, I wouldn't water lawn so often. But actually it depends on situation with weather and precipitations in your area.

Click to expand...

Really? Why not so often? With so little 'top soil', that construction soil underneath dries out real quick. I have tried both watering for long periods but infrequently, and the opposite, which of course is watering frequently but not deeply - didn't notice much difference either way. After this "investigation" and all the good advice from you guys in this thread, I was leaning towards watering more frequently but less deeply since there's not as much "good" soil there to hold the water.