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Engine will die in seconds if the choke is opened completely, cold or warm. New carb, carb shutoff bypassed, new filter, new pump, replace fuel line, new head and manifold gaskets, fresh gas, new spark plug, will only start with full choke even when engine is warm. The guy I bought this cub cadet 2166 from said the unit had only sat for about 6-8 months. (BS for sure). Said there was no spark because the coil was bad. Installed new coil still no spark problem was the SAM which was replaced with a used unit to provide spark. The carb and fuel pump were so rotted they had to be replace, fuel line was cracked and leaking so alot of the repairs were related to just getting to the point where I could try the engine.

This doesn't seem to be the normal not getting fuel problem causing to run lean. Spraying carb cleaner, does not show any air leaks. The choke is only slightly closed, to much and it will also shut down. With the right choke setting it will throttle up and sound normal.

So the question is, What does enriching the fuel/air mixture with the choke overcome to allow it to run?

Scroll down to CV16 click & pull up Service Manual see Section 5.

Thanks for your attention Mark. I do have a service manual and been thro it, sorry is a horizontal shaft, my mistake. I didn’t want to be to detailed originally but let me add this to the mix. I did have a new carb for this engine that was installed after the work in the fuel delivery system before trying to start this engine. When it was first started and run it did not have the choke problem, governor required adjustment, then only ran it long enough to get the mower deck repaired and working and check out the drive, maybe 30min. Next time I started it the choke problem came up. Although the carb at that time was new I did remove and check it out. Looked good but still a problem. Off again and raised the fuel level in the bowl, same results. Thought may have a restriction in the paths under the w plug but purchasing repair parts for the carb was nearly as expensive as as buying a new one. Got the new carb installed and the symptoms were identical. I will check the new carb float level and recheck the governor adjustment but think it’s shot in the dark. I don’t know where else to look in the fuel/air system after that,?????

Post model & serial #'s from mower, mower manufacturer, part number for new carburetor, thanks Mark

Info you requested and an update; Cub Cadet Model 2166 - 13A-214G100, Mfg Code 1B182G30149 Carb PN KH-12-853-93. (I have the carb with the adjustable idle jet) I did check that carb out and found the float level was way low. When the float valve seat was installed into the casting it wasn't pressed in far enough. I pressed it down until the float was parallel to the gasket surface. After re installing the ignition stopped firing before I got the carb full. Seems the battery volts dropped to low during cranking for the SAM to work properly. Been on the charger overnight and I will get a chance to retry later today to see if the carb adjustment helped.

Looks like another problem to chase down with the ignition. Battery is charged, voltage doesn't drop more than a couple volts cranking the engine with the plug out (measured at the battery), should be ok for the SAM. What is interesting though is it will spark once when I first start cranking and no spark during cranking then when I stop cranking most of the time there will be one very weak spark. Guess I will need to check the all the wiring connections.

See page 134 & following in Service Manual. Perform electrical troubleshooting with multimeter per Manual & let us know what you find, thanks Mark

It will be a few days before I get on it but I will. Thx

It rained today so I spend some time poking around in that ignition ckt. I think the page number you referred to is from a manual for a newer model, it referred to the RMC which is not on mine. It has the “Smart Spark” as they refer to it or the SAM module and no RMC unit. My manual only has 116 pages. I went thro most of the procedure in the manual I have, disassembled all the wire harness connectors and terminals to clean, inspected the wiring (did find some mouse teeth marks) and grd connections, but nothing serious. Retested and symptoms were the same, one strong spark when I first crack it over with none during cranking and most often a very weak spark just after I release the starter. Cold checks were a bit concerning when measured with my digital meter so I retested with my analog one as well, (see chart). The test would indicate a bad unit but it is brand new and the symptoms seem to more relate to the SAM than the coil (?) The SAM voltage does remain above the required min (7.2v) for proper operation. The SAM is a used unit but it did run the engine for a short time.

Without any input otherwise, I will order and replace the coil. It’s a bit more of a project with the horiz shaft compared to vert but it's only a fraction of the cost.

When you say you bypassed the carb shutoff are you meaning the solenoid on the carb?

I have received one of those carbs where the fuel seat was not pressed in far enough. I think these are either untested, or failed units they sell. Cost more for them to take the return than to just ship another. I have the same running issue, ( not electrical) on two Kohler single cylinder engines SV590. Either surges badly or runs for short time on 1\2 choke. I have tried all new gaskets, governor adjustment, and valve lash. I'm really interested to see what you come up with here.

I have received one of those carbs where the fuel seat was not pressed in far enough. I think these are either untested, or failed units they sell. Cost more for them to take the return than to just ship another. I have the same running issue, ( not electrical) on two Kohler single cylinder engines SV590. Either surges badly or runs for short time on 1\2 choke. I have tried all new gaskets, governor adjustment, and valve lash. I'm really interested to see what you come up with here.

If that engine have a plastic cam gear, the plastic gear could have slip on the metal shaft and the engine run a bit out of timing. Just an idea!!

That's right, one test I did was remove the rubber stopper, didn't have a bolt short enough to replace the solenoid with. Right now I'm working on the ignition problem waiting for a new coil to get here. Not all that convinced it's the coil even tho it did not cold check properly. Because the spark seems to be time and voltage sensitive it would make more sense if its the replacement SAM module acting up.

Yes I found the seat problem as well and corrected it so the float was parallel, but before I could test with the adjusted carb the ignition died. I' ll get back on it when I get the coil next week.

teseal said:

That's right, one test I did was remove the rubber stopper, didn't have a bolt short enough to replace the solenoid with. Right now I'm working on the ignition problem waiting for a new coil to get here. Not all that convinced it's the coil even tho it did not cold check properly. Because the spark seems to be time and voltage sensitive it would make more sense if its the replacement SAM module acting up.

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After ignition fixed, may want to see if plunger rod partially blocks main jet with rubber stopper removed.

I'll check the rod when I get it to fire. Thx

I have received one of those carbs where the fuel seat was not pressed in far enough. I think these are either untested, or failed units they sell. Cost more for them to take the return than to just ship another. I have the same running issue, ( not electrical) on two Kohler single cylinder engines SV590. Either surges badly or runs for short time on 1\2 choke. I have tried all new gaskets, governor adjustment, and valve lash.

On the anti-fire solenoid, rather than just removing the rubber boot, cut the little shaft close to the body with side cutters. Once everything is running correctly, replace the solenoid if you wish. Not cheap.

Freddie21 said:

I have received one of those carbs where the fuel seat was not pressed in far enough. I think these are either untested, or failed units they sell. Cost more for them to take the return than to just ship another. I have the same running issue, ( not electrical) on two Kohler single cylinder engines SV590. Either surges badly or runs for short time on 1\2 choke. I have tried all new gaskets, governor adjustment, and valve lash. I'm really interested to see what you come up with here.

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jono252525 said:

If that engine have a plastic cam gear, the plastic gear could have slip on the metal shaft and the engine run a bit out of timing. Just an idea!!

Click to expand...

Freddie21 said:

On the anti-fire solenoid, rather than just removing the rubber boot, cut the little shaft close to the body with side cutters. Once everything is running correctly, replace the solenoid if you wish. Not cheap.

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Sounds like a plan, thx.

Received the brand new ignition module today and it cold checks exactly the same as the one that is on the engine, I'll swap them just in case but I guessed not the coil. Believe this engine has the DSAM so when I find and receive one I'll try it and see where we're at. Be advised different meters on different types of active ckts can read different R values even if they are calibrated and zeroed. Good thing I don't need this mower to cut the grass.

teseal said:

Engine will die in seconds if the choke is opened completely, cold or warm. New carb, carb shutoff bypassed, new filter, new pump, replace fuel line, new head and manifold gaskets, fresh gas, new spark plug, will only start with full choke even when engine is warm.

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Sounds like a lack of fuel delivery. OEM carb or Chinese Amazon/Ebay? Was the fuel TANK flushed out? You replaced everything but the tank.

You need to verify you have good fuel flow AT the carb inlet pipe.

Yes it is one of the Ebay carbs and it did have an issue with the float jet but I think I have that taken care of. Before I could try it the ignition failed and that appears to be a problem with the SAM which was replaced earlier with a used unit, didn't get away with that either.
The fuel tank was removed and flushed also fuel flow verified after all the changes with the line disconnected at the carb.
Also the head, actually all the engine fines, were cleaned prior to replacing baffles and blower housing.
I'm looking for a SAM now.
Thx for the info.

slomo said:

Sounds like a lack of fuel delivery. OEM carb or Chinese Amazon/Ebay? Was the fuel TANK flushed out? You replaced everything but the tank.

You need to verify you have good fuel flow AT the carb inlet pipe.

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w

Thought it would be a waste of time swapping coils again but replaced the recently installed new coil with another and now have fire, actually that cd ign supplies a pretty good spark. Anyway still need to run with the choke so neither the ignition nor the fixed carb float level cured the problem. Working with the air filter off while it was running I saw the governor spring vibrating, it was loose. The governor spring ends were twisted like pretzels so there is something wrong with the linkage. I will need to check this out before getting back to the carb. After the spring/linkage or whatever is messed up with the governor i'm not sure where to go with the carb/choke issue. I don't think it is related to whatever is messed up with the governor. The plate that attaches the throttle cable to the spring will not be adjustable enough to take all the slack out of the governor spring once the spring ends are straightened and looped properly. Might have time to look at it today.

teseal said:

The governor spring ends were twisted like pretzels so there is something wrong with the linkage.

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No surprise there. Every used slash new to me mower I get the linkage is all jacked up. Especially on Kawi and Hondu engines for some reason.

I would order all new OEM carb linkage springs for it.

slomo said:

No surprise there. Every used slash new to me mower I get the linkage is all jacked up. Especially on Kawi and Hondu engines for some reason.

I would order all new OEM carb linkage springs for it.

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I straighten and rebent the spring ends, had to move the throttle plate all the way and then set the spring in holes farther apart, no doubt need some tweaking once I can get the engine to run BUT still running lean, needs some choke to keep running. Just to recap in regards to the fuel/lean problem, tank removed and flushed, line replace, filter replace, fuel pump replaced, flow tested with line removed at carb, carb replaced (Ebay), manifold and carb gaskets replaced, leak tested while running with carb cleaner, problems with carb float seat adjusted, disabled solenoid by cutting of shaft, and lots of foul words. Am I wrong too assume it's still the carb? Definity open for suggestions.

One more thing, my apologizes to all - for whatever reason I still call this a CV but it is horizontal.

teseal said:

carb replaced (Ebay)

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That is the only red flag I see.

Do you still have the OEM carb? If so swap the pilot if it has one and main jets into the Chinese Gambler Series carb. Emulsion tube spotless? Swap it into the Epray carb. Do what ever to make it run. As Taryl says its not the space shuttle. You know what it needs, more fuel. Compare main jet hole sizes.......

teseal said:

So the question is, What does enriching the fuel/air mixture with the choke overcome to allow it to run?

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Surging is from a lean condition. Your engine wants more fuel. Engines "prefer" 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. 14.7 parts air to one part fuel for combustion. When you get over 16:1 they can surge and complain.

One more thing, my apologizes to all - for whatever reason I still call this a CV but it is horizontal.

slomo said:

That is the only red flag I see.

Do you still have the OEM carb? If so swap the pilot if it has one and main jets into the Chinese Gambler Series carb. Emulsion tube spotless? Swap it into the Epray carb. Do what ever to make it run. As Taryl says its not the space shuttle. You know what it needs, more fuel. Compare main jet hole sizes.......

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The guy I bought it from said he had cut grass with it 6-8 months prior. The carb was water damaged so bad the throttle plate shaft was rotted off at the bottom, obviously it wasn't used recently. So there are no parts to salvage from the original carb. Also found the fuel pump with its metal valves were corroded. I did yesterday have the original, a Walboro out and compare to the Epray but the original was so corroded it couldn't measure the jet. Without knowing the difference I did ream out the main jet in the Epray but because it even needs choke at idle I also raised the float level. I had the plug off on the side to check those passages which seemed ok, had to use some RTV (temporary patch) to seal so needed to wait for it to cure. I didn't get a chance to try it yesterday but will today.

teseal said:

Without knowing the difference I did ream out the main jet in the Epray but because it even needs choke at idle I also raised the float level.

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Baby steps here....... Both will or should richen it up.

Make sure you have no vacuum leaks ALL around the carb and gaskets. Any intake manifold pipes it may have.

Could buy another Epray carb they are so cheap. Maybe you will get lucky with it. Buy from a different seller. Make sure 100% it is for your engine. Message the seller and ask if it fits yours prior to buying.

I would enrichen the pilot circuit first. Slightly bore out the pilot jet. Pilot screw if it has one. Then if needed raise the float height about 1mm only. Try to get it idling/starting and low revs first. Then if needed hone the main jet out just a touch.

slomo said:

Baby steps here....... Both will or should richen it up.

Make sure you have no vacuum leaks ALL around the carb and gaskets. Any intake manifold pipes it may have.

Could buy another Epray carb they are so cheap. Maybe you will get lucky with it. Buy from a different seller. Make sure 100% it is for your engine. Message the seller and ask if it fits yours prior to buying.

I would enrichen the pilot circuit first. Slightly bore out the pilot jet. Pilot screw if it has one. Then if needed raise the float height about 1mm only. Try to get it idling/starting and low revs first. Then if needed hone the main jet out just a touch.

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Thx for your patience but this thing just keeps beating me up, before the reworked carb got full of gas the ignition stopped firing again, same symptoms; one spark the second I start cranking and sometimes a very weak one after I stop the starter. Though it could be a weak battery this time because of all the cranking its been seeing, it's on the charger now. If a fully charged battery doesn't give me spark I will install one of the CD upgrade ignitions where the one unit replaces both the existing ignition module and DSAM.

When the new carb didn't fix the original problem I had done a leak test with carb cleaner, no luck, gaskets were all replace - head/heat shield, heat shield/manifold, manifold/ carb. At one time I must have had the pilot adj out about ten turns. An air leak is one thing that would affect all the carb ckts tho, I'll give that some more attention.

I see those OEM carbs are pretty expensive but that is an option. THX

Got the new ignition installed and tested the reworked carb (slightly reamed main jet and raised float level) but still running lean, at idle and throttled up. Could it be a valve problem????? The compression was low but wrote it off questioning if it has ACR.

Shot in the dark, do you have the correct spark plugs in her?

When you adjust the pilot screw, does the engine respond in any fashion? Smooth out or start stumbling? Start with screw gently seated then one and a half turns out.

Might need to start all over.

1.Pull the kill wires off the coils. Engine should run and drain the tank dry. If you lack any kind of spark, you have a weak or dead coil. Feel both exhaust pipes for heat or measure with non contact temp gun.

2.Make sure the flywheel key is in mint condition.

3.Buy the OEM carb.

4.Inspect valves. Make sure you are on TDC, compression stroke. Follow your engine manual for more tips.

5.Retorque the head gasket down. You said you put a new head on back on page one. Normally when you pull a head off you need to lap the gasket surface on the block and head.

6.Solid fuel flow AT carb inlet. Drain your entire gas tank into a large glass jar. Make sure you can empty the tank with no issues. Pour it back in and retest. You can filter the fuel with a coffee filter.

7.Carb solenoid plunger bypassed with a bolt with the same threads as solenoid.

8.Hone out the main jet a little more. Carb is like 20 bucks on Epray. Open up ONE hole on the emulsion tube. Try another if still lean.

9.Your coils need to jump a 0.25" gap at minimum. Get an adjustable inline spark tester that you can widen the gap on.

teseal said:

Could it be a valve problem?????

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Pull the head off. With one valve open, place your thumb on the opposite valve and attempt to turn it. Check opposite valve. That is one crude way.

slomo said:

Shot in the dark, do you have the correct spark plugs in her?

When you adjust the pilot screw, does the engine respond in any fashion? Smooth out or start stumbling? Start with screw gently seated then one and a half turns out.

Click to expand...

I did try a different spark plug that came with one of the carbs but I didn't check the manual for the recommended plug, I will now.

Doesn't seem like anything I have done with the carb, pilot screw included, has change how it runs. I have in the past started at one turn out and just kept increasing without effect.

slomo said:

Pull the head off. With one valve open, place your thumb on the opposite valve and attempt to turn it. Check opposite valve. That is one crude way.

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Hmm, not sure what your suggesting, this is OHV they'll both be closed, could you please clarify?

teseal said:

Doesn't seem like anything I have done with the carb, pilot screw included, has change how it runs. I have in the past started at one turn out and just kept increasing without effect.

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Tells me the pilot circuit is clogged and or not working.

teseal said:

Hmm, not sure what your suggesting, this is OHV they'll both be closed, could you please clarify?

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Turn the flywheel until one valve is open. On the closed valve, take your thumb and try to turn the valve face on the valve seat.

slomo said:

Tells me the pilot circuit is clogged and or not working.

Turn the flywheel until one valve is open. On the closed valve, take your thumb and try to turn the valve face on the valve seat.

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Guess that wasn't the best reply regarding the carb, frustration carryover, better would have been no adjustment would allow running without the choke on either carb so I don't believe there is clog. It did responded about the same with 2 separate carbs.

I would like to try your valve test but it is an OHV engine so don't see how that's possible. If seating could be a concern I could take the head off and reseat the valves.

Just a thought, although the fuel pump was tested be free flow at the carb, I wonder if it could have a problem when it's pumping to the carb with the flow restriction and higher pressure? This is a new fuel pump so I wouldn't expect that kind of problem. Not sure what the dead head pressure should be?

slomo said:

Might need to start all over.

1.Pull the kill wires off the coils. Engine should run and drain the tank dry. If you lack any kind of spark, you have a weak or dead coil. Feel both exhaust pipes for heat or measure with non contact temp gun.

2.Make sure the flywheel key is in mint condition.

3.Buy the OEM carb.

4.Inspect valves. Make sure you are on TDC, compression stroke. Follow your engine manual for more tips.

5.Retorque the head gasket down. You said you put a new head on back on page one. Normally when you pull a head off you need to lap the gasket surface on the block and head.

6.Solid fuel flow AT carb inlet. Drain your entire gas tank into a large glass jar. Make sure you can empty the tank with no issues. Pour it back in and retest. You can filter the fuel with a coffee filter.

7.Carb solenoid plunger bypassed with a bolt with the same threads as solenoid.

8.Hone out the main jet a little more. Carb is like 20 bucks on Epray. Open up ONE hole on the emulsion tube. Try another if still lean.

9.Your coils need to jump a 0.25" gap at minimum. Get an adjustable inline spark tester that you can widen the gap on.

Click to expand...

Sorry just first saw this response. 1. - Kill wires pulled, first 2 coils went bad possibly bad SAM, upgraded to new CD ignition system. 2. Have to remove the engine to check, don't feel it's pertinent at this time 3. Carb is on the way 4. May apply after I install new OEM carb. 5. Head gasket was torqued but not lapped, possible after new carb installed. 6.Free flow at the carb was tested after the new fuel pump was installed but not as a long term test. Could setup after new carb installed. 7. didn't have the bolt so I removed the rubber end and cut the shaft off. 8. Not doing any more with these carbs. 9. New ignition does not need to be gapped, actually there is not provision in the mounting holes to allow adjustment.

Well I guess it's not the carb, got the OEM unit today and it did not do any different, in fact it appear I had to hold the choke closed a bit more for it. I also noted sometimes a spit of gas out the carb.

When I removed the spark plug also noted that is was black and carbon coated, engine has only run for minutes since I cleaned it last. Not sure what that says if the plug looks like it's been burning rich, maybe just because it has never warmed up very much.

Of coarse I don't have a leakdown tester but I did jury rig something, pressurizing the cylinder (didn't have a gauge with small enough increments to measure the cylinder pressure) with my air compressor regulator set at 50, and 100' of hose it dropped to about 35. I did not hear air leaking back thro the carb as expected nor thro the exhaust. Seems all the air was back thro the crankcase.

Question: Could bad rings or worn cylinder account for the symptoms where it appears to run lean????

teseal said:

got the OEM unit today and it did not do any different, in fact it appear I had to hold the choke closed a bit more for it.

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Sounds lean again.

teseal said:

I also noted sometimes a spit of gas out the carb.

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Cam issue/timing or some issue in the valve train.

teseal said:

When I removed the spark plug also noted that is was black and carbon coated

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Now we are running rich.

slomo said:

Sounds lean again.

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It does I agree but I think I been barking up the wrong tree, I feel like I'm back to square one with my original question; What does a rich mixture help overcome and allow it to run? Here's one more thing I kind of forgotten about, after the first go around replacing most of the fuel system including the carb the engine did run without a choke for about 30 minutes while I played with it. Next time I tried to start it the present problem became apparent. Shortly after that the ignition failed.

slomo said:

Cam issue/timing or some issue in the valve train.

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Possible valve issue is what brought on the leakdown jury rig test. The manual says these engines all have the auto compression release system, so the 60psi I got for compression would be invalid. The leakdown test I did didn't indicate a valve seating issue but I'm not taking that to the bank either.

slomo said:

Now we are running rich.

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How can the plug say rich and the symptoms say lean?

Guess I really don't know where to turn.

teseal said:

What does a rich mixture help overcome and allow it to run?

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Engines can run rich and still run okay. To a point after that you start fouling plugs and losing power. Too lean makes more HP and runs hotter. 14.7:1 is what they call stoich or optimum/middle range for mpg and clean burning plugs. Most mowers run a tad rich. Most plugs have black on them when you look at them. So there is a range engines can run it and be happy. Call it like 12:1 to 16:1 for example. So many parts air and so many parts fuel.

Leak down test should be done at TDC with the valves closed I think. Haven't done one in a while. Maybe one of the others can chime in here with the exact procedure.

Something is foul with yours. You've done all the basics. Probably time to pull a valve cover and watch the valves move up and down. Both should get pressed down into the block the same amount. Might even get to see the ACR working or not. Pull the plugs and watch the valves move.

Wondering if your cam is suspect??

slomo said:

Engines can run rich and still run okay. To a point after that you start fouling plugs and losing power. Too lean makes more HP and runs hotter. 14.7:1 is what they call stoich or optimum/middle range for mpg and clean burning plugs. Most mowers run a tad rich. Most plugs have black on them when you look at them. So there is a range engines can run it and be happy. Call it like 12:1 to 16:1 for example. So many parts air and so many parts fuel.

Leak down test should be done at TDC with the valves closed I think. Haven't done one in a while. Maybe one of the others can chime in here with the exact procedure.

Something is foul with yours. You've done all the basics. Probably time to pull a valve cover and watch the valves move up and down. Both should get pressed down into the block the same amount. Might even get to see the ACR working or not. Pull the plugs and watch the valves move.

Wondering if your cam is suspect??

Click to expand...

Yeah leakdown at TDC so both valves are closed, didn't have the monitor but at least could listen for air to escape.

I'll could check the valve movement but don't know what to expect with the ACR, I thought it opened the exhaust valve early. (?)

Just monitored, no clue where the valve timing is at but both lifters move the valves the same, .338" travel

With all that's been done with the carb I think it can be eliminated as the culprit.

I would guess the gas "spitting" is for some reason expected on this engine and that's why the air filter assembly includes a "spit cup" as it's called to catch the gas.

I didn't check the flywheel pin suggested earlier because there's alot to disconnect with the horizontal shaft but I will when I remove the engine.

Head is torqued as specified just wasn't honed, not sure of the effect by not doing so, did have a new gasket.

Cam is gear driven so I don't know how the valve timing could be off. I do know both valves were closed at TDC and both lifters are working. Any way to check without major disassembly? ( remember this thing did run for about 30 minutes OK, or let's say at least without choke, I wouldn't say good because it did fluctuate slightly but that may have been related to the goofey generator spring.)

The blacken plug after only firing for a couple of minutes sure is confusing.

Open to any and all suggestions, I'm out of ideas here.

Again I catch myself calling my problem child a CV when in fact it is a CH.

Anyway just wanted to update everyone and many thanks for all the suggestions. Sorry I can’t tell you what it is that does not allow my Kohler CH16 to run without the choke partially on but I can tell you what it wasn’t, also something surprising I had learn. It was not related to anything in the fuel system from the gas tank to the intake manifold.

I didn’t know where to turn with the CH16 so I ended up acquiring a CH13 that hadn’t been used in 3-4 years to replace it. The carb on the 13 was corroded beyond repair and need to be replaced so I took the OEM carb from the 16 and installed it on the 13. The fuel pump when tested free flow at the carb at first didn’t pump because I think the steel gas line portion that passes thro the blower housing was partially plug. Cleaned the steel line and tested, pumped ok free flow at the carb. Seem to run ok once I got it started so I closed it up and tested the tractor. The governor may be a bit slow but otherwise seemed ok, at least it was running without the choke. Next day when I wanted to use it, it started hard and would not run. It would pop off and run for 5 seconds then slowly die. Gas flow? There was particles in the float bowl so I attacked the steel line again. This time installed a filter between the carb and line just in case. Tested but got the same result, would start and run a few seconds then slowly die. The choke did nothing to help it run. Noticed there was no gas in the filter I added by the carb. When the engine was cranking over with the starter some gas trickle thro but once the 13 started the flow stopped, shortly after so did the engine. I replaced the fuel pump with the pump from the CH16, left the filter install just in case, used the tractor all afternoon without a problem.

Lesson learned; free flow test for the fuel pump is not conclusive, once there was a bit of back pressure from the carb the pump stopped. I did disassemble the fuel pump and the valves looked ok.

The CH mechanical fuel pump can be a problem.
Over time the cam lobe that powers it wears round so after a while it can not supply enough fuel for prolonged full speed running
Very deceptive as at cranking speed you get good fuel flow.
From way back when I went mad chasing up an "overheating / electrical " problem that was doing the same to some 2000 series Cubs and found the actual problem was a plug of grass clippings in the fuel tank I learned to check everything.
So when I get a problem like yours I jerry rig an old 1 gallon tank frome a SV Tecumseh, fit inline spark testers then go mow .
Once we got all of the Cubs tanks cleanned they remained relatively trouble free till one would start to miss a bit after running .
One of the fuel pump diaphragms failed so we fitted a new one and I tested the volume pumped at cranking speed and was amazed just how much more the new pump shifted .
so now it is an annual test, time taken to fill a 200 ml cup and as it gets longer & longer I schedule a pupp job and if that does not cure the poor fuel flow then it is a new pump cam job
FWIW it takes the pump3 minutes to fill the 200ml jug ( spark plug removed of course )
From memory ther is a time listed in the Kohler manual .

Good to know, thx much. I will check the manual to see if there is a flow measurement.

One test I wanted to do with the 16 was set up a gravity fuel feed to see if it would run wo choke. Understanding now some of the different pumping capacities, it may have proved or disproved fuel delivery as a problem.

Also just thought the pump actuator spring is a big factor related to engine speed and pump capacity.

THX again.

teseal said:

Engine will die in seconds if the choke is opened completely, cold or warm. New carb, carb shutoff bypassed, new filter, new pump, replace fuel line, new head and manifold gaskets, fresh gas, new spark plug, will only start with full choke even when engine is warm. The guy I bought this cub cadet 2166 from said the unit had only sat for about 6-8 months. (BS for sure). Said there was no spark because the coil was bad. Installed new coil still no spark problem was the SAM which was replaced with a used unit to provide spark. The carb and fuel pump were so rotted they had to be replace, fuel line was cracked and leaking so alot of the repairs were related to just getting to the point where I could try the engine.

This doesn't seem to be the normal not getting fuel problem causing to run lean. Spraying carb cleaner, does not show any air leaks. The choke is only slightly closed, to much and it will also shut down. With the right choke setting it will throttle up and sound normal.

So the question is, What does enriching the fuel/air mixture with the choke overcome to allow it to run?

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In my amateur opinion, I would say the enrichment overcomes a vacuum leak which is adding air to the mixture and making it lean before it enters the engine.
Good luck!