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Kohler Command V-twin. Cranks but no-start.

#1

F

firhill

I have a mid-90's Woods 6200 zero turn that has run fine since I bought it three years ago.
After sitting all winter, it refused to start this spring. I have pretty much run out of ideas as to what to check/replace next.
Symptoms haven't changed from when I started troubleshooting and replacing parts two months ago,.
That is, it will only stay running if I continually spray gas into the carb.
I installed a new carburetor, fuel pump, fuel filter and new fuel lines, including the hose from crankcase to fuel pump.
I primed the pump/filter/lines full of gas all the way to the carb but engine stalls out as it's not drawing fuel from tank.
I removed the fuel pickup from gas tank and tried drawing gas from a bottle while spraying gas into carb to keep motor running and the fuel pump won't suck any gas from bottle either.
I have tightened oil filter and oil fill cap to make sure vacuum/pressure from crankcase (if there) is preserved,
as it appears that maybe none is being created to suck fuel from tank and send it to the carb.
It seems the last thing to check would be to compression test the line from crankcase to fuel pump
but could that even be the issue if the motor runs fine when i feed it gas manually?

Engine is a Kohler Command V-twin with a Keihin 24 053 32 carburetor.

Any suggestions as to my next step would be much appreciated.

Thanks


#2

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

If you disconnect the fuel line between the carb and fuel pump and crank the engine does the fuel pump, pump fuel into a jar or other container. And does the fuel solenoid on the carb click when the key is turned on and off.


#3

F

firhill

ILENGINE said:
If you disconnect the fuel line between the carb and fuel pump and crank the engine does the fuel pump, pump fuel into a jar or other container. And does the fuel solenoid on the carb click when the key is turned on and off.
Click to expand...
No, not getting any fuel from pump when cranking.
I don't hear any clicking and I'm not sure where the fuel solenoid is on the carb. Is that controlled by the electrical wire that I disconnected/reconnected when replacing the carb?
Should I be checking a fuse somewhere since I'm not hearing any click?

Thanks


#4

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

firhill said:
No, not getting any fuel from pump when cranking.
I don't hear any clicking and I'm not sure where the fuel solenoid is on the carb. Is that controlled by the electrical wire that I disconnected/reconnected when replacing the carb?
Should I be checking a fuse somewhere since I'm not hearing any click?

Thanks
Click to expand...
First issue is finding out why there is no fuel coming from the tank. Possibly debris stuck in the pickup tube. And the solenoid is connected to that wire that connected to the bullet connector. There should be battery voltage present with the key both in the start and run key positions, but make sure the other wire with the ring is connected to the top of the carb because it acts as the ground from the fuel solenoid. And checking fuses may not be a bad idea.


#5

F

firhill

ILENGINE said:
First issue is finding out why there is no fuel coming from the tank. Possibly debris stuck in the pickup tube. And the solenoid is connected to that wire that connected to the bullet connector. There should be battery voltage present with the key both in the start and run key positions, but make sure the other wire with the ring is connected to the top of the carb because it acts as the ground from the fuel solenoid. And checking fuses may not be a bad idea.
Click to expand...
The pick-up tube is clear. I blew threw it before trying to draw fuel elsewhere.
I will start by checking the electrical/fuses/connections tomorrow and report back.
I don't recall any wire w/ring to connect on top of carb when I originally disconnected.
Just the single wire w/bullet connector you mentioned.
Thanks


#6

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

That wire I am thinking about may just be on the vertical engines. If you have the metal intake manifold it may not have the grounding wire. If it is plastic there will be a secondary wire that connects to the carb to ground it.


#7

F

firhill

Either way, I should still hear some sort of click from the carb area when I turn key to start/run position..correct?
I will check that first


#8

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

firhill said:
Either way, I should still hear some sort of click from the carb area when I turn key to start/run position..correct?
I will check that first
Click to expand...
Hear the click from the carb, And can also put your hand on the solenoid and feel it click.


#9

A

Auto Doc's

Hi firhill,

You need a 12V test light to check for power to the fuel after-fire solenoid wire, not all of the bowl solenoids click very loudly.

Next verify the lines were connected correctly to the fuel pump. It is easy to get them mixed up.

The line coming from the block to the pump only provides crankcase pulsation from the piston movement when the engine is cranked.

This diagram may help:

www.messicks.com

Woods 6200 Mow`n Machine Parts Diagrams

Woods Parts Catalog Lookup. Buy Woods Parts Online & Save!
www.messicks.com


#10

F

firhill

Thanks for the electrical wiring diagram link. I will go over it later tonight.

I replaced the fuel pump (Aluminum Block type) with one that looks almost identical.
The differences being the in and out connections in relation to the crankcase, carb and fuel in.

As for the actual ports, they are still located in the same 1/3 section of the block itself.
Fuel in on top, fuel out on bottom and line from crankcase to pulse diaphragm is in the middle.
Same as the old pump in that respect.

I will have to go hunt down a test light to check solenoid tomorrow.

Thanks again.


#11

A

Auto Doc's

You can also disconnect the line on the carburetor and place the end of the line in a jar, plastic soda bottle or plastic cup (do not use a Styrofoam cup), then crank the engine to verify it is actually pumping fuel.

Watching the filter while cranking is not reliable, because they do not typically fill up with fuel. Once running at higher RPM, they filter may fill up eventually.

Can you attach a picture of your replacement pump as it is mounted?


#12

F

firhill

Thanks for the electrical wiring diagram link. I will go over it later tonight.

I replaced the fuel pump (Aluminum Block type) with one that looks almost identical.
The differences being the in and out connections in relation to the crankcase, carb and fuel in.

As for the actual ports, they are still located in the same 1/3 section of the block itself.
Fuel in on top, fuel out on bottom and line from crankcase to pulse diaphragm is in the middle.
Same as the old pump in that respect.

I will have to go hunt down a test l


#13

F

firhill

Sorry, I typed the wrong info above re: the fuel pump.

Both the fuel in and fuel out are in the middle portion of the block and the input to diaphragm from crankcase is on top 1/3 section.


#14

F

firhill

Auto Doc's said:
You can also disconnect the line on the carburetor and place the end of the line in a jar, plastic soda bottle or plastic cup (do not use a Styrofoam cup), then crank the engine to verify it is actually pumping fuel.

Watching the filter while cranking is not reliable, because they do not typically fill up with fuel. Once running at higher RPM, they filter may fill up eventually.

Can you attach a picture of your replacement pump as it is mounted?
Click to expand...
I will take and post some pictures of what everything looks like later today.


#15

F

firhill

I checked the bullet connector to the fuel solenoid and it clicks and registers 12v when I turn the key to ON position.
There is another connection on the opposite side of carb where the single wire attaches with a spade connector from above. The wire is green and inside a black sheath and it also changes from zero volts to 12V when key is turned to ON position.
You can see it to the left of carb in attached photos.

In going over the wiring diagram I wondered if the relay in the start circuit would cause a no fuel issue so I took apart the control panel and tried to take a picture or two of what’s in there.

There are four fuses on the side of that panel that are labeled LIGHT -PTO-START-REG and one of three 7.5A fuses is giving me an intermittent reading on the ohmmeter. I can’t tell what spot I pulled from as I took them all out at once. Anyway, I’m not sure if that would even be an issue but I will pick some fuses up later and replace that one.

I’ll attach all the photos I took in the hope there might be something there that will help solve.

Thanks again for all the help from everyone.

ETA……I’m trying to find a way to post the photos I took as I’m being told each of the uploaded IMG files is too large. I’ll keep working at it.


#16

A

Auto Doc's

firhill said:
I checked the bullet connector to the fuel solenoid and it clicks and registers 12v when I turn the key to ON position.
There is another connection on the opposite side of carb where the single wire attaches with a spade connector from above. The wire is green and inside a black sheath and it also changes from zero volts to 12V when key is turned to ON position.
You can see it to the left of carb in attached photos.

In going over the wiring diagram I wondered if the relay in the start circuit would cause a no fuel issue so I took apart the control panel and tried to take a picture or two of what’s in there.

There are four fuses on the side of that panel that are labeled LIGHT -PTO-START-REG and one of three 7.5A fuses is giving me an intermittent reading on the ohmmeter. I can’t tell what spot I pulled from as I took them all out at once. Anyway, I’m not sure if that would even be an issue but I will pick some fuses up later and replace that one.

I’ll attach all the photos I took in the hope there might be something there that will help solve.

Thanks again for all the help from everyone.

ETA……I’m trying to find a way to post the photos I took as I’m being told each of the uploaded IMG files is too large. I’ll keep working at it.
Click to expand...
I think JPEG should work.


#17

F

firhill

I tried cropping the pictures to see if that works.
Hopefully the relevant items are still in photos.

Attachments



















#18

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

firhill said:
I checked the bullet connector to the fuel solenoid and it clicks and registers 12v when I turn the key to ON position.
There is another connection on the opposite side of carb where the single wire attaches with a spade connector from above. The wire is green and inside a black sheath and it also changes from zero volts to 12V when key is turned to ON position.
You can see it to the left of carb in attached photos.
Click to expand...
The green wire is connector to the oil pressure switch. Could have 12 volts with the key on due to it being on the ground side of the oil pressure light. Basically the oil pressure switch provides the ground to turn on the oil pressure light.


#19

F

firhill

ILENGINE said:
The green wire is connector to the oil pressure switch. Could have 12 volts with the key on due to it being on the ground side of the oil pressure light. Basically the oil pressure switch provides the ground to turn on the oil pressure light.
Click to expand...
Doh. I should have known that. Thanks


#20

F

Freddie21

Carb solenoid is not yet the issue. I read it as you have fuel to the pump, but it doesn't get pumped out. I have used a small electric fuel pump in the past and they work great. Not very costly. Just tie into a wire that is always on in the run position, like the fuel solenoid wire. If you replaced the carb, they usually come with new solenoids attached and you just may have to check for 12v being at it. Or take the solenoid off the BOTTOM of the old carb, plug it in and turn on the key. It will show wither you have 12v there.


#21

L

lefty2cox

What's the cap on top of the valve cover? Is it some type of PCV valve? Oil fill? It's on the diagram but not listed. There's also an elbow fitting on the cover shown on the diagram that's not in the PL. Is that where the pulse line hooks up? I apologize but I'm not super familiar with this engine. Would a bad valve cover oring or some other type of air bleed here cause pumping issues?


#22

J

Johner

firhill said:
I have a mid-90's Woods 6200 zero turn that has run fine since I bought it three years ago.
After sitting all winter, it refused to start this spring. I have pretty much run out of ideas as to what to check/replace next.
Symptoms haven't changed from when I started troubleshooting and replacing parts two months ago,.
That is, it will only stay running if I continually spray gas into the carb.
I installed a new carburetor, fuel pump, fuel filter and new fuel lines, including the hose from crankcase to fuel pump.
I primed the pump/filter/lines full of gas all the way to the carb but engine stalls out as it's not drawing fuel from tank.
I removed the fuel pickup from gas tank and tried drawing gas from a bottle while spraying gas into carb to keep motor running and the fuel pump won't suck any gas from bottle either.
I have tightened oil filter and oil fill cap to make sure vacuum/pressure from crankcase (if there) is preserved,
as it appears that maybe none is being created to suck fuel from tank and send it to the carb.
It seems the last thing to check would be to compression test the line from crankcase to fuel pump
but could that even be the issue if the motor runs fine when i feed it gas manually?

Engine is a Kohler Command V-twin with a Keihin 24 053 32 carburetor.

Any suggestions as to my next step would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Click to expand...


#23

J

Johner

Have you checked compression? Have had different motors that would run forcing fuel in the carb. but would not start. Valves could be leaking.


#24

F

firhill

Freddie21 said:
Carb solenoid is not yet the issue. I read it as you have fuel to the pump, but it doesn't get pumped out. I have used a small electric fuel pump in the past and they work great. Not very costly. Just tie into a wire that is always on in the run position, like the fuel solenoid wire. If you replaced the carb, they usually come with new solenoids attached and you just may have to check for 12v being at it. Or take the solenoid off the BOTTOM of the old carb, plug it in and turn on the key. It will show wither you have 12v there.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, new carb came with new fuel solenoid attached.
There is no fuel, other than in the gas tank. No matter what, the fuel is not evenbeing drawn into the the fuel pickup tube in gas tank.
My next attempt will be to fill every line and the fuel pump with gas…
-Tank to Fuel Filter In
-Fuel Filter Out to Fuel Pump In
-Fuel Pump Out to Carb
…..and hope that primes the fuel from tank to carb.

If you’re suggestions of adding a small electric fuel pump is an option I will look into that.

Thanks


#25

F

firhill

Johner said:
Have you checked compression? Have had different motors that would run forcing fuel in the carb. but would not start. Valves could be leaking.
Click to expand...
Yeah...It seems I'm left with this being the issue through the process of elimination.
I made sure oil filter and oil fill cap were tight so no leaks there.
I still haven't checked with compression tester but I don't feel any noticeable suction when I cover the hose from crankcase with my thumb, while cranking engine.

Maybe the small 12v electric pump might solve it?


#26

V

VegetiveSteam

And it probably won't matter at this point as it seems you are not getting any fuel to the carb but remember, you need power to the fuel solenoid with the key in both the run and start positions. On these older units, the run circuit went dead when you turned the key to the start position. So having power with the key in the run position only tells half of the story.


#27

V

VegetiveSteam

firhill said:
I don't feel any noticeable suction when I cover the hose from crankcase with my thumb
Click to expand...
Did you notice any oil in the hose?


#28

F

firhill

VegetiveSteam said:
Did you notice any oil in the hose?
Click to expand...
No oil in the hose from crankcase at all.
i changed it for a new hose as the new fuel pump inlet was in a different spot and hose wouldn’t reach.

i will double check that I get 12v at solenoid when engine is cranking as well as when in start position.
Wont have a chance to check until tomorrow but will post back then.

Thanks


#29

O

outdoorpowermike

You can test the fuel pump. The suck side should have 1- 1/2 neg vacuum. Out side to carb should have 1-1/2 psi. You can check these with old time vacuum gauge. Green reading is push side to carb and red reading is suck side to gas supply. To test for pulse just put vac gauge at pulse outlet, if gauge pulses test good.


#30

O

outdoorpowermike

If these test show positive you have a defective fuel solenoid or fuel clog from fuel supply ( the fuel tank) to the fuel pump.


#31

O

outdoorpowermike

Put vac gauge on suck port, should have -1.5 reading red side, put gauge on push port going to carb should have +1.5 reading green side. Test shows good pump is good. Ck for pulse any movement good. Ck for clog from tank to pump, ck power to carb solenoid and ground.


#32

O

outdoorpowermike

Put vac gauge on suck port, should have -1.5 reading red side, put gauge on push port going to carb should have +1.5 reading green side. Test shows good pump is good. Ck for pulse any movement good. Ck for clog from tank to pump, ck power to carb solenoid and ground.


#33

O

outdoorpowermike

Did my reply happen, having trouble sending info.


#34

F

firhill

outdoorpowermike said:
Put vac gauge on suck port, should have -1.5 reading red side, put gauge on push port going to carb should have +1.5 reading green side. Test shows good pump is good. Ck for pulse any movement good. Ck for clog from tank to pump, ck power to carb solenoid and ground.
Click to expand...
Yes. Your replies are there. Thanks.
Carb solenoid has 12v in run, will check for 12v in start too.
Fuel pump is new
Pickup, filter and all lines are not blocked or clogged in any way.
Thus, I suspect no vacuum from crankcase.

Too hot still, to check. But will post back when I do.


#35

O

outdoorpowermike

Thanks, To hot? Remember that our military folks are wearing a lot of heavy stuff in temps much hotter. That's hot. Just sayin. Please let me know outcome.


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